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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, so you guys are just running -- I imagine you're just running experiments nonstop, right? Because you're trying to figure out how these things work. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yes, absolutely. And we are actually constantly building, because we have done huge progress since we started. We built a whole laboratory, a very stable system for working on neurons. And also, now it's available remotely, so we are also busy with many users from all over the world... So we invited... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[40:13\] Really? |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yeah. We didn't plan for this, but people started to write to us that they would like to try, that they would like to get access to the lab... And yes, now we have two types of subscription, and we have users who are coming to us and testing neurons. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is this the Betamax versus VHS all over again, in terms of quantum computing versus - would you call this bioprocessors? How would you frame this? Because it seems like you're both trying to solve a similar problem. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Bioprocessor, very good. Or biocomputing. We call it biocomputing, bioprocessor... So no, I wouldn't say it's in competition, because this is a totally different mechanism, different things. So we know quantum computing actually is very fast, and it can maybe be good for encryption of information...... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. I was thinking more like one may win, or one may actually prove to be fruitful in terms of viability... That's kind of what I was thinking like. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yeah, actually, I think that the future will be that we will have very different type of hardware, because generally, you can see this kind of direction. It's not only quantum, not only biocomputing. People are also working on many specific chips, also digital, which are optimized for some specific ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Jerod, I think this was on a \#define where we talked about this, but do you recall talking about slime molds, and subway systems? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, like a couple of years ago. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, just this really -- it was recent. I want to say in the last year... We were talking about the concept of slime molds being very sophisticated. |
**Jerod Santo:** They use slime to design the subway systems, or something? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. Routing, essentially. Like, efficient pathways to X. And they compare that to subway systems, and the way we route, which is more like cause and effect, really. We're very reactive... But it's very similar in terms of like bio. You've got this intelligence of sorts. Not intelligence like it's... |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yeah, I think people are also inspired by insects or different biological things... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, why not. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** ...in computation. Yes, there are such projects also. |
**Jerod Santo:** Ewelina, what industries are interested in this? You said you have these users all of a sudden... Which industries want this as a thing? |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** I would say we have three types of users. Individuals/fascinated engineers, or small startups. Some of them want to do something related to biocomputing... That's why they want to use our platform. And big companies, which have R&D teams; very large companies which have R&D teams which want to do so... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[44:16\] Okay, so that's cool... What kind of stuff are they trying to do? You don't have to give specific examples or anything like that, but... |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** No, actually this is confidential. What our clients are doing is confidential. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** But we have universities which are using our lab for free, and they are going to publish. So actually, that's why we chose them. We chose those who have the highest chance to publish. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure, that makes sense. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** And actually, there will be some papers coming for what people are doing, so I hope everyone will be able to see. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's cool. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** And we will be promoting this, for sure. |
**Jerod Santo:** What's at the other end of my Python API call? So we talked about what was at the neuron platform end... Like, a UV light turns on, or some sort of electrode electrolyzes... What do I get back? Like, I make a call... Is it like a one/zero? Is it like a success/fail? Is there more information coming bac... |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yes. So what you get in response is the electrical activity of neurons. So this is what you can see also in our website, on the live section. So the way how you can measure activity of neurons is a few different ways. You can get a yes/no response. So this is spike trains. This kind of data you get ... |
And of course then you can have -- you know, people try to have different ways of interpreting the data. This is actually -- it's a big room for creativity. For the moment, we look for example how late, what was the delay before we saw the signal... Or we can see the distance between the signal, for example, how often ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** And a lot of data. |
**Jerod Santo:** Can you target a specific neuron or organoid, to like make sure that your call goes to the same place every time, or no? |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** No. Actually, you have eight electrodes. So every electrode is in a little bit different place of the organoid. And then you can target specific electrodes. You can, for example, use only a few of them, or you can use, for example, four of them for sending signals, and four of them for receiving sig... |
\[47:57\] And what is also interesting is not every electrode is always active, because sometimes you might have less signal, or no signal at some of the electrodes. So it's really complicated. It's very difficult to work with a living tissue. Sometimes they are just not active also. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So they have -- how do you know when they're about to die? You mentioned inefficiency, you mentioned one day doesn't work the same as the next... We know earlier in your research they would die in hours, now they die in hundreds of days, I think... Help me understand terminology, is that right, and ... |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** So there is at least one thing which is easy... So this is easy, to see if they die or not, because they are not active. So living neurons - they are spontaneously active electrically, so they will always produce some spikes, and you will see them on the electrodes, on the measurements. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** So this is quite easy to say that they are dead. If there is no activity, you assume they are dead. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** And actually, you are right, because also batches are different. And this is also what you can see on our website... Because a few of our neurospheres are monitored there. You can see that the activity is not always the same. Sometimes it's active, sometimes less active... So all this you can see ve... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. One thing I think is interesting too is the environment it has to live in, which - we talked a little bit about quantum computing, and then compared it to biocomputing... That there has to be a sterile environment, no viruses. Can you talk -- I know you are in a lab, or at least early days of ... |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yes, so environment is very important. Neurons are very fragile. And the environment has to be physiological, so the same as in our bodies. So there has to be physiological temperature, there has to be, of course, always liquid around... Neurons are in the medium, so this is water with the different... |
And this is why also we believe in these bioservers, in the central servers idea, because we think that it will be easier to control these conditions of the neurons when they will be in a central server. So that's also the reason why we -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So not likely to have a home version of this in the early stages of this. Like, you want to centralize it at some sort of data center, or a space where the environment can be better controlled. |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yes, absolutely. And we imagine we have the same what we have today, but much bigger. |
**Jerod Santo:** How big is what you have today? |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Well, now we have two rooms for the laboratory, so we are growing... We started with one, a little lab. And our neurospheres are a few millimeters diameter. 10,000 neurons each. So they are very, very small, but for experiments it's enough. And in the future we imagine to have huge structures, even ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I have so many questions about the details of that, but you can't really ask them until you guys know how they work exactly... Because I think a lot of the decisions will be based on how they work. Like, how many neurons will I need to do a thing? And it's like "Well, we don't know, because we do... |
**Ewelina Kurtys:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[52:17\] It seems like it's going to be exotic use cases. And I imagine, as somebody who's been at the doctorate level, the PhD level of this, from neuroscience to this laboratory stage, that you probably see at least some very exotic use cases. It has to have a unique environment, you plan to cent... |
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