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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I'll ding you. |
**Amal Hussein:** Be customer-focused. That's my answer. Ultimately, the web is powered by people who love your products, your websites, your apps... So build for your customers first, and focus your efforts around your customers, your users, and you'll never go astray. I see too many developers getting either hung up ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Uh-oh... |
**Amal Hussein:** TypeScript -- if I could put a survey out there for the number of hours that developers have spent fiddling with their types, and making something work for a system that... Like, quite frankly, what TypeScript has done is incredible, but the reality is there's always going to be gaps. And we see that ... |
So just don't spend time on things that your users are never gonna experience. Focus on optimizing the code that is running in the browser for your customers. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** I couldn't agree more. I even have a similar opinion of TypeScript. Our teams love TypeScript. |
**Amal Hussein:** Oops... Sorry, Jerod. |
**Jerod Santo:** I have no horse in this game, so... |
**Amal Hussein:** No, you don't, but you know... We have a lot of TypeScript fans, I'm sure. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** \[56:02\] And I like TypeScript as well. |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. I don't dislike it. I mean, I'm starting to like it. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** I'm actually a huge nerd for correctness systems, and proof construction software, and proof checkers etc. But the thing that I'll say is -- and I've kind of updated my thinking on this recently... I used to think TypeScript is a trap for not thinking about the customer and thinking always about yo... |
So I think there's always a balance... JS + unit tests constrains the valid programs to be executed to a certain extent, but that's not enough, so introducing TypeScript is a great thing; it's incremental, you can adopt it progressively... But you can get into this pit of "All I'm doing is focusing on over-prescriptive... |
But the reason I say I updated my thing is I realized "Well, you could argue that for abstractions, too." People have a lot of times fallen for that bit of like "You know, I'll write a better React" or "I'll write a new state management library for React." So I think the type of developer that will not use TypeScript w... |
**Amal Hussein:** Oh, like the "not invented here"? That's another one... That's another 60-second one for you. People who don't leverage open source technologies and try to reinvent the wheel... A lot of folks really -- I mean, oh my God, the examples I could give you, but I won't... But really, just use open source. |
**Jerod Santo:** But aren't many of those great open source libraries actually reinventions of the wheel? Isn't that how we progress? |
**Amal Hussein:** Sure... |
**Guillermo Rauch:** We could get into that... That could be an infinite -- you know what I've been saying recently? And I really stand by this is, in my mind, the introduction of the idea of a component as a primitive, together with functions, classes, strings etc. feels to me very fundamental. It feels to me like whe... |
Fun fact - React has this atomic structure icon, so the metaphor even goes there... But I think that answers why I think -- you know, at some point you realize "This makes sense. This is an industry-agreed standard. This feels fundamental. I'm not gonna try to reinvent it", and there's the pointless "not invented here"... |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, that would be a terrible idea. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** Yeah, but I was gonna say - maybe there's no true legitimate space. Maybe there is. Maybe right now there's someone that is solving it for the domain of internationalization, or something that I haven't considered previously. However, we could agree with a certain degree of certainty that that woul... |
I like Bret Victor's motto/mantra here, which is "Inventing on principle." So if you have a principle that has not been thoroughly applied to a certain domain - like direct manipulation, in his case; that he can alter a visual representation directly by manipulating that representation. So "Okay, my principle has not y... |
But broadly, I agree with Amal that -- I agree and disagree. In some senses, I think TypeScript has created new ways of wasting time... |
**Amal Hussein:** \[01:00:19.04\] Yeah, I agree, it has created new ways. But I just wanted to say that I don't hate it. I was late to the game. Every time I do a big refactor and my app compiles perfectly, I feel a lot more confident now with TypeScript, let's say, than I did with JavaScript. Real talk. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** Yeah. And also, the question about JS still being there I think is so important, because the agility of JS when you're experimenting, when you're playing with what an API could look like... Even when you wanna give something to a customer before you know what you wanna build; there's still so many ... |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm ready to make my first prediction for 2021, now that I'm sitting here and listening to you two... And I'm gonna go ahead and predict that TypeScript will have reached the top of the hype cycle, begin its way down... |
**Guillermo Rauch:** No, actually-- |
**Amal Hussein:** No, I don't think so. |
**Jerod Santo:** The takedown pieces -- oh, the takedowns are coming. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** No, I think there's more. |
**Jerod Santo:** You think there's more? |
**Amal Hussein:** Nerds be nerds. Have some faith. |
**Jerod Santo:** I think the takedown pieces are gonna -- "Why I switched off TypeScript is gonna be the new blog post for 2021." |
**Amal Hussein:** Oh, my God... |
**Guillermo Rauch:** No, I think TypeScript, the good parts -- this is my guess... |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, I like that. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** ...and I'm not an expert. |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah, pragmatic TypeScript. Thank you very much. I wanna push pragmatic TypeScript as well. TypeScript, the good parts. |
**Jerod Santo:** Someone needs to write that book... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** It's already happening. I recently saw an article -- or I think it was a \[unintelligible 01:01:45.23\] resurfacing... Type checking has a cost in terms of performance. So there's already a case to be made about using TypeScript in a certain way to maximize type-checking performance, for example. A... |
Another thing I'm excited about is AssemblyScript, the subset of TypeScript that can be compiled to WebAssembly. I think we're gonna continue to see traction there. It's gaining support for closures... So it's basically saying "This thing that almost looks like JS is compiling to this tremendously optimal standard that... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah, I agree. I think that's gonna be huge. Edge computing in general, and edge everything has been growing. But I'll leave our listeners with this one thing - feel free to reinvent the wheel, just do it on your own time, I would say. As long as your website is not optimal for your customers... You k... |
**Guillermo Rauch:** Yeah. And that's why I was saying I'm so excited about the Web Vitals... Because it'll create the possibility for people to say "Look, this metric is not looking good for us." I'm gonna invent on that principle. I'm gonna say "This new thing got us out of this problem", and that's having that kind ... |
**Amal Hussein:** Agreed. |
**Jerod Santo:** Love it, love it. Well, Guillermo, thanks so much for coming on the Changelog. Amal, thanks for being my wingperson here today. |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah, wingperson, or winglady is fine, too. |
**Jerod Santo:** Winglady. I like that as well. |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah. We establish that I am milady, or whatever. |
**Jerod Santo:** Milady of JS Party. Thanks to both of your passion for the web platform, for continuing to push it forward while dragging us along in our best practices, and helping us to invent things, but inventing them on our own time; I like that. I think I might go invent something right after this show, on my ow... |
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