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I don't know if I'd go that far, because I don't know how to support a notebook in production, but it is such a pervasive idea... It's cool to see that as a piece of this. And of course, there's other things too; you were mentioning Pandas, and other things... For people that aren't familiar, in Python there's a librar... |
**José Valim:** \[laughs\] Yeah, right now I think we are going to tackle graphs, because it's part of the notebooks... But I'm hoping for the data frames stuff other people are going to step in... And we are having a bunch of related discussions on the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation Machine Learning Working Group, and th... |
\[52:12\] And sure, machine learning, and then we can talk about neural networks... There's so much work to be done, and so many things to explore... So people that are excited will jump in, and we are going to have a feast. We didn't talk about clustering, forests, classifiers, regressions... And then we can talk abou... |
**Daniel Whitenack:** Yeah, it seems like if you've got the graphing thing going, and you're talking about Elixir having the natural abilities with web development, with LiveBook and the other things here... You know, a big thing in the AI world is monitoring your training runs with a bunch of cool graphs, with somethi... |
**José Valim:** Yeah, that's definitely something that we'll explore at some point. Probably TensorBoard integration as well is something that we are bound to have. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, it seems like LiveBook really could be your marketing machine; it could be your way in for all the disillusioned notebook sharers out there, who've had -- like Daniel said, they can do a lot of stuff with Jupyter Notebooks or existing tooling, but there's pain points with collaboration, with all ... |
**Daniel Whitenack:** Not so quick, Jerod... \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm like, "That's a feature? Isn't that how things work?" \[laughs\] |
**Daniel Whitenack:** I mean, it's kind of the wonderful thing about Jupyter Notebooks and the really hard thing about them. It's similar -- if you go back in history, I don't know if either of you ever used Mathematica, but it's a similar idea. You have these cells of execution... It's really wonderful for experimenta... |
The problem is then "Oh, what were the 4 million things that I did tweak to get this to go, and what state is saved in my notebook?" I could get it to work and then reboot it and run it from top to bottom and it's not gonna work again. So it's the good thing and the bad thing. |
**José Valim:** Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it's like this feature, let's say, this sequential evaluation is going to be a limitation at some point. People will be like "Hey, I started training my neural network, but now I want to do something else in the same notebook, while the neural network is training. How can I do ... |
\[56:09\] If you look at the issue tracker there are a bunch of things that we have been thinking about. For example, one of the things that I wanna do -- so when you persist a notebook, they are persisted to the file system; so one of the issues is for example pluggable file systems, and I want to make a GitHub file s... |
**Daniel Whitenack:** I know there's this thing in the Python world called Binder. Essentially, you could create a GitHub repo with a notebook, and then you click on the little badge and it just pops up a hosted version of that notebook that will run, so you can give it a Docker image or something, with all the depende... |
Then the barrier is not like "Oh, Elixir is sort of new to me as a Python person, so I need to figure out the toolchain, but really what I wanna do is I just wanna click Shift+Enter through a few cells and see how it works." And that's very powerful. |
**José Valim:** Yeah, that's a very good point, something for us to look into. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, you guys have done a lot, but there's a lot left to do... What's the best place to get involved? Like you said, fertile ground; what did you say, hop in and have a feast, or something? If you're interested in this space and in Elixir, it sounds like there are lots of ways to get involved and to b... |
**José Valim:** We have the elixir-nx organization on GitHub, but a lot of the discussions are happening in the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation; we have the Machine Learning Working Group... So if you go to the EEF website, you can get all the working groups there, and you're going to find machine learning... And then you ... |
Originally, a lot of those things were kept confidential, like LiveBook, but now everything -- at least everything that Dashbit was working on is out in the public. We don't have anything, no more secret projects. So that's the place to go and where we're talking about things. We have a monthly meeting where we meet an... |
**Jerod Santo:** Is Nx bringing machine learning tools to Erlang, or are there other Erlang but not Elixir efforts in this space? Do you understand what I'm saying? |
**José Valim:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Is this the first time in Erlang the BEAM-based tooling around numerical computation is happening, or is it like Erlang-only things that have been going on? |
**José Valim:** I think it's the first time for the ecosystem. And because you can call Elixir from Erlang with no performance costs whatsoever... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. It's pretty cool, right? |
**José Valim:** You can just call -- like, the numerical definitions, they don't work in Erlang because they translate the Elixir AST. Or not the Elixir AST, but they translate the Elixir execution to the GPU; that wouldn't work with Erlang, but everything that we are building on top, like Axon, because it's just build... |
**Jerod Santo:** That's cool. Daniel, anything else from your side of the fence you wanna ask José about before we let him go? |
**Daniel Whitenack:** I'm just super-excited about this. Hopefully, there is some cross-over from the Python world. It seems to me like the timing is such that people in the AI world very much are more open to trying things outside of the Python ecosystem than they once were... And so yeah, that's my hope, and I defini... |
**José Valim:** Awesome. I'm really glad that you are having me on the show, and I was able to share all of those ideas and this work that we have been doing. |
**Jerod Santo:** You're welcome back any time. All the links to all the things are in your show notes, so if you wanna check out José's LiveBook demo on YouTube, we've got the link to that. We'll hook you up with the link to the Erlang Ecosystem Foundation if you wanna get involved... Of course, Axon and Nx are linked ... |
• The conversation starts with Brett Cannon's background and his Ph.D. in Computer Science |
• Brett discusses the value of a Ph.D. and advises that it's only worth it if you're passionate about a specific area of research |
• Brett shares his experience with the Python project, joining the dev mailing list in 2002 and getting his commit bit in 2003 |
• The conversation shifts to reminiscing about the early days of the internet, including dial-up modems and slow loading times |
• The rise of JavaScript sizes and its impact on website loading times |
• Brett Cannon's background and experience with Python, including his involvement in the project since its early days |
• The social contract of open source and the importance of treating each other with respect and kindness |
• The consequences of burnout and negativity in the open source community, including its impact on maintainers and contributors |
• The idea that open source is a gift and a perpetual gift, and the importance of setting proper expectations for interactions within the community |
• The need for a "circle of love and appreciation" to ensure the sustainability of open source projects. |
• The idea of open source as a gift can create unrealistic expectations for maintainers and developers. |
• The distinction between maintaining software and being a volunteer or contributor can be lost in online interactions. |
• Maintainers are human beings who deserve respect and kindness, not just means to an end. |
• Communication styles and expectations can vary greatly depending on personal background and exposure to different cultures and online interactions. |
• Proper expectations and communication are key to avoiding conflicts and ensuring a positive experience for both maintainers and users. |
• Paying maintainers for their work (e.g. Tidelift's model) can set a different expectation, but volunteer work still requires respect and understanding. |
• The importance of treating people as people in digital interactions, including the psychological aspects of human communication. |
• The human element often missing in digital interactions and the need to remember that others are human beings with families, interests, and emotions. |
• The growth and maturation of open source projects, including the challenges of dealing with grumpiness and growing pains as projects scale. |
• The history of Python, including its creation by Guido van Rossum and its early days as an open source project. |
• The need for structured processes and infrastructure to deal with the challenges of large-scale open source projects. |
• Expectations around open source software dependencies |
• The stress and pressure that comes with being a maintainer |
• The importance of understanding the open source community's limitations and boundaries |
• The need for a shift in perspective on open source as a gift rather than a free service |
• The potential consequences of relying too heavily on open source software without understanding its limitations and the humanity involved |
• The importance of empathy and understanding towards users and maintainers in the open source community |
• Managing user expectations and interactions in open source projects |
• The importance of empathy and connection in resolving conflicts |
• The need for education and awareness about open source and its communities |
• The concept of "Working in Public" by Nadia Eghbal and its relevance to open source interactions |
• Proposals for open source education and training, including a potential "Open Source School" |
• Setting clear expectations for open source projects and contributions |
• Clarifying the difference between community and corporate open source projects |
• Understanding the role of money and funding in open source development |
• Establishing a clear separation between project direction and funding sources |
• Recognizing the different expectations for community-driven and corporate-driven projects |
• Open source projects have different motivations and priorities than community-based projects |
• Corporate-backed projects may have planned out quarterly or semesterly goals and communications |
• Community-based projects may have inconsistent or undefined goals and communications |
• Research is necessary to understand the commitments and promises made by open source projects |
• Technical debt is still present in open source projects, even if they appear to be free |
• Companies must consider the costs and potential risks of using open source projects, including the possibility of a project's maintainer leaving or the code being deleted |
• There is no such thing as a "free lunch" in open source, and someone always pays the cost, whether it's the individual or the organization |
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