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**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah, nobody reads that, and it's not really -- |
**Amal Hussein:** Also, Incognito Mode is another thing that's scary... Sometimes they're still listening in Incognito Mode, unless you explicitly tell them not to, or you have to explicitly disable some things in Incognito Mode... I mean, it's crazy all the verticals that they have. |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah. And to that point, I think one of your questions was "How do we trust other browser extensions?" and the answer is "We don't." We essentially -- our company policy is you're not allowed to use any browser extension that we don't use. And the reason for that is because it is a very scary ecosyste... |
**Amal Hussein:** Correct. |
**Andrew Beyer:** So you have to be extremely careful in what browser extensions you use, and you have to trust the company that is creating them. So we've been essentially creating browser extensions since before there were browser extensions... So Dave and Rustem are founders -- |
**Amal Hussein:** Since before browsers! |
**Andrew Beyer:** Well, they would actually swizzle Safari and inject some creepy code, that was legit, into your browser, to make 1Password work on Safari. And Safari saw that and they were like, "We need to add something to not get people to go down this road." So my friend Rustem actually demo-ed the very first vers... |
But to be honest, browser extensions are super-scary. I don't use a ton of them. I'm very careful with them. I use different browsers or different Chrome profiles if I do need to use an extension that I don't trust as much. |
**Amal Hussein:** Right. |
**Andrew Beyer:** But I am happy to say, this is a known problem, and people are working on it. Apple and Google are sharing a new W3C community group for web extensions, and Google is pushing this new - what they call Manifest V3 changes, which do dial back some of the permissions, and they really change the overall a... |
**Amal Hussein:** That's awesome. |
**Andrew Beyer:** Apple is also code-sharing that, and if anybody listening to this podcast or watching live is interested, we need more people to join that group. That is one of the ways -- like, 1Password has a whole bunch of people in there, but we need that diverse community helping to drive the next revision of th... |
**Amal Hussein:** What's it called? Is there a link to the group, and stuff like that? |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah, I can post it in the chat, but you can also go on W3C.org. There's a GitHub repo to go read the charter and open issues, but also there's a community that you can go join. They meet bi-weekly and essentially are like -- it's new; within the last couple of months new... But that is gonna be -- in... |
**Amal Hussein:** All the security nerds... |
**Andrew Beyer:** ...and drive a standard that works for us, but also helps make the end user more secure. |
**Amal Hussein:** The web a better place. |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah. |
**Amal Hussein:** \[31:53\] Yeah, totally. That's amazing. And yeah, kudos to Google for doing that. They're so great at pushing standards forward, and I think nerd herding -- similar kind of initiatives happened with DevTools... But DevTools in Chromium were developed as like an interfaceable API, such that you can co... |
So I think maybe my last question on this is really now that you've done this shift to cross-platform, and you're able to (I'm sure) leverage your own abstractions to manage the same codebase for all these different extensions, because you can write your own abstractions... But I'm curious, how has your development cyc... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** So I wanna push back on this idea of native app, because it comes up in every conversation these days... We've done a ton of research, a ton of interviews, and to the normal who doesn't watch this show and isn't part of our Twitter tech community, a native app is an app that has an icon on your dock... |
**Nick Nisi:** And a preferences panel that opens up in its own window, right? |
**Mitchell Cohen:** We're building that, and we're building that in a big way, and we're building it for every platform we support. And I mean, we're going deep into platform features. We're doing things on Linux that no one's ever done before, for instance having biometrics and browser extension integration, and integ... |
But the buttons are not NSbutton And that's where I'm just -- I don't really care anymore. I wanna build a great product, with great features, and I think that's true for all of us. So that's basically what we're doing. |
**Nick Nisi:** Yeah, I think that that's a really good vision to have. You care more about the result than how you got there... And I do, too. All of those features that you listed - those are the things that I absolutely love about 1Password. And if this changed to somehow not let me use touch ID, or the Apple Watch 2... |
And kind of shifting a little bit, I wanna talk about the technology and actually getting into the weeds a little bit about that... So kind of to tie this up, I'm curious, are the browser extensions - are they still going to be fundamentally the same codebase going forward? And did the new Electron style native app - d... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** It's a bit of both, actually. Some of the heritage of the app is 1Password X, especially the React components that we share between them... Some of it is actually in code that was originally written for our older Windows app, which was written in Rust, which is an important foundational element of t... |
**Nick Nisi:** "Your much older Rust app..." For some reason, that's just not computing to me. I don't see Rust being old enough to have old apps yet... But that's just me. \[laughs\] |
**Andrew Beyer:** \[35:57\] Yeah, so 1Password 7 for Windows had a ton of Rust code. That team was kind of early adopters into Rust, and they were essentially like "Why are you looking at all this other stuff? Rust is awesome." |
Rust got really interesting to us, because we were actually doing this cross-platform code thing for quite a while, and our infrastructure is written in Go, so we were big Go fans. We still are; our infrastructure still is. And for a while, we were writing cross-platform code in Go, and using it kind of cross-platform ... |
The Gopher.js approach kind of worked for us for a while, but we ran into those performance limitations. And so that's why we really looked heavily into Rust, is because they had - and probably still do; I don't wanna get into any debates about it, but they had a really incredible WebAssembly toolchain, and folks worki... |
So we're very heavy backend in Rust to WebAssembly for the web, but we're very heavy frontend in languages like TypeScript and frameworks like React; we even use Svelte from time to time when it's interesting. For example, our in-page suggestions - we needed a really fast JavaScript solution there to draw a menu on the... |
So we kind of toy and play around with pretty much every possible solution. And that's one of the reasons why the desktop apps landed on Electron, was we looked at every framework; we tried everything, and Electron just happens to be the industry standard, and the best. We went from basically almost in a single night -... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** The funny thing about Electron is it's actually the most boring part. And I know everyone wants to talk about it, but there's not much to it. It's effectively a glorified packaging format. It just takes a web frontend, and a native backend, and connects them. And actually, in our case we're connecti... |
**Amal Hussein:** It's pretty much like your unified client, and you ship a bunch of different binaries with it that are native. Is that right? I'm just trying to understand... What's it like hooking into that? Because there's -- Node is supported by default, right? So what are you using to connect that Node layer to r... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** \[40:08\] So that's what I was just referring to, which is we write our code in Rust, and actually compile it to your system; not just in native code, but to architecture-specific native code. For instance, if you took our Mac Electron app, you couldn't take the resources and run them, never mind on... |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah, and then the cool thing about this architecture, and one of the reasons why I would advocate looking at web technologies is - if you write your frontend in a web technology, not only can you use it in the browser, but a lot of these cross-platform frameworks and utilities and packaging and all t... |
We're actually funding a couple projects to see if one day we can do this all in native system webviews, and those kind of things. |
We're actually very interested in driving this approach of like write a cross-platform app using web technologies, because it's awesome. You get to dictate your own design language. I don't know if anybody has been paying attention, but CSS and JavaScript has gotten really freakin' good in the last 5-10 years. It's a w... |
**Nick Nisi:** Yeah. I was gonna ask about the choice to go with TypeScript there... Was that an easy choice, or was there some kicking and pulling? |
**Amal Hussein:** \[laughs\] Always looking for a TypeScript angle, Nick... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** It was the easiest choice we've ever made, as a company... |
**Nick Nisi:** Yeah. |
**Amal Hussein:** If I had had a dollar for every time I heard that question from Nick, you know... |
**Andrew Beyer:** It's pretty funny, Mitch used to toy with me... He'd be like "Once you need TypeScript, you can use TypeScript", when we would start a little project, or whatever, in JavaScript. But honestly, even now, in my side-projects, everything I do in JavaScript, I start with TypeScript. It is amazing tooling ... |
**Break:** \[42:33\] |
**Nick Nisi:** So let's dive deeper into the architecture a little bit, and the native and web interface, where those two meet. I wanna dig and understand a little bit more about how it all kind of works together, and why it's the best decision for 1Password. |
**Andrew Beyer:** I think the question we're looking for is like the architecture -- and this is, I'll be honest, one of the places where I think we as 1Password probably didn't have the best messaging out the gate, when we first launched 1Password 8... Because we did go heavily into the architecture, which is - look, ... |
I'm not 100% -- I'm still waiting to see, is there another Electron app that does unlocking with Apple Watch? We might be the only one; I haven't found another one. But we spent a heck of a lot of effort into the actually making our Mac app as good in 1Password 8 as 1Password 7. And unfortunately, I think one of the me... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** \[48:20\] So a lot of this conversation has been about what Mac users expect. And it's always like a hypothetical Mac user. People tell us "This is what Mac users expect." It's interesting to me - first of all, I've been a Mac user for as long or longer than the people telling me this, and I know wh... |
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