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[754.32 --> 759.12] for for hashcorp and most people were like eh we're okay we're making we're still making money we're |
[759.12 --> 764.04] fine don't care with license that's fair this might be tmi but can you talk at all about your slack |
[764.04 --> 770.20] message yeah yeah overview of it yeah i can give an overview of it that's that was a good one so |
[770.20 --> 777.34] like every company hashcorp has channels in their slack where you can monitor where they like talk about |
[777.34 --> 781.20] the competition or they have a twitter feed channel all that stuff right where you talk about |
[781.20 --> 786.62] you know what's going on in the industry around us and there is one for competition and open tofu |
[786.62 --> 791.30] came up a lot in that channel obviously people were like oh they don't know what they're doing |
[791.30 --> 795.46] some people were like oh you know they're gonna they're gonna eat our lunch and the sentiment was |
[795.46 --> 799.82] spread out they had people that were like they're gonna take our business and other people were like |
[799.82 --> 804.94] nah they're they're nothing and it was interesting though but there was one message there was like |
[804.94 --> 810.18] when open tofu finally announced like that they went to what the linux foundation and they're trying to go |
[810.18 --> 814.08] to the cntf but then they announced their name change because they were open tf right and then |
[814.08 --> 818.24] they changed open tofu when they announced that someone posted that mess like you know that |
[818.24 --> 825.48] announcement yeah in the slack channel and i replied and verbatim what i said was like you know i wish |
[825.48 --> 830.60] i i wish them well overall right like i'm rooting for them overall but that name sucks that's what i said |
[830.60 --> 835.54] right verbatim that's what i said i don't like the name open tofu i've never been a fan of it that's fine |
[835.54 --> 843.78] but that's what i said to in the chat um and yeah like i i got pretty good uh backlash for that |
[843.78 --> 851.06] comment oh really yeah i was i was shocked and why this was like two two to three days before my last |
[851.06 --> 856.88] day at ashtacore so i had already put my like notice in and all that stuff but i was just engaging |
[856.88 --> 862.58] conversation i was like hey you know like i wish them well but i don't like the name whatever and i had |
[862.58 --> 869.46] backlash from that comment where i guess two days passed and someone went to leadership and said hey |
[869.46 --> 876.24] matthew's comment in slack they're not rooting for hashi corp they're rooting for open open tofu they |
[876.24 --> 882.08] want us to fail da da da and i was like what that's not even what i said so that made it back to me |
[882.08 --> 887.96] through my manager and i was legitimately just shocked i was like wait a minute what what are you |
[887.96 --> 892.92] even saying here right yeah so that that was kind of like a an eye-opener to me i was like |
[892.92 --> 899.06] that was a little weird in my respect but what are you gonna do right like things happen yeah so |
[899.06 --> 904.84] are you at cockroach labs now i start in like a couple weeks yeah you're actually representing them |
[904.84 --> 910.64] i do i have them on the badge despite not truly what if they rescind their offer they could they |
[910.64 --> 916.52] could they sure can it's business it's business what makes you excited about cockroach just uh the |
[916.52 --> 920.96] distributed systems problems that i'll be able to like get into and solve right like so comparing |
[920.96 --> 925.70] it and contrasting it to where i was and now hash core great company cool cool people right some of |
[925.70 --> 932.04] the nicest and smartest ic's i've ever worked with there and good products but they build the tools |
[932.04 --> 938.32] they don't necessarily like run the tools at the scale that the customers do right yeah uh whereas |
[938.32 --> 942.24] cockroach they create the database they run the database as a managed service so i'll get to |
[942.24 --> 947.48] in like interact with those distributed systems problems that's what draws me there um so yeah |
[947.48 --> 951.96] also some licensing issues there too wasn't there some licensing issues at cockroach yeah they so |
[951.96 --> 955.64] which i think it's fair to change and it's fair to protect but that's the thing right like |
[955.64 --> 960.92] people with my comment in the slack that we were talking about people were saying like oh you know |
[960.92 --> 965.62] the license is good you're just like you know you want hash core to fail it's like no i don't the |
[965.62 --> 971.00] license i'm not mad about the license what i'm mad about is the lack of transparency right right right and |
[971.00 --> 976.38] that's kind of what what got me and then the company i'm going to cockroach they have the |
[976.38 --> 982.00] same license right they're under the bsl license as well yeah yeah i thought it was sspl but i'm |
[982.00 --> 986.32] probably wrong i think it's bsl i gotta check too you're probably right and i'm probably wrong but |
[986.32 --> 991.10] there's a lot of licensing we cover over the years so much my licensing wires might get crossed |
[991.10 --> 994.96] and in the time that i left hash core and before i started cockroach i've been like |
[994.96 --> 1000.28] unplugged in a break mode i just gave myself a little time to i think they've always been just |
[1000.28 --> 1003.82] clear too cockroach has always been clear about where they're trying to what they're trying to do |
[1003.82 --> 1010.26] but it makes sense cockroach db is a service that you're going to run long-running service that's |
[1010.26 --> 1016.12] going to provide value to whatever applications you run if you notice the licensing conversations |
[1016.12 --> 1021.88] around hashicorp have primarily been focused on terraform but all of hashicorp's license changed |
[1021.88 --> 1028.52] yeah right vagrant nomad vault console right all of them all of them change so it's like when you think |
[1028.52 --> 1032.54] about when you step back and you say why are people upset about the terraform license change |
[1032.54 --> 1038.72] versus the other products like vault or whatever it kind of breaks down where vault and them are |
[1038.72 --> 1045.02] services and terraform's a tool right so then when you apply that to like you know cockroach or even |
[1045.02 --> 1050.46] elastic right there there's services that run yeah terraform's a tool i don't know if it made sense to |
[1050.46 --> 1054.92] change the license of a tool it does make sense to change the license of a service yeah because you |
[1054.92 --> 1060.30] don't want like other providers providing that service on your behalf and whatnot yeah and they |
[1060.30 --> 1064.82] fundamentally use it a different way right right like you're gonna plug into a service and have it |
[1064.82 --> 1070.90] operated or operated yourself yeah a tool you're gonna build things with on top of yeah right modify |
[1070.90 --> 1077.54] more etc and so they are approached very differently and so that's why why the reaction is quite a bit |
[1077.54 --> 1081.96] different agreed yeah it was it was interesting thing for sure i mean again we don't know what's |
[1081.96 --> 1087.62] gonna happen i just felt like i don't know i don't know if the communication was fully like |
[1087.62 --> 1095.00] thought through in that sense you probably saw the faq pages they kept adding faq like messages there |
[1095.00 --> 1100.16] and it's i don't know it's it's it's a weird one but what i thought was interesting is so i downloaded |
[1100.16 --> 1106.36] open tofu played with it used it despite the name despite the name yeah i just i just renamed the binary |
[1106.36 --> 1111.54] yeah it's fine it's okay alias the fact to what we had a conversation in our slack about the name |
[1111.54 --> 1115.04] as well i bet everybody in their slack had a conversation about the name of course i thought |
[1115.04 --> 1121.10] open tf was a totally fine name i thought so too but they wanted a cute mascot apparently |
[1121.10 --> 1126.46] and so they went with the tofu i think they probably wanted to get further away from the word terraform or |
[1126.46 --> 1131.64] tf in particular i mean it's obviously i think it's enforceable through some sort of i mean yeah |
[1131.64 --> 1138.44] it's probably had to yeah it's an obvious derivative correct of its predecessor right |
[1138.44 --> 1144.42] correct so i mean it's not like you could argue that it's just shortened to open tf yeah i also |
[1144.42 --> 1149.98] not a huge fan of the name but go ahead you were saying you ran it yeah i ran it used it like some of |
[1149.98 --> 1154.56] their first of all i think they made a really smart decision if i were in their position i'd do the same |
[1154.56 --> 1159.38] thing right if i was in their position of the companies that got together and and started that that |
[1159.38 --> 1164.36] foundation all that i would do the exact same thing they did right why wouldn't you right like |
[1164.36 --> 1168.36] you have an opportunity there you have people that are willing to throw engineering time and then there |
[1168.36 --> 1172.64] were a few like quick win features that you could have added like the encrypted save file and whatnot |
[1172.64 --> 1178.58] so it made sense for them to to do what they did so what do you think of their claim so one of the |
[1178.58 --> 1185.20] things that josh padnick said on the show was about the amount of effort dedicated to terraform |
[1185.20 --> 1191.92] versus open tofu and he stated like based on github public you know activity on the repos |
[1191.92 --> 1197.28] and who's actually working on a handful of people and he's saying we had 15 i think they said 15 |
[1197.28 --> 1202.58] engineers at the time i don't know dedicated full-time resources do you think that's a accurate |
[1202.58 --> 1205.74] from your perspective and then b do you think that's going to really you know move the needle |
[1205.74 --> 1212.38] uh i think that's relatively accurate if you if you keep to if you just talk about terraform |
[1212.38 --> 1217.12] open source as itself right because terraform is kind of a beast of a of a tool right you have the |
[1217.12 --> 1220.82] open source binary that's responsible for like the graphing and whatnot and you have the providers |
[1220.82 --> 1226.06] that actually communicate with the apis if you look at the open source part of the product then yeah |
[1226.06 --> 1229.26] there's probably just a handful of engineers working there but then there's like various |
[1229.26 --> 1236.40] little ecosystem teams cli experience teams provider teams and then the the team i quotes i air |
[1236.40 --> 1241.76] quotes the team of terraform expands beyond that right but realistically speaking the major |
[1241.76 --> 1247.52] providers you're already partnering with like aws google azure all that for those providers so |
[1247.52 --> 1251.36] you're kind of already sharing that bandwidth but if you just focus on the core i think they're |
[1251.36 --> 1257.02] correct there's only about a handful of engineers that work on the core core so can open tofu pull |
[1257.02 --> 1263.26] it off with their 15 or so engineers i don't see why not yeah right i think my worry with them is |
[1263.26 --> 1269.16] a lot of companies are coming together to work on open tofu and maybe for now the companies have an |
[1269.16 --> 1274.24] alignment on where they're going but will that always remain hard to say right what happens when |
[1274.24 --> 1278.56] conflict arises and one company wants to go one way and one wants to go the other way what do they do |
[1278.56 --> 1283.00] yeah you know one thing i was trying to drill down with him which i don't think i ever quite got the |
[1283.00 --> 1288.54] question asked in a way that he understood it was it seems like they have a lot of logos |
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