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[186.90 --> 190.54] applications without having to mess with infrastructure in what way has infrastructure |
[190.54 --> 196.42] failed specifically application developers i think if one was to compare what it looked like to build an |
[196.42 --> 203.08] application 10 plus years ago to today it's gotten more complex not less complex there's a bewildering |
[203.08 --> 209.34] amount of frameworks i think google for all their amazing work they do has had a bad influence on how |
[209.34 --> 213.32] people build systems because oftentimes when someone's got a web app these days they're told to |
[213.32 --> 218.18] like learn kubernetes or something ridiculous like that you know these infrastructure platforms |
[218.18 --> 224.40] really resemble the shape of the underlying implementation not the shape of the problem |
[224.40 --> 229.06] that the application developers facing and so even when before we started comics we're talking to |
[229.06 --> 234.78] customers people like well i just want someone to like manage my kafka cluster and i say well why do you |
[234.78 --> 240.00] even have kafka and like well i don't really know i think the database falls over if i don't put a queue |
[240.00 --> 245.76] in front of it or like i need to like buffer some data somewhere and what became clear is is that the |
[245.76 --> 250.28] the tools just weren't serving the needs of the application developers and i think application |
[250.28 --> 254.74] developers and framework front-end framework engineers understand the problem space because |
[254.74 --> 258.58] they spend all day doing it they sometimes don't have the power to to fix the problem because they |
[258.58 --> 264.00] don't build the database themselves and i think oftentimes infra folks don't have enough empathy for the |
[264.00 --> 267.12] application developer that at the end of the day there's all that matters is the application |
[267.12 --> 272.74] okay if you're looking for a better type of back-end convex is the full stack typescript |
[272.74 --> 277.44] development platform you've been looking for replace your database server functions and glue code |
[277.44 --> 285.24] get started at convex.dev that's c-o-n-v-e-x.dev again convex.dev |
[293.24 --> 293.94] so |
[294.00 --> 322.38] let's talk about the last two weeks of your life |
[322.38 --> 328.88] yeah what's what's happened what's going on what do you how you feel i feel good i feel good so |
[328.88 --> 334.78] last two weeks i've left my job where did you work i worked at hashi corp i've heard of them |
[334.78 --> 339.58] yeah i was there for about five years so it's a long time it was a while four years ten months or |
[339.58 --> 344.16] whatever it was and what'd you do there uh i started in support engineering went to software |
[344.16 --> 348.86] engineering for terraform enterprise got promoted there went that route but when i left i was pretty |
[348.86 --> 355.48] much the terraform enterprise subject matter expert um working on terraform enterprise so yeah software |
[355.48 --> 362.74] engineering bunch of like docker go kubernetes things yeah pretty fun um it's funny what he said |
[362.74 --> 367.20] terraform there i'm not even kidding with you i legit thought he said tofu |
[367.20 --> 374.64] you're kidding me aren't you no i really am not kidding you they don't have any tofu there i thought |
[374.64 --> 382.08] he said i was on the tofu enterprise team i ate some tofu but i never used it yeah it was that was a fun |
[382.08 --> 387.36] that announcement the license change announcement was a very fun time at hashi corp i will say |
[387.36 --> 392.84] tell us about it from the inside i mean i wish i could come up here and say like the inside was |
[392.84 --> 398.76] different in the sense of like we were made aware and you know we we had all this notice and da da da |
[398.76 --> 404.68] it wasn't we found out the same time you all found out so from the inside yeah the same yeah the same |
[404.68 --> 409.98] day that you all found out the announcement that's how that's how we found out which doesn't really |
[409.98 --> 414.32] inspire a lot of like you know yeah it didn't make me happy i will say what we're not asking you to |
[414.32 --> 419.70] do just to be clear is to just talk smack yeah i think what these podcasts serve as in my opinion is |
[419.70 --> 425.26] like the facts of what really happened yeah the sentiment right it's less like oh they're bad and |
[425.26 --> 430.06] open source good it's more like what really happened so that one we just know as developers |
[430.06 --> 435.34] because there's an assumption from the outside oh people knew in advance and this was orchestrated |
[435.34 --> 440.14] well maybe it was at some level so i just talked to somebody else in dev advocacy today |
[440.14 --> 446.24] and she said they knew three days in advance yeah so dev advocacy knew maybe a couple days |
[446.24 --> 451.18] yeah but engineers senior engineers on the tofu i mean the terraform team |
[451.18 --> 456.74] well i didn't know like hash group's a an interesting company right because they're like a company of |
[456.74 --> 462.28] companies if you think about it right they have multiple projects right nomad vol terraform console |
[462.28 --> 468.44] all their projects they have a bunch of projects and each of those teams kind of operates by like you |
[468.44 --> 472.56] know in autonomy by themselves they contribute to each other's code base they have shared libraries |
[472.56 --> 477.32] and stuff but for the most part terraform's terraform vault's vault nomad's nomad so from the terraform |
[477.32 --> 483.20] side we were pretty shocked and mind you i was on terraform enterprise right so our licensure all that |
[483.20 --> 488.14] has never changed terraform open source changed so i wasn't on the terraform open source team maybe |
[488.14 --> 492.36] they knew in advance but for me on the terraform enterprise team we did not know in advance i guess |
[492.36 --> 497.36] it kind of makes sense to some degree that enterprise doesn't need to know right because you don't |
[497.36 --> 502.58] really not so much care but it's your underpinnings your customers that are buying right from the |
[502.58 --> 505.98] open source and the customers that are buying the enterprise product are paying for it right they're |
[505.98 --> 511.24] going through that that sales process anyway right i think though when you make a major shift like that |
[511.24 --> 517.10] the story arc quickly for hashicorp mitchell hashimoto created it years ago when he created vagrant |
[517.10 --> 521.58] actually a couple years after vagrant it was successful enough to create a company that created |
[521.58 --> 525.88] products yeah that lived in open core but also had paid models around it it was very successful |
[525.88 --> 530.66] so successful that they ipo'd you're part of that company i was very definitely happy for that |
[530.66 --> 533.96] right which is a great thing yeah and i think when you're at that level you probably should |
[533.96 --> 538.20] communicate to the people around you in your company to say is this a right is this a wise move |
[538.20 --> 545.22] like yeah we are so ingrained given that success in the dev culture and the dev community terraform |
[545.22 --> 550.42] is such a used software that they the community was like that's not cool we're gonna fork it |
[550.42 --> 555.56] yeah and make our own thing it's that it was that impactful when you make software tools and products |
[555.56 --> 560.80] that are that impactful you probably should ask for is this the right way to handle this agreed can we |
[560.80 --> 567.16] do is there a better way i mean looking at the open source repos there's definitely people that are |
[567.16 --> 572.56] happy to use hashicor products they love the products they are very active on the issues pull requests |
[572.56 --> 577.80] and all that and yeah there there there was a time where where terraform was short-staffed and there |
[577.80 --> 583.04] was a public read me update or an issue where they told the community hey we're a little short-staffed |
[583.04 --> 590.04] in the next couple months let's uh you know we're gonna slow down on reviewing yeah open prs but that |
[590.04 --> 595.10] was communicated and yeah the the community looks at that and says hey you know like hey what's going |
[595.10 --> 599.22] on with terraform but it was communicated to the community and they're aware right they're kept in the |
[599.22 --> 604.22] loop that's something that i would have probably expected to happen with the projects with the |
[604.22 --> 608.30] license change but that didn't happen so i was kind of a shock about that right like you would expect |
[608.30 --> 612.82] that to have been communicated to the community more in advance i guess what i'm trying to say |
[612.82 --> 619.54] you know so it's kind of a shock when it wasn't did you leave because of that or that was one of the |
[619.54 --> 625.82] the motivating factors of why why i left right it was just the shift in the engineering culture |
[625.82 --> 632.26] like move away towards that more product culture kind of did it for me right i mean when i joined |
[632.26 --> 637.90] hashi corp there was about 350 people when i left there was about 2 000 and obviously when i went to |
[637.90 --> 643.60] the ipo with them and whatnot um so that was one of the reasons too yeah you know it's like you're no |
[643.60 --> 648.66] longer working on open source you're working on source available if you think about it right yeah |
[648.66 --> 652.74] that's interesting though because you feel that way even though you're on the enterprise team yeah |
[652.74 --> 658.78] so just because you're in in a silo that isn't really benefited or involved in the creation of |
[658.78 --> 662.90] the open source you still care exactly right if you think about the enterprise the whole point of |
[662.90 --> 667.52] the enterprise product is to be able to use the open source product in a way that you control in |
[667.52 --> 671.90] your own data center in your own cloud or whatever right use it in a way that you get the r back you get |
[671.90 --> 678.24] the cicd kind of pipeline ish aspect to it you want to be able to use that but at the end of the day it |
[678.24 --> 683.52] it relies on the open source product to even be functional right so when you take up when you |
[683.52 --> 689.40] take that out i don't know do you destroy trust maybe i don't know right it's hard to say yeah |
[689.40 --> 702.00] how big is your team we were about 10 engineers in like june then hashcorp did a layoff in june |
[702.00 --> 707.32] then we dropped to eight engineers and then a few fewer engineers went on maternity leave and then i |
[707.32 --> 713.62] left so when i left we were five so seven if you count the staff but yeah i don't count the staff |
[713.62 --> 721.84] engineers like in that so were your colleagues equally as shocked were they also upset what was |
[721.84 --> 727.68] the general vibe on your team uh some of them were pretty frustrated with it some of them were like i |
[727.68 --> 732.90] don't care we're enterprise doesn't really matter yeah that was kind of the vibe me i was more so |
[732.90 --> 739.26] like affected by it because i was looking to like transfer teams a year before that to an open source |
[739.26 --> 744.24] team to specifically work on the open source product and not the enterprise product and that team also |
[744.24 --> 749.60] had their license changed so for me i was like that that sucks but the team sentiment was pretty good |
[749.60 --> 754.32] right like being close to the money is nice right tower from enterprise made a pretty good revenue chunk |
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