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• Comparison of JavaScript with other dynamic programming languages such as Ruby, Python, and Perl |
• Discussion of Deno as a replacement for utility scripts traditionally written in Bash or Python |
• Ryan Dahl's past experiences with Node and Joyent, including the sale of Node to Joyent and his subsequent career path |
• Bert Belder's journey and his role in porting Node to Windows |
• The creation of Deno and the initial prototype work done by Ryan Dahl and Bert Belder |
• The decision to form a company to support Deno and the need for a funding model to sustain it |
• The company's choice of the MIT license for Deno |
• The development of Deno Deploy, a separate product from Deno that offers a cloud-based runtime and serverless functionality |
• The company's approach to funding and revenue, which does not involve a payment hook in the Deno software itself |
• Deno Deploy is a service that allows users to run Deno applications in a secure sandbox, providing a fast and lightweight experience. |
• The service uses V8 isolates, which are secure and lightweight, allowing multiple tenants to run on the same server without worrying about security breaches. |
• Deno Deploy has a commercial product, but it's currently in open beta and not yet collecting funds from users. |
• The service is planned to become production-ready in the near future, with a general availability announcement expected later this year. |
• Ryan Dahl mentions that Deno Deploy is not just a deployment service, but also a way to run Deno applications in a cloud-based environment, making it a potential competitor to Node.js and other deployment services. |
• There are plans to expand Deno's capabilities beyond just deployment, including potentially competing with Node.js in the long term. |
• Deno is a competitor to Node, but the Deno team welcomes competition |
• Deno Deploy's primary focus is on running code, but it lacks a database story |
• Ryan Dahl mentions Durable Objects as a competitor to Deno Deploy that offers collocated database capabilities |
• The Deno Deploy team is planning to add persistence features in the coming months |
• The Deno standard library is a key area for contribution, with a style guide and tests in place |
• Contributing to the standard library is a way to have a broad impact on the Deno ecosystem |
• The Deno team encourages developers to contribute to the standard library by proposing new modules |
• There are no notable applications built on top of Deno that are being showcased |
• Porting an existing Node app to Deno can be relatively straightforward if it uses ES modules and TypeScript, but may be more challenging if it uses common JS and old-school style Node code. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, we're here with Ryan Dahl, creator of Node, creator of Deno. Ryan, we're big fans of you, and we're so happy that you're here on the show. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Hello. Glad to be here. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think this is a first. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You've never been on the Changelog before, even back in the day. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Nope. Never been. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We've only talked about Node, not about the creator of Node. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, we've talked about Node, we haven't talked with the creator of Node. What a shame. Here we are to fix that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, ten years later, ish... Welcome. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Thank you. I think this is only the second podcast ever I've done. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, wow. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that right? Well, thank you for giving us part two of that. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's right, we're honored. So you're not here to talk about Node, you're here to talk about Deno. You've rearranged the letters; you've been hard at work for a couple of years now... And I would like to go back to your JSConf EU talk, which has become famous now, in 2018, the ten things that you regr... |
**Ryan Dahl:** They named it that, yeah. It was not ten... \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, that's just the way they named it on YouTube. I don't even think your slides said that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** They were like "One, two, three, four, five, six, seven... That's close enough to ten. We'll just call it ten." |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Round numbers and lists apparently work on the internet, so... \[unintelligible 00:03:04.01\] |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah. If you go to the title -- if you look at that talk and see the title slide, it has a completely different title. It's not "Ten things I regret about Node." |
**Jerod Santo:** Well good, because you had seven of them... And it seems like that was a talk that was put together somewhat last-minute, maybe because Deno wasn't quite as far along as you hoped it would be, or what was the back-story on that? Because even in the beginning you said "This wasn't my talk, but now it is... |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah, I was working on a different project, and I had applied to give this talk on this other project. It was something very similar to TensorFlow.js. So it was TensorFlow binding to Node, so that you could train machine learning models in Node... Plus something that's like Python's Jupyter Notebook, or ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Ryan Dahl:** \[03:58\] ...like a website where you could insert a bit of code and plot functions, and stuff. TensorFlow.js and Observable actually came out just before that talk, and... A month before that we decided "Actually, these projects are kind of dead-end. We should do something else." And JSConf insisted tha... |
**Jerod Santo:** Nice. So there's a bunch of stuff about Node... Anytime you make design decisions, in retrospect, it's easy to look back, and it's hard not to find flaws in things that we create... But we don't always get a second shot at it, and Deno seems to be, to a certain degree, a second shot, or at least anothe... |
**Ryan Dahl:** I mean, all of those things, I think. Generally, Deno is an effort to move the server-side JavaScript platform forward in kind of radical steps. Node has a lot of users, of course, and they try very hard to maintain backwards-compatibility, which is laudable and great for all of the users of it... But th... |
**Jerod Santo:** So now you're a few years into Deno... We've hit 1.0 last year. Lots going on, lots formalizing... I'm wondering now, since you've gotten into the weeds for a couple of years, and you look back - have you made any mistakes so far? You had seven or so of Node that you regretted... Any regrets with Deno ... |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's hard to make software and not make mistakes, of course... |
**Jerod Santo:** Totally. |
**Ryan Dahl:** This is going to be very controversial, but the TypeScript aspect of Deno - Deno has TypeScript compiled into it - is super-nice, very friendly, very nice to be able to just get up and started easily. But browsers do not support TypeScript, and Deno's overarching philosophy is bringing server-side JavaSc... |
I don't know about you all, but I feel like TypeScript is eventually what JavaScript is going to be. I feel like it is kind of the next generation of JavaScript. I'm very eager, and I think many people are, to go in that direction. But it's a big complication to our system to support TypeScript, and I think weakens our... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Ryan Dahl:** So we're certainly not removing it now, because Deno depends on it... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Go back and start over, would you-- yeah. |
**Ryan Dahl:** But yeah, I think it would have been easier for us to get started had we not supported that out of the box initially. |
**Jerod Santo:** That being said, it seems like it was also a big draw and a big differentiator at first. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Absolutely. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[07:54\] Let me just say that I was around when you announced Node, back in '09 or whenever it was; I remember it was right around the iPhone time... And I remember the reaction to Node. Probably not as well as you do, because you were on the project, and I was just an innocent by-stander... And maybe... |
**Ryan Dahl:** I think that's a fair characterization of what happened, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Adam, you were around... |
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