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**Adam Stacoviak:** What if it changes over the years? He iterates his day-to-day, he can always have the fmt-- |
**Jerod Santo:** I love this - you have a formatter tool for yourself. |
**Linus Lee:** So actually - this is one of the rough edges... Vim's auto-indent strategy doesn't understand Ink syntax, so frequently it'll mess us... And I don't wanna have to manually go and untab and tab all these things, so I just write kind of messy code around the formatter, and it's pristine again. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Linus Lee:** And it helps with all the standards or benefits that apply to code formatters around standard formatting and automating kind of code rewrites and refactors and things like that. I think a lot of them still apply here. So it's a little overkill, but it's actually really, really nice. So there's Ink Fmt...... |
**Jerod Santo:** I think we need to find a way of getting Ink to be an official GitHub-recognized language. I think that would be awesome, wouldn't it? |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah. If you're working at GitHub on the language tooling side and wanna get Ink in, also let me know. That would be fantastic. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think after this show you're gonna have a lot of - maybe not immediate, but ongoing attention... "Hey, I listened to this show. I love your ideas. I know it's open code, but not open to contribution..." Because based at least on Ink, I see a couple of pull requests where you've politely declined i... |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah, which is -- I don't even have a great way of thinking about how I should deal with it, for a lack of a better word. It's kind of my baby, so there's like -- especially for Ink, because I use it personally so much, I wanna kind of keep it the way it is. But I also recognize other people wanting to m... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[24:00\] Andrew Heely, for example, September 3rd last year, did a great write-up as an issue, and was like "Here's some concerns around declares types as a number, and the tilde", and all this different stuff... And your response was like "Hey, that's intended behavior etc. etc. etc." And there's ... |
I think if you were just clear, that's the easiest way, because I think what you're doing is respectable. It's just about the expected behavior when sharing code is that it can be contributed to. But if you're clear that it can't be, or that you're just not as flexible because you have your own specific uses, then it's... |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah, definitely. I think the other thing is - the beauty of open source - you can always fork it. So if you like Ink but you don't like these things, then you can fork Ink and implement these things differently. Actually, Andrew - I've spoken with him a few times and he's built his own Ink interpreter i... |
So yeah, I think the forking model of open source I'm a huge fan of, rather than a lot of governance and decision-making, and things like that. |
**Jerod Santo:** If it's written in Rust, he should call it Rink. |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Or he can write it in F\# and call it Fink. |
**Linus Lee:** So I'm actually -- this is sort of the coming out of this project that I have under works, but I've lately been working on sort of like an Ink 2.0, which fixes essentially every complaint I've ever had about Ink. Not sure if it's ever gonna be super-useful or public or things like that, but I'm just maki... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Linus Lee:** So it's surprisingly hard to find a good name. |
**Break**: \[26:27\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Let's assume there's some FOMO out there. Jerod mentioned non-viable in terms of your language, you'd mentioned as a response with that may be true... And maybe not yet. Maybe at some point it will be. But at least right now, Ink is intended to be a Linus-only language. You're open to hearing ideas,... |
**Linus Lee:** \[28:11\] Yeah, that's a great question. So when I started out building these personal side-projects, that was actually the legitimate concern that I had. I look around and there's all these cool people that are spending their time without working outside of work, building these more legitimate-feeling, ... |
The second realization that I had was there was more than one way to practice software engineering and building things. There's more than one way that programming can be valuable. One of them is to build these kind of large-scale distributed services that work really well at scale. Another way is to just build personal... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, if we're speaking career and if we're talking hiring versus starting something itself, really you're trying to impress somebody that you are worthy of a role, right? And whether you spend your time doing production-scale large data distributed systems, or working on personal projects, I think whe... |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah, it definitely does. It's actually funny, I talk about this with some friends who are more traditionlist from the industry, it's actually very hard to impress people doing the thing that everyone else is doing. It takes a lot more effort. Whereas if you're doing a thing that only a few other people ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[32:02\] You're the purple cow. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] How dare you. |
**Linus Lee:** Explain the purple cow. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Seth Godin wrote a book called Purple Cow, and essentially, it's "Be remarkable." If you're like everybody else, you're invisible. Stand out, be different in those ways. So in a world of cows, using Seth Godin's language at least, his lingo - I didn't make this up, he did... In the world of co... |
**Jerod Santo:** Lots of exceptions in this metaphor... \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The point is, in the world of just cows -- you know what a cow is like... Okay, you find a child that learns animals and sounds. You show them a cow, they're gonna go "Moo", right? |
**Jerod Santo:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** If you show them a purple cow, they may go "Hm, I don't know what to say about that one, because it's purple." |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You know, so - be the purple cow. Stand out. |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah, I like that. I can vibe with that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, you got him. He's on board. \[laughs\] |
**Linus Lee:** Be the purple cow. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, it's true. I mean, if you do the typical path, then you get the typical results, right? And maybe you're after an atypical result. If you want a non-normal life, then you have to take non-normal routes, I think. And it seems like that's what you're doing. I mean, how many people have written thei... |
**Linus Lee:** It is getting easier, and I would like to push more people to do it, because it is a really fun experience. But I've definitely put more time into it. |
**Jerod Santo:** So if you're starting today to write your own language, and someone's like "Alright, I wanna be a purple cow..." I can't believe we're taking this on. "I wanna be like Linus Lee." And just to specify, there's a namespace conflict online... |
**Linus Lee:** \[laughs\] Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** "...and I wanna write my own programming language." How would you advise them to start today? Where would they go? Who would they learn from? Would they just fork Ink and write Fink? What would they do? |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah, so there's a bunch of different ways. I think the way that I would recommend that's closest to the way that I kind of went into it was start with something simple. I think one of the -- that's useless advice, out of context. |
**Jerod Santo:** "That's useless advice..." \[laughs\] |
**Linus Lee:** I mean, start with something more complicated -- no, start with something simple. But specifically, I think it's really hard to know what simple to implement... Like, classes inheritance seems pretty simple on the outside. Certain kinds of optimizations seem pretty simple on the outside... But it's actua... |
Start with something simple, and slowly add pieces on. There's specifically a lot of great resources and books out there that could help. The ones that come to mind -- I actually have a [blog about building your own programming language](https://thesephist.com/posts/pl/) too, if you search my name and "how to build a p... |
There's another book called -- I think like "Building a compile in Go" or "Building an interpreter in Go", or something like that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Writing an Interpreter in Go. That one's by Thorsten Ball. |
**Linus Lee:** Yeah, from Thorsten. |
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