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So yeah, I think that's the future of biotech, maybe... There's a lot more to it. But you'll see like a lot more -- oh, specialized cancer therapy. Specialized gene therapy is another thing that is probably going to be in the near future. We're already starting to have it... There's a lot of immuno -- essentially, what... |
Actually, that's one of the big things about being a biologist, is you find yourself in this position where you're explaining biology and they're like "Hey, should I do that, like health-wise?" Like, "No, no, no. Go talk to a doctor. They have liability insurance, they've been trained in patient-related matters, they k... |
I've gone to the doctor, I'm like, "My stomach hurts. Is there something wrong with my microbiome?" and they're like "No, goofy, you have acid reflux disease. Take this \[unintelligible 00:45:14.01\] and stop eating spicy food after eight." I was like "Okay, cool." And they were right. And that's the thing - again, whe... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Will I be one of those experts? |
**Tim Stiles:** You can absolutely be one of those experts. Actually, that's been a joke that I've had for -- |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Can AI - like, can artificial intelligence...? |
**Tim Stiles:** Oh, AI. I thought you said "I, personally." I said YOU can be -- |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** But I didn't even dream of going that direction... \[laughs\] |
**Tim Stiles:** No, you can do it. I'm not kidding. I had one coworker that's like "How long would it take me to be a master in alignment software?" I was like "Master? A long time. Second-best, maybe third-best? It depends on how fast you read, but it could be this year." It really depends on what your focus is and wh... |
\[46:01\] But AI is this weird thing where - you know, machine learning is so obvious; everyone in tech knows it's obviously overhyped, right? It's like this thing where now we're having all these general models, which are awesome... I was writing basic genetic programming with generative models for a weird little Poké... |
I had a similar problem when I was first learning it like five years ago. I think it was "What's a linear filter?" Isn't this just a kernel? And then the PhD \[unintelligible 00:46:53.03\] "Yeah, we just do that... I'm sorry." And that's a similar thing. Now there's all these different terms, I'm like, "Oh, is this bas... |
So with machine learning and AI I think there's a lot of opportunity to get around what have been these traditional problems in modeling, where we don't have the math for it; we don't have -- like I said with the three-body problem, we don't have the math. No one's \[unintelligible 00:47:16.13\] model three bodies orbi... |
So in this case, there's some real roadblocks, where machine learning is absolutely vital, and you do need machine learning for it. But there's also a lot of people that do machine learning models, and then you're like "Yeah, you didn't need machine learning for that." It really depends. |
But the folding stuff and the molecular dynamics stuff, stuff that is molecular interactions - I see a lot of potential there. There's a lot of work that can be done there, especially with -- so there's something called ligand binding, which is like a fancy term for "We take a small molecule, we'll make it attach to so... |
But that sort of space, of figuring out what molecules interact with each other and how they fit, and how they puzzle-piece together - that's some really good use cases for machine learning, where you're just \[unintelligible 00:49:06.15\] structures against each other, you're doing - I call it sub sampling; or people ... |
There are things with -- people have figured out how to do DNA synthesis fixing, like I do, but like with machine learning, and it's like... I don't know, mine works like 99% of the time, or something, and there's no machine learning involved... And I haven't really looked at the other people's models, mostly because I... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** We'll add them in the show notes, for sure. |
**Tim Stiles:** \[50:09\] Oh, yeah. And so - yeah, machine learning has a place, but I feel like you still need the software engineers and biologists to understand each other's fields; you can't just kind of play it off on the hopes that this mushing of matrices will get the product you want, because you still have to ... |
**Break:** \[50:55\] |
**Ian Lopshire:** From what I understand, a lot of the innovation in machine learning in the last five years has been around that piece you were talking about; like, we're making sure the data is usable. |
**Tim Stiles:** So this is a really interesting thing about biotech that's held true, is that biotech is ten years behind on any trend when it comes to software. So in five years I'll believe it, but right now we're still in the weeds, my man. We're still there; we're still trying our best. I mean, I'm working on a pro... |
One of the things that I would say for a lot of people that are listening is I have a -- egotistically, I call this Tim's Inverse Law of Software Quality. The more important the thing, the worse the code. And there's some organizational psychology theory around this, but essentially, the code behind Instagram is infini... |
And so there's a lot to be done in writing sort of these niche libraries that are open source, where people can see it... Because the thing for me is that if I didn't make Poly open source, I wouldn't have nearly as much business. People wouldn't be able to believe in me. I don't have a PhD. The proof in this field is ... |
\[54:04\] And so I guess what I'd like to see in the future for Go developers is writing scientific-esque or heavy industry software that's critical, in Go, or any other language that's appropriate, and it's well-documented in open source. And maybe with the nuclear reactor stuff - you probably couldn't make that total... |
Some clients, they're like "Hey, I just need this, and I need to query for it." I'm like, "Cool. I'll write this pipeline, and I'll keep most of it for myself, and make it open source, and you get this one query that I promise never to tell anyone what this query was, and it's your data forever, or as long as you're st... |
**Ian Lopshire:** No, that makes sense. So we'll do one last quick question before we do the unpopular opinion... But this is all open source, and you said that we need more software engineers in biotech. How can the community get involved? |
**Tim Stiles:** That's an amazing question. So there's a bunch of issues on Poly right now, but what I truly need from engineers or software engineers right now is like - I don't know how to deploy large, scalable things. I write really efficient DNA manipulation algorithms. That's my jam. That's what I'm really good a... |
I'm using SurrealDB right now; I contributed to their Go client... Like a minor one, but still one. And it's been so far a great experience with them, and I think they have like a real product going on there, that's really nice, and a proper graph database... So if there's someone out there that knows how to deploy thi... |
The other thing is, I'm actually writing tutorials for Poly using Gitpod and an awesome plugin that has like 10 stars on GitHub, where essentially it lets you just put in the configs, like breakpoints for code, for the debugger... So the whole tutorial idea is that you open up this Gitpod instance and it brings you to ... |
So if you wanna learn biology, like I did with this wet lab, where I was like "Hey, I want to learn biology", and they're like "We'll teach you, but you've got to make the class..." Like, if you want to do a similar thing, but on the internet, that would be super-helpful. |
\[58:02\] And if anyone's listening and you're into like learning how to do the wet lab biology yourself, there are plenty of garage labs all over the world, except for Germany. I'm so sorry, Natalie; Germany has a law against this. I wish I was kidding... But the rest of the world has these. I know, it's super-weird, ... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Never tried... |
**Tim Stiles:** You can try... Just don't tell anyone, apparently. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** \[laughs\] |
**Tim Stiles:** But there's plenty of these garages; they're called community labs, or biohacker spaces. They're all over the world, and they're used to software engineers just showing up and being like "Hey, what's all this biology stuff about?" And they'll take you in. They'll be nice. They'll show you the ropes. But... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** And it's a good time to remind that at least today, when we're recording the episode, it's still October, so it's still time for Hacktoberfest. |
**Tim Stiles:** It's Hacktoberfest...! |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** You also get something for that contribution. |
**Tim Stiles:** I added a tag in there, you're right. Did you get T-shirt? What do you get for that? I've never gotten the swag. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** I don't know what's this year's swag. |
**Tim Stiles:** I have a disappointingly small amount of tech swag... Like, I'm gonna be honest, I don't have enough. And every time I get like a Google hoodie or something, I just give it to my dad. He thinks it's hilarious. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** So... Time for Unpopular Opinions! |
**Jingle:** \[59:13\] |
**Tim Stiles:** I like the harmony there... Okay, unpopular opinion. This is probably not unpopular to people listening, but maybe it is... But open source has always been sustainable, and I see no business difference between that and closed source software, personally. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Now's the time to drop that mic. \[laughs\] |
**Tim Stiles:** Really? Okay... Yeah, so that's like my hot take, is I don't see a difference between them business-wise. And I know a lot of people do, and this is weird... I don't know what -- there's something weird about open source in people's heads. When they hear I'm an open source developer, they're "Oh, you're... |
So for me, looking at like a -- like, if you look at MongoDB, obviously, GitLab, and... What's the other one that I've already forgotten? Red Hat, obviously - they sell services; they're the experts in these things. They help people deploy it in a way that's scalable, that probably saves them money compared to them doi... |
I think that's something that a lot of people don't recognize with open source stuff, is that it's a very viable -- it has almost no effect on their actual business model. That's what's always been surprising to me. Unless your business model is to not develop something novel... Like a lot of SaaS'es, obviously, differ... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yeah. |
**Tim Stiles:** But if you're writing something truly novel, that no one else has done before, and you're the expert, you really have no fear of anyone copying you, because... You have to market yourself, that's the big thing. You can't be the quiet guy in the corner. You can't be like "Oh, I wrote this thing", and the... |
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