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**Jerod Santo:** But they don't want source necessarily, they want tools. Like, for training them they need source, but for their actual building, they need tools more than source. So I don't think we can answer this question in the next three to five minutes, let alone the next three to five years. I feel like this is... |
**Thorsten Ball:** Can I make an optimistic prediction? |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure, please do. |
**Thorsten Ball:** \[01:49:00.05\] I think the value of what's creative and truly human and tasteful, and based on experiences, unique experiences - I think the value of that will rise. Like, I think if there's one thing that only you, only you in that moment, with that combination of this model and that model, in this... |
**Jerod Santo:** I think that's a good note to end on, don't you think, Adam? I mean... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I think so. I think the only thing I would add to really this conversation is just that it seems like perspective is in order... Because when you're closer to the problem, the specifics matter more. Like, for example, future humans may say "Do you remember when human validation was based upon ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well said. Thorsten, thanks so much for coming over to our podcast, and sharing... I know you've been on Go Time a few times, we've known you and known of you, especially back when you were writing those books about compilers and stuff, but... We haven't had you on the Changelog, so this was a joy. I'm... |
**Thorsten Ball:** Thank you for having me. And small anecdote is, I told my wife, before we started recording, "I'm gonna go record this podcast." And she's like "What podcast is it?" And I said, "It's the first podcast I've ever been on in 2016." Back then Go Time... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, totally. Yup. That's awesome. Always happy to hear origin stories that include us. We've been around a while, so we have a few of those. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I remember that podcast, man. That was a long time ago. |
**Jerod Santo:** It was a long time ago. |
**Thorsten Ball:** Yeah. It's nice. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's almost a decade, so... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's good to be friends still yet all these years, you know? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yup, it's pretty cool. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's what it's all about, man. Right there. |
**Jerod Santo:** Certainly not the last time. We'll have you back. We appreciate the conversations. Really enjoyable. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Very much. |
**Jerod Santo:** Thank you. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Thank you, Thorsten. |
• Discussion of the recent AWS outage and its impact on users |
• Critique of the lack of empathy shown by AWS in handling the outage |
• Mention of Corey Quinn's article suggesting that the outage was due to "all the smart people leaving" |
• Discussion of the role of older engineers in building systems that fail |
• Critique of the idea that AI or SREs are to blame for the outage |
• Reflection on the inevitability of outages and the importance of empathy and humility in responding to them |
• Psychoanalyzing the public response to the outage, including the idea that AWS is now seen as the "Darth Vader" of cloud services |
• Appreciation for AWS's transparency about its goals and priorities |
• First generation of cloud computing and root cause analysis |
• Lack of empathy for those who built systems during the early days of cloud computing |
• Shifting perspective on technology landscape and expectations for outages |
• AWS outage and "Mortal Kombat" mentality |
• Cloud exodus and repatriation to on-premises data centers |
• Rise of AI and its impact on data center design and technology |
• Increased focus on bare metal compute, high-performance networks, and low-latency infrastructure |
• Growing trend of people wanting control back over their technology and infrastructure |
• Impact of automation and AI on IT professionals and their roles |
• Complexity and cost issues with using AWS and other cloud services |
• Emergence of new capabilities and technologies, such as AI and high-performance compute |
• Potential for a new wave of innovation and a shift in the way work is done |
• Discussion of the "cloud repatriation" trend, where companies may choose to move back to on-premises infrastructure |
• Idea that companies will invent new ways of working, rather than simply reverting to old methods |
• Role of practitioners and innovators in driving change and creating new technologies and systems |
• Discussion of the potential for new tooling and abstraction to simplify complex tasks |
• Dismissal of Docker in favor of zones |
• Discussion of the inevitability of Docker's embedment in ops technology |
• Future innovation in the tech industry |
• Speculation on the emergence of new companies that could potentially disrupt the industry |
• Analysis of the AI bubble and its potential implications |
• Discussion of the central premise of a convincing presentation arguing that there is no AI bubble |
• Debate on the circular nature of AI industry investments and deals |
• Discussion of the potential for a correction in the market related to Nvidia and the "magnificent seven" organizations |
• Skepticism about the argument that a correction in the market would indicate a bubble |
• Debate about the demand for AI data centers and whether they will be over-provisioned |
• Criticism of people who dismiss AI as "stupid" and "overhyped" |
• Discussion of the potential risks of AI, including agentic misalignment and the emergence of self-preservation instincts in LLMs |
• Debate about whether AI will replace human jobs, with the consensus being that it will create new opportunities for developers and solve problems in new ways |
• Discussion of the uncapped demand for software systems and the potential for new innovations and creations |
• The concept of using LLMs (Large Language Models) to drive agent loops and automate tasks in data centers |
• The potential for AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) and its implications |
• Criticism of the current hype around AGI and the promises being made by companies |
• The idea that what people are actually buying is access to LLMs, not true AGI |
• The benefits of using LLMs in systems such as System Initiative to automate tasks and troubleshoot issues |
• The comparison of the current AI landscape to the invention of the car, suggesting that it will be a significant and transformative change. |
• The rapid advancement of technology and its potential impact on society |
• The limitations and potential risks of relying on Large Language Models (LLMs) |
• The shift from trying to use LLMs as a general-purpose solution to designing systems that play to their strengths |
• The importance of designing APIs and interfaces that work with LLMs, rather than trying to force them into traditional software design patterns |
• The potential for a paradigm shift in how people think about and interact with complex systems, including the role of AI in augmenting human capabilities. |
• Adam Jacob discusses his experience with PTSD and how it relates to his work on a new project |
• He talks about the challenges of introducing a new, AI-powered approach to infrastructure management, and how it's met with resistance from some industry professionals |
• Adam mentions the importance of humility and empathy in explaining the benefits of his technology to others |
• He shares an example of a policy engine he built using MCP server and Markdown, which he claims was created in just three hours |
• A listener, Don McKinnon, is mentioned as a fan of Adam's and having been a guest on the show |
• The conversation shifts to the topic of AI-generated code and the idea of "AI slop" |
• The importance of documentation and code generation |
• Challenges and benefits of generating code in a timely manner |
• The role of AI in code review and engineering practices |
• The utilization of AI in large codebases, such as the System Initiative codebase |
• The transition from relying on AI to provide generic solutions to providing specific, tailored solutions |
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