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[569.12 --> 574.24] Yeah. So I know that you have experience with RabbitMQ, but I don't know as much about your experience with |
[574.24 --> 579.20] FreePSD because you're not just a RabbitMQ contributor, but also a FreePSD contributor. |
[579.20 --> 586.44] Yes. So you have seen both sides of a messaging system, such as RabbitMQ, and an operating system, |
[586.58 --> 589.36] such as FreePSD. So how do the two compare? |
[590.06 --> 598.20] So an operating system is like a very generic tool. You don't expect it to be the best in a specific |
[598.20 --> 606.68] area, but you expect it to behave well and be at least good in all areas. |
[606.68 --> 614.18] RabbitMQ is a bit different in that regard because we want to provide a very specific |
[614.18 --> 623.76] service in RabbitMQ. Also, FreePSD, it's an old project with old manners and it's a big community. |
[624.02 --> 631.58] So it takes time for things and workflows to evolve. But in the end, we also want to ship |
[631.58 --> 640.44] an operating system, which will work for end users who use it at home and companies who build their |
[640.44 --> 647.14] businesses on top of it. So yeah, that's why the release engineering in FreePSD is also very |
[647.14 --> 653.46] important. The goal is the same. How it is done is different. How you test things, obviously, |
[653.46 --> 655.22] you cannot compare both projects. |
[656.32 --> 665.40] So can you give me an example from your experience of release engineering gone wrong in both projects, |
[665.84 --> 668.16] if there is such a thing? I'm sure there is. |
[668.80 --> 674.94] So starting with RabbitMQ, I remember one release. I don't remember the version number, |
[674.94 --> 683.30] but at the same time we publish release, a new version of RabbitMQ with both a security bug fix |
[683.30 --> 693.78] and a break-in change. That was perfect, I'm sure, for admins who wanted to deploy that security bug fix |
[693.78 --> 701.14] as soon as possible. I think that's probably the worst case scenario. |
[701.14 --> 714.22] In FreeBSD, I remember the FreeBSD 5.0 release cycle because between FreeBSD 4 and 5, one of the big |
[714.22 --> 723.68] changes was to replace a global lock used all over the place in the kernel by fine-grade lockings. |
[723.68 --> 730.96] And this went pretty bad because it took years to stabilize that work. |
[732.04 --> 738.60] In parallel to that, new version of FreeBSD 4 were cut and published, |
[738.98 --> 744.54] but it was really difficult for the project to ship something at that time because |
[744.54 --> 752.10] the code base was very unstable and nobody knew when we could cut even beta, |
[752.10 --> 754.38] let alone the final version. |
[755.26 --> 758.28] Yeah, it was a big problem because of that. |
[758.54 --> 762.70] It put pressure on people working on that code. |
[763.68 --> 766.72] Other people were tired because we didn't ship anything. |
[767.56 --> 772.96] And I'm sure end users were sad by that situation as well because some of them were |
[772.96 --> 775.60] looking forward to use the new version. |
[775.60 --> 780.02] Other users would see that disaster coming. |
[780.64 --> 788.10] And in the end, nobody wanted to use FreeBSD 5.0 because it was too uncertain what you could |
[788.10 --> 788.88] do with that. |
[789.24 --> 792.06] So I think that's a good example of a bad release engineering. |
[792.06 --> 798.60] I think you touched upon something really interesting, which is the longer you wait to ship something, |
[799.20 --> 804.24] the worse the release gets or the more problematic the release can become. |
[804.42 --> 804.48] Yeah. |
[804.62 --> 808.20] I don't know whether it becomes, it's not like a definite, but the longer you wait, |
[808.30 --> 810.66] the higher the chances the release will not be as good. |
[810.66 --> 810.98] Yeah. |
[811.46 --> 818.68] And I think that the most important part is that people are losing confidence, both developers |
[818.68 --> 823.06] working on that and users expecting the release. |
[823.42 --> 823.72] Yeah. |
[823.76 --> 829.50] I think we keep forgetting at the end of the day, it is people like you and me that are |
[829.50 --> 836.08] responsible for some pretty important systems that they have to, first of all, consume these |
[836.08 --> 840.90] updates somehow, understand what changes they're rolling out. |
[841.52 --> 844.06] And when something goes wrong, well, guess what? |
[844.16 --> 847.20] They're the ones responsible to fixing those problems. |
[848.00 --> 855.22] And I mean, they can blame the developers developing or like releasing their software, but ultimately |
[855.22 --> 860.12] they need to take certain precautions that, you know, things are rolled out in a good way. |
[860.12 --> 867.18] So the harder it is for these developers to roll out these changes or to start using like |
[867.18 --> 873.62] maybe new features, whatever it may be, the less likely they are to consume future changes. |
[873.92 --> 879.54] So it's almost like they enter a vicious cycle, but it's a negative one in that if it doesn't |
[879.54 --> 886.42] work as smooth and as consistent and as pain-free as user would like, like for example, your phone. |
[886.42 --> 892.32] If every time you upgraded your phone, your operating system on your phone, things would |
[892.32 --> 894.40] break, like, would you do it? |
[894.98 --> 895.10] No. |
[895.38 --> 895.66] No. |
[895.74 --> 898.10] If things would change in unexpected ways, would you do it? |
[898.20 --> 898.52] No. |
[898.86 --> 903.06] If you had to wait a really long time for an update, like let's say two years and then |
[903.06 --> 906.20] you applied it and then everything broke, would you do it again? |
[906.46 --> 906.84] No. |
[907.72 --> 915.48] So there is a very strong relationship between the happiness of end users and the release |
[915.48 --> 915.92] engineering. |
[916.42 --> 916.62] Yeah. |
[916.62 --> 919.00] Of the products and the systems that they use. |
[919.10 --> 919.42] Yeah, I agree. |
[919.52 --> 919.66] Okay. |
[921.52 --> 928.18] So if you had to say, if you had to pick one, I know it's an unfair comparison, but let's |
[928.18 --> 929.22] just go with it for the fun of it. |
[929.50 --> 933.32] What would you say is more core infrastructure, RabbitMQ or FreeBSD? |
[934.32 --> 936.84] It's a tough one. |
[937.44 --> 939.10] You can answer it any way you want, by the way. |
[939.34 --> 940.22] It's meant to be fun. |
[940.32 --> 941.36] It's not meant to be tough. |
[941.36 --> 951.28] I think it depends on if we stay in the company world, not end users and not people at home. |
[951.42 --> 956.36] I mean, it depends on what kind of service you provide on top of that. |
[956.36 --> 965.28] For instance, if we are taking a company using RabbitMQ for cars, like you mentioned earlier, |
[965.82 --> 974.06] in that case, RabbitMQ would be the most important one because you want all those devices and cars |
[974.06 --> 978.26] and computers to communicate properly. |
[978.26 --> 980.78] So I think that's the most important component. |
[981.32 --> 995.50] For a company like Sony, for instance, who is using FreeBSD in their PlayStation products, if the devices they ship to gamers crash all the time because the operating system is unstable, |
[995.50 --> 999.66] so it will be a very sad story for everyone. |
[1000.18 --> 1004.70] So in that kind of context, I think the operating system is important. |
[1005.90 --> 1009.66] I know that Netflix are other big users of FreeBSD. |
[1010.32 --> 1018.04] So imagine if you couldn't stream your Netflix because there was a bug in FreeBSD introduced, shipped worldwide across all their ports. |
[1018.74 --> 1023.74] WhatsApp is also using FreeBSD, but they are also exchanging messages. |
[1023.74 --> 1033.84] So in that company, if they were to use RabbitMQ, yeah, it would be more difficult to define which component is the most important. |
[1034.10 --> 1034.94] I would say RabbitMQ. |
[1035.66 --> 1039.26] I think they would get the best and worst of both components. |
[1039.68 --> 1043.10] So it depends on the combination of that, how well that would work out. |
[1043.40 --> 1044.24] But I see what you mean. |
[1044.30 --> 1044.92] I see what you mean. |
[1045.02 --> 1047.76] And for the listeners, this actually happened. |
[1048.02 --> 1050.22] Both myself and JSB, we were in Paris. |
[1050.46 --> 1051.86] JSB is from Paris, from France. |
[1051.86 --> 1056.34] And, sorry, JSB, that's how I refer to Jean-Sébastien. |
[1056.70 --> 1058.34] Do you know what JSB comes from? |
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