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**Jerod Santo:** Okay... Did you upgrade? Did you downgrade? Did you side grade? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Side grade. I have a 1290 Super-Duke now. The roads here are more fun, and the weather's more amenable to motorcycling, so it's a good change. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. And there in SF, it's got to be -- you're in the San Francisco area, is that what you said? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Lots of hills. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. They're fun, too. |
**Jerod Santo:** Fun a.k.a. dangerous, depending on your appetite for destruction, I guess... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Pretty much. |
**Jerod Santo:** So Atuin - such a cool tool. Very few times do I cover a tool in Changelog News and then install it and then use it, and it integrates itself into my life... And it's been years now. So I just use it happily, Control+R for the win. I love it. I don't use probably any of the fancy stuff that you've adde... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** You can use it to back up as well. It's pretty good for that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, that's true. And you had some cool stuff with how you're handling sync, and how you do that without violating privacy, and there was all kinds of talk about that... And then you continue to work on it, and now you're working on something that's very related and very cool and different, which is A... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah, sure. So the CLI records every shell command you run, is kind of the whole point. It makes it really easy to recall them. But what is trickier with that is sort of recording whole workflows. So if you're looking for an individual command, it's great. It's really easy. But if I was looking for ... |
\[07:50\] So what it is is it's essentially a runbook editor. What I mean by that is we started off by just building something that was good for recording notes and documentation. You can just write English words down, and share them with people... But where it gets really powerful is the executable blocks we added. So... |
A lot of people have asked how this is relevant to the CLI, and I can kind of see that it might not be immediately obvious. However, where it does become quite powerful with the CLI is all of the data you've been recording in your case over years in the CLI, is accessible in the Desktop app, too. So you can screw aroun... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, that's really cool. So if I recall correctly, you had full-time jobs at one point, which was at -- I remember PostHog. What was it, before? Was it Coinbase? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Coinbase before that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, so a couple of serious jobs. And then you had quit your jobs in order to do this, open source, try to make it sustainable, living the dream, so to speak... And there was a question on "Well, where do you take it from here?" And desktop seems like a good place to take it, because you're not just s... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Maybe a separate conversation, but I think DevOps kind of like failed. |
**Jerod Santo:** DevOps is over? Okay... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** \[laughs\] But no, it's sort of platform, SRE, DevOps... Whatever you want to call it. People that do SSH-ing and Kubernetes and stuff for their jobs. |
**Jerod Santo:** We used to be called sysadmins back in the day. I feel like we abandoned that because we wanted to get a raise, you know... But at the end of the day - I mean, you're administering systems, so I like the term sysadmin. I always have. I probably always will. How does it work? I mean, how does -- do you ... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Atuin, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Atuin. Kind of like Tatooine. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Pretty close, actually. Maybe we should change the logo to have like a turtle and a desert planet. That would be pretty cool. |
**Jerod Santo:** That would be cool. The turtle is cute though, so that always gets me going... But Atuin Desktop - how does it work? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Ooph... It has a lot going on. \[laughs\] |
**Jerod Santo:** It was an easy question for me to ask. It sounds like it would be a hard one for you to answer. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. So, I mean, at a very high level, it's a desktop app. It's not an Electron app, it's a Tauri app - I'm not sure if I'm saying that correctly - which is a web view, but it's your system web view, instead of a copy of Chrome. And the backend's all written in Rust, which I'm very happy with, inst... |
So to start off with, you're just editing -- you have a choice between a local file, which is currently essentially JSON. We're working on that. YAML, sorry. But again, we're working on that. Or you can use our hub, which you sign up for, you can create an organization or a single player, and it provides sort automatic... |
So right now we can't -- again, we released this as beta. There's still a lot of like "Right now it doesn't, but it will" going on. But a lot of the execution is written in Rust, and the idea there is we can bring it to be a runtime which is embedded in a desktop app, that runs in a CLI, all over the place, for executi... |
\[12:03\] My kind of long-term vision there, I guess, is that current automation is kind of an all or nothing approach. You start off with "Someone might maybe have documented something", and that's that alone is a stretch. Or you kind of have to write a million lines of YAML and have it 100% automated. And we find tha... |
The idea of the desktop app is to kind of make it easier to meet people where they might be comfortable, and that might just be writing down what you need to do, but it might be automating the whole thing with our blocks, and then running it with our runtime. So it's designed to be flexible enough to handle most sort o... |
**Jerod Santo:** Mm-hm. So there's probably a group of our listeners who, when you say "Runbooks that run", which is one of the catchphrases for Atuin Desktop - they live in runbooks, they write runbooks, they copy and paste stuff all the time, they use their shell history all the time... And then there's other ones, m... |
For those who don't understand runbooks all that well, besides like "It's a script of some kind", or "It's a list of things that I must do", can you expand more on what kind of stuff a runbook can do, and how they're usually used? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. We've found a bunch of use cases. It could start off just being super-simple, almost like what you might write a readme for, in our system anyway. So go install these dependencies, run this migration command, run this command to generate some fixtures etc, etc. So it can be very sequential, "r... |
So you might have a home lab somewhere that has a bunch of setup required, and things can run over SSH, too... So it can show you -- yeah, you can use it for setting up a remote system, too. So maybe you need to set up your ZFS, and then you need to install K3S, or Docker Compose, or however you're running things, and ... |
**Jerod Santo:** So one of the challenges I think with this, especially in the diverse world of computers that we live in nowadays, is different stuff on different people's computers. So this helps with sync -- I mean, if I'm using this as a team collaboratively, like through your hub... I'm not sure if there's a separ... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** We don't currently, but it's something I'm really actively thinking about. We find a lot of people right now just have like a dependency step that does its best to set up the dependencies that you might need... But obviously, like you say, someone else might have a completely different local system ... |
\[16:07\] The only approach I can think of so far is having a container integration. So we have the concept of contextual blocks, which you would use for specifying that something needs to run over SSH... I'm currently thinking of doing something similar for containers, where I can say "This should run in my local deve... |
**Jerod Santo:** Amen. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** But I'm also not sure there's actually anything better, so... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. It turns out maybe Linux is the answer in that case. I mean, I've been on a Mac for a very long time, and I've had this exact complaint for a very long time, and it doesn't seem to be getting resolved at any point... And so everyone else is like "Well, we just use Linux for dev." It's like "Well... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Especially recently, I've been more and more tempted. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. As has a lot of people. I think the luster and the excitement around Apple's products and ecosystem has just kind of like tarnished a little bit. I used to be very excited -- and maybe it's just like "Well, they haven't really changed much." Even the iPhone events, and stuff like that... I used t... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah, I didn't even know what changed for a few days. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's like "It's another new phone. Maybe I'll get it because it's been three years, but my current phone still works." Although they just released some MacBook pros, and so maybe I'll go look at those and change my mind, but... Yeah, it's definitely -- maybe that just shows age, and exposure. Maybe not... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. I actually found the new Asahi - however you say it, the Linux on macOS - I have another Mac that's running that, and it's incredibly good. |
**Jerod Santo:** Is it? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** A lot of my experience was like running Arch on a MacBook in 2015, and that was dramatic. Whereas you install this and it just works, which was really cool. I recommend it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, that is super-cool. That is super-cool. We tried to do a show on the Asahi Linux, and those folks are hard to get a hold of. They don't like to come on podcasts. If you know anybody, and you can put in a word... Because it is a fascinating technology. But they're a shy bunch, that's for sure. Wha... |
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