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**Danielle Rath:** I'm glad you asked about that, because I have in my notebook here five different research papers that I was looking at before this, that I wanted to talk about... But the one that's most applicable, and I think the strongest one in terms of evidence - are you familiar with POMS, the profile of mood s... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. |
**Danielle Rath:** \[01:16:15.17\] Yeah. So the paper that I love the most, and the paper that I'm gonna refer to now, is a systematic review that was done in 2017, that looked at the safety of caffeine across all ages and all demographics. It's a very, very comprehensive study; it's like 36 pages. But one of the thing... |
They've found that caffeine only increases your anxiety when you have larger doses than your one day's amount. There were six different studies that looked at whether or not caffeine gave people more anxiety, and the only studies that did find that association were the studies that used caffeine in large doses. All the... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So you're talking large doses, like over 200-250 milligrams? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. For sure, when you get over 400. But if you go over 200-250, then yes, there's a greater risk. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Even in a single dose too, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Mireille was sad to hear that I sold my espresso machine. She's like why did you do that? \[laughter\] Well, I was my own scientist, and I determined that when I drink espresso, when I make even an Americano, which is generally just a shot or a double-shot of espresso, plus the rest is water essenti... |
**Danielle Rath:** And a regular cup of coffee - you'd be fine. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. Like, if I'd do a French press, or I'd do pour-overs, aeropress - I've got a couple of different brew methods that I'd prefer. Espresso was fun. My son would help me make the coffee. He loved to tamp it with me. We would grind the beans... It was a fun thing we did in the morning, so he would... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So with that, again, going back to our Slack community, somebody else commented - and I wonder if you could shed some light on this, Danielle - relative to... They said sometimes they have an espresso and it wakes them up, but other times they have an espresso and it just puts them to sleep. |
**Danielle Rath:** That's tricky... So my gut instinct in that scenario would be that they're either fatigue level five in those situations, and maybe the espresso isn't working because they're already mentally exhausted, or physically exhausted, so the caffeine isn't capable of waking you up physically. And even the p... |
But I've also met people that have cups of coffee right before they go to bed, and they're fine. Usually, those people have a consistent effect. It's not - it affects them good one way, and it affects them a different way on a different day. So usually it's consistent. So my gut instinct would be that if you are gettin... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** \[01:20:07.08\] So with that then too, we also asked about relative to Covid, because lots of things have changed for people with the Covid lifestyle... So the coffee intake increasing during Covid, which - I don't know, I might think about it being relative to a number of different things, li... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, I have seen this across all different industries, from first-responders that are being shipped cases of caffeine products to their hospital, as well as the parents that now have to manage a job, and their child, and their pet, or whatever else they were managing before... So caffeine intake has ... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So that was the other thing... I was surprised, because -- I think most of us know that there's caffeine in chocolate, but there's other foods that have caffeine in it as well, and that according to what I've found, the FDA (here in the U.S.) they don't actually have to label it unless they're... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So to some degree you can't wholly know with some of the foods, but can you tell our listeners - what other common foods that people eat might have caffeine in it? |
**Danielle Rath:** Honestly, unless it's a food that has added caffeine, you don't have to worry about any other foods other than chocolate. I think dark chocolate and aspirin are the most common objects that people don't think about as caffeinated, that do have caffeine in them. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** How much caffeine is typically in Aspirin? Like Excedrin, Tylenol... |
**Danielle Rath:** I think it's 45 milligrams... I would recommend double-checking this on Caffeine Informer. Again, this is like my bible; Caffeine Informer has all the answers. But yeah, it's not small. It's like 45 milligrams in Excedrin Max, \[unintelligible 01:22:57.06\] And then with chocolate, I think one full d... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So if you're eating one of those a day, and three coffees(ish), check yourself... Right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Otherwise - maybe cool. |
**Danielle Rath:** But there's more and more food now that comes out with added caffeine. There's a cookie that I like, a protein cookie from Beast Cookie Company, that has 160 mg. So a cup of coffee and a half; one and a half cups of coffee into this cookie. But it's this large protein cookie, with 10 grams of protein... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And what's driving the trend? Is productivity driving the trend, or is it -- you say consumers create the habits, because you mentioned before, what you desire to put in in terms of caffeine wasn't what the consumer wanted, so... Somebody's wanting a cookie that makes them more alert. |
**Danielle Rath:** \[01:24:18.14\] People want caffeine, they want alternatives to the scary, stereotypical energy drink... So other product developers are saying "Hey, what if I could give you this healthy cereal bar with your cup of coffee's worth of caffeine in here?" |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Then you can just drink some water and have this cookie that's mostly healthy \[unintelligible 01:24:36.24\] versus the cup of coffee. So it's just changed. It's moving things around a bit. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I like that. That's good though. I think we need alternatives, because not everybody wants the cup of coffee. As you said before, you drank energy drinks; that was your saving grace. Rather than actual coffee. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And that's what you're gonna see other people do, like "I would prefer to eat a bar, or eat a cookie, or something like that, versus drink this nasty drink... Or go through this five-minute process to make French press at home. I don't want that." They want alternatives. |
**Danielle Rath:** So Mireille, going back to your point - this is what I'm seeing a huge spike in because of Covid; all of these companies that were kind of unknown before are like "Hey, look at us, we've donated all these coffees, or all these chocolates, or all these cookies with caffeine to these hospitals", and th... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. And I think that's so hard, because I know just when we're tired too we make different decisions than when we're alert. |
**Danielle Rath:** Absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What was the acronym you mentioned before, Mireille, about "Are you hungry, tired...?" |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** HALT. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** HALT, yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Hungry, angry, lonely or tired. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I've gotta memorize it. I've systematically improved my life because of HALT. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah, but it's really getting at energy... Recognizing that energy is always in flux. Emotions are energy. I think of ways in which people are taxed emotionally feels more like when you wake up the next day, you feel like you were hit by a Mack truck, except you don't remember it... Right? But... |
We talk so often with our listeners about the value of "Name it to tame it", and that building this repertoire of vocabulary helps us to navigate our lives differently... So hopefully even in this people can recognize and have different words around their state of energy, to then make different choices in that regard. |
**Danielle Rath:** Absolutely. I mean, if you take that three seconds to assess "Alright, I'm at fatigue level 3. Maybe I should pause before I say things out loud, because I'm gonna say something I regret. I'm more likely to say something I regret right now, because I know I'm at fatigue level 3." |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** \[01:27:09.07\] Sure. I think that in general people are getting there faster because of the load just with multiple demands, and the rate of change. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** There is so much accommodating, and it's like Garmin, "Recalculating... Recalculating..." And that's gonna deplete our energy stores. So if you know that, then you can be like "Okay, I literally just need to take a nap for 15 minutes. Or let me go move a little bit, do some walking." |
I find it somewhat humorous in looking at my stats too, my movement level or walking that I used to do in months previous... And while I would like to improve that, life right now is not facilitating that in the way that I want. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yeah. |
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