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And I think for us, it goes back to the experience, right? So if you try to build a wrapper over Aurora, then you're a wrapper over Aurora, and you have to deal with their vagaries. And Aurora is not even Postgres-Postgres. It's Postgres-compatible, but there will be stuff in your function code or your triggers that ju... |
And so I think the other thing that we've been lucky about is Heroku has made our job easier. It has helped drive people into our arms. And that was the other thing that happened when they killed their free tier back in 2022... That was when a lot of people first discovered Render. And it was not just that our free tie... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right place, right time... I think it's prudent for you to showcase that your demeanor might be -- or your point might be "We're the better new Heroku." |
**Anurag Goel:** \[01:42:11.13\] Well, but we're not. That's the other thing. Because I don't think about Render as being a better Heroku, or even a better AWS. I think when you think about a company as like a better X, then it constrains the possibilities of what's possible. Only back in the day, Stripe benefited from... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For sure. |
**Anurag Goel:** And from the mistakes of everyone else. So I think in some ways the story is similar. But I think with us, people come to us -- people who have used Heroku before and who we know are using Heroku look at us and they want details on how Render might be better. And so maybe that's what we were trying her... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Preach, yeah. |
**Anurag Goel:** In fact, there are people who've gone back to bare metal, as we all know... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We all know that, yeah. We didn't talk about that, but yes, for sure. |
**Anurag Goel:** Exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Anti-cloud. |
**Anurag Goel:** Yeah, there's this whole thing. I mean, it's a bit -- I think DHH does a great job marketing it. It's not clear to me if the big move is happening, because the clouds keep making more money every quarter. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, I think just what you said before, which is there's room for that, too. |
**Anurag Goel:** Yeah, absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's room for bare metal, and there's room for those who are like "You know what, it's not so much anti-cloud, it's more like you're a build versus buy. We could, so we should." Right? You were able to, you had the talent, you had the control, it benefited you to have the control, so you did. Sam... |
**Anurag Goel:** Yes, he's incredibly smart. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. And so I think just the same, there's room for those who are like "You know what? I can put this server rack in co-location, and we can do this, and all this different stuff..." And that might serve them and their purpose for then, and for whatever. But I think you're building for a different... |
**Anurag Goel:** Yeah. And we use -- behind the scenes, we use both AWS and GCP. And that doesn't mean that that is what we're always going to use. In fact, again, this year, that might change. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:46:07.20\] Is that right? Some bare metal? |
**Anurag Goel:** So we're not going to get rid of AWS or GCP, and we're not going to ask customers who are on AWS or GCP to move. In fact, we'll still continue to add people there. But I think now it's incumbent on us as a business to also look at lower cost compute, whether that's bare metal, or some dedicated hosting... |
So I think we need to explore our options, because it's not clear to me that AWS is the best long term partner for us. And I do think that AWS is a better partner than GCP, though. And we can talk about that some other time. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, I think the way to get there is really "What do application developers want?" |
**Anurag Goel:** Yes, that is the mantra. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right? If they want a diversity of choice - well, then you're going to offer them a diversity of choice. If they want a diversity of choice because of cost - well, then you're going to offer a diversity of choice because of cost. |
**Anurag Goel:** Exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And if that doesn't make sense, then you won't do it. Because if your mission is to serve app developers, then you're going to figure out what the 80% of the 100% of the market that's an app developer wants... And Render is, I assume, attempting to solve for 80% of the challenge that app developers ... |
**Anurag Goel:** Yeah. And I think people on Render will always -- they should always be able to use specialized compute or specialized services on other cloud providers, right? And so we actually -- if you have some compute running on AWS, then Render can set a private link from Render to AWS, so you can always connec... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm excited for you. I'm excited that we've got you on the show, so we can check that box... I'm excited that potentially this could become the new -- if you want to learn about Anurag and what Render is doing in the next year or so, this could be a new link for you to share wi... |
**Anurag Goel:** Oh, for sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What else is left? What else can we share in terms of anything we haven't covered, that you want to? |
**Anurag Goel:** No, I think this was pretty far-ranging. I enjoyed the conversation. There was a lot of switching between topics and things, but that's what a conversation is. It's not a straight line. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We'll get you back on. We'll make you a staple. Once a year, let's say. Something like that. Let's get you back on. |
**Anurag Goel:** I would love that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm a fan of what you've done, I'm a fan of innovating for developers, and I think if that's what you're doing, which I think you are, I'm happy you're doing that. And stoked. |
**Anurag Goel:** Thank you. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Stoked for Render. |
**Anurag Goel:** Thank you, Adam. I really appreciate it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Alright, Anurag. Thank you. |
• Drew Wilson's last appearance on the podcast was 10+ years ago |
• Drew built and sold a company, which was a "dream come true" |
• Drew is a busy person who has been focused on family and other projects |
• Drew has a collection of old Apple computers, including a Macintosh Portable and an Apple II |
• The Macintosh Portable is a rare and historic computer that still works |
• Discussion of old Apple computers, specifically the Macintosh Classic and the Macintosh Portable |
• Comparison of the Macintosh Classic with a 2013 Mac Pro, noting their similar size and design |
• Reference to Steve Jobs coining the term "laptop" |
• Critique of cryptocurrency, with a prediction that it will be used primarily for collectibles and scams |
• Discussion of the limitations and potential drawbacks of decentralized systems |
• Expression of the idea that crypto will only be adopted by the wealthy |
• Reflection on the changing role of technology and the shift from a hobby to a regular job |
• Hard belief that product managers who lack technical skills are "useless in tech" |
• Criticism of product managers who lack technical skills and understanding of product development |
• Discussion of the consequences of hiring unqualified product managers, including failed projects and large layoffs |
• Comparison of the tech industry standard of product managers being mini-CEOs with other companies that suffer from similar issues |
• Drew Wilson's personal history and background in design, engineering, and entrepreneurship |
• Critique of product managers who rely on "intuition" rather than technical expertise to make decisions |
• Discussion of the value of self-taught skills and hands-on experience in the tech industry |
• Drew Wilson's background and experience with Photoshop |
• His experience starting a bank and learning about banking from scratch |
• The regulatory challenges in the banking industry, including government regulations and approval processes |
• The difficulty in making money in banking due to regulations and the need for a large customer base |
• The contrast between the US and UK banking industries, with the US having stricter regulations and the UK allowing easier entry for fintech companies |
• Drew Wilson's experience selling his company Plasso to GoDaddy and receiving a significant amount of money |
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