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[3232.90 --> 3237.54] but I don't really know the status. I'm not really an expert on this side of things. A common |
[3237.54 --> 3242.58] misconception is that kind of every service emits one and only one span, right? It doesn't have to. |
[3242.58 --> 3246.42] You can emit as many spans as you like. You probably shouldn't emit too many, but you can |
[3246.42 --> 3250.90] do whatever you like. So one of the things where we do a lot of is kind of client-side spans. |
[3250.90 --> 3256.18] You know, whenever we do a request to a database in Cortex, in pretty much any of the systems I've |
[3256.18 --> 3262.42] worked on, they'll emit a client-side span. And this effectively gives you some insight into the |
[3262.42 --> 3267.54] latency that external systems are contributing. But it doesn't have to even just be two spans, |
[3267.54 --> 3271.54] right? A server span and a client span. You know, you can put spans in between. You know, |
[3271.54 --> 3276.98] so we will have spans around cache lookups. We will have spans around various kind of |
[3277.54 --> 3282.74] areas inside a single service that parallelize, right? And we'll emit multiple spans. And it |
[3282.74 --> 3286.82] really helps you understand the flow of the request. Don't go crazy with it, but in general, |
[3286.82 --> 3292.34] it's possible. In your situation, because it's a monolith, I would instrument the Elixir server and |
[3292.34 --> 3298.66] client going out to Postgres. And that would probably give you enough information to know if it's Postgres, |
[3298.66 --> 3305.38] to know if it's the Qproxy or the ELB. You want to get a span from something further up the chain, |
[3305.38 --> 3306.74] and then start to look at the differences. |
[3306.74 --> 3311.30] Chris Ingress Nginx. Does Ingress Nginx and Nginx support spans? Do you know? |
[3311.30 --> 3315.86] I don't know off the top of my head. Like, one of the things I've definitely seen engineers go down |
[3315.86 --> 3321.30] this rat hole of trying to get complete traces and spans from everywhere. And there's just a kind of, |
[3321.30 --> 3326.58] there's a, you know, effort reward trade-off to be made. Like, it might take a lot of effort to get |
[3326.58 --> 3331.30] a complete span from every single service. You know, if you're on a mobile app, like doing a |
[3331.30 --> 3335.06] client-side span might tell you everything you need to know, just, you know, emitting it from your |
[3335.06 --> 3336.02] mobile app. |
[3336.02 --> 3340.74] Chris I understand what you're saying. I think on the client side, that is less of an issue because |
[3340.74 --> 3346.18] the span, which is the longest one, happens server-side, where it's like waiting or processing, |
[3346.18 --> 3352.10] whatever the name may be. And that tends to sometimes be really long. So what happens inside |
[3352.10 --> 3359.22] of that span? So we know that it goes to, let's say, fastly. Great. We can remove that. We can go |
[3359.22 --> 3364.82] directly to the load balancer. Okay. I don't think there's much we can do about the load balancer. So |
[3364.82 --> 3372.18] let's say we ignore that. So our span really starts at possibly the Ingress Nginx. So that's the first |
[3372.18 --> 3377.30] starting point. Excellent. What happens inside Ingress Nginx maybe would be interesting. I mean, |
[3377.30 --> 3382.98] this is Nginx specifically, maybe it would be interesting. But the next hop will be into, |
[3382.98 --> 3389.62] as far as I know, this will be the entry points into Kubernetes. So that will be the service that's |
[3389.62 --> 3394.98] responsible for routing the traffic. I mean, that's actually even before the Ingress Nginx, right? |
[3394.98 --> 3400.98] It's a service. It hits the Nginx pod. And from the Nginx pod, it will need to talk to the other |
[3400.98 --> 3409.94] service, which is the application service. So having these first two, three steps in the span |
[3409.94 --> 3414.66] would be already helpful. But realistically, I think we can only start from the Kubernetes side. |
[3415.14 --> 3423.86] And that's okay. So from Nginx, the next hop would be really the application. So how does that span vary? |
[3423.86 --> 3427.54] And regardless of what happens inside, it doesn't matter. How does that duration change? |
[3427.54 --> 3434.50] From the application, again, it has to hit the database. And if we know the timings that it takes, |
[3434.50 --> 3439.46] that would be enough. So we have literally the three, four hops that we're really interested in. |
[3439.46 --> 3445.54] And then there's the cube proxy. So where does that happen? And how long does that span take? |
[3446.18 --> 3451.78] So it's just like, okay, together, maybe seven steps. And which is the step which is more variable? |
[3451.78 --> 3455.62] That's the way I think about it. Is that right? Does this sound right to you? With distributed tracing, |
[3455.62 --> 3459.94] you've always got to kind of see. The great thing about it is like being able to visualize the actual |
[3459.94 --> 3464.82] flow of the request. So yes, like, I'm agreeing with you. One of the things I will say is, |
[3465.78 --> 3470.74] it's probably not cube proxy. My understanding in most deployments is that is not a layer seven thing, |
[3470.74 --> 3475.70] right? It's done at the TCP level, where it doesn't intercept any traffic, right? So it's not worth putting |
[3475.70 --> 3480.58] a, well, it's not even technically possible, I guess, to do a request level span there because |
[3480.58 --> 3482.34] it's very connection oriented. Right. |
[3482.34 --> 3486.10] You know, one of the promises of OpenTelemetry, right, because it's so vendor neutral and because |
[3486.10 --> 3492.82] it's so open as a standard is that we might even be able to get spans into more established open |
[3492.82 --> 3498.10] source projects who don't want to pick favorites. So maybe one day we will be able to get spans into |
[3498.10 --> 3502.82] Postgres and into MySQL. Maybe it really exists. I'll admit to not knowing off the top of my head. |
[3502.82 --> 3508.50] Neither do I, but that's really fascinating. So this is what I'm thinking. First step is, |
[3509.22 --> 3516.02] let's pair up on what it looks like to do Grafana dashboards, Tom style. I'll call it Tom style. I |
[3516.02 --> 3522.02] know it isn't, but Grizzly style or whatever. The point being is the way you developed them. Big fan |
[3522.02 --> 3527.62] of GitHub, big fan of version controlling it. We're not using Argo CD yet, but I would love to put that |
[3527.62 --> 3532.58] in the mix. How does that play with the tools that you use? How does it integrate with Grafana Cloud? |
[3532.58 --> 3537.30] How can we control those dashboards in a way that is nicer than what we have today? |
[3538.02 --> 3543.94] And then this specific problem, once we have that iteration set up really nicely and those feedback |
[3543.94 --> 3548.02] loops set up really nicely so we can experiment, which goes back to what you were saying, being |
[3548.02 --> 3553.30] able to ask interesting questions, being able to figure things out, right? Like explore, which |
[3553.94 --> 3558.58] I'm a big fan of, right? Like figure out, like we don't know what the problem is, so let's figure out. |
[3558.58 --> 3563.70] So how can we very quickly iterate on solving that specific or like finding that answer? |
[3564.34 --> 3571.38] And then I think those spans, tempo and integrating with that, super valuable, long, long term. |
[3571.38 --> 3576.34] I'm expecting things to change along the way as the ecosystem matures, more libraries are getting |
[3576.34 --> 3582.58] instrumented, open telemetry becomes more mature. I think that's a great vision and a great |
[3582.58 --> 3586.66] direction towards where the industry is going. I'm very excited about that. |
[3587.54 --> 3593.70] As a listener, if I had to remember one thing from this conversation, what should that be, do you think? |
[3593.70 --> 3599.70] I go all the way back to the early comments about observability and about the big tent philosophy |
[3599.70 --> 3605.62] and about them not being one size fits all tooling. I know as a vendor here, like, you know, I have a |
[3605.62 --> 3610.34] preference for Prometheus and Loki and tempo, but honestly, like that's just a preference. That's just an |
[3610.34 --> 3617.54] opinion. Like an equally valid opinion is to use graphite and Jaeger and elastic, right? And they're very |
[3617.54 --> 3623.14] powerful systems. And it's our kind of mission at Grafana Labs to allow you to have the same |
[3623.14 --> 3629.22] experience, the same level of integration and ease of use, no matter what your choice of tooling is. |
[3629.22 --> 3635.54] I love that. So if we were to pick one title for this discussion, what do you think that should be? |
[3635.54 --> 3638.50] Observability and big tent, yeah. Big tent philosophy. |
[3638.50 --> 3643.06] Big tent philosophy. I like that. I like that big tent philosophy. |
[3643.06 --> 3646.50] I'm not sure where the term comes from, to be brutally honest. I should probably Google it. |
[3646.50 --> 3650.82] It's like, you know, I know how a lot of companies have internal mantras, right? You know, |
[3650.82 --> 3656.26] Google's mission was to organize the world's information, right? We are, you know, the internal |
[3656.26 --> 3659.94] mantra in Grafana Labs is this big tent philosophy. We apply it everywhere to everything we do. |
[3659.94 --> 3663.14] Who came with the idea of the big tent? Do you know? |
[3663.14 --> 3669.70] I think, I don't know where the term came from, but the idea was very early on in Grafana when |
[3669.70 --> 3675.30] Torquil added support for multiple data sources, right? And very early on, Grafana started life |
[3675.30 --> 3680.66] visualizing graphite data. But very early on, support for other systems was added, right? |
[3680.66 --> 3686.98] And it's really that vision early on to bring together data for multiple systems in Grafana |
[3686.98 --> 3692.82] that seeded this idea. So the big tent, the way I understand it, is bringing all these, |
[3693.62 --> 3697.46] I want to say vendors, data sources. It's more than just data sources, right? |
[3697.46 --> 3701.14] More than just data sources, because it's data from anywhere and combining it in a single place, |
[3701.14 --> 3706.42] but building experiences that span multiple systems, integrating them in ways that didn't |
[3706.42 --> 3711.86] exist before. But it is not just a concept that applies to Grafana and the visualization, right? |
[3711.86 --> 3716.02] We apply it on the backend with supporting different query languages within the same |
[3717.86 --> 3724.82] time series database. You know, we support it in Tempo, being able to send traces formatted for |
[3724.82 --> 3729.38] Jaeger or formatted for Zipkin. You know, and it's kind of intrinsic in a lot of open telemetry as well, |
[3729.38 --> 3734.98] being very vendor neutral to a fault. Tom, I didn't think this was possible, |
[3734.98 --> 3738.02] but it happened. I have more questions at the end than at the beginning. |
[3738.02 --> 3743.46] I'm sorry about that. And I'm more excited to continue talking with you at the end than I was |
[3743.46 --> 3748.90] at the beginning. Again, that's not possible. I'm really looking forward to trying things which |
[3748.90 --> 3752.98] I've just said, and I'm really looking forward to next time. So thank you for today. |
[3752.98 --> 3754.26] Thank you very much, Gerhard. |
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