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**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Unfortunately, not yet. Not yet. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. Well as the author of Data-oriented programming, and the guy who the Ballerina folk come to for their punditry, maybe you could be the one to get something started around this group of people who, it seems like, at least Clojure land - Clojure seems to make this accessible, this style. What are o... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** I think JavaScript is really a good fit; data-oriented programming is natural. And in a sense, TypeScript is kind of data-oriented, because at runtime the types are not there. At runtime TypeScript is JavaScript. So TypeScript is like a linter. It's not really a statically-typed language. It's l... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** So in a sense, TypeScript is kind of -- and you know, in TypeScript you can say "Here, leave me alone. It's anything, or any", or whatever. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. That's kind of your eject button from TypeScript, is the any type, right? |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Yeah. But even without any type, what I wanted to say is that in TypeScript the types are not part of the data. You still have the freedom to create types decoupled from the data. The types are like glasses with which you want to look at the data. And you could have the same data and look at it ... |
So what I like in TypeScript is the decoupling between types and schema. So that's why I'm saying maybe it can be considered as a data-oriented programming language. |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. Well, there are more and more people writing TypeScript each and every day, so maybe we have more people with access to this style. If it is interesting to you, check out Yehonathan's blog. There's lots of extracts from the book and blog posts out there, covering the principles and some of the ... |
**Yehonathan Sharvit:** Yeah, my pleasure. |
• Andreas Kling's background in web browsers at Apple |
• How he started working on SerenityOS as a therapeutic project to fill his time after quitting drugs |
• The project's beginnings and how it gained a community, with over 900 contributors and 8,000+ users on Discord |
• How SerenityOS's web browser was developed, starting with a simple HTML display widget that evolved into a full-fledged web browser with advanced features like CSS and intersection observer |
• The project's focus on providing a playground for contributors to experiment with software and learn by implementing new features |
• The project started as a rich text widget, but evolved into a full-fledged browser |
• The addition of a JavaScript engine made it difficult for the developer to deny it was a browser |
• The project, called SerenityOS, was initially only runnable on SerenityOS, but was later ported to Linux |
• The Ladybird browser is a graphical shell for SerenityOS, which allows users to interact with the browser in a more traditional way |
• The project is still in development and requires users to build it themselves, as opposed to downloading a pre-made ISO |
• The developer implemented a barrier to entry to keep out people who are not interested in contributing to the project. |
• Discussion of the importance of a shared vision and goals in a community |
• The concept of SerenityOS as a therapeutic outlet and a platform for tinkering and exploration |
• Ongoing efforts to port SerenityOS to 64-bit ARM architecture |
• The need for a browser in a GUI OS and the importance of accessibility to client applications |
• The community-driven approach to development and the lack of pre-installed software |
• The charm of the system's imperfections and the benefits of community contributions |
• Building an operating system, SerenityOS, and its unique development approach |
• Development of a new language, Jakt, inspired by Apple's browser performance team and aimed at memory safety |
• Using GCC and Clang compilers |
• The potential of Jakt and its similarities with other efforts like Carbon and CPP2 |
• Reasons for not using Rust, including its stance against object-oriented programming |
• Work on Ladybird, a browser, and its progress and potential for being a useful tool for others |
• Concerns about browser engine monoculture and its implications on web diversity and user freedom |
• The need for alternative browser engines to promote competition and innovation |
• The development of Ladybird, a new open-source browser engine project |
• Sponsorship and support from companies like Shopify and Ohne Makler |
• The importance of having multiple browser engines to prevent a single company from controlling the web |
• The potential for Ladybird to become a widely used, user-friendly browser engine |
• Collaboration with web standards organizations to improve standards and facilitate development of new engines |
• Revival of the Servo browser engine project and its potential impact on the web landscape |
• Comparison of past and present browser engines and standardization |
• Impact of multiple browser engines on web development |
• Strengths of modern web standards and testing frameworks |
• Possibility of having multiple browser engines for innovation and education |
• Discussion of specific browsers and their engines (Chromium, WebKit, Quantum, Gecko) |
• The complexity of software increases with age due to change and accumulation of legacy code. |
• Ladybird and SerenityOS are simpler and more maintainable alternatives to complex browsers like Firefox. |
• The ability to learn from and contribute to these simpler systems makes them appealing to programmers. |
• The Gecko and Quantum projects in Firefox are complex and difficult to understand. |
• Writing code that closely follows specifications helps maintain simplicity and ease of use. |
• Continuous refactoring and updating of code to match changing specifications is necessary. |
• Diffing and tracking changes between implementation and specification can be tedious and prone to error. |
• Programmatic methods for reproducing adherence to specifications could simplify the process. |
• The benefits of having browser engine specs that are closer to programming language syntax, making it easier to implement and optimize |
• The trade-off between keeping specs language-agnostic to encourage multiple implementations and allowing for shortcuts and optimizations |
• SerenityOS's long-term goal of being a personal daily driver and its current progress at 20% |
• Success metrics for Ladybird, including having acceptable performance on typical web content and being useful to non-programmers |
• Challenges and details involved in browser development, including debugging and testing complex websites |
• The value of building a browser from scratch, rather than using third-party code, and the sense of accomplishment that comes with it |
• The importance of community involvement and the benefits of having a diverse group of contributors working on the project |
• Code sharing between operating systems and browsers |
• Ladybird project specifics, including contributor count and community involvement |
• Hiring and company structure, including funding from GitHub Sponsors and Patreon |
• Non-capitalistic product models, including open source and permissively licensed code |
• SerenityOS goals and aspirations, including potential for future development and use |
• Discussion of SerenityOS and Ladybird browser |
• Invitation for Andreas Kling to create a new version of the browser with a more appealing wrapper |
• Andreas Kling discussing his experience on the show and feeling comfortable with the conversation |
• Discussion of funding and support options, including GitHub Sponsors and Patreon |
• Information on how to engage with the SerenityOS community, including the Discord server and GitHub repository |
• Jerod Santo expressing interest in the project and joking about becoming a Serenity hacker |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, we're joined by Andreas Kling. Maybe you know of AwesomeKling on the internet, maybe you've heard of SerenityOS, maybe you've heard of Ladybird, maybe you haven't, but we're here to hear about all those things and more. Welcome to the show, Andreas. |
**Andreas Kling:** Well, thank you. |
**Jerod Santo:** This is a listener request, anonymous, they would like to remain anonymous, but I have to say probably not even the first time somebody said "Please talk to Andreas about SerenityOS on the podcast. So a couple of our listeners have been begging, dying for this particular episode, so your reputation pre... |
I'm just taken aback by what you've taken on. I think Adam and I both agree with this... We were talking about this conversation yesterday, and we were both kind of like "Wow, an operating system and a web browser that runs on said operating system, I'm assuming... That's a lot to take on. Why? I think, Adam, I'm steal... |
**Andreas Kling:** \[05:52\] Right. Well, it's a long and complicated story, but... I used to work on web browsers at Apple for many years, and at one point, I quit, and I didn't really know what I was going to do with my life, and I ended up doing drugs with my life. And that was not a very good life. It eventually le... |
I had a couple of things that I always wanted to do as a programmer, but never really engaged with properly... And one of them was building my own operating system. Because I think that's one of those things that everybody who programs, at some point at least, thinks "Well, what if I made all this stuff myself? How wou... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Lots of it, probably. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, so I just kind of started poking at it. And I didn't feel inhibited by the hugeness of the task in the way that you normally would. And it became kind of a therapeutic project to keep me busy, and keep my mind off of falling back into drug habits, and just do something wholesome with my time. A... |
Looking back on it now, it's like incredibly primitive... But of course, at the time it didn't feel that way. It felt like an amazing thing, because it had a GUI, and networking, and I could log on to IRC and chat with people, and stuff. |
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