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And that was interesting, because it kind of showed me that there are lots of people out there who think this is fun and interesting, and they might like to help out. And sure enough, people started making pull requests to my GitHub project. I think the very first pull request I got was somebody adding a script to buil... |
\[10:04\] Anyway, that's sort of where the whole thing began... And then slowly but surely a community formed around the project, and it's been growing ever since. We went from just by myself at first, and then like ten people or so over the next couple of weeks, and then more and more people kept joining... And today ... |
I always encourage people to implement something that they would like to know how it works, or just mess around with some kind of software that you don't know anything about. So we've had people implement TLS, and different compression algorithms, we have JPEG decoders and encoders, and stuff like that... And somebody ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yup. |
**Andreas Kling:** And I just started hacking together a very simple little HTML display widget. And then I got a little bit like bitten by a bug while doing that, and I just kept adding stuff to it... So I eventually had like a CSS engine, and then it gained like network loading capabilities, and... I don't know, it j... |
**Jerod Santo:** And now it supports intersection observer, which I just learned from your recent update. "Wow, intersection observer..." |
**Andreas Kling:** Right. \[laughs\] |
**Jerod Santo:** So you get into like the most minute web APIs at this point. Like, you're going for them all now. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. But really, for a long time, I genuinely believed I was not building a browser. I was just trying to make a rich text widget. And a very competent rich text widget, but still, it wasn't the browser. And I think the way that I convinced myself that it wasn't a browser for a long time was that we... |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, gosh... |
**Andreas Kling:** \[13:48\] I started building the thing in a YouTube video. So this whole time I was making random YouTube videos of just programming the system, and the one where I started just building a JavaScript engine from nothing ended up being like a crowd favorite, basically... Because people saw that and th... |
**Jerod Santo:** Once it has a JavaScript engine in there, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is-it-or-is-it-not-a-browser.com |
**Andreas Kling:** \[laughs\] Yeah... |
**Jerod Santo:** He's not building a browser... |
**Andreas Kling:** But even still, even still, it was only runnable on SerenityOS. And it stayed that way for a very long time. So in order to work on it, you had to work on the code on your host operating system, and then boot into SerenityOS in a virtual machine just to run the browser... Which was pretty cumbersome,... |
**Jerod Santo:** Full circle. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How do you install this? What do you install this on? Do you have to like build it on top of Linux, or do you have to build it on this virtual machine? Does it run on a Raspberry Pi? Help me understand like how you can get to an environment? |
**Andreas Kling:** Right. So it depends on what you want to run. Do you want to run SerenityOS, or the Ladybird browser? If you wanna run the whole operating system-- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The OS. I want the whole kitten caboodle. I want it all. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, the whole thing. That you can build on MacOS or Linux at the moment. And probably on Windows, if you have WsL. You check out the repository on GitHub, and then we have a build script that just takes care of everything for you. So you essentially run one command, and it takes a while, but once i... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Does it only run on the VM then? Or is it meant to be a host operating system? |
**Andreas Kling:** I mostly run it in a VM. Some people are really into running on hardware... So we have a sort of a sub-community that focuses on bare metal... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's me. That's why I'm asking you this, because I'm like -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...before I have more questions, I wanna know how I install it and play with it. So I don't see any ISOs to download, to... So I'm like "How do I get there? Do I have to build this? Why do I have to build it? Why can't you just give me ISOs?" kind of thing. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[18:10\] You've got to be hardcore. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. You have to build it because we can't boot from an ISO at the moment. It's not something that we've really focused on. And from early on, we've tried to kind of have a little bit of a barrier to entry to keep tire kickers and sort of people who are likely to make more noise than contribution - ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The freeloaders. I'm just kidding. \[laughter\] That was a tongue-in-cheek to some rel stuff. Anyways... |
**Jerod Santo:** I don't know, Adam, can you make more noise than contributions \[unintelligible 00:18:40.00\] \[laughter\] |
**Andreas Kling:** No, I just -- I've been in the open source world since... I don't know, however long; for the last 20 years. And I'm very familiar with the people that come and kick your tires... And when I set up this project, I was just a little bit tired of that, and I didn't want that type of energy, so I though... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay... |
**Andreas Kling:** My hypothesis was this would keep out 90% of annoying people. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Not me. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna build it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Like distro hoppers kind of people. They just try out a new -- they think of it like a new Linux distro, or something. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But it's always been a hard thing to convey that in a friendly way, because it's not meant to be like elitist, or anything like that, it's just to keep our environment where we communicate with each other, like keep that focused on development, instead of helping people who ar... |
I think, honestly, if somebody wanted to just add an ISO, and add a build procedure for producing these kinds of things, I wouldn't mind if somebody did that. It's just nobody has stepped up to do it. Because in our community, people just work on what they're interested in. We don't have any shared plans, or goals, or ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Those questions kind of come back to the why... Because your why of why it exists is different than the why that it exists. Like, what does SerenityOS accomplish is different than the why that you made it. So your why is this therapeutic outlet, the obvious trauma in your life that you had to recove... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. Sorry, I got lost in details. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's okay. That's okay. |
**Andreas Kling:** To your question, we have an ongoing port to 64-bit ARM architecture, but it's not super-stable yet. We can boot into the GUI desktop, and I think some people -- I've seen video of people booting it on Raspberry Pi, but not all the way to a usable GUI. I think one of the blockers is that we can't tak... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. So if somebody out there wants to learn how to support USB controllers on a Raspberry Pi, they can go to SerenityOS as an outlet to enable, to be the proving ground to hack on, right? |
**Andreas Kling:** \[22:05\] Absolutely. Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's kind of what this exists for, is just to tinker. It's not meant to be -- well, it can be a graphical user interface that pays homage to the old 90 days, that gives some of us that are in our 30s and 40s that nostalgic feel. The younger generation, 20s, is probably gonna get that nostalgically... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, I agree with that, for the most part. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It seems like it. I'm not saying that's what it is; it seems like it based on your description. |
**Andreas Kling:** No, I think that's basically how most people engage with it. And I'm really happy that it can be that for people. But for me personally, I do have a very long-term goal of using it as a daily driver. So I do tend to just focus on working on things that I want to use. So that's kind of how I ended up ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. |
**Andreas Kling:** Because daily driving happens in the browser, right? And this is a weird thing, but I get into a lot of arguments with people about this, because I keep insisting that an operating system today includes a browser. You can't have an operating system without a browser, because nobody would ever use tha... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, a GUI OS, I think, requires a browser. A headless OS, like Linux is used in most cases, does not necessarily require a browser. |
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