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**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** If you can have a voice there, that kind of makes up for the frustrations of the moving target, because it's actually a target that you can influence for the better for the implementers. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, for sure. For sure. And at least I believe that by sticking as close to spec as possible, and trying to track... Like, when specs change, we try to update our implementation, so it matches. Sometimes it takes a while to catch up, but by doing that, it just makes it easier to stay on top of the ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:00:29.28\] How do you diff that? How do you diff your implementation versus the ever-changing spec, rationally? Is it just like a literal diff, or do you have to like grok it as a human, and then determine and then implement? |
**Andreas Kling:** In practice, you have to grok it as a human. So that is probably the hardest part of continuous work on a browser engine, is that you have to read a lot of specs, and sort of internalize how they work, especially when it comes to -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Which is tedious, man... Right? |
**Andreas Kling:** It can be really tedious. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Fraught with error, or possible error, right? |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. But that's why we have tests. So... |
**Jerod Santo:** TDM is one of the things that programmers are most used to, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, what I'm getting at, I suppose the reason why I'm asking this question is not that I suggest you do it, but what if the path to multiple engines was the ease of that diff? If you didn't have to grok it as a human, and read it and discern... What if there was a way to say "Here's my implementat... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because if you could do that in a programmatic way, and you knew without having to waste your mental cycles, one, you'd probably like your life better, and two, you might encourage more folks to build more browser engines. Because it gets a little easier to diff the implementation to the spec. |
**Andreas Kling:** For sure. I don't know what the answer is to that, or why they don't work that way. One thing I have heard from somebody who worked on specs was that they prefer to keep the spec sort of language-agnostic, to encourage the widest range of implementations. Because the tighter you spec something, the h... |
And if you look at JavaScript, the JavaScript specifications are closer to what you describe. They have sort of a stricter syntax for their pseudocode. And in fact, we actually had somebody just this week who has been writing a JavaScript specification parser that reads the JavaScript spec in English, and then produces... |
**Jerod Santo:** Nice. |
**Andreas Kling:** Which would be super-cool, if that's possible. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Andreas Kling:** And I would love to see same capabilities with other specifications, but I don't know why it's not that way. I imagine that there's a reason that they don't want to work that way. |
**Jerod Santo:** So your long-term goal for SerenityOS is to be your own personal daily driver, right? Along the way tinkering, joy, education, hacker... Ladybird long-term goal - I mean, 10% global market share? What are you thinking? What would be success for Ladybird? |
**Andreas Kling:** \[01:04:02.07\] I think success would be if I can give it to my family members who are not programmers, and they can do all of their browsing with it, and it would be no real difference as compared to if they were to use Safari, or Firefox or Chrome. And I think it's obviously unrealistic to expect t... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, with the increased performance yields from ever better hardware, at a certain point slow software is less slow than it used to be; maybe just fast enough for the majority of people on the majority of websites, to the point where -- eking out those performance gains don't matter quite as much as t... |
**Andreas Kling:** True, yeah. It's a shame we didn't get those superconductors, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I know, right? |
**Jerod Santo:** It was debunked, wasn't it? |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's not all that it cracked up to be. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For a moment there we were all so happy. |
**Andreas Kling:** For a moment, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, it was an interesting week or two, and we were all excited and hopeful, but... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah... No, I think that sort of the success metric that I have is that it just becomes something that's useful to a non-programmer. |
**Jerod Santo:** I like that, yeah. I think that's achievable. I think that's still a lot of work... |
**Andreas Kling:** Definitely. |
**Jerod Santo:** Where would you say it is? If that's 100%, what percentage is it along the path of a potential roadmap to that? |
**Andreas Kling:** Oh, that's a great question. I feel like we're at about 20%. So there's a long way to go. |
**Jerod Santo:** More ahead of you than behind you. More ahead than behind. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, yeah. Because the devil's in the details, I think... And there's gonna be a million little things that we're gonna have to get right... And it's easy to paint with the big strokes, but to get all the details to look good, you're just gonna have to get down in the details and the weeds with a mi... |
I guess I'm hoping that browser developer is not like a magical skill that only some people have, but it's something that -- it's like a gift I can give to everybody; if they want to, they can learn browser development by just joining up and participating, and doing it until they learn how to do it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Does it currently support the video element? Can you put a video element into the page and have a video play? |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, you can. You can. And we can play VP9 video. So we have - Gregory, one of our developers, wrote a VP9 codec, so we can play those. And we have video elements, audio elements, but we don't support a lot of video and audio formats. But we can always add more. It's just, it is hard to implement th... |
It's interesting, because it would obviously be a lot easier to go and just take a bunch of third-party code, glue it all together, and we would have a working browser much, much sooner. |
**Jerod Santo:** Absolutely. |
**Andreas Kling:** But then we would lose something, I think. We would lose that stubborn, amazing feeling of having built this whole thing by ourselves. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:08:15.04\] \[laughs\] Which is kind of the whole point, right? |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** You would miss the forest for the trees. Yeah, you get there faster, maybe it'd be better code or software than you're gonna write personally, or your community, but it's not the point. Like, it's completely missing the point. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, yeah, exactly. And sometimes new people join the community and they ask this question, like why don't we just take this thing? And then somebody explains to them what we're doing, and why it's awesome, and everybody always understands, and then they become one of us. |
**Jerod Santo:** They either get it, or they're out. They're like "You know what? I like that. That's cool. I'll hack on a VP9 codec." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For sure. |
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