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**Gerhard Lazu:** I know you do. |
**Colin Humphreys:** ...in terms of time. But I do speak a lot about platforms. So which particular platform talk are you talking about? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** The one that convinced me to join CloudCredo. This was the OpenCredo office, you met me the first time, and you were sharing the vision that you had about platforms, and why you thought Cloud Foundry at the time was amazing... |
**Colin Humphreys:** I couldn't have been at the CloudCredo office, because we squatted in with -- |
**Paula Kennedy:** No, the Open Credo one. |
**Colin Humphreys:** Oh, the Open Credo office. Yes, we definitely squatted there. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** The Open Credo office, yes. |
**Colin Humphreys:** That was seven years ago, so that was arguably kind of a midpoint in a journey that we've all been on for a really long time... And it's been very interesting. I think, I could have had that self-awareness and that reflection; we know we're near the end of that journey. There's a huge swelling, a r... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I can see that happening. I can definitely see that happening. I also am very glad that we're recording this conversation, so we can listen back to it seven years from now... And I wish we had recorded our conversation seven years ago. But what I do remember is a talk that you gave at the OpenCredo of... |
Now, we'll come back to this, but you asked me to do something in that talk, which I haven't done, and I will do during this recording. And I'll explain it to the others a bit later. So seven years ago you asked me to do something; I didn't forget, I just couldn't do it at the time. It's coming; just be prepared. \[lau... |
**Paula Kennedy:** So you've waited seven years to do this thing, |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I think, yes. \[laughs\] |
**Colin Humphreys:** That's impressive patience. |
**Paula Kennedy:** Wow... |
**Colin Humphreys:** I'm intensely curious about what it's gonna be... And I wonder if it's gonna be worth the wait. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** It will be. |
**Chris Hedley:** They do say revenge is best served cold. Seven years is a long time to cool off, so I'm looking forward to this. |
**Colin Humphreys:** Seven years is absolutely zero. Zero degrees Kelvin revenge, so I wonder how this is gonna go. But Gerhard, you need to let us know when you do the thing that you promised seven years ago, and haven't been able to do in the intermediate period. I'm somewhat terrified now; slight sense of trepidatio... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Trust me, it will be great. It will be great. |
**Colin Humphreys:** You mentioned the talk, and you mentioned how I started off the talks a while back, talking about projects I'd worked on the past... And I use that word "project" very specifically, where people were wasting huge amounts of money. And the particular one we're talking about here was a 12-million pou... |
\[08:13\] That product orientation, learning about your users, iterating towards their needs, and "you write it, you run it" kind of mentality with the teams that deliver those products - that's been a change that swept through every level. And people commonly talk about that in terms of the application teams. "Oh, our... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I'm really glad that you mentioned that, Colin, because that ties in really nicely with something that Paula did recently. I think the equivalent of "Let's build a data center" seven years ago today means "Let's build a platform." And two years later you still haven't shipped anything; you've just bui... |
**Paula Kennedy:** I did. Yes, DevOps Enterprise Summit, yes. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And the talk was about crossing the platform gap. Can you tell us about it? |
**Paula Kennedy:** Yeah. So I was very lucky to have my talk selected. And what it was really about was - as Colin mentioned, it was very much about what we've seen in the last few years. And even though we have been talking about the challenges of teams trying to get from kind of the infrastructure layer to deploying ... |
There's a fantastic blog about it on our website, and I talked about it as well, as you mentioned... But it's basically like "How can we make it easier for teams to cross that platform gap?" And the thing I talked about at DevOps Enterprise Summit was there's two parts to it. One is about organization change, which tea... |
And then the second part that I talked about specifically, which Colin mentioned, was platform as a product. So when you have your platform team in place, what should they be doing? What are the skills that they need? What are the things that they should focus on? Treating their platform as an internal product, making ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[12:17\] So if it's pre-recorded, does it mean that I could watch the talk? Is it online? |
**Paula Kennedy:** It is. So there's a whole video library... I think what you need to do is -- I think you can get two weeks free. You can sign up -- you sort of sign up for a membership and you get two weeks to watch as many talks as you want for free. So you could go watch it. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Right. Okay. |
**Paula Kennedy:** What was interesting was I did so many takes of it... This is just a weird story, but - I did so many takes, because I wanted to get it perfect. And I think when you give a live talk, you have at it, and if you mess it up, it's done. When you're pre-recording, you're like "Oh, I messed that up", and ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, it makes sense... |
**Paula Kennedy:** ...but yeah. I enjoyed it. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. I know what you mean. I used to do things like that before I discovered video editing and editing my talks. That just changed my life. \[laughter\] So you're right... You have to also -- like, voice-over, that's amazing, especially for showing something... But that also takes time. |
You're right, I think not having conferences in-person, and having talks pre-recorded, it just makes certain things difficult. And this definitely is one of them. But I'm sure it's better than giving the talk from the U.K, on a U.S. timezone, and be awake at 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock in the morning... So yeah, at least th... |
Where do you stand when it comes to platforms, Chris? What is your perspective, and how do you see this space? |
**Chris Hedley:** That's a very interesting question, Gerhard. I guess I used to be, if you go far enough back in time to my pre-CloudCredo days, I guess I was on the application teams. I was an application developer. I was writing business-facing applications to serve industries, the banking industry, the sports betti... |
I looked at Cloud Foundry, I saw an app being pushed into it, I saw cf push for the first time, I saw cf create service and cf bind work for the first time... And this was a very, very early version of CF. I don't even think it'd been open sourced at this time. I think I looked at that platform and I said to myself - I... |
\[15:49\] But to answer your question directly, I think it's the forced multiplier that I've observed greater platforms can have on organizations and on development teams, to be able to build a platform and offer it to a set of users and just reduce the number of things that those users have to worry about, just to rem... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. |
**Colin Humphreys:** I wonder if we should maybe all think about the elephant in the room... So for those people who are listening, four of us are all actually standing in one room and we all have one hand each on an elephant, and that elephant has Cloud Foundry written on it. So we've touched on it a few times... And ... |
I think, from my personal perspective, I think the thing that I really didn't understand enough at the time, and now I've grown to understand, is the notion of -- in fact, maybe it's sitting right in front of me... You have application teams, and you have platform teams. And we talk about those in terms of, in glowing ... |
Now, this, in hindsight, was short-sighted, because we actually learned that the 80/20 rule really fit well. Nearly everyone was doing 80% of stuff that's kind of normal, and 20% that's differentiating. But over time, you start to talk to enough customers, and we spoke to -- you know, at Pivotal we had hundreds, like 3... |
And then you've got vendors still trying to build the one platform to rule them all, and no one's addressing platform developers, or platform development responsibilities of a platform team. How do we build and curate a great platform? How do we develop that, how do we operate that, how do we monitor that, how do we me... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[20:24\] I'm really glad that you mentioned that, for a couple of reasons. The primary one - and I think it's the only one which I'm going to mentioned - is that people want that one Kubernetes experience. They look at the cloud-native ecosystem and they say "This is too confusing. Give me the versio... |
So what are the principles that you're trying to convey in this platform, that you're trying to embed in this platform? So once you know what those principles are, with what is important to you - and this, by the way, is different across different industries, across even different teams. |
So once we establish what those things are, how do you build that one platform, which by the way, it's only going to be your platform; I don't think anyone else will be able to use it... Maybe your competitors, but they're busy doing other things, by the way... |
**Colin Humphreys:** Agreed, yeah. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So do you think about this differently, Paula? |
**Paula Kennedy:** Well, it's interesting, because there's the Kelsey Hightower tweet, which is basically around everybody wants a PaaS; they just want to build it themselves. And I think that's where we've tried to learn the lessons from Cloud Foundry. People loved the cf push experience. They loved being able to writ... |
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