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**Brett Cannon:** ...to quote Hot Fuzz. Specifically for open source, to keep it focused - I don't know, it kind of runs the gamut. Coding is great. I enjoy creating, and all that stuff. I love teaching and helping people. I actually enjoy giving talks and doing these podcasts with the two of you, and those other folks... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[unintelligible 01:02:48.13\] |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Wait a second, there are other podcasts? |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah, occasionally inviting me over to have a chat...? I'm sorry to say, there are... |
**Jerod Santo:** I don't believe it. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. I'm not gonna -- yeah, anyway... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Say their names, please. I'm just kidding. |
**Brett Cannon:** They're all friendly folks, it's okay. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:03:05.08\] Of course, yeah. You know what - on that note, for real, we love other podcasts. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. \[unintelligible 01:03:07.26\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The place is better because there's more than just us. |
**Jerod Santo:** Absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. We legit do. We wanna see everyone thrive. We're not a "Hey, come listen to our shows only \[unintelligible 01:03:15.03\] so just to be super-clear about that. I'm joking, but I wanna be clear. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah, yeah. No, totally fair. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We love our community. |
**Brett Cannon:** And I've never been on a podcast where anyone has suggested that "Yeah, don't mention that other podcast you were interviewed on a week or a month ago." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. We would never do that. |
**Brett Cannon:** No one's ever done that. You two, or anyone else. I'm joking amongst friends, just for everyone who don't know that I talk to Jerod and Adam. Anyway... Yeah, and just helping out, and stuff. I would like to not have to deal with code of conduct issues ever again. That's another thing I've done as a co... |
I'm doing that as a coping mechanism to make sure the environment ends up the way it needs to be, but retirement-wise, I would love to not have to do that anymore. But yeah, just kind of more or less what I do today... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** With complete freedom. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** To say no or to say yes. |
**Brett Cannon:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Or to say yes a lot more than you say no, because you can now. Because it's not 20%, now it's 80% or 100%, or whatever the number is you assign yourself. |
**Brett Cannon:** Exactly. Whatever strikes my fancy today. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. That's good. Brett, I'm glad that you have thought through those things, to think about coping, to think about your end game... I think it's important. Something I like to think about often is "What are you optimizing for?" Because it shows what you wanna do; it gives you the opportunity to ha... |
But Brett, you're a friend of ours, we love having you on the show. This special thing for Upstream and for Maintainer Week is -- obviously, open source software maintainers are near and dear to our heart; we literally love open source maintainers and we show up because we have that love, and that's why we produce the ... |
Brett, you're awesome. Dr. Brett Cannon, you're awesome. |
**Brett Cannon:** Thanks. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We appreciate you. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...doctor. |
• Ryan Dahl discusses his regret over design decisions in Node.js |
• He talks about his JSConf EU talk in 2018 where he discussed 7 things he regretted about Node, including not sticking with promises and the security system |
• Deno is presented as a second chance to correct some of these mistakes |
• Ryan discusses how Deno is an effort to move the server-side JavaScript platform forward in radical steps |
• He mentions that Node is slow to take on new changes due to its focus on backwards-compatibility |
• Ryan also discusses the benefits and drawbacks of Deno's TypeScript integration |
• He expresses regret over supporting TypeScript out of the box, feeling it weakens Deno's argument for web-compatibility |
• The conversation also touches on the reaction to Node's release and its rapid adoption |
• Node's initial success and the void it filled in the market |
• The challenges of maintaining a large, complex project like Node |
• Deno's approach to addressing these challenges, including its use of Rust instead of C++ |
• The benefits of using Rust, including its single build system and ease of linking third-party dependencies |
• Deno's focus on using web APIs and ES modules for package management |
• Deno's unique features, including its binding interface (ops) and promise-based async/await paradigm |
• Deno's approach to linking remote code is to use HTTP to download JavaScript or TypeScript files from any URL. |
• The system is built around the idea that local code can be linked to third-party libraries using relative imports or by downloading them into a vendor folder. |
• One advantage of Deno is that it eliminates the need for boilerplate code and package.json files, making it easier to develop small scripts. |
• Deno is not dependent on a specific package manager or server, making it more resilient to server outages. |
• Existing npm packages can be used with Deno, but may require modifications to be compatible with the ESM (ES Module) standard. |
• Versioning is handled by including the version in the URL, similar to how jQuery is linked from a CDN. |
• Deno's module system is based on the web browser's module system, which uses HTTP to load scripts. |
• Deno's compatibility layer for importing Node modules |
• Deno's security features, including secure by default and centralized gating for privilege access |
• Command line flags for granting privileges, such as allow write, allow net, and allow plugin |
• Potential adoption of a configuration file for granting privileges, but currently command line flags are used |
• Trade-off between convenience and security in granting privileges for server-side JavaScript systems |
• Shift left approach to security concerns in Deno |
• Interactive prompts for security permissions |
• Built-in tooling for development, including formatter, linter, and test runner |
• Inspiration from other languages, including Go, for tooling and standard library |
• Ecosystem still developing, with some features missing, such as native web server and package availability |
• Deno's standard library is still being fleshed out, with 40% compatibility with Node at the moment |
• Future plans to integrate Rust-based web server for improved performance and stability |
• Ryan Dahl's vision for the future of programming languages, particularly dynamic programming languages |
• Importance of JavaScript in modern software development due to its ubiquity, speed, and industrial standardization process |
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