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So what comes next for Echoes? The next six months, what are like the big items on your list? I think list is a poor word, but you know what I mean. |
**Arnaud Porterie:** I mean, there's literally an infinite number of things I have in mind. Again, we're trying to be focused, and that means we're trying to listen to our users more than we listen to ourselves. |
The most important bits right now are things such as being able to tie outcomes to metrics. We've talked a lot about how we allocate our efforts and the Why behind work, but if you want to measure impact, then you have to tie this back to observable results. That's what we're working on right now, to make sure that you... |
\[56:05\] Other things that we're working on are the very greedy, boring details of any early company; things like integrating with HR systems. Super-fancy, super-shiny... They're the thing that every engineer is dreaming of doing... But still, it has to be done, because this is what the life of a company is. |
And then where we're gonna go from there in the future - again, tons of ideas; where the market is actually gonna take us is up to be seen, but we're collecting a data that didn't exist anywhere else, which is why we're doing things in the first place, and I think there's a lot of potential in this in a variety of diff... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I'm really excited about Echoes itself - about the idea, about the person, now that I got to know you a little bit more... I can see so many similarities and so many challenges, and so many lessons learned... But also, I see the intent behind Echoes, and that attracts me. I wanna see what happens next... |
**Arnaud Porterie:** Well, me too. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I really want you to be part of Changelog. I would like to use Echoes within Changelog, so that we can gain visibility into how we do things, and what we do... Because as you mentioned, our time is super-constrained, and then my time is the most constrained on... I can count the hours that I can dedic... |
And as a listener, if I had to take away one thing from this conversation, what would you like them to take away? |
**Arnaud Porterie:** I think the biggest takeaway for me, and the thing that I hope listeners will agree on is that - I think engineering management overall is still in its infancy. Our industry is young, we're still trying to figure out what are the recipes that work and the recipes that don't. The one thing we know f... |
And yeah, truly, I hope that the takeaway is really that the future of most businesses depends on us, and it's up to us now to make it more efficient, and more pleasant for our industry. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I'm really looking forward to that. I'm really looking forward to what you do next, Arnaud. Seriously. |
**Arnaud Porterie:** Cool. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And on that node, thank you very much. It has been a pleasure, and I'm looking forward to next time. Thank you. |
**Arnaud Porterie:** Thank you very much for having me. |
• Platforms and platform thinking |
• Colin Humphreys' experience with Cloud Foundry and building platforms |
• Shift from project to product mindset in the industry |
• Platform-as-a-product approach and taking product methodology to the platform layer |
• Gerhard Lazu's unfulfilled promise from 7 years ago |
• Crossing the platform gap and its challenges |
• The concept of the "platform gap" as described by Paula Kennedy |
• Two approaches to addressing the platform gap: organization change (team topologies) and treating platforms as products |
• Pre-recording talks for conferences and the benefits and drawbacks of this approach |
• Chris Hedley's background in application development and his experience with Cloud Foundry |
• The potential for platforms to reduce organizational friction and enable teams to focus on delivering value |
• The limitations of trying to create a single platform that fits all organizations |
• The importance of tailoring platforms to specific business needs and industry requirements |
• The need for platform developers to take ownership of building and operating their own platforms |
• The current state of cloud-native ecosystems being too complex for many users |
• The desire for a simplified PaaS experience, but with the ability to customize and compose it to fit individual needs |
• Syntasso's framework, Kratix, which helps organizations build tailored platforms for their business needs |
• Difficulty in managing complex cloud-native landscapes with multiple Kubernetes clusters |
• Limitations of traditional operators technology for building and distributing software across multiple clusters |
• Introduction of Kratix framework to address the problem of providing a platform API across multiple Kubernetes clusters |
• Concept of "promises" to deliver services as needed by application teams, prioritized through collaboration between platform and application teams |
• Defining "promises" as abstractions above operators to offer things as a service from the platform team |
• Collaborating with application teams to understand their needs and defining custom resource definitions |
• Creating promises that encapsulate complexity and provide sane defaults for developers |
• Using Kratix's promise framework to deliver services such as Java stacks or Jenkins |
• Tying concepts together through platform-as-a-product thinking, collaboration, and ongoing lightweight interaction between teams |
• Maintaining the product lifecycle of promises, including testing and upgrading operators and resources |
• Templating system discussion |
• Introduction to Kratix framework and its capabilities |
• Comparison with Helm and other templating languages |
• Day 1 vs day N experiences with Kratix |
• Role of operators in maintaining and upgrading systems |
• Importance of versioning in Kubernetes API |
• Benefits and drawbacks of combining multiple schedulers and technologies |
• Introduction to Flux and its role within GitOps toolkit |
• Argo CD vs Flux and the role of the GitOps toolkit in Kubernetes |
• Custom resource definitions (CRDs) and controllers/operators in K8s |
• Testing Kratix, including use of Ginkgo-based test suite and property-based testing |
• Value of K8s native technologies, such as Flux, over non-K8s-native technologies like Concourse |
• Syntasso's experience with Kratix development, including limited CI/CD capabilities |
• Complexity of integration tests for CRDs and Kubernetes |
• Use of KinD and Kubebuilder v3 to simplify testing and development |
• Challenges of balancing speed and investment in testing as the company grows |
• The small team size and structure of the company (CEO, CTO, and a small engineering team) |
• Future plans and constraints, including potential scaling of the engineering team and consultancy side |
• Kratix is a software solution that enables organizational change through the implementation of Team Topologies and platform development |
• Customers are using Kratix to perform a Reverse Conway Maneuver, creating platform teams with great interactions with application teams |
• Syntasso is investing in scaling up to meet demand for Kratix, hiring people, and growing as a company |
• The key takeaway from the conversation is that people need platforms to help them go faster, and Syntasso wants to help build differentiated and valuable platforms through Kratix |
• The goal of Kratix is to provide a framework for building platform development, making it easier for teams to create customized platforms on Kubernetes |
• Discussion of Chris Hedley being the one who provides honest opinions |
• Colin Humphreys confirming Chris's reputation for honesty |
• Gerhard Lazu mentioning Team Topologies and wanting to read it |
• Paula Kennedy recommending Team Topologies as good and practical |
• Gerhard Lazu expressing interest in trying out Kratix (described as a system) |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So today I'm joined by my favorite startup team: Chris Hedley, Colin Humphreys and Paula Kennedy. Welcome! |
**Colin Humphreys:** That's a warm welcome, Gerhard. You must only know one startup team... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Well, you're not very far from the truth... \[laughter\] Because - why do I say "my favorite", right? So seven years ago I had a platform talk with Colin, which convinced me on the spot to join the team, to join the team, to join the CloudCredo startup. And that's why I say you're my favorite startup ... |
**Colin Humphreys:** Oh, thank you, Gerhard. That's very kind... Can I say you are unequivocally my favorite podcast host? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And this is your first podcast, so yes... \[laughs\] |
**Colin Humphreys:** You are absolutely my favorite. You are also my least favorite at the same time, because you are the only one I know... But yes, you are absolutely, unequivocally - like, canonical truth - you're my favorite one, Gerhard. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[03:59\] Thank you, Colin. I appreciate that. Thank you. But I'm wondering, do you remember the platform talk that we had seven years ago, Colin? Do you still remember it? |
**Colin Humphreys:** We were together for a long period of time, for those seven years, which in particular -- because let's be straight here, Gerhard, I talk a lot about platforms, to many people's great cost... |
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