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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Brett Cannon:** ...who all know how to get a hold of you. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's like the law of big numbers. |
**Brett Cannon:** Exactly. It's exactly the law of big numbers. And it's one of these unfortunate things where you don't get prepared for it \[unintelligible 00:27:53.26\] For Python, for instance, we've tried to deal with it. Python originally was Guido van Rossum as benevolent dictator for life. We went to him for fi... |
\[28:17\] Nowadays we have multiple mailing lists, from Python Ideas, to Python Dev, to Python Committers. We have a Discourse instance... Guido's retired, and we now have the steering council that I'm on, we have \[unintelligible 00:28:28.02\] that wasn't -- it's always been there since I've joined, but it was not ori... |
**Jerod Santo:** Really? |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. And so it's one of these things where -- |
**Jerod Santo:** \[unintelligible 00:28:49.15\] |
**Brett Cannon:** Historically, what happened was Guido wanted a scripting language for the Amoeba Distributed Operating System that was being developed at CWI, which is a research lab in the Netherlands that he worked at. And he didn't \[unintelligible 00:29:03.15\] knew the people who worked on the ABC programming la... |
**Jerod Santo:** Amoeba. Nice. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. So this leads to building and structuring how to deal with it, but it's also one of those things that -- there's lots of growing pains. It's when do you hit that inflection point to add some extra layer to deal with things... You never quite know. You do it too soon, it feels too onerous; you do... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Brett Cannon:** But I didn't get into this expecting that, and that also means I'd never - and I think for a lot of people... I didn't get into this expecting people to have that level of dependence on me. And I think when people start to take that dependence is when the stress from people of not getting what they wa... |
I think as an industry we haven't taken the time quite yet to really try to structure and basically modify our view of what open source is in terms of dependency. Realize open source runs the world. If Linux went away, the planet would collapse. If all open source went away, we're really screwed. But I don't think anyo... |
As a maintainer, I don't have problems with you depending on my software to that level. But you \[unintelligible 00:31:44.28\] Once again, human being here; I can only handle so much stress. Don't come to me saying "The nuclear plant is gonna melt down if you don't fix this bug" kind of problem. I'm not set for that. I... |
\[32:10\] People forget that \[unintelligible 00:32:10.02\] was not the free bit, it was the open parachute in case you had to fork it to get what you wanted. But when corporations started to really latch onto it and saw the free label, like "Oh, my God!" Python, which is probably worth millions and millions of years o... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Thankfully, I think we're starting to have these conversations. We're slowing down. I think more and more people are becoming aware of the foundation, and the people who are building or have built or continue to maintain that foundation, and this discrepancy, and this problem of dependency and h... |
If we go back to the gift as a framing - I think it's the perfect framing for open source. I almost called it a metaphor, but it's not. It's literally a gift. The metaphor is the stack of USB disks, or -- USB disks? What do you say -- compact disks? |
**Brett Cannon:** USB drives. Yeah, I almost said DVD drives, but I realized the kids wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about, so I stuck with the flash drives. |
**Jerod Santo:** Floppy disks. You should have used floppy disks. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think that's a phenomenal metaphor, honestly, the USB drives. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I guess gift is literal, so... |
**Jerod Santo:** Gift is literal, but let's analyze it a little bit, because it's a fascinating gift, right? Because it is a snapshot in time... The gift you give - like you said, each commit, each thing released... That release is the gift, and that's a snapshot in time, and then it's received. You give it to the worl... |
\[35:50\] And then things go wrong, because maybe the gift didn't change, but the world changed around it. Bit rot is a very real thing. It wasn't a bug, but now it's a bug because I updated this other thing, or somebody decided they're not gonna use time zones anymore because of some sort of vote that happened in this... |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah, I think understanding the motivation is really important. To be very clear here, the vast majority of people are very kind, generous people, and I have absolute pleasure interacting with. I enjoy talking with people and helping with their problems and stuff, so I don't have issues. It's once aga... |
But yeah, understand that motivation -- it's a coping mechanism almost, to an extent... But it's really understanding "Alright, deep breath... Why is this person upset?" As you said, Jerod, usually it's someone's breathing down their neck, bad day at work, kids could have just been acting up... Who knows. There's a who... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You never know. |
**Brett Cannon:** You never know. |
**Jerod Santo:** There does seem to be some entitlement that comes up a lot in these cases, where you're like "Ehm, this person seems entitled." And maybe it's a lack of understanding of how the whole thing works. They need to go read that blog post. But... |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. "I work at a big company, so you should give me what I want, because I'm important." It's like, "Sorry, buddy. No." Or gal. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Or you work at a big company and they pay you to take care of it, and why aren't you doing it, kind of thing. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's a lot of assumption happening, right? And I think it's because it's a lack of connection. Anytime there's a conflict, the number one way to resolve conflict is more connection. You're not gonna get it from less connection. It's more connection. And connection is understanding. Connection is ... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I didn't say "butthurt", but I almost said "butthurt." |
**Jerod Santo:** Now you said it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The hurt maintainer. You know, you've got your feelings hurt; you've got ten awesomes but one negative, and that negative is just way heavier than the awesomes. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's always the worst, totally. |
**Brett Cannon:** Oh, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And that happens. But it's more connection that resolves conflict. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. And I wish this stuff was taught in school. I wish people who learn this stuff-- |
**Jerod Santo:** Open source? Or interactions. |
**Brett Cannon:** Both. I wish there was a class in high school that just taught people how to be decent human beings, along with how to balance a checkbook. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're on to something here. I think if there could be like a "I'm gonna participate as a user or a maintainer or anything in open source." "Here's some prerequisites." |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Understand that there are maintainers out there, understand that there are core teams, understand that there are foundations, and they have these roles and these responsibilities, and this is a gift. And that it doesn't change the fact that you use it in a dynamic world, this static gift, and that t... |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. Speaking in general, like, I would hope you would learn this in kindergarten kind of stuff... But at least at the university level you would hope undergrad courses, just general software engineering, where they talk about open source, just explained how the system works and what it represents an... |
\[40:21\] We teach kids how to \[unintelligible 00:40:21.15\] APIs and SDKs, and how to do this stuff, so why don't we teach them how to actually use it? And part of that is gonna be using open source, because guess what, that's where they're getting all their SDKs and APIs. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's true. My only pushback would be you learn whenever you have use in, and your brain is open to learning, so maybe not en masse that you are teaching this, let's just say, the younger folks that are going to university... Maybe those that are getting into the tech spaces. I'm tinkering with an Ar... |
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