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**Mat Ryer:** It could. Or it might surprise us and maybe everyone's like "Yeah, we loved that." Honestly, I think that point of like, we're now so familiar with Go, we have to be careful we don't just become curmudgeons about it and resist any change... Because it should change, it should evolve, it should get better,... |
**Daniel Martí:** I think Michael also needs to think that if this opinion is gonna be really unpopular, then try is not gonna come back... So you want it to be very popular. |
**Michael Matloob:** I mean, I would like for it to be popular... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. That's not really in the spirit of the segment, but... It's fine. |
**Michael Matloob:** I think it is unpopular, but... |
**Mat Ryer:** Well, we'll find out. |
**Michael Matloob:** ...if it's an opinion that I hold, I would like it to be less unpopular, even though it is unpopular. |
**Mat Ryer:** \[55:07\] Sometimes, when the case is made, in fact it's hard to get unpopular opinions. This is what we've found. Because people make the case so eloquently, like you did. And then people on Twitter... You know, they're easily swayed. They'll believe that now. |
**Michael Matloob:** I mean, if I'm gonna make reference to the g-word again, there was a time in the community where you brought up the g-word, and people are like "No! Not in my Go!" And people were right to be worried about those things. But I think the case was made, people worked really hard to present the case wh... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. That is definitely true. And then the counter is we don't want it to be too easy to change things because of the backwards-compatibility promise. I do quite like the fact that it's quite a rigorous process before we really get any big changes like this. I think there's value in that, too. So that re... |
**Michael Matloob:** Every new thing we add is something we have to maintain forever. We do have to be careful about adding new things, for sure. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah, because forever is ages, ain't it? |
**Michael Matloob:** It's a pretty long time. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. |
**Daniel Martí:** I also remember somebody recently criticizing Go - I think it was on Hacker News - saying something along the lines of "Go is a popular language that has ignored all the programming language development in the past 15 years." But that's kind of why it works, right? Because it only builds on top of wha... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah, that's quite interesting. It is a very stable thing. And yeah, that other thing of having lots of different ways to do the same thing... In JavaScript, you almost have to learn a particular flavor of JavaScript now in order to contribute to a project. Someone using all the latest language features, ... |
**Michael Matloob:** Yeah... I mean, I find that sad from the other side. JavaScript and all the other parts of the web ecosystem have become so big that it is impossible for anyone to make a new JavaScript interpreter engine without the resources of a huge multi-national corporation. That sucks. |
**Mat Ryer:** Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we have, on that somber note... You can forget about your dreams of writing your own JavaScript engine. It's not gonna happen... \[laughter\] So just wake up. |
**Michael Matloob:** Sorry... |
**Mat Ryer:** No, it's a harsh wake-up call, Michael, but we needed it. Thank you very much. \[laughter\] Thank you so much to our guests today... Michael Matloob joined us, as did Daniel Martí. It was a pleasure, as always. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us on Go Time. |
**Daniel Martí:** Thanks! |
**Mat Ryer:** We'll see you next time. |
• Discussion about hosting GopherCon EU |
• Introduction of Baruch Sadogursky and his role as a developer advocate with JFrog |
• Overview of Baruch's experience with dependency managers, specifically his dislike for them |
• Explanation by Baruch that the biggest problem with dependency management is a "people problem", not just a technical one |
• Discussion about how humans' expectations and behaviors can lead to issues with backwards compatibility and binary compatibility |
• Human errors in versioning and patch management |
• Difficulty in ensuring binary compatibility and preventing unintended behavior changes |
• External dependencies and trust issues with package repositories |
• Challenges in establishing a trusted and decentralized network for module authentication and distribution |
• Proposal of a system called Pyrsia, using blockchain-backed ledger to ensure authenticity and immutability of modules |
• Decentralized P2P network for distributing authentic modules |
• Authenticity of software packages through decentralized verification |
• Use of "golden registries" or CI/CD pipelines to guarantee package authenticity |
• Limitations of PGP keys in verifying package authenticity |
• Importance of trust in the source of the package, rather than just its name or identity |
• Difficulty in solving people-related problems with computer science, such as hijacking and malicious code |
• Need for standards and guidelines (like RFCs) to ensure binary compatibility decisions |
• Semantic versioning as a system for guaranteeing backwards compatibility |
• The limitations of semantic versioning when dealing with human error and malicious changes to code |
• Vendoring as a potential solution, but also its drawbacks and potential for more problems than benefits |
• Alternative solutions using modern package management systems that provide reproducible builds without the need for vendoring |
• A discussion on the "unpopular opinion" that dependency management is intentionally designed to make life difficult |
• Interest in fresh thinking on software dependency problems |
• Discussion of the limitations of solely relying on computer science to solve these issues |
• New approaches mentioned, such as leveraging a P2P network for authenticity and verification |
• Importance of considering human aspects in solving software dependency problems |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** "Good time of the day" is my new favorite greeting, to anybody who is listening any time of the day. Today we are here to talk about dependency managers, and I am here with my co-host, Johnny. Hi, Johnny. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Hello. How are you? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Good. How are you? |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I am good, but I am sure I am not as tired as you must be... You just got done finishing hosting GopherCon EU. How did it go this year? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Wonderful. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Nice. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** But I am tired, you're right. \[laughter\] And we are here joined today by Baruch Sadogursky. Hi, Baruch. How are you doing? |
**Baruch Sadogursky:** Hello! I am very excited to be on this podcast, because -- well, because it's an awesome podcast, with awesome hosts... And I'm a little bit bummed I missed GopherCon EU this year, but we already set up a date to be there next year, I hope. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Absolutely. |
**Baruch Sadogursky:** So yeah, thank you for having me. That's exciting. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** For anybody who's listening later, or just not watching the recording, Baruch wears a really cool T-shirt that says Yalla. |
**Baruch Sadogursky:** Yalla. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** What does that mean? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** For those who don't know, for this probably small part of the population, but - for those who don't know, what is Yalla? |
**Baruch Sadogursky:** So the meaning of the word is "Let's go", because Go Time, Go Podcast, and everything... \[laughter\] |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Nice. |
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