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[2562.14 --> 2565.54] So if there is a problem, that's one of the first places where you would look.
[2565.72 --> 2567.92] The new addition was integrating with Honeycomb.
[2568.08 --> 2568.30] Nice.
[2568.40 --> 2572.86] And Honeycomb gets the Fastly logs as well, which is the CDN.
[2572.90 --> 2575.54] Because it's not just Kubernetes, it's also what's in front of it.
[2575.68 --> 2577.02] And then what's behind it as well.
[2577.14 --> 2578.24] There's like all these components.
[2578.24 --> 2585.08] So having these different ways of understanding what is happening in your runtime, whether
[2585.08 --> 2588.76] it's Kubernetes or something else, is important regardless what the runtime is.
[2589.04 --> 2590.46] For example, getting exceptions.
[2590.82 --> 2596.96] That's like a really old thing, which we used to do when we used to SCP a Ruby code onto
[2596.96 --> 2598.22] or FTP it, right?
[2598.48 --> 2600.36] We still used to get like exceptions.
[2600.64 --> 2603.04] I forget like what the name of that tool was.
[2603.14 --> 2605.38] Do you remember what we used back in the day?
[2605.48 --> 2606.36] There was a number of them.
[2606.36 --> 2607.94] In fact, I actually wrote one of them.
[2608.24 --> 2608.64] Exactly.
[2608.88 --> 2609.84] That's why I'm asking you.
[2610.24 --> 2616.26] I wrote Hop Toad, which later became Airbrake and competed against Get Exceptional.
[2616.44 --> 2621.80] And hilariously, both Airbrake and Get Exceptional were purchased by the same person.
[2621.92 --> 2624.44] And now they're actually running under the same umbrella, which is kind of funny.
[2625.06 --> 2625.34] Right.
[2626.08 --> 2627.46] Yeah, you need all these things.
[2627.56 --> 2630.86] You need all these interfaces into understanding what your application is doing.
[2631.12 --> 2632.50] I'm really excited, by the way.
[2632.58 --> 2635.74] This is a bit of a tangent, but I'm really excited by all the stuff that's going on with
[2635.74 --> 2640.54] EBPF, especially with things like, I think it's New Relics Pixie.
[2640.94 --> 2648.78] So yeah, New Relics Pixie is really exciting because of the deep insight it can give in a
[2648.78 --> 2650.08] language agnostic way.
[2650.30 --> 2654.90] It's one of those things that you could see as a building block so that the developer does
[2654.90 --> 2658.34] not need access to kubectl exec, for example.
[2658.34 --> 2658.78] Exactly.
[2659.98 --> 2660.50] That's it.
[2660.60 --> 2665.68] That's, I think, what a successful ops side of running Kubernetes looks like, where you
[2665.68 --> 2666.80] don't have to get there.
[2667.06 --> 2671.66] As a developer, for example, Blue Green, if you do that properly, and if you have all
[2671.66 --> 2676.02] the redundancies in place, even when something goes down, the end user doesn't see that.
[2676.32 --> 2677.86] And it doesn't matter that it runs Kubernetes.
[2678.32 --> 2683.02] And when it comes to debugging it, well, if you're a small team, and let's say the problem
[2683.02 --> 2684.32] is in Heroku, what happens?
[2684.56 --> 2685.46] Do you debug Heroku?
[2685.72 --> 2685.98] No.
[2685.98 --> 2687.06] No way.
[2687.48 --> 2690.70] You don't get the keys to Heroku to debug the stack, right?
[2691.26 --> 2692.82] It just gets scheduled somewhere else.
[2693.02 --> 2694.06] And that's how that gets solved.
[2694.70 --> 2699.34] So what I'm saying is having that visibility into how things run is really important.
[2699.92 --> 2703.96] And if that's your experience and your interface, that's great.
[2704.06 --> 2708.32] I think that's one of the principles that are really important, regardless what the runtime
[2708.32 --> 2708.74] is.
[2708.92 --> 2710.54] And if it's Kubernetes, so be it.
[2710.74 --> 2714.94] If you're going to be using something like Kubernetes, you need to invest doubly strongly
[2714.94 --> 2718.46] in observability and in all of that metrics.
[2718.46 --> 2725.44] But I'd argue that you need that just as much, if not more, if you're not using Kubernetes.
[2725.44 --> 2732.30] If you're trying to do raw AWS, for example, it's even harder to build all that observability
[2732.30 --> 2733.48] infrastructure in place.
[2733.48 --> 2738.74] But it's absolutely, if you're just moving into the cloud world and moving into this whole
[2738.74 --> 2745.50] type of world where automation and where it's a cloudy world that's focused on automation,
[2745.50 --> 2751.06] you need that observability, not only for your own ability to debug, but eventually you're
[2751.06 --> 2754.00] going to feed that observability back into your automation, right?
[2754.06 --> 2759.48] You're going to do automated blue-green rollouts where you want the automation to, over the course
[2759.48 --> 2763.88] of maybe a day, to look for errors, look for reduced metrics, and to roll it back.
[2764.24 --> 2764.80] Yeah, that's right.
[2765.04 --> 2771.14] And I know that I read ops and infrastructure and that side of things, but our Kubernetes
[2771.14 --> 2773.70] setup, it's simple on purpose.
[2774.06 --> 2775.50] And some things could be better.
[2775.60 --> 2776.80] It can always be improved.
[2776.92 --> 2777.48] We have it public.
[2777.76 --> 2781.94] Anyone can check it out to see how we run and how we set up and which components we pick.
[2782.48 --> 2783.66] CertManager is part of it.
[2783.76 --> 2785.42] External DNS, if you ingress Nginx.
[2785.48 --> 2785.66] Yes.
[2785.78 --> 2786.28] All the stock stuff.
[2786.28 --> 2788.18] External DNS, also absolutely necessary.
[2788.18 --> 2788.88] It's part of it.
[2789.02 --> 2792.92] And the Kubernetes is managed, so we don't deploy on bare metal servers, even though
[2792.92 --> 2796.98] that's become simpler over the years since we embarked on this journey.
[2797.56 --> 2800.62] And there's other options which we will also be exploring.
[2801.28 --> 2806.96] So whether you do Kubernetes or something else, there will be certain operational concerns which
[2806.96 --> 2807.68] will be difficult.
[2808.06 --> 2812.84] And there's a level of maturity that you need to have on the team to navigate them.
[2812.84 --> 2815.68] And I think that's what is important to almost like reiterate.
[2815.68 --> 2815.82] Great.
[2816.34 --> 2820.58] And in certain cases, like Istio, I'm sure some things it makes better.
[2820.68 --> 2822.10] But networking, I don't know.
[2822.16 --> 2824.22] I think networking gets more complicated with Istio.
[2824.52 --> 2827.64] And if you're okay with a trade-off, maybe it's a good one to make.
[2827.88 --> 2829.10] But I wouldn't.
[2829.24 --> 2830.24] We haven't chosen Istio.
[2830.40 --> 2831.10] So there you go.
[2831.24 --> 2831.74] I agree with you.
[2831.80 --> 2832.24] 100%.
[2832.24 --> 2838.42] Talking about Kubernetes and how we run it, do you recommend a big cluster or do you recommend
[2838.42 --> 2839.48] smaller clusters?
[2840.06 --> 2840.40] Oh, yeah.
[2840.82 --> 2846.52] So when Kubernetes first came out, I mean, first of all, short answer is many small clusters.
[2846.76 --> 2852.70] The long answer is when Kubernetes first came out, CIOs looked at it and said, oh, this
[2852.70 --> 2853.14] is great.
[2853.14 --> 2858.50] We can, you know, we're probably using 20% of our CPU and memory across all of our VMs