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[1599.72 --> 1603.00] Do we want to introduce GitLab, for instance, or some other tools? |
[1603.00 --> 1614.58] The idea is that because that's a private, not a private, but internal Git repository, currently we don't have all the nice tools provided by GitHub, for instance. |
[1615.64 --> 1624.74] Yeah, it's still a barrier to entry for country readers who are used to use GitHub for any kind of open source project. |
[1624.74 --> 1630.82] And yeah, that's still a discussion because you have to balance the fact that you want to dock food FreeBSD. |
[1631.10 --> 1637.62] You don't want to depend on the company's service, which is perhaps free for now, but we cannot tell what the future will be. |
[1638.10 --> 1639.34] So that's on one side. |
[1639.46 --> 1650.24] And on the other side, the fact that GitHub is so popular, it's a great source for new contributors and contributions in general. |
[1650.24 --> 1657.02] Okay. So I know that you can obviously communicate everything via the website. |
[1657.24 --> 1659.50] I don't really have any commenting enabled. |
[1659.84 --> 1660.92] Most websites don't. |
[1661.06 --> 1662.50] It tends to be a one-way channel. |
[1662.82 --> 1666.56] But how do users, how does the community talk to the developers? |
[1666.92 --> 1667.96] Is there a mailing list? |
[1668.80 --> 1669.72] How does that work? |
[1670.18 --> 1674.06] There are many mailing lists, in fact, either by topic. |
[1674.06 --> 1686.58] For instance, there are mailing lists around the graphic stack, around the Wi-Fi drivers, around network storage, a particular CPU architecture, and so on. |
[1686.84 --> 1694.94] And there are some mailing lists about topics such as the current development branch or the stable release branches. |
[1696.12 --> 1701.36] And yeah, that's the primary communication channel in FreeBSD. |
[1701.36 --> 1707.20] Let me guess, these mailing lists are software that runs on the same FreeBSD servers as the Kit Repo? |
[1707.42 --> 1708.24] Yeah, they are hosted. |
[1708.58 --> 1711.46] Okay, those must be some beefy machines to run everything. |
[1712.26 --> 1713.90] Yeah, the infrastructure. |
[1714.34 --> 1723.54] So initially, it was hosted in the Yahoo infrastructure because some FreeBSD developers were employed by Yahoo. |
[1723.78 --> 1725.48] They offered that service. |
[1725.48 --> 1736.18] But now that Yahoo doesn't use FreeBSD anymore, and that the company is splitting the various services, the infrastructure moved to some other companies. |
[1736.40 --> 1739.54] And I don't remember which one, but they are offering the hosting. |
[1739.78 --> 1746.42] And there are some servers around New York, still around San Francisco. |
[1746.76 --> 1750.10] And some of them are also in Europe and Asia. |
[1750.10 --> 1755.06] So I understand how the community can talk to the FreeBSD developers. |
[1755.70 --> 1758.90] How can they participate in FreeBSD development? |
[1759.58 --> 1763.92] One way to find tasks is to look at the Bugzilla bug tracker. |
[1763.92 --> 1773.28] And that's also one tool which is discussed because, I mean, people of my age are very happy with Bugzilla. |
[1773.48 --> 1780.04] But I'm sure people with 20 years younger might found it quite archaic. |
[1781.32 --> 1786.04] So, yeah, that part is still being discussed and will evolve. |
[1786.98 --> 1791.68] But, yeah, Bugzilla is one place to find bug reports and there's things to work on. |
[1791.68 --> 1798.68] And mailing list is another one where you can see what people are talking about or complaining about in particular. |
[1799.22 --> 1803.72] So if you don't know what to do, that's one way to find work to do. |
[1804.24 --> 1813.34] Another one is just solve the problem that you hit every day if you are using FreeBSD for work or at home. |
[1813.58 --> 1814.80] That's how I started, in fact. |
[1815.12 --> 1816.32] And how do you submit the patches? |
[1816.72 --> 1819.24] You can send pull requests on GitHub. |
[1819.24 --> 1822.60] They should be taken care of by someone at some point. |
[1823.24 --> 1826.10] You can submit patches on mailing lists. |
[1826.40 --> 1831.10] You can submit patches on Bugzilla after opening an issue. |
[1831.52 --> 1835.58] There is no one specific channel to submit your work. |
[1836.12 --> 1836.72] Okay. |
[1837.36 --> 1842.98] So this is a little bit of a tangent that we had for the last few minutes because the question was, |
[1843.12 --> 1846.00] how does the FreeBSD release engineering look like? |
[1846.26 --> 1847.00] So we covered that. |
[1847.00 --> 1852.58] So coming back to that topic, you had a very good description of how things work. |
[1852.92 --> 1858.40] I don't think you mentioned any timelines in the sense that when a new release starts, |
[1858.40 --> 1860.60] how long before that release gets shipped? |
[1860.92 --> 1862.54] How long before the GA? |
[1862.96 --> 1865.00] What does it look like to go to a beta? |
[1865.32 --> 1867.98] Is there a time period when betas start shipping? |
[1868.36 --> 1873.58] How long does it take typically before an RC or the first RC ships? |
[1873.58 --> 1875.42] And eventually the GA? |
[1875.92 --> 1876.08] Yeah. |
[1876.28 --> 1880.02] It depends if it's a minor release or a major one. |
[1880.54 --> 1883.48] So FreeBSD does not follow semantic versioning. |
[1883.72 --> 1887.68] That's interesting because the version would make you think that it does, right? |
[1887.72 --> 1889.84] Like it's currently version 13 or 12? |
[1889.94 --> 1891.14] 12 or 13, I can't remember. |
[1891.56 --> 1892.88] Yeah, both exist currently. |
[1893.04 --> 1893.26] Right. |
[1893.36 --> 1894.70] So both version 12 and 13. |
[1894.70 --> 1895.14] Right. |
[1895.50 --> 1899.98] And you also have like 12.1, 12.2, but those are not semantic versions. |
[1900.56 --> 1901.26] No, not really. |
[1901.48 --> 1904.76] It's close, but how can I say? |
[1905.14 --> 1909.90] Yeah, this is close to semantic versioning, but this is not documented as that. |
[1910.54 --> 1916.06] I mean that in FreeBSD, we pay a lot of attention to breaking changes. |
[1916.06 --> 1919.60] We have what we call POLA. |
[1919.98 --> 1922.26] So it's a principle of list astonishment. |
[1922.84 --> 1932.04] So it means that all changes which go into FreeBSD should be the less disruptive, in fact. |
[1932.32 --> 1937.06] And we should not surprise users, even between major releases. |
[1937.06 --> 1947.78] So when you want to deprecate something or remove something, you have to announce that a long time before you want to do that. |
[1948.20 --> 1955.24] If possible, it's good if you can mitigate what you're about to change in a breaking way. |
[1955.24 --> 1963.60] So that the transition from one version to another major version, it must be as smooth as possible. |
[1963.98 --> 1969.22] And we pay a lot of attention to compatibility between the major releases. |
[1970.28 --> 1974.12] So, of course, you cannot guarantee that all of the time. |
[1975.26 --> 1978.52] But yeah, that's an important part of the FreeBSD release engineering. |
[1978.52 --> 1991.18] So back to the timeline, I would say that a major release between the beginning of the release cycle and the end, we are talking months, like two, three months. |
[1992.04 --> 1999.96] Perhaps more if there are bugs that crept in and are difficult to track down. |
[1999.96 --> 2010.78] And for minor releases, they are shorter, but we are still in the range of weeks and perhaps months sometimes. |
[2011.62 --> 2011.76] Okay. |
[2012.08 --> 2022.44] So now that we think about the FreeBSD release engineering as a whole, what can RabbitMQ learn from the FreeBSD release engineering? |
[2022.44 --> 2030.00] So I like the fact that it's based on fixed interval between major and minor releases. |
[2030.52 --> 2039.00] And the fact that the release cycle follows a calendar which is announced in advance and to everyone involved, contributors and users. |
[2039.82 --> 2047.16] I think this is a great tool to improve the communication and the organization of the work, in fact. |
[2048.16 --> 2051.46] Yeah, I would love to introduce that into RabbitMQ. |
[2051.46 --> 2054.52] Having that calendar, in fact. |
[2054.86 --> 2056.44] Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. |
[2056.68 --> 2062.68] I mean, we have been thinking about this for a while and we have been looking at, well, FreeBSD is one example, but also other projects. |
[2063.32 --> 2065.20] And it does sound like a good idea. |
[2065.58 --> 2070.08] Obviously, between the idea and the implementation, there's a whole ocean of things to go through. |
[2070.36 --> 2072.84] But the direction sounds reasonable to me. |
[2073.28 --> 2078.44] I'm wondering if there are any other open source projects that you like how they do release engineering. |
[2078.44 --> 2081.94] So which one do I know about? |
[2081.94 --> 2087.56] So for instance, there is the Darktable open source photo editing project. |
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