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**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. We have just an amazing community of people who are interested in such a diverse range of things... And they just come and work on random stuff that they are interested in, and we patch it together, and we make it into an operating system, and into a browser. There's an interesting amount of co... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You've been saying "we" a few times, or at least most times... Can you quantify, can you extrapolate on maybe Ladybird in particular? ...because that's what you're working at currently now. I know you mentioned community a few times... But can you express some of the "we" behind Ladybird in particul... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. So we have hundreds of contributors who have contributed code throughout the years, since we started five years ago. Of course, not everybody's active, but... We recently passed 900 individual contributors on GitHub, but I think in an average month we tend to see code from about 100 people or s... |
I recently -- because of the funding I mentioned earlier, from some new browser supporters, I've been able to hire a full-time engineer to work on just the browser. So there's sort of a new form of "we" starting to take shape as well, because I'm kind of building a little company... And now I'm looking at hiring a seco... |
There are just a lot of different interests among the people who come. Most people don't want to work on the browser, for example. This is kind of a niche within the SerenityOS community. Most people have some other thing that they want to work on. I just ended up talking about the browser a lot, because that's what I ... |
\[01:12:13.24\] So it's a diverse community, and it's hard to not be, because we have such a huge scope of what we're doing. We have the operating system, with all the different GUI applications, and we have a kernel underneath that, with device drivers, and all kinds of stuff... And we have the language, and we have t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's a lot. |
**Andreas Kling:** That is a lot, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You mentioned company... Cool for you to be able to hire somebody, and cool for them to be able to be hired to work on, to some degree, a toy. A fun toy for folks to play with, and learn, and eventually, maybe it becomes something different, with a long-term goal. How does the company play into that... |
**Andreas Kling:** Right. The company that I have is just kind of a necessity to be able to pay taxes correctly in Sweden, where I live. So it's not a company that aims to make any kind of product. It's more just a way for me to pay my dues with the government, and do everything the right way. But it also allows me to ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And this is through GitHub Sponsors, primarily? |
**Andreas Kling:** Through GitHub Sponsors, and Patreon, and some individual donations as well... Which is what I've been living off of for the last two years. And then when I decided to try fundraising a little bit for Ladybird, it just turned out to be immediately successful. So it kind of changed the whole situation... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Andreas Kling:** ...but also to start to think of it as something that could be more than just a toy, even though it's very far out. And I'm definitely not trying to kid myself about it, and get ahead of myself about the current quality and potential of what we're doing... But I think if you look at like ongoing proj... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. What do you call a non-capitalistic product? Right? I mean, because that's what -- it is a product, but it's not in the sense that it's capitalistic, where you're trying to gain profit necessarily. The profit really is the value to the community, to support the project, to continue, at least i... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. When I was young, we'd call it freeware. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, freeware... I would say it's a gift. |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah, it's kind of like a gift. |
**Jerod Santo:** A good gift. Like, you've put work into it, you've put thought into it, you've probably put money into it... And then you give it to somebody. That's a non-capitalistic product. Like, here's a product, you take it. And that's really what's going on with open source in this pure form, is like, it's a gi... |
**Andreas Kling:** Yeah. And I personally am -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I was feeling bad for calling it a toy as well. I was trying to try to give myself some flex there, because I didn't want to necessarily call it a toy, because it doesn't sound -- |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:15:52.09\] It sounds like you're belittling it to say that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, it sounds like a pejorative, like I'm not trying to be kind to it. It's an unkind thing to call it a toy, which - it's not just a toy, it's... But to say it's an uncapitalistic product is too long-winded. I'm not gonna do that. |
**Andreas Kling:** No, gift is good. But I also think of it as kind of a gift not just to the potential users, but it's also all permissively licensed. So all the code is under a BSD license, so if anybody finds anything that they want to use in our codebase, for any reason, they can just grab it. That's something that... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. So engineers at Apple could take Ladybird, put a nice wrapper around it, and have their next version of a browser, or something. |
**Andreas Kling:** If they wanted to, they would be welcome to. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Well, Andreas, anything that we didn't ask you that you were hoping that we would? You've been waiting around for us to just ask about this, or a particular angle into your story, or anything that we haven't covered yet today? |
**Andreas Kling:** I don't know... \[laughs\] I think it's all good. I hope that I did alright. I feel like I was -- I'm up much later than usually, so I hope I wasn't too low-energy here... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, we apologize for that. We could have flexed on the time, we could have gotten you -- |
**Andreas Kling:** No, it's all good. It's all good. |
**Jerod Santo:** We could have gotten you on earlier in the day. I felt like you delivered on all of what I was expecting, and very thoughtful, very interesting stuff. You make me want to go play with it, but I'm also kind of afraid to go play with it, because I might just be too newbie to -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You might get the bug bite; you might get bitten by the bug. |
**Jerod Santo:** I might. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Next thing you know, you're quitting the Changelog and slinging SerenityOS. Building out a browser, or something. |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm just joining Andreas' Motley Crew of hackers. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Come on now. |
**Jerod Santo:** Hey, that'd be a story. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That would be a story. Let's plug some URLs. So you've got SerenityOS.org. That's the homepage for SerenityOS. And then you've got Ladybird the browser, which is Ladybird.dev. And then you've also got your sponsors page, which you mentioned this is how you're -- at least one of the many legs that yo... |
What else did I miss in terms of where they can go? Do you still have the Patreon? What's the best place to just sort of concentrate the funding, or the donations, or the support? |
**Jerod Santo:** The Discord maybe... |
**Andreas Kling:** So people have different preferences, and I try not to judge... But from my perspective, GitHub Sponsors is preferable, because they take the smallest fees. |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. |
**Andreas Kling:** So if somebody wants to make sure that their gift is -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Maximum impact, yeah. |
**Andreas Kling:** Exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And many tiers there. You've got the monthly, obviously, and you've got the one-times... So if you want to give monthly, there's five or six different tiers there. Or you can do one-time. Everybody knows how GitHub Sponsors works, I'm sure, but... They do make it pretty easy, and I'm glad that they ... |
**Andreas Kling:** The gifts. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** What about my code? If I want to donate my code, is it just github.com? Is it the Discord? Where's the best place to engage with you all in the community and become a Serenity hacker? |
**Andreas Kling:** Right. So the best place to come chat is on our Discord server, which is at discord.gg/SerenityOS. And if you have code to contribute, then come hang out with us on GitHub as well, at github.com/SerenityOS/Serenity. |
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