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\[22:04\] And I understand you're thinking, "Daniel, this is niche. Not many people are using Tauri." But the great news is that we're working together with other partners in the Rust ecosystem to define and use emerging standards, so that the work that we're doing for Tauri people can be used by, at first, others in t... |
I think the final thing that I'd like to point out is that - you asked "How is this possible? How can you keep the energy going, the momentum going?" And in open source projects you generally have like three or four models. One, a company sits on top, puts its thumb down... It's not even a benevolent dictator; it's lik... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's a lot to unpack there. At the end of the last show I asked you about venture capital, and the organization, and things that would come from the 1.0 release, and that was about a year ago. And you kind of teased us a little bit with a topic we like to talk about with Cory Doctorow, chokepoint... |
Then you mentioned the core team and the model of open source, which I think is interesting... I'd love to touch all those, obviously, but maybe focus in on the organization itself. Remind us what it's licensed as, remind us of the organization... What has happened since 1.0 to sort of formalize it? I know you mentione... |
**Daniel Thompson:** Yeah, absolutely. So nothing has changed in the organizational structure of Tauri itself. There is still a board of directors, there is still an entity held within a Dutch foundation. The proper name is the Tauri Program within the Commons Conservancy. All of the code is open source, Apache 2/MIT, ... |
\[25:56\] So to summarize, the license is MIT/Apache 2; it is still morally stewarded by the commons Conservancy. And internally, there is a working group composed of people who elect themselves to join the working group. Currently, there are about 45 members of the working group, and I would say about 20 are active. A... |
So from the organizational side of the open source project, nothing has changed. From the perspective of the company, we are donating/allocating - I don't know how you wanna say it - full-time employees to spend all of their working time on research, development and maintenance of Tauri itself, of the core pieces of th... |
**Break**: \[27:31\] |
**Jerod Santo:** So CrabNebula is the entity which has all these amazing angels. Correct? |
**Daniel Thompson:** Correct. |
**Jerod Santo:** And it's starting off as consulting and auditing. But that's not the big picture that you drew for these angels that got them excited. I would imagine it'd be okay to back something like that, but your bigger picture is products, services... It seems like some sort of distribution network of maybe app ... |
**Daniel Thompson:** Right. We see consulting itself as a way to offset the cost of R&D. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Daniel Thompson:** With the addition of grants coming in, that covers our R&D costs, because we align those tasks with R&D. And auditing is important, because it keeps our security team fresh, and we're helping the ecosystem, arguably, with important projects that people are using, by auditing them. |
Of course, neither of those is that exponential curve that everybody is dreaming about, and I think that the long play for CrabNebula is in the services of distributing, solving this signing problem one way or the other, and providing tools that bring joy to the act of development of software again. And I think that wh... |
So that move there allows us to also become more than just the Tauri company. I think that that's a risk that we identified really early. And as a matter of fact, it would technically be prevented by the statutes of the open source community. No one entity can profit exclusively from Tauri itself. We cannot be the Taur... |
**Jerod Santo:** So if you created a platform for Tauri, you would desire other platforms for Tauri. Is that what you're saying? Like, if you were the app store for Tauri apps, that did all the bundling and signing and whatever else is involved, and allowed you to distribute your software to users. CrabNebula - you're ... |
**Daniel Thompson:** Okay, maybe the ambition is a little bigger. Maybe the ambition is more to say that the Tauri framework itself would be more aligned with something like JavaScript. It's not a product. Tauri is not a product in and of itself. It's a way to get stuff done. Like JavaScript, like PHP, like Ruby. And w... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[34:02\] Go ahead. Go off. Go ahead. \[laughter\] |
**Daniel Thompson:** It's one of the scary parts about this. I have a lot of friends in the industry, and I don't want to piss anybody off, but I really hate it when licenses get changed, or when communities break down, or when corporate interest and greed suddenly redefines community... And then you find out what it i... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Kind of... |
**Daniel Thompson:** And I think that that's this kind of -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, I mean, if you're funding some of the core team members, and you're a major financier behind the scenes of making things happen, then obviously the economics of supporting it change... You're right in the fact that it can continue, but it's financially stabilized to some degree by the success ... |
**Daniel Thompson:** I want to agree with you in principle... |
**Jerod Santo:** "...but I'm not going to." \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You should. You should. Because I'm right. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Daniel Thompson:** I mean, I know you're right for you. And from where you're sitting. No, from where you're sitting I think it makes a lot of sense. But the point I was trying to make was - and this is something I'm working with the whole working group on... And it's not something that's done in software very often.... |
The point is, I think at some point we can actually declare Tauri is done. I'm not saying Kubernetes-done, but done enough so that all you have to do is add little things, and there's little bits of maintenance... But done-done to the point where the features have been completed. And maybe that's the point in time wher... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We have opinions. We just shared our opinions on this. Do you listen to our show often, Daniel, by any chance? |
**Daniel Thompson:** I do. I do. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We just went off on this. We just went on like what we want in browsers; me, Jerod and Nick, on our talk show, Changelog & Friends. So we were just like knee-deep in this... |
**Jerod Santo:** We were just talking about an open source browser. That would be amazing. So you're teasing us here... But Tauri being done, when the underlying platforms, the deploy targets of Tauri are never finished... It seems like - okay, maintenance, but how much of a burden is that? I mean, iOS 17 just came out... |
**Daniel Thompson:** As a matter of fact, at CrabNebula this week we decided we're changing Research & Development, changing its name; Research, Development and Maintenance. RDM. Because maintenance is that -- it's like that part of R&D that I think people forget. Like, let's make a brand new framework, and call it new... |
\[37:56\] I do know that it's a massive undertaking; an open source browser is going to require a ton of stakeholders, a ton of specialists, for a very long time. And hey, we're not raising money right now, but I think that if you were to do something like that, you would definitely have to have the entire EU behind yo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Daniel Thompson:** And for me, one of the interesting side effects about working with Tauri is that -- Lucas and I started way back in the day, and we thought we were going to make a better Electron. We haven't gotten there yet. Electron is better in a number of ways, I'll say it here. Tauri is better in a number of ... |
The most exciting one is Slint, because we've found out meeting with Slint they have a different target audience, but they are building desktop apps, and they're using our low-level libraries, TAO and WRY. So all of a sudden -- the reason why Tauri became so popular in the first place, in my opinion, is because anybody... |
I haven't had the opportunity to speak to Cory Doctorow personally, but I think that this mode of deciding for cooperation instead of competition is really rare in -- I mean, in open source maybe, but in venture capital type companies, very likely. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's non-existent. |
**Daniel Thompson:** Yeah, "The competition helps you understand better who you are, but we're gonna crush them." I see the world differently. I see it as a way for us to build tools to support other people, and if they like our product, they're going to use it. If they like somebody else's product, they're going to us... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[42:15\] I like that sales pitch. I don't see how you get from there to a web browser, but I understand that if you get "bored", then maybe you're like "We need a big fish to fry", and I would love to have somebody fry that fish, Daniel, so I would also buy that, in terms of a massive effort to do tha... |
**Daniel Thompson:** You know, what does a web browser need? What's the one thing that it really needs, that we did really well at Tauri? It needs to be updated. Every freakin' day it needs to be updated, it needs to be distributed across the planet, to every kind of device, every version of device, every operating sys... |
**Jerod Santo:** And you've done that already. |
**Daniel Thompson:** It seems like the design for the platform that we are rolling out to beta later this fall, early winter, is capable of that. So we've just kind of accidentally built one of the things we kind of need to ship a browser. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Daniel Thompson:** A research goal is to find a way to make Servo window options for Tauri devs. It's a very interesting, almost legendary collaboration right there between Igalia and Servo. |
**Jerod Santo:** What's that mean, Servo window options? Tell us more about what that means exactly. |
**Daniel Thompson:** Well, if you remember Servo, Servo was a project from Mozilla that was designed to support the work on Firefox. Actually, a lot of the libraries and crates that are there are still in use. They never just got all deprecated, but the team was lost to the course of funding, or something; I don't know... |
**Jerod Santo:** No, I think that's clear. |
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