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**Gerhard Lazu:** You have a nice voice, Jerod. That's what it is. Let's be honest. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's not how I say it, it's how I say it. No, I'm really joking. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** It's how you hear it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. \[laughter\] It's not my voice that's great, it's the things I'm saying. That's the best. Just kidding. But I love our Kaizens. If the interviews never came back, I could get over it. If the Kaizens never continued, I don't think I could get over it. So we don't know exactly what's coming next, b... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I love it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** If you remember, one of the ideas for the show titles before Ship It was Kaizen. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's how -- it's so embedded within me... I mean, I never see myself stop doing that. And the fact that we can talk about it - I think it's great. The cadence makes sense. It fits with everything. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. And in fact, your idea to us, your pitch for this show was basically just the Kaizen stuff. And I said, "Nobody wants to listen to us every week talk about our platform every week. We need to mix in some interviews." And so that became Ship It. It was the interview shows, and then I thought you ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, I think so, too. And I really liked the new GitHub discussions... I mean, we had the one for Kaizen eight, now we have for 40, which is discussion for Kaizen nine, which is this episode... And it captures all the things. I think that works really, really well. You have the written format, you ha... |
**Jerod Santo:** Adam, do you wanna chime in here? You've been nodding along, but you haven't said anything. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I think he's too sad. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I am a little too sad, honestly. I was having trouble coming up with words, because you know, ending is always challenging. I guess pausing is a little easier. But it's bittersweet for me, because there's a lot to like about it, obviously, and there's a lot that came from our deeper relationship, an... |
\[10:38\] I mean, for a while there I had to pause Founders Talk, and other things that were way back in the day, to make sure that we can focus on the Changelog podcast. A couple years back Mireille and I paused Brain Science because it was just too fast of a clip for us; we were both really busy... We're still in the... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** 100%. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** On the note of more video stuff though, and this experimentation, and this Kaizen, and some of it... It sounds like what we really wanted from this was the experimentation and the freedom, and then the cadence of the actual podcast... Which, I agree, a weekly podcast is incredibly hard to do. If you... |
However, even like on today's topic, like DHH, and cloud, that conversation out there, like this backlash against the cloud... Like, I would have loved if -- that show was great, by the way. I loved that episode. But like in terms of experimentation and videos on YouTube, I would love to see -- because you don't have t... |
**Jerod Santo:** Adam, you just said behind the screen. Was that a slip of the tongue, or are you workshopping a new title scheme? \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You know, always, Jerod. Always. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I like where this is going... \[laughter\] Behind the keyboard. |
**Jerod Santo:** Have you done that on purpose, or...? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Not away from the keyboard; behind keyboard, behind the screen, behind the camera. |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. So that's the big news. That's probably a surprise to most, if not all, in terms of Ship It subscribers. A lot of these people are like - they listen to Ship It every week, and they just heard this, and they're like "Well, that sucks for me." Touchpoints - like, we're talking about potent... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[14:14\] Yeah. So I'm still on Twitter. It's still a thing. I'm on Changelog.social, even though I haven't tweeted anything yet, if that's a thing to do it... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Tooted. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I haven't tooted, there we go. Sorry. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You toot there. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** See? I'm not up to date on all these things, so I think that's an area worth improving. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** No one wants to be up to date with that word. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. I'm still very much on the Changelog Slack, on the Changelog GitHub... That's where I intend to spend more time, since this whole Kaizen thing behind the scenes for Changelog is not going to stop. We'll still be improving things, there's pull requests, there's issues, there's all sorts of things... |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. So not continuous delivery, but some sort of delivery... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Not of episodes, because there are so many other things, right? I mean, it has to be meaningful. I remember, for example, the Merry Shipmas, episode 33. That took a lot of early mornings, late nights and weekends. I have no idea how I could make time at that point for it. It was crazy. I no longer hav... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It might make sense to say how we got here, which I think if you listened to this show since the beginning, you know kind of how we got here... But how we got here originally was like you, Gerhard, was our SRE for hire, essentially. You helped us stand up our infrastructure way back in 2016, when -- |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's correct. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...when Jerod was exploring delivering and deploying an Elixir application to production. I'm paraphrasing the story, of course, but how we got here was by shipping, and we would talk about that once a year on the Changelog podcast. We liked doing that so much... We're essentially just regressing ba... |
**Jerod Santo:** Not once a year, though. More than once a year. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, maybe less than once a year, but back to the blueprint of you're still working with us on our infrastructure; that's not changing. We're gonna still keep improving that; that's not changing. We'll keep developing partnerships. One of the ones we've just formed recently was Typesense. Behind th... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[17:49\] Exactly. That's exactly right. And in a way, we are kind of going back to the beginning from the shipping side of things, because we have a huge improvement that went out in the last two and a half months... And there's even more amazing stuff coming out in the next two and a half months, so... |
**Jerod Santo:** It was Ansible and Concourse CI. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** There we go. Concourse CI. Exactly. So in a way, we are back there, right? It's the continuation of Concourse CI, it's the continuation of that... There is a PaaS now, which is Fly... But again, it's going to be a lot more. Integration with services... And I know that Jerod is missing certain things..... |
**Break:** \[18:59\] |
**Jerod Santo:** So describe to us this big update, this big improvement that you did over the last two and a half months. I think we touched on it in Kaizen 8, but it wasn't finished... Now, this was a Dagger version 0.3, I believe... First of all, explain what the improvement is, and then you can get into what you ha... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So Merry Shipmas - I keep coming back to that, episode 33 - we introduced Dagger in the context of Changelog. What that meant is that we were migrating from Circle CI to GitHub Actions. Rather than trading one YAML for another YAML, I thought "Wouldn't it be nice if we had CI running locally first, an... |
Beginning of 2022 I joined Dagger. We did a lot of improvements, and end of last year, which was just a few months ago, we released SDKs, which means that you can write your CI/CD system, your pipelines, in code. Whether it's Python, whether it's Go, whether it's Node.js, it's no more YAML, it's no more weird things, w... |
\[21:56\] And I say "declares" because it's lots of function calls. Sort of like lazy chaining, which eventually gets translated into a dag, hence Dagger, the name. And then, everything gets materialized behind the scenes. Some things are cached, naturally, other things aren't. |
So that means that right now we are in the phase where, from Dagger 0.1, which is using CUE, we now have Go in our codebase. And I want to know how do you feel about that, Jerod? How do you feel about having your Elixir spoiled (hopefully not) by some Go code? |
**Jerod Santo:** No, I feel good about it. I feel like a renaissance man. We have all these different things; we taste of the best Elixirs, and we also can just pull in some Go when we want to... I mean, that's diversity, that's inclusion... I'm happy about it. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's amazing. So no more YAML... |
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