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• Open source community members discussing the realities of dealing with project changes, license changes, and technical debt. |
• Brett Cannon sharing his personal experience with burnout and finding coping mechanisms to manage his interactions with the open source community. |
• Discussion of Brett's end game and retirement plans, including continuing to work on open source projects but with more freedom to set his own direction. |
• Brett describing his ideal retirement day in open source, which would involve activities such as coding, teaching, and helping others. |
• Conversation about the importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care in open source contributions. |
• The importance of community and welcoming environments in open-source software |
• The value of not prioritizing one's own podcast or show over others |
• Brett Cannon's role on the Conduct Working Group for the Python Software Foundation and his efforts to create a welcoming and inclusive environment |
• The concept of "optimizing for" something, and how thinking about what one is optimizing for can help prioritize one's goals and decisions |
• The appreciation for open-source software maintainers and the importance of their work |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, it's Maintainer Week, which is awesome, and we love maintainers. Today we're talking about the relationship between a maintainer and a user and this idea of the social contract of open source. Today we're joined by Brett Cannon -- I mean, Dr. Brett Cannon. Brett, how are you? |
**Brett Cannon:** I'm good, thanks. How are you two? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** First time I'm ever calling you a doctor. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What's up with that? |
**Jerod Santo:** So official. |
**Brett Cannon:** Ph.D. in Computer Science, bachelor's in philosophy... A long time in school. That's the deal with that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There you go. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, once you do the time, you have to do the crime, I guess. Or you have to get use of it. You've gotta get that Dr. on there, why not? |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. And that's the funny thing... You're coming out of school after over a decade post-secondary, and it's one of those like "Yeah, you have a Ph.D, you can be called Dr.", and no one cares. Understandably... But it's one of those weird things, right? It's not on your credit cards anymore, it's not ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that right? |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Unless you're in a public place and somebody's having a seizure, and now they want a doctor, you know? |
**Brett Cannon:** Not me. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] "Is there a doctor in the building?!" |
**Brett Cannon:** I keep my mouth shut. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wrong doctor... Wrong type of doctor, at least. Not practicing in medicine, practicing in computer science, of course... Was it worth it, the effort? Did it pay off? |
**Brett Cannon:** No. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Are you happy with the time spent, or...? |
**Jerod Santo:** Can't even get "Dr." on his credit card. That's not paying off... |
**Brett Cannon:** So the advice I always give to people when they ask me this in general is I say I've found the master's degree worth it. The Ph.D. - you should only do it if there's something you very specifically want to research to that extent, and you're passionate about... Because there's a lot of bureaucracy to ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[04:40\] Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Priceless. |
**Brett Cannon:** But that was actually playing softball, that was not actually in a class, or anything, so... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It was during that time though, so you can at least attribute it to that... |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** So you became a doctor of love. |
**Brett Cannon:** That's right. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Brett Cannon:** I don't know if she would agree to that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Dr. Brett Cannon Love. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Well, we have you here because in addition to all this you have long time experience with Python. You're on the Python Steering Council, a core team member, and been doing it a very long time. How long have you been involved with the Python project? Remind us. |
**Brett Cannon:** Depending on your definition, I got my commit bits April 18th, 2003. But I joined the Python dev mailing list mid-June of 2002. So you can use either of those as the start points, but I typically just go with the commit bit, because it's a bit more fun to be able to point to my very first commit in th... |
**Jerod Santo:** So you're pushing two decades... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Longer than my web career. You got me beat... At least on that. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah, it's a long time. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I didn't start actually doing email and web until like 2005. |
**Brett Cannon:** Oh, wow. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So you got your commit bit before I even pushed HTML to the internet. |
**Brett Cannon:** Good way to make me feel old there, Adam. I appreciate that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It was Geocities even. \[unintelligible 00:05:56.26\] |
**Brett Cannon:** Oh, geez... Yeah, I remember my first 28.8k modem on EarthLink back in the day, and then being one of the first \[unintelligible 00:06:06.14\] who got a cable modem. I think that was like a 5 meg connection, which was major, because it allowed me to download the -- I think it was the first Diablo Demo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. |
**Brett Cannon:** And it \[unintelligible 00:06:24.22\] the first time, so I had to do it a second time. But yeah, I remember my first blog on EarthLink, and uploading it to -- you know, back when everyone had EarthLink.net/~ your email address, and all that stuff... |
**Jerod Santo:** Good times. The good old days. |
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