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[770.34 --> 770.44] Right. |
[770.48 --> 773.52] So like NeoVim's event loop and stuff is built around like that. |
[773.52 --> 782.66] And so we use lib UV bindings to do like the async jobs and many of our other event loop type things that we're interested in doing. |
[782.88 --> 786.62] And I haven't looked in depth at what then how it actually implements it. |
[786.78 --> 789.20] If I recall correctly, they're not using lib UV. |
[789.44 --> 792.66] So like the underlying implementation is not the same. |
[793.26 --> 793.78] Right. |
[793.86 --> 795.78] But their APIs are like pretty similar. |
[795.78 --> 798.20] And it's possible to write code that works in both. |
[798.36 --> 800.40] It's sometimes a bit annoying, but that's OK. |
[800.40 --> 808.54] And with the help of those like community plugins, is the burden on like plugin developers kind of lessened or almost nonexistent by that? |
[808.60 --> 810.90] Or does that kind of cause some issues? |
[811.44 --> 818.54] If all you want to do is run a job asynchronously, then it is not like incredibly difficult. |
[818.54 --> 831.86] There are other things that are much more like difficult to maintain shims between or some things that are very specific to Vim or very specific to NeoVim that either haven't been like unified or never will be. |
[832.32 --> 835.60] For example, right now in Vim, there's APIs. |
[836.06 --> 837.80] They're all prefixed with pop-up underscores. |
[837.94 --> 841.36] There's like pop-up underscore create or pop-up underscore menu or things like this. |
[841.36 --> 841.54] Right. |
[841.54 --> 843.82] And they allow you to make little floaty windows. |
[844.64 --> 846.70] NeoVim currently doesn't have those APIs. |
[847.16 --> 851.68] And we have not a shared floating window implementation underneath the hood. |
[851.74 --> 855.98] So it's not necessarily simple to just like port the patches over and get the results. |
[855.98 --> 865.32] But I'm working on a project and other people are contributing as well to create like Lua API that we can create windows with. |
[865.32 --> 877.80] And then we could expose a thin wrapper over that back in Vim L that's the same or looks the same to the user so that you could write plugins in Vim script. |
[877.98 --> 882.74] And they would work in Vim or NeoVim, even though the underlying implementations aren't the same. |
[882.74 --> 889.22] So it's not that we've completely abandoned any hope of like still making some things the same. |
[889.34 --> 895.72] But like right now, if you wanted to have floating windows in one versus the other, you'll have to write very different code. |
[895.84 --> 904.44] But if it's literally just like I just want to spin up a job and have it run externally, you could probably have that working for your plugin in like five or ten minutes for simple cases, I would say. |
[905.06 --> 910.78] So it sounds like the longer it goes, the less underpinnings they share. |
[910.78 --> 920.88] You mentioned that there was a thousand patches or so in the 0.5 that were like direct ports from Vim into NeoVim. |
[921.66 --> 926.84] Do you expect over the course of NeoVim's life that that number would decline over time? |
[927.00 --> 936.14] Or do you think there's enough foundation that's shared that there's always going to be massive amounts of shared porting the solutions that come with over there onto the NeoVim side? |
[936.14 --> 941.50] In general, I try not to predict the future too much because it's a difficult game to play. |
[941.74 --> 942.88] But what trend are you watching? |
[943.06 --> 943.70] Give us the trend. |
[943.82 --> 943.98] Yeah. |
[944.54 --> 949.28] In certain areas of the code, I would see us still porting patches for a long time. |
[949.38 --> 952.40] And port is in some cases like very loose. |
[952.48 --> 961.78] It might be literally just applying style differences and putting them in and then porting like tests written in Vim into Lua because we write most of our tests in Lua. |
[961.78 --> 967.02] So some of those patches are like very simple and they like are almost direct applications. |
[967.34 --> 976.96] So there are some areas that I would expect that to like happen for a long, long time, like a bunch of things in like eval.c, which is where, you know, Vim script things get done. |
[977.02 --> 978.34] Like it's like, okay, it was simple. |
[978.42 --> 982.08] We just added this new argument to a Vim script function. |
[982.38 --> 983.02] Okay, cool. |
[983.14 --> 986.10] We can try and port that over and then we can have that the same in both. |
[986.10 --> 990.16] But in other areas, there already exists no way to port patches. |
[990.44 --> 995.10] For example, like for floating Windows code, we have two separate implementations. |
[995.92 --> 998.64] So it makes no sense to port any of those patches. |
[998.78 --> 1001.10] They get marked as not applicable for NeoVim. |
[1001.74 --> 1010.40] But it may be that we in effect port some of those patches over in attempts to keep the community as like close as we can. |
[1010.40 --> 1023.52] Right, like with the example I gave of the pop-up APIs where NeoVim would still like to implement those so that people don't have to worry about which one they're writing for and they can continue serving both communities easily. |
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[1124.64 --> 1125.82] So let's talk Lua. |
[1126.16 --> 1127.14] Yeah, that sounds good. |
[1127.14 --> 1133.74] On our Vim episode, I asked everybody what frustrations they have with the editor, and Gary Bernhardt said, VimScript. |
[1133.74 --> 1139.90] I'm pretty good at complaining, so I'll limit myself to just one thing, VimScript. |
[1140.02 --> 1144.52] To understand Vim's relationship to its scripting language, let me contrast with Emacs. |
[1144.70 --> 1148.86] Emacs is more, is almost like an operating system that happens to ship with an editor. |
[1149.66 --> 1157.84] And long-term Emacs users will effectively end up rewriting parts of that editor sometimes, but it's still Emacs because the layers underneath are still Emacs. |
[1157.84 --> 1160.18] So Emacs Lisp is a whole programming language. |
[1160.40 --> 1162.18] It was designed to be a programming language. |
[1162.44 --> 1164.28] Vim is not like this at all. |
[1164.44 --> 1165.76] Vim was designed to be a text editor. |
[1166.12 --> 1167.28] It had a configuration language. |
[1167.38 --> 1172.88] That configuration language grew over time to acquire normal programming constructs, and that is what we call VimScript. |
[1173.04 --> 1178.70] So it's a hodgepodge, and it wasn't sort of designed all at once, and I don't think it's controversial to say it's kind of a mess. |
[1178.70 --> 1186.50] So that is the most frustrating part of Vim for me, and it also is one of the reasons that I avoid configuration when I can. |
[1187.00 --> 1193.34] I have a very sort of mostly stock Vim configuration, despite 15 years, and VimScript is why. |
[1194.14 --> 1196.46] So this is something NeoVim's taking head-on, isn't it? |
[1196.66 --> 1205.70] Yeah, I think NeoVim's choice of choosing Lua as what I would consider sort of like the de facto future of configuring NeoVim. |
[1205.70 --> 1211.56] Not that it won't be possible to write VimScript or that we will like remove the engine or anything like that. |
[1211.94 --> 1212.92] That is not happening. |
[1213.26 --> 1216.82] We will continue to support that and allow that to happen. |
[1217.40 --> 1227.52] I think Lua has invigorated a lot of people to be interested in both contributing and sort of being able to explore making NeoVim more their own. |
[1227.52 --> 1239.76] Not only is like Lua like a programming language that has lots of external libraries that you could install with like LuaRocks and things like that, and there's a lot of other external resources for learning Lua. |
[1240.02 --> 1245.00] But there's also really cool things like LuaJit, which allows for crazy performance. |
[1245.30 --> 1247.92] That's just like sort of insane. |
[1247.92 --> 1262.60] We'll talk probably a little bit about Telescope later, but like Telescope can find and fuzzy sort literally like tens of thousands of items as you're typing in one main thread attached to the UI. |
[1263.02 --> 1267.66] We currently have some stuff in progress to do a few things in a little bit smarter way so it doesn't block. |
[1267.66 --> 1278.46] But regardless, it's doing an incredible amount of work like as you're typing and that sort of like performance is just not possible with old VimScript. |
[1278.76 --> 1283.26] It's true that Bram's working on Vim9Script and there will be performance improvements there. |
[1283.86 --> 1290.98] There's a lot of people I know that I've talked to personally that are excited to use Lua because there's applications outside of NeoVim, right? |
[1290.98 --> 1298.94] They're like, oh, I used this for scripting before in a video game or I've used this in, you know, whatever C application or, oh, I've embedded this here. |
[1299.04 --> 1308.86] So they have sort of like previous experience or future experience that they'd like to have with the language that maybe makes it more accessible and exciting for them, as well as being fast. |
[1309.82 --> 1315.20] Given NeoVim's architecture on top of LibUV, was JavaScript considered as a potential language? |
[1315.60 --> 1318.62] It was, I think, considered but discarded. |
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