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[2744.50 --> 2750.10] but first of all, I didn't know about those tools. Second of all, I'm not aware of any article, |
[2750.74 --> 2755.62] any video, anything like this that runs you through how to do this. |
[2755.62 --> 2760.90] Yeah. So what I would want to do is to go through that and capture it. |
[2760.90 --> 2767.70] I think the reason we don't promote it too widely is because the 80% use case for Grafana is editing |
[2767.70 --> 2773.14] dashboards in Grafana, right? And that's the easy to access, easy to use. It's very visual. It's very |
[2773.14 --> 2780.10] kind of rewarding to do that, right? The 20% use case that I've just described is the serious SRE |
[2780.10 --> 2786.34] DevOps approach. And I think we've tried a bunch of different ways of doing it. We've settled on this |
[2786.34 --> 2791.94] way, but I don't think anyone is satisfied. I don't think we think this is as easy as it can be. |
[2791.94 --> 2798.34] I don't think anyone thinks that this is the final form. And so I'm not sure that anyone's kind of too |
[2798.34 --> 2803.54] eager to promote this as the advanced way of doing it. I referenced the hackathon earlier that we were |
[2803.54 --> 2808.26] doing internally. And I know that we've got some cool stuff coming out that maybe will be the final |
[2808.26 --> 2813.78] form of this. I know that I'm very excited about trying it out. This is a dream and you can say, |
[2813.78 --> 2819.62] no, right? Or like not a dream, but like a crazy plan. What would it look like if we paired for an |
[2819.62 --> 2825.94] hour? I've been doing it for close to a decade. So I think I'm pretty good or so others say to have |
[2825.94 --> 2830.42] a go at this. Maybe half an hour will be enough just like to get a hang of things. So, okay. |
[2830.42 --> 2832.66] I'm thinking YouTube stream. I'm thinking... |
[2832.66 --> 2833.22] Yeah, let's do it. |
[2833.22 --> 2834.18] Wow. Okay. |
[2834.18 --> 2837.54] Can we use VS Code Sharing? Because I've always wanted to use that and |
[2837.54 --> 2839.06] and I haven't had an opportunity to. |
[2839.06 --> 2843.14] Anything you want. You're the driver. You're just showing me how it's done. And then maybe |
[2843.14 --> 2848.10] we can switch over and I can have a go to see if I understood it correctly in the context of |
[2848.10 --> 2852.90] changelog.com because we are already using Rufana Cloud. The integration is there. We're already using |
[2852.90 --> 2858.42] Rufana Agent. And who knows? Maybe there will be some interesting things to share, but the focus is on |
[2858.42 --> 2864.90] getting this nailed down because it sounds amazing. Why aren't more people doing this? And I don't think |
[2864.90 --> 2870.18] many know about it. Whatever comes after it, I think it's an important step to capture and to |
[2870.18 --> 2875.86] share widely because I don't think people know. I've never heard this before. Jason it, JB, |
[2875.86 --> 2879.54] but I was doing it wrong and I didn't even know until today. So thank you, Tom. |
[2879.54 --> 2883.62] Oh yeah. I wouldn't say you're doing it wrong, but it was, yeah, you didn't see the full, |
[2883.62 --> 2886.34] didn't get an opportunity to use the full process. |
[2886.34 --> 2889.30] To do it right. I didn't have the opportunity to do it right. Okay. |
[2889.30 --> 2893.46] I mean, and that's one of the big challenges of this approach, right? Is it's, there's a lot to |
[2893.46 --> 2897.46] learn. There's a lot to consume and you don't really see the benefits until you do it all, |
[2897.46 --> 2902.42] which is like from a, from a developer experience perspective is awful, right? Like there's no kind |
[2902.42 --> 2905.06] of incremental reward that goes with it, which is what we're missing. |
[2905.06 --> 2910.34] We talked about metrics quite a bit, which talked about logs, but we haven't talked about traces. |
[2910.34 --> 2910.90] Yeah. |
[2910.90 --> 2914.26] I think it's a very important element. We ourselves are not using traces. |
[2914.26 --> 2921.62] And I can see the traces being instrumental, critical, essential to understanding why our |
[2921.62 --> 2926.82] requests are slow. If you have a trace, you can understand where the time is being spent |
[2927.62 --> 2931.22] and the slow requests, you can see, well, actually, you know what? It was Qproxy. |
[2931.22 --> 2935.94] Because I suspect based on the metrics that we have, which by the way, we have quite a few and |
[2935.94 --> 2941.14] everything's going to Grafana Cloud, all the logs, everything. Based on what I see, like what we have, |
[2941.14 --> 2950.90] it's all things point to Qproxy. So how would we use traces to understand that? First of all, |
[2950.90 --> 2955.30] how does it work? This is tempo. I know that's the component. That's the, would you call it a |
[2955.30 --> 2959.86] component? What, what would you call it? I tend to call it either a project or a service, |
[2959.86 --> 2964.66] like depending on the context. Okay. So like the, the tempo service, how would we use it |
[2964.66 --> 2969.54] for traces and how would it integrate in the problem or how it solved the problem that I just described? |
[2969.54 --> 2973.30] So this is a really interesting one, right? Because in the metrics world, |
[2973.30 --> 2978.18] we develop exporters, right? Which gather numeric data from other systems and expose them as metrics. |
[2978.18 --> 2982.66] The barrier to entry for metrics is kind of medium, you know, maybe it's kind of three feet tall. |
[2982.66 --> 2987.14] You know, for logs, everything has logs, right? It's so easy to get logs from everything. |
[2987.14 --> 2991.86] So the barrier to entry for logs is kind of nowhere, like it's on the floor. The barrier to entry for |
[2991.86 --> 2996.34] traces is super high. You need to have systems that are instrumented. You need to correctly |
[2996.34 --> 3002.74] propagate the context, the trace ID, and you need to have a way of kind of distributing this |
[3002.74 --> 3007.86] telemetry data, right? So this is the challenge in the tracing space right now. And this is why I |
[3007.86 --> 3011.62] think it's always the, you know, to your point, right, you haven't adopted tracing yet. It's always |
[3011.62 --> 3016.90] the third thing people adopt. The investment is high. The good news is there's a huge reward for that |
[3016.90 --> 3021.70] investment. And particularly whenever you're looking at any kind of performance challenges, |
[3021.70 --> 3025.62] tracing is invaluable. We've been doing a lot of distributed tracing for a long time in Grafine |
[3025.62 --> 3029.86] Labs. We started with Jaeger and eventually did our own thing with Tempo. And it's been |
[3029.86 --> 3035.38] instrumental in kind of accelerating the query performance of every component. So that's the |
[3035.38 --> 3041.46] TLDR. How do you do it? So there's some good news here. One of them is open telemetry, very kind of |
[3041.46 --> 3048.10] cross-functional project from many different contributors and vendors that is designed really to make the whole |
[3048.10 --> 3054.26] telemetry journey better and easier and simpler. And the most well-developed bit of open telemetry |
[3054.26 --> 3059.78] and bit that is most widely adopted is their tracing stack, right? So we've put the open telemetry |
[3059.78 --> 3064.58] collector into the Grafana agent. So you can deploy that and then you've got something you can just fire |
[3064.58 --> 3070.74] traces at in your local environment. You'll set up the Grafana Cloud agent, the Grafana agent to forward |
[3070.74 --> 3075.46] those traces up to Grafana Cloud to Tempo and then Tempo deals with the storage of them, right? And that's |
[3075.46 --> 3080.02] really the component of this. All that leaves is for you to deal with the instrumentation. |
[3080.02 --> 3085.46] Now, the good news is with a lot of high-level languages, a lot of dynamic languages, you can |
[3085.46 --> 3090.90] use auto-instrumentation. So this is part of open telemetry's client libraries that come along. And |
[3090.90 --> 3096.66] for instance, with most Java web frameworks, with most Python frameworks, it's like one line of code, |
[3096.66 --> 3102.34] or maybe it's even no code changes and you can get reasonable traces out of the system. I don't |
[3102.34 --> 3106.58] think a system like that exists for Go. So it's a bit more work with Go, but it's still not that |
[3106.58 --> 3110.10] challenging. I unfortunately don't know enough about the Erlang VM, but I'm going to expect there's |
[3110.10 --> 3115.78] probably a pretty easy way of getting traces. It exists. So like the open telemetry integration |
[3115.78 --> 3121.62] exists in Erlang. It's not that mature, but it's improving. Like every month is getting better. |
[3122.18 --> 3128.66] And I think it's more around the queries that go all the way to PostgreSQL. So how does the request |
[3128.66 --> 3134.02] map to that? I mean, I know that the database has some impact on that, but right now, the most |
[3134.02 --> 3142.02] important one is between the app pod, the app instance, and the PostgreSQL pod, which they all |
[3142.66 --> 3147.62] exist in the same place. Now, maybe if PostgreSQL is like a managed service, we wouldn't have this |
[3147.62 --> 3153.14] problem. Maybe. But regardless of what the case would be, you'd want to know what is the problem. |
[3153.14 --> 3158.18] And if I change this, does it actually improve it? And by how much? If you have the trace, |
[3158.18 --> 3163.94] it's really easy to understand, well, I should, you know what, not Qproxy, I should focus maybe |
[3163.94 --> 3168.98] on the load balancer. But I don't know where that request is stuck or like, you know, in that request, |
[3168.98 --> 3172.74] which is the longest portion. So where should I invest my time first? |
[3173.38 --> 3176.82] You've hit on the problem or one of the many problems with distributed tracing. Like |
[3177.86 --> 3182.58] you have to have the entire stack instrumented to really get a lot of value, right? And if you have |
[3182.58 --> 3187.78] holes in the middle or black blind spots from a kind of tracing perspective, the values greatly |
[3187.78 --> 3188.34] diminish. Yeah. |
[3188.34 --> 3188.50] Yeah. |
[3188.50 --> 3194.42] You can get tracing information out of load balancers, right? And I've never actually done |
[3194.42 --> 3198.58] it myself though, right? I've always kind of stopped there. I'm hoping that things like open |
[3198.58 --> 3203.62] telemetry, and I know Amazon are heavily investing in open telemetry. So I'm hoping that it will be |
[3203.62 --> 3209.46] possible if it isn't already to get open telemetry spans out of my ELBs, right? I think, you know, |
[3209.46 --> 3214.42] my ALBs and so on. I think that's going to be really important. I'm hoping that things like the W3C |
[3214.42 --> 3221.54] trace context makes this easier. And maybe this even allows things like the CDN Fastly to also |
[3221.54 --> 3227.30] emit a span. That would be kind of cool being able to see a CDN and an ALB and your application. |
[3227.30 --> 3232.90] When it comes to Postgres and MySQL, I don't know. I'd love to see spans coming out of those systems, |
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