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**Tammer Saleh:** You don't care. So it does mean that when you're rolling hosts under your cluster, you need to probably call downtime, right? You need to stop fast |
**Gerhard Lazu:** We have a single host. \[laughter\] It's so good. It never went down. We have a much better integration with the CDN. And what that means is that even when the origin is down, we serve stale content. And unless you do posts or patches or anything like that. Gets; it works. And parts of the website may... |
**Tammer Saleh:** Basically, what you're telling me is, "Boy, life is easy when you are a read-heavy workload, I'll tell you what." |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, it is. It definitely is. And if we were to, for example -- if we had to have the database up, I really do think that going to a managed service, regardless who manages that, it's a much better proposal. |
**Tammer Saleh:** Oh, for sure. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** All the backups, all the replication, all that stuff - it's managed. You don't have to do that. And you're just consuming the PostgreSQL interface. That's it. So that sounds like a much better proposal. Like a CDN - would you run your own CDN? Maybe. I mean, if you're big enough, you'll have to. |
**Tammer Saleh:** \[55:58\] If you're that scale, sure, right? And another thing about running databases inside Kubernetes is that you could think of it as almost addicting, because once you make the decision that, "Well, we're not going to use an external database provider. Instead, we're going to just run them as sta... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Once you get to a certain scale, you're right; you have to take a certain approach. But when you're not there, don't take that approach. Take the simpler one. And what this approach means for us is that we can innovate elsewhere, and we can fight other battles. There will still be battles to fight, ev... |
**Tammer Saleh:** And one of these days, as a company, you'll get big enough where you need that more interesting, innovative challenges. And there'll be companies like ours to help you out when that happens, but please don't just assume you need that prematurely. There's a similar with writing code. I'll tell you, ite... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yes. |
**Tammer Saleh:** You can make all kinds of schema changes. Who cares...? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Never ship. That's what you're saying. \[laughter\] |
**Tammer Saleh:** Yeah. Basically, never ship, and you'll be the fastest startup. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So the opposite of this show. Don't ship it. \[laughter\] |
**Tammer Saleh:** But I mean, it's the same thing. You launch when you need to launch, but you understand the fact that as soon as you launch, you're going to slow down by at least a factor of two, maybe three, right? And you increase the complexity of your operations stance, your Kubernetes usage when you need to. And... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. That's a good one. That is a good one. So I think it's time to wrap up. We can have so much fun. I didn't even realize. I think we just have to do this more often, that's the only conclusion again, you know? As we prepare to wrap up, what do you think the most important takeaway is for our liste... |
**Tammer Saleh:** Well, I mean, I didn't think it was going to be this when we first started talking, but I think the most important takeaway is don't use Kubernetes, unless you need to. Delay the adoption of Kubernetes. It's going to be on your roadmap. It's going to happen as you grow. But just like anything else, do... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Well, thank you, Tammer, for sharing so much valuable information. |
**Tammer Saleh:** I had so much fun. This was great. Thank you. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. I had so much fun, too. Thank you. I'm looking forward to the next one. I really am. |
**Tammer Saleh:** Absolutely. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Thank you. |
• Tamer Saleh and Gerhard Lassil discuss their shared experience working in the same London office on Cloud Foundry |
• They transition to discussing Kubernetes, its challenges, and their experience helping companies like Bloomberg and Shopify with DevOps problems |
• Gerhard asks why companies need Kubernetes and what are the right reasons for choosing it |
• Tamer's company, Super Orbital, offers engineering and training services to tackle hard Kubernetes and DevOps problems |
• The conversation includes a humorous anecdote about table tennis culture at Pivotal and its decline with remote work |
• Company has been fully remote since before the apocalypse, finding it easier to adapt |
• Benefits of remote work include access to global talent and equal footing for all employees |
• Remote work can also lead to cultural benefits by bringing people from different backgrounds together |
• Cities are a strain on infrastructure and can create cultural divides; remote work can help flatten this divide |
• Companies now see Kubernetes as necessary, rather than just interesting, with many seeking to implement it |
• Challenges of implementing Kubernetes include its complexity, with many resource types and attributes to understand |
• Kubernetes release cycle has slowed down to every three months |
• Original authors of Kubernetes did not envision application developers directly using it |
• Complexity of YAML in Kubernetes is significant and requires engineer knowledge |
• Training for Kubernetes is a popular workshop topic due to complexity |
• Customers struggle with on-premise installations, targeting 80% market share through Kubernetes |
• Going on-premise is challenging, even with Kubernetes substrate, due to lack of telemetry and control |
• Highly regulated customers require custom code development for health checks and security |
• Integrating EKS with Nitro was challenging but successful |
• Comparison of Cloud Foundry to Kubernetes in terms of management complexity |
• Discussion of Bosch, a tool used for managing Cloud Foundry, and its similarities to Terraform and Ansible |
• Explanation of the "great wall DevOps model" vs. the "kumbaya DevOps model" |
• Observations on the use of YAML in Kubernetes and potential future changes |
• General discussion of Kubernetes' ubiquity and ability to handle complexity |
• Complex software modeling with Kubernetes |
• Maturity level needed for data services |
• Ubiquity of Kubernetes and its expected use |
• Finding the right combination of objects or products in Kubernetes ecosystem |
• Complexity and beauty of building blocks in Kubernetes community |
• Trade-offs between using Kubernetes and other platforms for small teams |
• Analogy between Linux on laptop experience and Kubernetes adoption |
• Recommendation to stay on fully managed platforms for as long as possible |
• Discussion of provisioning raw instances vs Kubernetes |
• Importance of standardization in container technology |
• Docker's role in popularizing containers and enabling Kubernetes' success |
• History of container technology, including early versions like Solaris Zones and FreeBSD Jails |
• Kubernetes' adoption and growth due to community excitement around Docker |
• The speaker discusses how Kubernetes and Docker are often confused as being the same thing |
• Docker is no longer a dependency for Kubernetes, but its standard is still used |
• Understanding Docker concepts, such as container runtimes, is necessary to grasp Kubernetes |
• Application developers don't need to be experts in crafting Dockerfiles, but rather understand the basics of Docker Compose and command-line tools |
• Centralizing expertise in Dockerfile creation can help teams use Kubernetes effectively |
• It's possible to use Kubernetes without a deep understanding of Docker |
• The speaker shares their personal experience with starting with Docker before learning Kubernetes |
• Importance of understanding Linux networking and general networking concepts for Kubernetes |
• Use of managed Kubernetes services (EKS, AKS, GKE) over self-managed clusters due to cost and ease of use |
• Risks and complexities associated with additional tooling such as Istio |
• Need for restraint when adding new components or tools to a cluster |
• Importance of understanding networking before diving into advanced features like Istio |
• Examples of essential components (cert manager) versus nice-to-have components (Helm) |
• Potential pitfalls in cluster management, including upgrade complexities and resource splitting |
• Using Helm charts for internal applications is tedious and can be handled by simpler tools |
• Automation is key when using Kubernetes, not just for cluster management but also for resource management within the cluster |
• Investing in automation will save time and money in the long run |
• Teams should focus on building an internal automation system, including CI/CD pipelines and GitOps |
• Hiring experts or partnering with companies that specialize in Kubernetes can be beneficial to avoid wasted time and resources |
• The importance of education for engineers when working with Kubernetes and cloud native technologies. |
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