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So we are hardcore tool builders, editor people, for sure. And yeah, as this is all -- I mean, just looking at and admiring, I think I did a good job on it. It was a long time ago that I wrote the code that integrated with all the API endpoints, and we've had all kinds of infrastructure in place for experimenting and p... |
So what I'm excited about is like, okay, having done it the hard way, owning the underlying tech, what can we do with that? How do we build the future of software development? How do we build for the present moment in technology of what people are wanting, and what the possibilities are. And I think the exciting thing ... |
You can say you're an AI code editor, but if you're kind of adapting a code editor that was developed for the pre-AI era by a much larger, different team, at a different company, my bet is that over time that may hamstring you. And so hopefully going forward, we'll have the opportunity to leverage our deep technical un... |
**Jerod Santo:** It has to feel good, like you said earlier, to be able to use your primitives that you've built up as you add this major new functionality, of like building on top of those things. Let me ask you a similar question, but a different one. So Adam mentions Cursor, I'll mention Windsurf, which - honestly, ... |
**Nathan Sobo:** Right, right. |
**Jerod Santo:** So they rebranded at some point. I missed the boat on that. In talks to be bought by OpenAI. |
**Nathan Sobo:** I heard this rumor. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yes. This is not yet announced... The deal is not finalized yet, and could change. So they're in negotiations. This is according to NBC News. "OpenAI advanced talks to acquire Windsurf for approximately $3 billion." So my question is "Would you take that deal?" |
**Nathan Sobo:** I don't think it's responsible for me to answer that question right now. \[laughter\] It's crazy. That's definitely crazy. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's a lot of money. |
**Nathan Sobo:** \[35:44\] I mean, to me, that deal is a sign that we're onto something. I'll put it that way. That the actual technology that connects this revolutionary LLM technology to the end user, that covers the last mile, that puts the developer at the center of that experience is incredibly valuable. I've alwa... |
I was envisioning -- my version of a multi-agent system that I was dreaming of before I understood the power of LLMs, when we were first starting Zed, was this notion of like mob coding where you have all these live branches, and people are off on their own live branch, and you're kind of pulling their changes in dynam... |
**Jerod Santo:** The people are there, right. Yeah, the agents are there and waiting to do things for you. |
**Nathan Sobo:** Yeah. So I'm excited to play that forward, I guess, further even from where we're at now. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, 100%. I think nobody really knows where that's going to take us, or how that's going to actually manifest. I think we do know that it's going to be, at least in the short and medium term, very expensive in terms of compute, to have me plus 50 agents doing stuff all the time. |
**Nathan Sobo:** Well, especially if they're not doing the right thing, right? |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Yeah, exactly. |
**Nathan Sobo:** So coordinating that well to me seems incredibly valuable, you know? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, 100%. |
**Nathan Sobo:** And so in a world where you can kind of open a pull request using a tool that was essentially designed for like the kernel mailing list, emailing each other patches, when your colleague just pushed a pull request and like they went home for the day, it's fine that you're kind of doing that in a web for... |
And I've always been excited about... It's kind of a self-serving narrative for me, or maybe I'm drunk on my own wine here or whatever, but I'm excited about the prospect of leveling up how we manage change in the software world. And I think there's a compelling impetus to do so now. |
**Jerod Santo:** Do you think tools like Git become less relevant in a world like that? |
**Nathan Sobo:** I mean, I think Git is here for a very, very, very long time. So this is not to disparage Git. And -- I don't know, I worked at GitHub. I love Git. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Nathan Sobo:** So again, there's so many things tied to Git, and so many ways in which Git is deeply embedded in what we're doing... |
But I think there's an opportunity to augment Git, I think, with a finer-grained understanding of what's going on, finer-grained tools. To me, that's the role of the editor. It's more this vertically-integrated... Or something that drops out of the editor to become more universal over time, or whatever. But the idea of... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, interesting. |
**Break**: \[39:51\] |
**Jerod Santo:** So last year when we talked I think where the AI stuff in Zed stood was you had this little sidebar that would come out, and you could plug OpenAI API into it, and maybe like a couple other models. I don't recall exactly. I know that after our call you helped me debug mine, because I couldn't get my AP... |
**Nathan Sobo:** It was early. |
**Jerod Santo:** You were baking it still. Yeah, it was very early. It worked. Once the founder of the editor helped me, it worked. |
**Nathan Sobo:** \[laughs\] |
**Jerod Santo:** So first-class support. But it was very much like "Here's maybe my file", or maybe even no context; just chatting with it in the right-hand sidebar. And talking about code with your agent. |
**Nathan Sobo:** Yeah, the premise was like strap a text editor to an LLM and hit go, you know? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yes. And that was cool because it was configurable, and it's continuing to get more configurable. I like how fast you guys pump out when there's a new model that comes out, whether it's open or proprietary... Basically it's there, and you just select it from the dropdown, as long as you have your key i... |
**Nathan Sobo:** Right. And that's a big part of our philosophy, honestly, is empower the developer. If the developer wants to use Ollama, or some other thing again... Again, that's a process that I'm not necessarily like -- again, am I bending over backwards to go cover the last 2% of the market for you, or whatever? ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. So I just was saying, I appreciate that you're like that, because as a person who likes choice, it's great to just not have to change my editor when I want to try a new model; just change the model and continue to have the experience that I already appreciated. But I would like you to explain to ... |
**Nathan Sobo:** Yeah. I'm very immersed in the now, so let's start there. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Nathan Sobo:** I mean, first, just to talk about what we had... I mean, what we had was sort of - I needed to explore the technology, and needed a good developer tool for doing that. And so that's very much what shaped the old experience, of just like "I'm editing prompts and manipulating what the input is to this th... |
And so what we're really offering now is - yeah, more of that full agentic experience, where first and foremost the panels optimize for sort of readability and clarity of that conversation as sort of a conversation with a goal; the goal of understanding and/or editing code. Whereas in the other world, it was very open-... |
\[48:11\] And again, I think -- who knows, maybe great minds think alike... You know, maybe some other products I've seen some stuff like this, but a Zed multi-buffer is a different kind of experience, I think, than just throwing a bunch of editors together. We really model that in the product as a single coherent virt... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I've noticed you've reused it in the Git stuff, whereas at first it was only in like search results when I would see it and use it... And at first, I was somewhat put off by it, if you recall our last call, because as a Sublime Text user, it was just a little bit different than what I was used to... |
**Nathan Sobo:** Yeah. So in the Git world we have a single multi-buffer, which has excerpts of every location in your project that has changes. And then the Git panel, which has your sort of file-level status, actually acts as almost like a table of contents for that multi-buffer, scrolling you through it to distinct ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Mm-hm. Cool. |
**Nathan Sobo:** Yeah, and so like you said, we use them in the search results, we use them in diagnostics, for example... And I think there's cool opportunities there for some batch level fixing of diagnostics, which would have made my life in December a little less miserable... But of course, there's also this review... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Nathan Sobo:** This idea of as you're kind of going back and forth with an agent, and it's reading files, and proposing edits, and doing its thing, it's building up this multi-buffer for you to like review those changes. And you can obviously put your cursor in that multi-buffer, and we do a great job, whether you're... |
But then the thought is "Okay, maybe you make a tweak to what the LLM did, and then accept it", or whatever. Right now, the first version of it, we're like just hiding it when you're done. Like "Okay, you're done." But I have this idea of "What if we keep it there?" and then there's this secondary step to dismiss. Then... |
\[52:21\] But then in Vietnam there was this time where I guess there were some gun battles and some missile battles. Missiles weren't yet that reliable, or whatever. And so I think -- yeah, AI is kind of the missiles. You've got this agentic process that you kick off, go get a coffee or whatever... Then you come in, y... |
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