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Kubernetes is entirely different from that, right? Kubernetes is what I call the kumbaya DevOps model where everybody has to know everything, right? Kubernetes doesn't have the concept of an operator, versus an application developer. At best, it gives you some tools where you can kind of build that using rbacks and stu... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. Okay. So they do have YAML in common... \[laughter\] That's still around. That's like silipaid but maybe not for long. Who knows? We'll see. So what I'm taking away from this is that Kubernetes is everywhere, and teams, they need Kubernetes because it's the easiest way to get something out there... |
**Tammer Saleh:** Yeah. It's not just ubiquitous, it's just becoming the standard, right? It's expected that if you're going to, as you said, model out your application infrastructure, then you're going to do it in YAML, using Kubernetes objects, so that you can deploy it anywhere. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And there are some really great projects in this Kubernetes ecosystem and in the bigger cloud-native ecosystem, which work well together. But it's intricacy of finding the right combination of objects or the products that make sense to you, and that's where the complexity lies in. So the kumbaya - any... |
**Tammer Saleh:** It's building blocks, right? The entire community is all about building blocks. And if you have a large enough team that you can dedicate a couple of people to choosing the right building blocks and wiring them all together and producing this really great experience for your engineers, then that's gre... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Do you think that teams would do better without Kubernetes? |
**Tammer Saleh:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it depends on the size of the team. But I'm going to just ball-park that 30%-ish of people who come to us saying, "We're looking to embrace Kubernetes. We're going to move to Kubernetes, and we'd like your training or your help on the engineering side to get it done, a... |
\[20:29\] So here's a story... When I was, I don't know -- through most of my life, I've been a Linux user, until around 2006, I think it was. And I used to run Linux on all kinds of hardware I ran. I was one of those geeks in college that had a small network of Sun and different servers, and things like that. And for ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yes... |
**Tammer Saleh:** Seriously, it was about an hour day, every day, you know? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. Doesn't want to sleep. Linux doesn't sleep, does it? |
**Tammer Saleh:** Yeah. It's always working for you, you know? And I just flipped the table, I bought a Mac and I never looked back. To me, the analogy is that Kubernetes is that Linux on the laptop experience. There's always going to be problems, because you're always integrating two dozen different technologies to ge... |
When an engineer says, "Look, this is an important feature. The only way we can get this feature done is if you give the keys to AWS, because I need to provision some instances. We're going to configure those instances. We're going to run systemd on them. We're going to tie in all the logging and all the metrics into s... |
**Break:** \[22:52\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I think that you've heard this question many times before, but I still have to ask it. Do you think that Kubernetes would have been this popular and successful was it not for Docker? |
**Tammer Saleh:** Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, obviously, who knows? But from my point of view, I don't think Kubernetes would have gotten off the ground at all if it wasn't for Docker as a standard, right? We all know that Docker, as a company - they had an opportunity and they just couldn't white exec... |
I mean, I understand that Kubernetes inside Google was Borg and Omega, right? So obviously, it existed before Docker existed inside Google, but that's a completely different thing. In order to get community adoption, in order for this open source thing to flourish... If Kubernetes had been built as an open source produ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. I remember that age and period really well, when you had to run containers. It didn't matter how, didn't matter where, you just had to run containers. And Kubernetes wasn't a thing back then. |
**Tammer Saleh:** So few people even knew what containers were, right? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Exactly. They were like, "What? Containers what? Why would you want containers?" And I remember FreeBSD jails as well. I'm yet to start a FreeBSD jail successfully. I've started that project ten years ago when I got my first FreeBSD server, and I never got, to this day, to get a jail up and running be... |
**Tammer Saleh:** People say that, they're like, "Oh, Kubernetes dropped Docker, and it's no longer--" But that's my point, is that we shouldn't be thinking about the word Docker, we should be thinking about the standard that Docker created. So Kubernetes is still using Docker as a standard just as much as it did befor... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I think it's the container run time, but the clarification came afterwards, like "No, we're not dropping Docker support, because Docker means so many things." It became an ecosystem. And even now, the default container registry is the Docker Hub, right? So if you don't specify -- and that's also Docke... |
**Tammer Saleh:** \[28:24\] Turtles all the way down, and turtles in a circle even. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. |
**Tammer Saleh:** We actually get that question a lot, especially when we're talking to people about our workshops, because-- I guess the answer is sort of. You sort of need to be good with Docker in order to be good with Kubernetes. And what I mean by that is - our core Kubernetes workshop actually doesn't use Docker ... |
We talk about the Linux namespaces that are being used in Kubernetes when we talk about the different things you can share amongst containers, but you don't have to be great at crafting a Docker file, for example. And crafting a Docker file is an art. It is hard to create an efficient, really good Docker file, and to u... |
So most successful teams that I've seen, instead, centralize at least the skill of crafting Docker files, if not just using a single centralized Docker file across all of your applications. That's a thing you can do, right? So most teams I've seen have centralized that knowledge of how you create efficient Docker files... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** For me, Kubernetes makes a lot more sense, having started with Docker and having spent a couple of years in that ecosystem before Kubernetes was a thing. And that's very easy to ignore and forget, because my beginning was not Kubernetes; but many people, this is where they start, and they miss the who... |
So I think some Docker concepts - and as you've mentioned, it's not just a run time; there's so many other aspects of Docker - are really helpful to get started with Kubernetes. What other things do you think are helpful when you get started with Kubernetes? |
**Tammer Saleh:** In terms of knowledge, I think it's almost more important to have a deeper understanding of Linux networking, and just networking in general. From our experience, understanding how a cluster IP service works, for example, and all the IP tables stuff that happens there, understanding how load balancers... |
I think another thing that's important for a team who's getting started with-- well, first of all, let's talk about how you should adopt Kubernetes. First of all, even though I kind of pooh-poohed the value of the Kubernetes managed services like EKS, AKS, and GKE, you absolutely should use them. I mean, yes, you can d... |
\[32:08\] And if you have a choice, just to-- if you have your druthers about which Cloud to be on, GKE is by far the best experience, and Azure is by far the worst experience, not just in terms of Kubernetes, but just across the board, right? And AWS is what it is. So if you're on AWS, you're probably forced to be on ... |
Most of our customers have already spent so many innovation points when they are adopting Kubernetes. We kind of feel it's our mission, our job to help guide them towards more conservative solutions, and fewer moving parts... Because it's so tempting, once you've got Kubernetes, like "Ah, I guess I need Istio because I... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh yes. Yes. Most people forget about that, and install it, and that's it. Well, how are you going to upgrade it? And some components don't upgrade as well as others. And then that just opens a whole new world of problems, a whole new set of problems, like "Do you upgrade in place, or do you stand up ... |
**Tammer Saleh:** Right. Exactly. Exactly. You're like, "Where am I?" \[laughs\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Exactly. "I thought I understood networking." No, you don't. |
**Tammer Saleh:** Yeah. When you get to understand networking, and you see how Istio actually works, you're like, "Oh, my gosh..." And there are some components that are kind of tables stakes for a new cluster. A cert manager is a great example of just-- okay, everybody should have a cert manager running in their clust... |
Another example is Helm. Helm as a tool is amazing for installing third-party packages, something that somebody else has to maintain, right? You need Postgres? Then sure, use the official Postgres Helm Chart is the best way to do it, by far. Well, Postgres may be a bad example, because there's also operators that do an... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** How crazy is that? Oh, my goodness... |
**Tammer Saleh:** It's just crazy. It's crazy, right? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I'm glad it's not just me that thinks exactly the same way. I'm glad it's not just me. So I'm not the crazy one. Okay, good. So yeah, I have confirmation I'm those crazy. \[laughs\] Okay. |
**Tammer Saleh:** I don't know about that, but in this one aspect, you're not crazy. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Damn it. Almost. Almost. Almost. \[laughter\] |
**Tammer Saleh:** And the sad thing about it is they just don't know any better. They've got very simple applications, they're a small team, and they end up spending a lot of time building these Helm Charts to distribute them, and stuff. You don't need that. Customize, for example, is a great tool for managing your YAM... |
\[36:14\] I think when a team chooses Kubernetes, where it should focus on is automation; building out their own internal automation system, not just for managing the cluster, using Terraform, which is by far the best tool for that kind of stuff, but also for managing the resources inside the cluster. A CI/CD pipeline,... |
We offer engineering services, usually not for people who are just now adopting Kubernetes, unless you've got a very interesting application you're moving over, but you should be finding experts, either hiring Kubernetes experts, or finding a partner that you can integrate with your team, that will give you those subje... |
**Break:** \[37:53\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** You've touched on a really important point, namely the investment in automation. So if you use Kubernetes - that's great, especially if you need it; but you will have to invest in automation. And I think there's a set of principles which are really important that you have once you enter this world of ... |
**Tammer Saleh:** Absolutely. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** What other things are important? |
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