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[2188.08 --> 2193.60] like Terraform, which is by far the best tool for that kind of stuff, but also for managing
[2193.60 --> 2195.46] the resources inside the cluster.
[2195.46 --> 2200.34] You know, a CI, CD pipeline, maybe using like GitOps at the end or whatever.
[2200.62 --> 2203.34] That's the fundamentals that your team should focus on.
[2203.38 --> 2206.56] Because once you have that, all the other changes become simpler.
[2206.68 --> 2212.66] And frankly, that automation is the half of the value prop of Kubernetes because the Kubernetes
[2212.66 --> 2214.20] API is so good.
[2214.68 --> 2217.16] It's so easy to automate stuff through Kubernetes.
[2217.16 --> 2222.44] And if you're not investing in that automation, you're wasting that value.
[2222.88 --> 2227.12] And then obviously, I mean, I run a company, so I should say that like, if you're just choosing
[2227.12 --> 2230.20] Kubernetes, you should be looking for training.
[2230.46 --> 2233.88] And I love our workshops, obviously, but there's others, right?
[2233.94 --> 2239.12] But you do need to invest in your engineer's knowledge because they are going to have to
[2239.12 --> 2240.40] debug it when it goes sideways.
[2240.76 --> 2245.24] And you don't want them floundering and using Stack Overflow in the middle of an outage.
[2245.24 --> 2250.64] If you can find, we offer engineering services, usually not for people who are just now adopting
[2250.64 --> 2254.42] Kubernetes, unless you've got a very interesting application you're moving over.
[2254.70 --> 2261.02] But you should be finding experts, either hiring Kubernetes experts or finding a partner that
[2261.02 --> 2265.74] you can integrate with your team that will give you those subject matter experts for Kubernetes,
[2265.92 --> 2271.60] because you're going to save a lot more time and money in the long run if you do that early on.
[2275.24 --> 2287.82] What's up, shippers?
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[2343.66 --> 2366.26] You've touched on a really important point, namely the investment in automation.
[2366.90 --> 2371.14] So if you use Kubernetes, that's great, especially if you need it.
[2371.14 --> 2373.48] But you will have to invest in automation.
[2374.02 --> 2378.94] And I think there's a set of principles which are really important that you have once you
[2378.94 --> 2385.22] enter this world of cloud native, Kubernetes, because otherwise making choices will be really
[2385.22 --> 2385.66] difficult.
[2386.22 --> 2391.44] Automation is really important once you are in the world of Kubernetes, in the world of cloud
[2391.44 --> 2391.84] native.
[2392.00 --> 2392.30] Absolutely.
[2392.30 --> 2394.10] What other things are important?
[2394.76 --> 2399.08] Well, I mean, if you're going to move into that world, again, as we said before, the complication
[2399.08 --> 2400.12] is just massive.
[2400.12 --> 2403.98] I mean, there's so much that you're pinning together, that you're tying together.
[2404.28 --> 2410.16] I think that it's important if you're going to do that, that you invest in education in
[2410.16 --> 2413.90] your engineers so that they can understand this complexity.
[2414.88 --> 2420.04] And depending on the size of the company that you are, depending on the size of your engineering
[2420.04 --> 2426.42] team, many companies invest in what we're calling internal platforms.
[2426.42 --> 2430.38] And you can just view that as an extension of the automation.
[2430.38 --> 2436.32] It's almost a spectrum of how sophisticated these internal platforms get and kind of what
[2436.32 --> 2437.88] model they use.
[2438.04 --> 2446.42] All the way from on the lowest level side is just the platform team providing maybe centralized
[2446.42 --> 2449.46] Docker file, maybe a centralized Helm chart.
[2449.64 --> 2452.64] That's one of the few times we've seen Helm used internally in a good way.
[2452.64 --> 2458.68] And a centralized CI CD system so that the application developers can plug their app into the Helm chart
[2458.68 --> 2460.20] using that Docker file.
[2460.84 --> 2466.04] And it gets automatically deployed to all the various environments and such.
[2466.58 --> 2470.52] Then on the other side of the spectrum is implementing a full Heroku, right?
[2470.52 --> 2477.50] Where the developers are insulated 100% from the details of Kubernetes and they're given a really
[2477.50 --> 2478.34] nice interface.
[2478.68 --> 2481.30] We have never seen that done successfully, just to be clear.
[2481.48 --> 2488.48] Like I've never seen that work where the developers did not still have to understand the intricacies
[2488.48 --> 2492.24] of Kubernetes because at some point they got to break glass in case of emergency.
[2492.78 --> 2492.88] Yeah.
[2493.14 --> 2494.24] Because you have to run it, right?
[2494.38 --> 2496.06] You've built it, but you have to run it.
[2496.22 --> 2496.80] And guess what?
[2496.82 --> 2497.66] It's running on Kubernetes.
[2497.66 --> 2502.84] So if you don't know how to debug it or even understand what is happening, good luck to you.
[2503.06 --> 2508.46] And if your platform team is so good that they have actually built a full interface on top of
[2508.46 --> 2513.20] Kubernetes that takes care of all the details and the application developer only needs to interact
[2513.20 --> 2515.30] with that interface, that platform they built.
[2515.68 --> 2516.44] I've got news for you.
[2516.46 --> 2517.68] You're probably in the wrong industry.
[2517.88 --> 2521.30] Like you should spin that off and clear house, right?
[2521.58 --> 2526.20] Oh, you gave me an idea because even though we use Kubernetes to run all of changelog,
[2526.20 --> 2528.00] the developers, they don't know that.
[2528.20 --> 2531.98] They still just get push and all the automation takes care of the rest.
[2532.30 --> 2536.54] So we were using Docker Swarm before and we were using Docker before.
[2536.70 --> 2540.20] The experience, as far as developers are concerned, it has never changed.
[2540.42 --> 2542.22] It has always been get push.
[2542.54 --> 2544.22] Like, isn't that the heroic experience?
[2544.34 --> 2545.18] Get push and it runs.
[2546.18 --> 2546.50] That is.
[2546.60 --> 2546.88] That is.
[2547.26 --> 2548.58] But what happens when there's a fire?
[2548.76 --> 2550.20] How do the developers debug when...
[2550.72 --> 2551.34] They don't.
[2551.38 --> 2551.64] Okay.
[2551.64 --> 2552.78] They don't.
[2553.72 --> 2556.48] So around that, we have a set of services.
[2556.70 --> 2561.66] Like, for example, Grafana Cloud, where we send all the logs, all the metrics.