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• Clustered systems make this process even more complicated |
• Packaging AirLong VM with configuration management tools is challenging |
• RabbitMQ's plugin system and microservices architecture contribute to complexity |
• Containerization has helped simplify packaging and deployment |
• Kubernetes cluster operators can help manage complex deployments |
• Kubernetes' challenges with stateful distributed systems |
• Limitations of RabbitMQ in containers and Kubernetes environments |
• Hot code reloading feature not available in RabbitMQ, but potentially achievable through bug-fix only patch releases |
• Benefits of hot code reloading for users and developers |
• Open discussion on release engineering practices and user experience |
• Goodbyes spoken multiple times |
• Timing and duration of goodbyes vary |
• No other conversation or topics discussed |
[0.08 --> 5.72] Hey, how's it going? I'm your host, Gerhard Lzu, and you're listening to Ship It, a podcast |
[5.72 --> 11.66] about getting your best ideas into the world and seeing what happens. We talk about code, |
[11.96 --> 18.00] ops, infrastructure, and the people that make it happen. Yes, we focus on the people because |
[18.00 --> 23.34] everything else is an implementation detail. Core infrastructure is the type of software |
[23.34 --> 29.20] that many services depend on. If it breaks, everything gets affected. Think an operating |
[29.20 --> 33.80] system update, which looks good at first, but then everything starts getting slower by the hour. |
[34.30 --> 39.24] Maybe there is a messaging system at the heart of a stack, which is trusted with billions of |
[39.24 --> 44.26] transactions per day, and one upgrade later, transactions start failing randomly for no |
[44.26 --> 49.60] obvious reason. One aspect which makes debugging this really hard is that sometimes different |
[49.60 --> 55.70] versions of software simply don't work well together. Combine some enterprise OS with an older |
[55.70 --> 62.24] rock-solid Linux kernel, and a code VM, which has some IO optimizations a decade younger. |
[62.76 --> 68.38] And you could be looking at weeks of debugging. I know because I did just this a few months ago, |
[68.44 --> 73.12] and it wasn't easy to get to the bottom of it. Today, we talk with Jean-Sébastien Padron, |
[73.48 --> 79.26] a RabbitMQ and FreeBSD contributor, about the importance of good release engineering for core |
[79.26 --> 85.16] infrastructure. As the years went by, it became clearer to us just how important this is. That's |
[85.16 --> 90.38] right. Both myself and Jean-Sébastien have been part of the Core RabbitMQ team for many years now. |
[90.70 --> 95.46] We have built some of the biggest CI-CD pipelines, checked the show notes to see one example, |
[95.92 --> 101.40] wrote and shipped some great code together, while breaking and fixing many things in the process. |
[101.64 --> 108.72] We have been wrestling with this topic since 2016. Jean-Sébastien has some great FreeBSD stories to share as well, |
[108.72 --> 115.58] and he has a very interesting perspective on shipping graphic card drivers. Oh, and by the way, |
[115.58 --> 122.16] it's probably our fault why your remote car key stopped working that afternoon. It will all make |
[122.16 --> 127.24] sense after you listen to this. Big thanks to our partners Fastly, LaunchDarkly, and Linode. |
[127.46 --> 134.16] Our bandwidth is provided by Fastly, learn more at Fastly.com, feature flags powered by LaunchDarkly.com, |
[134.16 --> 140.90] and we love Linode. They keep it fast and simple. Check them out at linode.com forward slash changelog. |
[140.90 --> 153.00] What's up, Shippers? This episode is brought to you by our friends at Fly. Fly lets you deploy your apps |
[153.00 --> 160.08] and databases close to your users in minutes. You can run your Ruby, Go, Node, Deno, Python, |
[160.52 --> 166.70] or Elixir app and databases all over the world. No ops required. Fly's vision is that all apps should run |
[166.70 --> 171.18] closer to their users. They have generous free tiers for most services, so you can easily prove to |
[171.18 --> 175.76] yourself and your team that the Fly platform has everything you need to run your app globally. |
[176.18 --> 180.82] Learn more at fly.io slash changelog, and check out the speedrun and their excellent docs. |
[181.24 --> 184.56] Again, fly.io slash changelog, or check the show notes for links. |
[187.56 --> 191.68] We are going to ship in three, two, one. |
[191.68 --> 212.52] So, end of 2016, I have joined this new team of developers, and they were the RabbitMQ core developers. |
[212.98 --> 219.02] And the context of that meeting was the RabbitMQ team summit, which is something that used to happen |
[219.02 --> 225.70] every six months, twice a year. But that stopped, obviously, since the pandemic and all the changes, |
[225.82 --> 231.32] all the recent changes. The one person over the years that I really enjoyed working with is Jean |
[231.32 --> 238.86] Sébastien. And if you're wondering who you can thank for all the makefile madness that I'm leaving |
[238.86 --> 244.84] in my trail, it's Jean Sébastien. He's the one that introduced me to make, and the rest is history, |
[244.84 --> 251.10] as they say. Not only that, but he also introduced me to the RabbitMQ code base, who were like pairing |
[251.10 --> 257.02] buddies for a long time. And I found about build system, about the pipeline, about many things. |
[257.74 --> 262.44] So, for the listeners, I mean, you've made it so far to this episode, and you're still wondering, |
[262.78 --> 267.98] what do I do? For those that don't know yet, this is where I tell you that my day job is to work |
[267.98 --> 274.66] on RabbitMQ. I'm a RabbitMQ core developer, same as Jean Sébastien. So, welcome, Jean Sébastien, |
[275.30 --> 278.06] joining me in this new world. Thank you very much. |
[279.04 --> 284.00] You're very welcome. I was looking forward to this for a long time, actually. And one of the topics |
[284.00 --> 289.72] that are very relevant to this show are release engineering. And this is something that both you |
[289.72 --> 295.12] and me have been thinking about for years in the context of RabbitMQ, and have been working on it |
[295.12 --> 301.52] in different capacities. And my first question is, why do you care about release engineering? |
[301.52 --> 308.92] I think it's an important part of a project, and in particular, an open source project. |
[309.76 --> 319.38] The first reason is that you want to ship your code to end users to help them solve their own |
[319.38 --> 329.94] problems. You want those users are happy with what you ship. And I think that to make that happen, |
[330.50 --> 338.90] you need to communicate well with those users, explain what you ship to them, like that new release |
[338.90 --> 346.70] contains these new features, that bug you hit, now it's fixed. You might be interested in that |
[346.70 --> 354.76] security vulnerabilities. And you also want that those users give you feedback on what you shipped, |
[354.90 --> 362.54] because that's how you can also improve your code base and make the next version better than the |
[362.54 --> 369.48] current one. So yeah, that's what I would expect from a good release engineering. And I say that it's |
[369.48 --> 376.02] important for open source products, because you do not have any paying customers most of the time. |
[376.02 --> 387.68] So nobody is pressured to use what you produce and ship. So it's in the interest of the end users and |
[387.68 --> 390.86] you to have that great communication when you want to release something. |
[391.48 --> 395.52] I think that relationship is really important, right? The relationship of an open source developer |
[395.52 --> 401.08] with a user of open source. And that has gone through many ups and downs, I think, in the years. |
[401.08 --> 405.86] I don't know exactly where it stands now. But it is becoming increasingly important for these projects |
[405.86 --> 412.10] to somehow and products to somehow make money. Now, while release engineering for an open source |
[412.10 --> 418.14] product may not seem as important at first, because it's free, so why care, right? Actually, |
[418.20 --> 424.98] the opposite is true. The developers care a lot about these things. And once you have a certain |
[424.98 --> 433.28] number of users, which RabbitMQ has, these things become important. Because bugs can affect many users. |
[434.02 --> 439.62] And one of the ways that I think about RabbitMQ is a core infrastructure component. Typically, |
[439.76 --> 446.30] RabbitMQ is used in all sorts of systems, cars, even factories. You wouldn't expect payment systems. |
[446.48 --> 451.46] You don't even know where it's used. Only when it goes down, or only when there is a problem. |
[451.46 --> 456.50] Yeah. And this is not great. And from that perspective, it becomes increasingly important |
[456.50 --> 462.76] to communicate changes well, to be careful with the changes that get introduced, because many |
[462.76 --> 469.76] things can end up being broken. And usually, what tends to happen if developers are not careful about |
[469.76 --> 473.52] this aspect is that end users, they stop upgrading. Yeah. |
[473.68 --> 479.30] Right? I mean, if you experience problems or similar problems a couple of times, you're more reluctant |
[479.30 --> 486.54] to upgrade. Yeah, you will probably try to find alternatives to that project. |
[486.54 --> 486.90] That's right. Yes. |
[486.90 --> 494.46] Because this one was free. I mean, free. It didn't cost you any money. So you do not lose anything by |
[494.46 --> 501.16] switching. So, I mean, again, I view RabbitMQ as core infrastructure. But what does core infrastructure |
[501.16 --> 501.78] mean to you? |
[502.20 --> 509.20] I think I have the same definition as you. Core infrastructure is a component you rely on. |
[509.30 --> 516.38] To provide your service, for instance, if you're a company or even as someone at home, |
[516.64 --> 524.24] I rely on some core infrastructure just to run my own computers, even if it's not for work. |
[524.38 --> 531.80] I mean, for instance, as a company in the context of RabbitMQ, for instance, I expect that it's |
[531.80 --> 541.38] crystal clear what I get from RabbitMQ so that I'm confident when I want to deploy it, upgrade it, |
[541.38 --> 550.96] so that I can build my own business on top of that component. And this won't fall apart because of |
[550.96 --> 557.24] that core component, core infrastructure. And that's the same for any operating systems. |
[557.24 --> 568.64] Nobody likes when the operating system crashes. So, yeah, that's why we call them core infrastructure, in fact. |
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