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**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** So the trademark thing aside - that's a different matter; that lawsuit for the trademark is a separate issue. If they're relicensing as a reaction to that, then it's essentially them stamping that little princess foot, taking their ball and going home... And it's a childish reaction to a tradem... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. You're not here to give any legal advice. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. That's just your take. |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** Yeah. But the relicensing - they screwed up at the very beginning by not understanding what a permissive license allows, and what that is. They screwed that up. They put it out there under a permissive Apache 2.0 license, without thinking "Somebody can now build a better product offering on top... |
So it's very difficult to see strategically why they thought this might have been a good move, to just give their entire ecosystem the finger, while trying to take a shot at Amazon. It kind of seems amateurish, and I would have expected better of a company that's been around for this long. |
**Jerod Santo:** So let's say I was a happy Elasticsearch user a month ago, and here I am today, and I'm like "Vicky, what do I do? They changed the license on me. I don't know what to do." What do you say to that? Go to the Amazon fork, or...? |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** I will say "I don't know, it depends." Of course, I have been known to do a fair bit of consulting, and so any consultant who isn't starting up with "It depends" is trying to sell you something. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** So it totally depends. What are your needs? How much do you rely on that Elasticsearch, or on that Kibana? We have to remember, there are two really big projects here that have been relicensed. It's not just Elasticsearch. So what is the strategic value and the architectural value of that piece... |
There are a couple of forks now - there is, as we all know, the thing that kicked all this off, which is Amazon's open distribution for Elasticsearch, from the last time Elasticsearch did something kind of goofy in the open source world... And then they have their new, totally open distribution that Amazon just forked.... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, alternatives. |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** Yeah, exactly. Maybe Grafana would be better for you. I don't know. It depends upon your needs. Don't go doing something just because it's what everyone else is doing. Look at your needs. your company, your architecture, your budgets, your staffing... Who knows what software do you have to ramp... |
**Jerod Santo:** I was hoping I could just ask you once, and then the whole community could just listen to you, you know? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[laughs\] Not that easy. |
**Jerod Santo:** Let's multicast a solution. |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** Oh, no, there is no single solution to any of this sort of stuff... Because every one of these companies is going to be different. If they were all the same, then we wouldn't need them all, right? We'd have one market, one company - boom, you're done. But we don't have one. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** One license. Too easy. |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** One license. Gosh, wouldn't that be -- oh my gosh, that would be so easy; that would be so nice. But that's not the way it is. |
**Jerod Santo:** But then what would you do? You wouldn't need a consultant at that point. |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** Well, yeah, but I do corporate strategy. It's not simply about licensing, it's about so much more than that. That's just a tiny sliver. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, okay. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, Vicky, we wanna respect your time. Is there anything else that you wanna share that we didn't ask you? Any questions that's like "I just wanna put this out there", that we haven't asked you a question to at least? |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** No, not really. I think you've covered pretty much the highlights of this stuff, and then it'll be interesting to see what others have to say. I don't typically listen to podcasts, but maybe I'll actually listen to this one. |
**Jerod Santo:** There we go. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, you might hear me thank you at least once before I thank you right now for your time, but... Thank you, really, for your time and for this blog post that you shared. It was very helpful for us to sort of get a different perspective on these concerns around open source. We've quoted a couple of... |
**VM (Vicky) Brasseur:** Absolutely. Thanks again. |
**Break:** \[01:39:06.22\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Last up on this epic show is Markus Stenqvist, who self-describes as an everyday web developer from Sweden. Let's do this. |
**Jerod Santo:** Please tell us who you are and your vantage point on the software world. |
**Markus Stenqvist:** Well, I'm just a normal, everyday web developer from Sweden. |
**Jerod Santo:** Awesome. |
**Markus Stenqvist:** My name is Markus. I work for a small company no one has heard of, yet... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yet. There you go. |
**Markus Stenqvist:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** How did you first hear about the news of Elastic's relicensing? I'm just curious; where do you get your info? |
**Markus Stenqvist:** I read the article from Elastic on Hacker News. I saw them posting like "This is not okay", or something in those lines. |
**Jerod Santo:** Awesome. Well, we're gathering perspectives from all over the community, so it's awesome to have just a regular, everyday web developer here on the show... So welcome. |
**Markus Stenqvist:** Thank you. |
**Jerod Santo:** So what do you think? What are your thoughts on the whole situation? There's lots of nuance, lots of ins, lots of outs... |
**Markus Stenqvist:** Yeah, exactly. Well, I read a lot of comments and I read the Amazon article as well one day, that was posted, about forking the repo after they relicensed Elastic... And I really don't even use Elastic or Amazon Web Services \[unintelligible 01:40:26.01\] But I care a lot about open source in gene... |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm with you - I don't use AWS, I don't use Elastic, I also care about open source... What is it about open source that you like, or that you care about, and are trying to preserve or be a part of? |
**Markus Stenqvist:** That's a good question. I think it's a matter of the fact that I can use software for free, and share it with colleagues and people all around the world, without any restrictions... And no one can forbid me from using stuff which I want to use. |
**Jerod Santo:** So when you first heard about the relicense to the SSPL, what was your hot take, what was your emotional reaction? Were you indifferent, were you mad at Elastic, did it feel like it's no longer open source, or do you still think it's still in the spirit of open source? |
**Markus Stenqvist:** Well, I'm actually very much on the Elastic side for me... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Markus Stenqvist:** I saw a lot of comments on Hacker News that were like "Oh, Amazon is all in the right" and yadda-yadda... But they have actually done the same with MongoDB liek two years ago, I guess, where they pushed them to basically relicense, because they simply don't want to pay (I guess) their fees. |
I think Amazon could be a bit more friendly towards those open source companies, because right now, when they use the products for free, maybe they hurt the possibilities of future open source companies going forward. |
**Jerod Santo:** So if you were an Elasticsearch user... |
**Markus Stenqvist:** Yeah, I have been in the past, but I'm not using it today. |
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