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**Jerod Santo:** That was kind of the purpose of the practice, to see if we were -- |
**Ian Lopshire:** I think there is something in the Go community that does dislike the idea of these big frameworks, these big things... And I'm not sure if it's reasonable. |
**Jerod Santo:** Like a full-service framework. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. I'm not sure it's reasonable, but it does exist. I don't think we can deny, like, the skepticism if that exists. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Kris Brandow:** I feel like we're comparing apples to oranges a little bit, because it's like - you know, Ruby, Django... These are not languages. The language there is Ruby, Python, whatever. I think Go is a good language for building these things if you actually have the time and patience to actually ramp up and ac... |
But if you're actually trying to either build something so you can either understand how these things get put together, or if you're like a bigger organization that has the engineering capacity to own something like this, then I think it can actually be very good. Because I think you have the knowledge of how the thing... |
So I think the main argument against using Go for these types of things is like "Well, the getting started period is much longer", because you have to build more of the stuff yourself. And I think that's kind of where I get a little annoyed with that argument, because I personally do not think that that's how we should... |
**Jerod Santo:** I agree with you most of the time. Sometimes you do want to just build fast and to test your business idea, and not your software system. So to test an idea quickly. That's why I think Rails was so popular in startup land, was because it was like "We don't even know if this business is gonna be here in... |
Now, the idea there, I think, is like once you get your product-market fit, or whatever the startup guys say, then it's like "Okay, let's re-architect this sucker now in like the ways that Kris would build it. Let's build it to last." And I think a lot of times that never happens, because the business is taking off and... |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** So I definitely understand that. What I'm trying to get at - I have never quite understood, is the lack of a Rails or a Django coming out of the Go community because Gophers don't like that? Just speaking very broadly. Or is it because Go as a language isn't well-suited for that? And I don't know the a... |
**Kris Brandow:** I think it's because there's not a need. Rails exists, Django exists, PHP, Drupal, and Symfony... All of these things already exist, and have large communities, and large support around them... So in order for something like that to exist inside of Go, we have to invest a lot of community energy and t... |
I think Go as a language really does attract people that want to do this kind of lower-level, or different type of work, at the end of the day. I think people that want to go and explore Go - they're already onto the world of single-page web applications and APIs, and they don't want these big monolithic stacks as much... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[40:19\] Well said. Ian, anything to add? |
**Ian Lopshire:** No. |
**Jerod Santo:** You're nodding along in agreement. |
**Ian Lopshire:** I think that covers it. The idea that those already exist... Like, yeah, why would we build another one for a 1% market share? |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Maybe because you want a web app, and you love Go. But I guess in that case then you're gonna handroll a bunch of stuff, like Kris talked about, and you're gonna pick each library out, and you're gonna build up a thing... Which you can do in these other systems. I mean, Sinatra is a thing inside... |
**Kris Brandow:** I think that's one of the things that actually makes Go quite good... I mean, given I did just say all of that, I think that if there was a reason for us to build something like a Rails in Go, I think it could be incredibly interesting, because we do have a lot of stuff built into the standard library... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, totally. |
**Kris Brandow:** We have a database library that's built into the language, we have a good templating system that actually properly escapes HTML and JavaScript and those sorts of things, built right into the language itself. So I think the pieces are all there for it, but I just think-- |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. The appetite. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah, there hasn't been someone that wants to go put the effort into building that sort of thing. |
**Jerod Santo:** So Mike Dodson in the chat is expanding on what Kris said. He says "You end up using one of the frameworks and quickly run into issues, and find it's actually as easy to write your own, versus learning a third-party framework." I think we've all been there; especially the more magic that pours on, the ... |
**Kris Brandow:** I think this is why a lot of the early API frameworks that existed in Go -- because that was something that was big for a while, with Martini and a bunch of these other ones; they've died out for a large part, and I think it's exactly because of that... Because you realize pretty quickly it's just lik... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, having a batteries-included standard library is a huge asset to any language and ecosystem, so... Well put. Alright, getting close on time; let's ask -- I've got a couple other questions here. So look on the other side of the fence; you know, wanderlust. Do you guys ever have any wanderlust in Go... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Through the years I've run into some things that don't have great support in Go... I don't know if you've ever worked with SOAP; like XML... |
**Jerod Santo:** I try not to. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. If you try to do that in Go, you're just gonna have a bad time. And I would like to be able to stay in the language I like, and build services that interact with this, but I won't. I've tried it, and I refuse... We'll use something else for SOAP communication. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. What do you usually switch to? |
**Ian Lopshire:** C\#. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. So I guess the XML support in general is not the best. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. Kris? |
**Kris Brandow:** You know what - I think a lot of things that I want in Go are things that also don't exist in other languages... |
**Jerod Santo:** Hah! You're a dreamer... |
**Kris Brandow:** Like, I want better APIs, like API-building tools. I wanna be able to build HyperMedia APIs much more easily, but I don't think there are any languages that have particularly good tooling for that right now. Same thing with database access; I want better ways of interacting and manipulating data, but ... |
**Jerod Santo:** You want the ability to build your own DSLs, or what do you mean by better -- let's take the HyperMedia one; or let's take the database one, because more people are probably familiar with databases. Like, when you say "Access to database better" - I don't know what better looks like unless you tell me.... |
**Kris Brandow:** \[44:06\] There was this talk that one of the previous - I think he was one of the previous - Go team members gave on how great SQLite is, and how that's kind of the only database you need... That's the direction that I would like things to do. I like want my data to just be there, but also be distrib... |
I think part of my gripe here with SQL as a whole - I don't like the model of that for interacting with data; and everything is built on top of it, which is why I don't think any languages have good solutions to this. So I'd like to see something like that get better. And I think the way Go is structured, that's just s... |
So I think there's interesting things around all of that, but once again, it's just like the paradigm, how the industry works is we all want our applications to be stateless, so we're all shipping data out, we're communicating with something else that holds all the data, at the end of the day. |
So it's stuff like that I'd like to see more of, and see more interesting ways of doing it, but I don't know of any mainstream languages that have those features. And of course, I think package management is something that I would like to see be good, and I don't think any language has done it well as of yet. I think p... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I've heard people speak highly of Rust's crates system, but I don't know what sets it apart from others, or anything about it. So I don't know if that's just people speaking highly because that's what they do, or if they've actually cracked some sort of nut over there, in the Rust ecosystem, that... |
Okay, so some of the things that I've seen in other languages, where I'm like "If I was to use Go, I might miss this" - I like the idea that for is the only way to loop, but I also love all of the FP functions, for like iteration, and map, and reduce, and select, and filter... For me, those are very productive ways of ... |
**Ian Lopshire:** I miss iterators all the time. I find myself building them a lot. With generics, I'm hoping we do kind of settle on a reasonable iteration - maybe not interface, but way of doing it. But I do miss that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Kris Brandow:** I think I miss that too, but I think I've also just handrolled it enough times that I'm just like "Nah, I can just write it myself, so whatever." |
**Jerod Santo:** You have your own little utilities package that you carry around, or do you just code if up each time? |
**Kris Brandow:** Nah, I just code it up each time for what I need. |
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