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**Daniel Thompson:** Well, I mean, right now Tauri itself is close to entering the beta phase. The beta phase means we've reached a compliance internally with our expectations of what it should do. Basically, as soon as we mark Tauri as 2.0 beta, we're sending it off to audit. It's going to be audited by two companies.... |
And once the audit is completed, and we've fixed the findings, we will then mark Tauri as RC0, give the community a good time to feedback, reply, make last-minute changes, and then we will release Tauri 2.0. I hesitate to give timelines, because audits can find lots of things that you weren't expecting... But we do exp... |
We have a blog post about it on the Tauri website, where we go into detail about it... But the challenges of an open source community is that it's really hard. I mean, even with the venture-backed group like we are being involved, it's really hard to give the community timelines. I'd like to say a certain date, but obv... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, all exciting things, Daniel. We of course hope the best for you. Always appreciate you coming on the show and discussing these things. Big picture, little picture... I love how you can go from the stars, down into the nitty-gritty of web views just like that. So we definitely appreciate -- you're... |
**Daniel Thompson:** I promise to do so. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Thanks, Daniel. |
• Data-oriented programming as a concept and its lack of understanding and recognition |
• Yehonathan's experience with writing a book on Clojure and his failure to interest readers |
• Data-oriented programming as a set of principles that make it easy to manipulate data in programs |
• Comparison of data-oriented programming to object-oriented and functional programming paradigms |
• Key principles of data-oriented programming: treating data as a first-class citizen, separating data and code, using generic data structures, and using immutable data structures |
• Differences between data-oriented programming and functional programming, particularly in the use of strongly-typed data structures versus generic data structures |
• Separating code from data |
• Representing data with generic data structures (maps and lists) |
• Treating data as immutable |
• Separating the schema from the data representation |
• Benefits of separating code from data (preventing complexity, enabling code reuse) |
• Problem with object-oriented programming (data and code are wrapped together, making it hard to reuse code) |
• Benefits of using generic data structures (dynamic access, ease of renaming fields) |
• Drawbacks of static typing (limiting dynamic access, requiring multiple structs for different representations) |
• Discussing the trade-offs between static and dynamic typing |
• Concerns about losing tooling, inference, and refactoring abilities with dynamic typing |
• Flexibility and simplicity of data structures in dynamic typing |
• Importance of runtime validation in dynamically-typed systems |
• Using JSON schema for data validation and error handling in APIs |
• Comparison of static and dynamic typing for data validation and error handling |
• Declarative data validation using JSON schema is more flexible and expressive than static typing |
• JSON schema can be used to generate Swagger JSON and is a perfect match for Swagger |
• The main challenge is to get developers to adopt the discipline of writing schemas for their endpoints |
• JSON schema can be used to generate test data and perform generative testing |
• Using database schema as the schema is not typical, but there are tools that can translate SQL schema to JSON schema |
• GraphQL is too rigid and adds too much complexity to business problems, making JSON schema a more appealing alternative. |
• Union types for input data are not currently supported, but may be added in the future |
• Data immutability is a paradigm shift that can be challenging for developers to adopt |
• Structural sharing is a technique used by Git to achieve immutability without performance hits |
• Data-oriented programming separates code from data and uses generic data structures, leading to benefits such as reduced bugs and easier data manipulation |
• Adopting data-oriented programming can lead to a more enjoyable development experience and increased productivity |
• A common schema language for expressing data schemas is still an unsolved problem. |
• Ballerina language, designed for APIs and cloud, has a flexible type system that combines static and dynamic typing |
• The language allows for optional type declarations and dynamic typing for certain data structures |
• The flexible type system enables developers to switch between static and dynamic typing as needed |
• Dynamic typing has its benefits, but also has tooling limitations |
• Tooling is improving, but still has a long way to go |
• Data-oriented programming is a style that combines the benefits of static and dynamic typing |
• Yehonathan's book "Data-oriented programming" explores this style and its applications |
• JavaScript and TypeScript are also suitable for data-oriented programming due to their flexible typing systems |
• Introduction of Yehonathan Sharvit |
**Jerod Santo:** Alright, I'm here with Yehonathan Sharvit, author of Data-oriented programming, published by our friends at Manning in July of 2022. Welcome to the show. |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Well, I'm very happy to be here with you. |
**Jerod Santo:** Happy to have you. So data-oriented programming, or data-oriented programming, depending on your affectation - a concept that I hadn't really heard about, and I feel like I've heard about lots of different things... And so maybe like a niche area that you're trying to expose. Tell us about why you deci... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Alright... But before that, let me ask you a question back... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** If you don't know what is data-oriented programming, do you agree that it sounds sexy, or cool? |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] I do. I think it does sound intriguing. That's why I was like, "Yeah, we'll have you on the show. It sounds cool." |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Yeah. So that was my feeling when I started to write a book, that nobody really knows what it is, but everybody thinks they know what it is. And if you would ask a developer in the street, "What do you think about data-oriented programming? Is it a good paradigm or a bad paradigm?" They'd say "F... |
**Jerod Santo:** You can be the one. Yeah, exactly. |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** And then I looked on Wikipedia; of course, there were no articles about data-oriented programming, so I wrote an article on Wikipedia about data-oriented programming, and I say "Wow! I'm gonna be famous." But... Can you guess what happened? |
**Jerod Santo:** No... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Wikipedia refused my article... |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, they took it down. They said it wasn't good enough. |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Yeah. They said -- not that it wasn't good enough. They said, "In order for a topic to be worth having a page on Wikipedia, you need to prove secondary sources." Meaning you need to find books or articles that are not about data-oriented programming, that mention data-oriented programming. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** And it was obviously not the case. And I cannot use my book as a reference for my topic... So right now, my article on Wikipedia is not there. Now, seriously, I am a member of the Clojure community. I've joined the Clojure community 11 years ago, in 2011... No, 2012. And Clojure is a data-orient... |
My first attempt with Manning was to write a book about Clojure, and it was a total failure. Nobody purchased the book. I mean, maybe we sold 200 copies. But the folks at Manning were intrigued by this, the Clojure paradigm, and they say, "You know what - we liked working with you. The book didn't go well..." So you kn... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[06:04\] I see. So you've also tricked me. We're doing a Clojure episode -- I didn't realize it, but here we are; we're doing Clojure. |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Too late. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Yeah, we're here now... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Yeah. And it seems that people are interested and intrigued by this topic. I got a lot of responses and questions from readers all around the world... And you know, it's not really new. I didn't invent anything. And Clojure also didn't invent anything. It just pulled some best practices from man... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. So if we take something we don't understand, data-oriented programming, and compare it to some things that we may already understand, many of us understand object-oriented programming. Others of us also understand functional programming, and we try to fit this in somewhere amongst things that we... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Okay, great question. It's both. Both against, both fit with... And you know, in 2022 it's very hard to put a clear distinction between paradigms and languages. For example Java, which is THE object-oriented programming language, supports functional programming. And even Clojure, which is totall... |
So it's not about languages. I think nowadays, most modern languages support many, many paradigms. But some languages guide you into -- in some languages, it's more natural to use this paradigm. So what is data-oriented programming? Data-oriented programming is a set of principles that makes it pleasant and effective f... |
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