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**Amal Hussein:** Wait, are you Steve Jobs? Because you guys have been inventing browser extensions before browsers, you've been using Macs since before Macs... I mean, you know... Be like Steve reincarnated. |
**Andrew Beyer:** He may or may not have a Lisa in that room... |
**Amal Hussein:** Oh, nice...! |
**Mitchell Cohen:** I actually have an Apple Lisa sitting on my desk over there. |
**Nick Nisi:** Oh, man... |
**Amal Hussein:** O...M...G... That belongs in a museum. That's incredible. |
**Mitchell Cohen:** It doesn't turn on. I'm still working on it. |
**Amal Hussein:** That's cool. |
**Mitchell Cohen:** Yeah... The wonderful thing about Steve Jobs, by the way, is that he was not nostalgic, which is -- |
**Amal Hussein:** Well, I think you should just go to his grave and get a drop of his blood, or a piece of his hair, and it'll turn on, you know... Just kidding. \[laughs\] Alright, I'll stop now. |
**Mitchell Cohen:** I love the Mac, I love the platform, I love every Mac that comes out. I'm sitting here on this wonderful M1 MacBook Air; it's the best computer I've ever had. And the Mac has succeeded vastly beyond where it was when I joined this company, when we were making just a Mac app... And that's wonderful. ... |
I actually think that for the average college student, for instance, who uses a Mac, they'll think of something like Discord or Slack or Notion and say "That's what a Mac app looks like. That's how it works." They're not going to point to these apps that came out decades ago, that sort of are the standard bearers for w... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. How challenging is it to work for or on a platform that is so closed, in many ways? In terms of community feedback, and having your input actually heard, and having an opportunity -- like, it's a very different company than Google and Microsoft, right? Google being on the far left, Microsoft bei... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** I think this is almost a different question if you're talking about macOS versus iOS. |
**Amal Hussein:** macOS, I guess... I mean, I'm not familiar with the differences between the two though, so I don't even -- yeah. |
**Andrew Beyer:** \[51:49\] It's kind of a hard question to answer, because I don't honestly really feel that way, especially on the Mac. I think that in this day and -- honestly, macOS, at the time OS X 10 was one of the coolest innovations the Mac platform has ever had, and there's a reason why we're still on that fo... |
I don't know how many developers know this, but when you go to WWDC (the Worldwide Developer Conference for Apple), they give developers time with Apple engineers. Three months ago, when they announced iOS web extensions, I had three separate sessions with engineers directly working on those APIs, and we were able to s... |
Also, Apple is very open source and open in the community as well. Swift is open source; WebKit - you can go on there and just file any issue you want. I don't really feel that it's a hostile environment for developers or users. I know we hear the horror stories where some high school student reported a bug to Apple vi... |
**Amal Hussein:** Well, I'm really so happy to hear that feedback, because I don't think that -- it's just not a common sentiment, I think, outside of people who are doing the day-to-day work... Because I think a lot of us still have that perception of Apple, and its closed system, and Apple is really hostile towards t... |
**Andrew Beyer:** What I would say is every company changes... I remember when I was 13, 14 years old, running -- I mean, I was running openSUSE 7.3 or something back in the day, just love-and-raging on how \*bleep\* Microsoft for the, you know, like "The man has got me down and I've gotta go Linux!" But look at Micros... |
It takes a lot of effort to move a company that big, and they have a lot of different challenges, both internally and externally, communication-wise, I'm sure, just like we do... But I would say they're on that trend as well. There were days when we would say "Internet Explorer is killing the internet", right? And look... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. Well, I just wanna actually hand the mic back to Nick, because I think Nick had a point... But I just wanted to say - funny story about Internet Explorer... A lot of people think that it was the worst thing for the web, but in actually many ways it was like the best thing for the web, because it... |
**Nick Nisi:** You really need a villain to push the heroes. |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. But it's a perspective that people don't get to really think about often... And I was taught that by a friend of mine, who is kind of a platform nerd... But yeah - so Nick, you were saying...? |
**Nick Nisi:** \[56:12\] Yeah, I hear that sentiment about Apple being like that. Not necessarily for the Mac, much more so for the iOS, and their close-mindedness on PWAs and things like that, and just the approach to the web, and the overall -- Safari being so far behind, and not allowing any other browser out there ... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. Everything is WebKit, you know? Firefox on iOS, Edge on iOS, Chrome on iOS - it's all WebKit underneath. |
**Nick Nisi:** Yeah. |
**Mitchell Cohen:** But WebKit is great. We like the browser engine competition... |
**Amal Hussein:** Of course. We don't mind WebKit, yeah. WebKit's great, yeah. |
**Andrew Beyer:** I did not know we were gonna get into an Apple, Microsoft, Google debate, honestly, so I didn't come prepared for it... \[laughter\] But I will say that -- I mean, I am an iPhone user, I know at certain times there were Android phones that came prepackaged with antivirus, and stuff like that... And wh... |
I think it's gonna be super-exciting... I think that's gonna actually cause a surge in the market of browser extensions. Right now password managers and ad blockers are the big ones that everybody knows about, but I'm super-excited to see, even day one, from what I've seen on Twitter, there's a lot of really cool stuff... |
It'd be interesting to see how that works, and as we noted security before, it will be interesting to see -- I'm sure there will be some sort of level of fall-out or something that happens because of that. But I think Apple is becoming very open to the fact that -- and I think being fairly respectful of the web and a l... |
**Amal Hussein:** I'm so glad. Great. It's 2021. I'm glad they're coming to the party. They're not quite here yet, but they're in the cab. So we'll welcome them when they arrive. But just to kind of wrap this discussion up, I can't end this show without asking my burning questions, which are really around Web 3.0 and t... |
**Mitchell Cohen:** So there's two parts to that answer... One is that we've been through several changes in user behavior on the web, in relation to their own privacy, security and digital identity, and we've always succeeded by adapting how 1Password works to how people actually think about their identity online. |
\[01:00:12.00\] The first big transition was from an app to the web, and then to mobile, and then wanting it to become a collaborative sharing experience on the service... And now we're seeing another transition to passwordless, for a lack of a better term. And we want to be there too, because we don't wanna be telling... |
Beyond that though, we also are very interested to see how people are using passwordless services and SSO, as you mentioned, Amal, blockchain services for identity. And we wanna help them do that, because the one thing that we've seen that will always be true is there are all of these services competing for people's on... |
**Amal Hussein:** You guys are the shovels and the highways. |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah, that's one of the reasons we don't have an SSO service ourselves. We saw it in the beginning days, but we wanna be that collection, that out of bad place that you store your entire digital life and digital identity... And I think we are gonna see more moves to passwordless, but I think you'll al... |
**Amal Hussein:** Right. That makes a lot of sense. You kind of mentioned something, Mitch, around SSO, and Adam, you did as well... So there's essentially kind of like these widely growing adoption of third party logins, whether you're logging in with Facebook everywhere, or Google, or GitHub, Twitter... And then ther... |
**Andrew Beyer:** I'll take one of them, and that is I have a recent personal SSO story... So I will share it with the group, just so if anybody else -- I was gonna write a blog post about it and I just haven't gotten around to it. But my recent personal SSO story was I've used Gmail basically since the beta days, when... |
\[01:04:00.18\] Basically, I did do that, and I finally shut down my Google account. And of course, with that, I actually had Google Fi, which I basically couldn't close this G Suite account without switching my Google Fi to another carrier... And I had - not a lot, but quite a few little SSO sign-in websites where ess... |
So I look at SSO as kind of a "You're tying yourself to that company or that provider", and in some ways, that can be good. For example, I think it's really smart from a business perspective to off-board a user and just immediately kind of kill their access to various services... But from a personal perspective, especi... |
**Amal Hussein:** Agreed. Quite frankly though, on that same note, the fact that people's emails are centralized and they don't own their domain, nor their content... You know, if Google cuts you off, there goes your email - that's a problem also, you know? |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yeah, there's a ton of ramifications there. So that's why I'm a little mixed. Honestly, what I want is I want SSO in certain scenarios, I suppose, but I want a service like 1Password to basically keep track of all of my SSO logins - where they are, what they are... So if I do go through a transition l... |
And I think that's a place where having a third-party who aren't invested in trying to lock you into their ecosystem is a huge benefit of using a product like 1Password. |
**Amal Hussein:** That's awesome. |
**Mitchell Cohen:** And to your question about the trends - I think users are eager to adopt passwordless technologies, but they wanna feel like they still have control, and that's something that a lot of these providers aren't really offering, or at least aren't being open enough about... Like, "What do I give up if I... |
**Amal Hussein:** That's pretty cool. So does that mean it's easy to migrate into 1Password as a customer, and migrate out as well? |
**Andrew Beyer:** Yup. Essentially, we've always had the premise that it's your data, it's your secrets, so you can export them and take them anywhere with you. Also, if you sign up for a membership and you stop paying us, you'll essentially still have read-only access to that data. We'd never make it to the point wher... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. Well, honestly, kudos to you all for even just doing what you've done. I'm really excited to check out your whitepapers; I'll link them in the show notes as well. Ultimately - I've said this tons of times, and I'll say it again... The internet was designed to be open, this open network between t... |
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