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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002117 | [S1] For example, Marx, who was very interested in beverage theory, not only of management, but also of, um, let's say, computation and computational machinery, et cetera, et cetera, nevertheless, didn't know Alan Turing and the use of Alan Turing's theorem by, um, by cognitivism, that is for me, comportmentalism, and that is, uh, the real metaphysics, what I call the metaphysics of neoliberalism. I say- [S2] Speak. [S1] ... metaphysics. | 29.92 | 3.050336 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002117.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002118 | [S1] I see a metaphysical. [S2] Behaviorism, yeah. Behaviorism, yeah. [S1] Sorry? [S2] I said, uh, comportmentalism. I think you mean behaviorism. [S1] Yes, yes, behaviorism. Yes, excuse me. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, yes. And it was not possible for, for Marx to anticipate all these questions, you know? So we, the problem is not to, to, to open a trial against Marx, not at all. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] I'm not a Marxist, but I am a Marxian. I'm a reader of Marx. | 29.4 | 2.956782 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002118.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002119 | [S1] And such work is extremely interesting. It, it's necessary in such a work to revisit also Deleuze and his critique of the universal, the question of singularity. That was also the first question of Marx. When Marx young was writing his book on, um, Hegel's theory of right, uh, you know, the critique of Hegelian right. [S2] Mm-hmm, yeah. [S1] I don't remember, uh, philosophy, do, um, philosophy of right. [S2] Philosophy of right, yeah, yeah. | 28.92 | 3.100811 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002119.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002120 | [S1] about, uh, you know, this forms of global cooperation, um, that could be necessary, uh, to address the issues, uh, connected to the pandemic. Um, what, what is, is your take? I don't, I don't know if you're familiar with these opinions given by G. Jack Gragenbaum. [S2] Oh, yeah, yeah. [S1] What, what is your opinion on those and, and what's your opinion of, about COVID-19? | 21.92 | 3.455941 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002120.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002121 | [S1] First, about Agamben's, uh, discourse, I think it didn't address the question of the pandemic at all. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] He only tried to repeat and confirm his obsessive concepts, as usual. And, uh, it's, it's, uh, | 18.48 | 3.023467 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002121.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002122 | [S1] Exactly opposite, uh, uh, opposed to this position you have, for example, Jean-Pierre Dupuy, who is a specialist of statistics, et cetera, et cetera. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] He shows that it's impossible to say that because it is an exponential, uh, uh, uh, evolution, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I will not, uh, try to decide between the two positions. I believe that it's impossible to decide. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Because we are confronted to what? | 26.6 | 3.067749 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002122.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002123 | [S1] What he calls post-modern, uh, for example, um, end of the grand narratives- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... is a kind of renunciation, uh, about, um, a defense of knowledge against its instrumentalization by economy, for example. [S2] Okay. Now- [S1] I wanna- [S2] I wanna move- [S1] I wanna move- | 22.72 | 3.164391 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002123.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002124 | [S1] ... state. And he described what is exactly happening with Twitter and Trump. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] He said everybody will be linked into a net, uh, with, uh, an automatic and computational equipment, et cetera, et cetera. And this will produce what he calls a new kind of fascist state. | 21 | 2.945798 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002124.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002125 | [S1] 20 years later, he used the, this organization of, uh, scientific organization of, of labor as it was developed, uh, by, by, um, um, uh, Taylor. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And used it for, for relaunching the competition between USSR and the West. So it is the same with cybernetics. But the real question is, is that cybernetics needs, uh, a critic. | 28.12 | 2.986075 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002125.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002126 | [S1] So you talk about the, um, the addressal of, uh, or the lack of addressal of cybernetics by, uh, left-wing thinkers in France, for example. Um, but I, I do think it's interesting to note that, um, you know, your, uh, Technics in Time arrives, I believe it's first published in France, when is it, '91, or what year, '88, or what year is that, Technics in Time, the first volume? [S2] The third volume. [S1] Yeah. [S2] The third volume. | 23.44 | 3.479735 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002126.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002127 | [S1] Yeah. [S2] It was 1994. [S1] 1994. Okay. Pardon me. I, I confused the date there. But this is, in any case, you know, I think that in the English world, uh, that resistance, uh, to taking on, um, these more, uh, materialist subjects, if you will, uh, by, uh, you know, left-wing theorists or, or post-structurally influenced theorists, uh, actually continues longer. So I think you, in a French context, you, your work, for example, already signals a kind of shift. | 28.68 | 3.460589 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002127.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002128 | [S1] ... Discourse on, on the, let's call that modernity or hyper-modernity of technology, et cetera, et cetera, and that it is a, it is a ... So, uh, it happens. These times. This time, I don't know. [S2] Okay, well hopefully- [S1] I have no problem with it. | 19.32 | 3.353738 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002128.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002129 | [S1] Facebook is very bad and we must not at all use Facebook, no, and we must not at all use Amazon. We must completely redefine what is technology, what is cybernetics, what is computer science, and to re, uh, articulate it with a social, uh, view. So, um, for that we need to completely, uh, revisit, for example, the, the so-called, uh, Turing theorem and the so-called- [S2] Okay. [S1] ... Turing machines. | 29.16 | 3.240068 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002129.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002130 | [S1] Uh, a computer is not at all a turing machine. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And th- the one who said that was turing himself. Because why is it, isn't it, uh, a turing machine? Because a turing machine is a theorem, and it is purely abstract. It's not concrete. And, and Simonnot said, "What is a concrete machine?" You know? And, and, and it is abstract. Why? Because the memory is infinite. And if you know philosophy, you know that such a machine is God. | 28.64 | 3.203325 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002130.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002131 | [S1] ... for Marx concerning Babbage. He, he, he talked about Babbage of course as a thinker of management, but he talked about, uh, of, on, uh, about Babbage also as a thinker of computation and, and of, and of machines, of automation. So, uh, we have to revisit all of these questions. [S2] And, um, is it- [S1] Yes, I am, I, I, | 28.32 | 2.977783 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002131.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002132 | [S1] I, I talked about emergency, uh, state of emergency. Yes, in such an acceleration, it is also the acceleration of the destruction of the, of the, of the, of the biosphere by the Anthropocene era. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] So we have also to think how to use speed and to practice speed. For that, we must reread also Paul Virilio. I'm writing a book about, uh, the question of speed between Virilio and Derrida at the moment. And, uh, and we have to | 29.88 | 3.211327 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002132.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002133 | [S1] Uh, starts the process of living individuation, like, uh, for example, it is described by Gilbert Simondon- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... at the beginning of his work, and how appears the process of psychic and collective individuation- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... that appears with technology. | 17.36 | 2.89951 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002133.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002134 | [S1] Coming from the, from Laetate, from the oblivion, you know. [S2] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [S1] Uh, today, I don't, I believe that Heidegger is right when he say that it is a very important moment in the philosophy of Plato, but he is wrong when he says that it is simply the, | 20.92 | 3.042678 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002134.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002135 | [S1] This is what I call now the ex-organogenesis of noises. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And the previous question concerning cybernetics, for example, is this question. Today, I believe that the future is in a new interpretation of cybernetics. It was for a time probably a hesitation for Heidegger. | 20.24 | 3.022677 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002135.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002136 | [S1] Johnson is right. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] And today, I, I agree with him about this question of the, the coup. Uh, but, uh, uh, nevertheless, I would say I'm not at all a humanist. Uh, I never, I was never a humanist. | 17.48 | 3.152398 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002136.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002137 | [S1] But the question today is to have, uh, what, uh, what I call ex- exosomatic point of view on what is noises and also what is a function of noises. I use this, use this term function in the sense of Whitehead, uh, in the function of reason, uh, where Whitehead says, exactly like George Canguilin- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... that, um, reason is a, a function for life. | 28.44 | 3.119094 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002137.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002139 | [S1] In, um, I don't remember the title of the dialogue, but it is a very famous one. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Uh, now, the question is how to articulate the analytic faculty of the understanding and the synthetic faculty of reason. | 14.24 | 3.243398 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002139.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002140 | [S1] For that, we have to rethink completely, uh, the social networks, the, the limits of calculation, for example. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Myself, I am, I try to develop new kinds of such, uh, social networks or digital networks. | 17.16 | 3.071729 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002140.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002141 | [S1] Inhabitants, but we also try to do that with, uh, doctors and, uh, for example, how to use data medicine for analyzing a diagnosis of, for example, uh, cardiology. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] With many, many data from everywhere in the world for challenging a community of doctors and they are deciding. It's not the algorithm which decides. And this is also the question of, of COVID-19. | 27.24 | 3.044262 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002141.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002142 | [S1] You know, there is a, an incredible scandal with the, the Lancet gate about this modelization of the chloroquine, uh, uh, uh, inquiry. Uh, I don't remember how you, you, to call that. [S2] Yeah. [S1] The, the analysis of the real efficiency of such medication. And you know that it was producing a scandal. Why? | 26.92 | 3.078339 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002142.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002143 | [S1] There are many, there are many fields in which, uh, such energies are activated. Now, myself, I, I work mainly on the question of generations. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And, um, | 19.84 | 3.035534 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002143.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002144 | [S1] ... call the contributory research because we are not explaining them how to do that. We don't know. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Uh, and they don't know. But we work by using, um, theories and practices of, uh, Francois Tosquelles, the psychiatric, uh, uh, of course, Donald Winnicott, and also many Greenland-based | 25.72 | 3.187178 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002144.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002145 | [S1] ... on his, um, teddy bear, on his transitional object, and- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... mother, et cetera, et cetera. And so, the question is not addiction is bad. Addiction is a stage in the construction of an ener- energetic process that is the construction of the therapic apparatus of the, of the baby. Uh, I say that because I believe that, uh, what was a characteristic of 20th century, uh, the very different | 29.72 | 2.940575 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002145.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002146 | [S1] In the, the book, the go, the, the first book of the Bible. But in the Gospel, it, it is exactly the same. At the beginning of the Gospel, you have also the generation of Jesus Christ, etc., etc. It is a question of generations. The, the, the God being the un- ungendered. Is it correct? Un- un- un- un- gendered? Yeah. [S2] Un- un- un, uh, generational. [S1] In- en- genre. [S2] Generational. Yeah. [S1] Not generated. In- in- en- genre, we say. [S2] Un- | 29.72 | 2.94735 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002146.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002147 | [S1] ... ungenerated. [S2] Okay. Yeah. [S1] Yeah. [S2] Ungenerated. Yeah. [S1] Okay. [S2] Ungenerated. And, uh, I think today, uh, the, the, the question of the relationship between generations becomes the real, uh, factor of transformation. And, um, | 18.08 | 2.918082 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002147.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002149 | [S1] Lyotard was a Marxist at the beginning. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] But the other people are, were not Marxist. Nevertheless, uh, they were completely coined by Marxism, by the de- the questions of Marxism. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Even Derrida. And, um, particular, it's, it's, it's clear, for example, if you read the book by Derrida about Althusser, | 24.56 | 2.979234 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002149.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002150 | [S1] And, uh, it's, um, an interview he gave to an American, uh, uh, scholar or journalist. I don't remember, but about- [S2] Yeah, yeah, that's a wonderful, wonderful interview. Yeah, very good, yeah. [S1] Yeah. And about his relationship with Althusser, et cetera. [S2] By the way, I, I talk about that interview in the, in the Jordan Peterson book that I co-wrote, uh, Myth in May. [S1] Oh, yeah. [S2] So if you're interested, you can look at that. I quote the interview and discuss it. [S1] Yeah. | 27.24 | 2.929846 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002150.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002151 | [S1] Oh, yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Um, I think it is, it is very symptomatic, this discourse of Derrida about Althusser. It was, um, the, the discussion, first, Derrida and Althusser were friends, very good friends. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Uh, they had a big respect, uh, for one another. And, uh, uh, even if Derrida was not at all a Marxist, he was extremely, um, | 29.44 | 3.014608 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002151.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002152 | [S1] Because what is said by Heidegger, for example, in Times and in, uh, in, uh, uh, Time and Being- [S2] Being and Time. [S1] Not, not being- [S2] Oh, Time and Being, pardon me. But still- [S1] In 1962- [S2] Sorry. Oh, okay. [S1] What is, what is said by Heidegger, he says, "The question is technology." | 23.32 | 2.919019 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002152.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002153 | [S1] And, for example, my good friend and marvelous friend who was Gerard Granell. [S2] Mm. [S1] He was a really a specialist of Heidegger. He, he translated Heidegger and told me one time, "You must not read this text of Heidegger. It's not interesting." So I think there are many, many misunderstandings that are, um, | 22.32 | 3.105141 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002153.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002154 | [S1] Also, repressions in the sense of psychoanalytic repression. And it, it's, it concerns not only, uh, Marx and technology, but also Freud. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Personally, I believe that Freud, uh, was completely changing his view in 1920. | 17.64 | 3.235973 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002154.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002155 | [S1] Um, okay. So, um, uh, I think we're, we're, time's up, uh, now. I hope that's okay for you, Bernard. You, have you, do you feel like you've said everything that you wanted to say? [S2] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [S1] Okay, very good. [S2] Maybe later I will think I should have said that, but it's too, it will be too late. [S1] Oh, you have it? [S2] No, it's, it's okay. | 17.84 | 3.304096 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002155.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002156 | [S1] Uh, some of the, uh, the, the approaches to philosophy that were later popularized in the English world, uh, were things he was already thinking about, uh, you know, uh, 15, 20 years earlier, uh, perhaps even earlier than that. Um, so, uh, thank you so much Bernard, uh, and, uh, thank you to, uh, Zero Books readers, uh, for tuning in, uh, and, um, uh, maybe, uh, at some date in the future we'll have another conversation. Thanks Bernard. [S2] Maybe, my pleasure. Thank you very much. [S1] See ya. | 29.24 | 3.263659 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_BV1J44y1r7gN_p1_m4-dialogue_1002156.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011122 | [S1] Yeah, I, I did actually used to enjoy coffee, but then I, I was in Hong Kong probably about 20 years ago, and what happened was that every time I had a coffee, I start to get really bad stomach cramps. [S2] Hmm. [S1] And it, like, lasts, and so when I got back from Hong Kong, I went to the doctors and he said, uh, it'll kind of clear itself up, sort of. And it did. Um, and then, uh, but I kinda just never got back into drinking coffee. But, um, | 29.2 | 3.378922 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011122.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011123 | [S1] ... and my favorite kinds of tea, and there's a, I don't know if you know this guy, Aoki Takamasa. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] He's a techno producer from Osaka. So he has some kind of family connection and they, they make this amazing green tea. It's, it's called Gyokuro, which is a- [S2] Oh, yeah. [S1] ... really, really nice quality. So basically I buy four bags of that off Aoki every year and it, uh- | 29.44 | 3.392422 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011123.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011124 | [S1] ... have a few cups of that and it's like the, the answer sort of miraculously presents itself. [S2] Interesting. [S1] To the end of your fingers. It doesn't even go through your head. It just appears on screen. [S2] Nice. It just, it initiates that flow state. Do you brew it in like a QC or one of those like, uh, little fancy teapots that have the handle on the side? | 19.72 | 3.180838 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011124.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011125 | [S1] Yeah, like, but I make it quite strong. It's nice when it's strong, basically. But a lot of people are quite shocked. You know, here in Britain, if you talk about green tea, tea, people typically think some kind of lifestyle teabag that you might get from a middle-class supermarket- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... that it's actually not, nothing like what green tea actually is. And then when you have the real thing, it's like, oh, that's actually, it can be quite challenging, I think, for some people, 'cause the flavor's quite intense, you know? | 28.08 | 3.426505 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011125.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011126 | [S1] Not bitter, but that kind of deep sort of, um, yeah, richness. [S2] Chlorophyll, have you? [S1] What, sorry? [S2] Like, very chlorophyll heavy? [S1] I guess so, yeah. And then I also really like, uh, my favorite black tea is from the Yunnan province in China. Um, I can't remember what it's called. I just, I can't remember the Chinese name for it. Um, and it's kind of like quite long, but dark sort of stringy bits. | 29.68 | 3.276504 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011126.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011127 | [S1] But that's a really nice black tea. And then- [S2] You heard- [S1] Oh, God, I'm sorry. [S2] It's, uh, have you had the Dragon World green tea? Uh, it's like a sort of, like, lightly roasted green tea. [S1] I, I think I probably have, but it's not something that I'm that familiar with. [S2] It's just so expensive, but, uh, such an interesting sort of, uh, complex, but, like, very light and sort of viscous, uh, texture. It's really crazy. [S1] Mm-hmm. | 22.56 | 3.085826 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011127.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011128 | [S1] You know, we're both in the house working and he's got his projects, I've got mine, and we can kinda exchange ideas and help each other out and work together on things. So that's been a really unusual situation, uh, and kind of nice, I guess. Although stressful sometimes. [S2] Yeah, that's true. [S1] [LAUGHS] You know, there've been a few family rows, uh, in the, in the last year. Several rows, lots of rows, actually. [S2] [LAUGHS] | 28.16 | 3.44346 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011128.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011129 | [S1] Uh, do you mind elaborating on this online system? [S2] Yeah, so basically we, when lockdown hap- you know, when everything started getting canceled, we got lots and lots of offers to do, uh, like streaming kinds of shows. And I, I do, really don't like that whole sort of way of presenting work. You know, like, it's just a bit... It doesn't feel particularly stimulating to me, you know? [S1] Mm-hmm. [S2] Um... | 29.4 | 3.391617 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011129.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011130 | [S1] So for the, the audience who's on, you know, they're on a receiving, uh, the Max Patch and stuff, uh, have you taken, like, their, I guess their speakers and, like, their audio quality into consideration? Like, is that something that you have just sort of, like, you know, accepted that will maybe be- [S2] Yeah, well- [S1] ... earbuds. | 17.4 | 3.259029 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011130.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011131 | [S1] I don't really like the idea of that. So I did this thing where I made a frame. I don't know if you saw it, but it was like a kind of pyramid sort of frame with two directional mics placed on it so that a performer moved this frame around the space according to instructions from the audience given over, uh, YouTube. [S2] Hmm. [S1] So this frame was moved around the space. Because the directional mics were... emphasized the de- the- | 28.76 | 3.395448 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011131.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011132 | [S1] Uh, yeah, I mean, that wasn't the technology I used, but a binaural head is basically a dummy head with two microphones where the ears are. [S2] Gotcha. [S1] And it's a way of kind of, uh, giving a spatial represent, a, a kind of convincing spatial representation of sound using two channels. Um- [S2] Basically- | 21.2 | 3.288848 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011132.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011133 | [S1] ... makes me think of like, uh, like one of those things of a, a 4D or like a high dimensional sort of object that you perceive in 2D when you project it, you know what I'm talking about? Like when you- [S2] Yeah, yeah. [S1] ... try to light through some structure and you can see the, the 2D version of it. [S2] Yeah, I mean, I guess, um, | 18.44 | 3.109327 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011133.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011134 | [S1] The thing is, all, with spatial sound, all sound is spatial. You know, all sound is sound in space. Even if you, you have like a, a monophonic speaker, it's a spatial sound. So all sound is spatial, but then we, all of us only have two ears. [S2] Right. [S1] So, you know, we, we are able to kind of use our two ears to quite effectively work out where sound is coming from in our environment. So, um, | 24.6 | 3.161573 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011134.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011135 | [S1] Yeah, and just, it's kind of like amazing, the strategies that people have for making music, you know, the way people, different people approach making music is like quite remarkable. Um, and some people are quite difficult to work with actually. That's, that's one thing I, that's kind of, uh, yeah, sometimes I'm like, "Oh my God, that was actually quite a brutal experience." [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Um, | 28.76 | 3.460987 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011135.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011136 | [S1] You know, it's like, um, yeah. Does that make sense? That's not a very good answer, I'm sorry. [S2] That's okay. Um, do, would you say that most of the time when you meet with somebody, uh, for a collaboration, does the sort of like inner workings of who does what and like the roles, do that, does that sort of like self-organize or sort of figure itself out, uh, just intuitively? Or do you ever spell it out? [S1] Yeah. | 26.84 | 3.282469 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011136.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011137 | [S1] Yeah, I mean... [S2] Uh, yeah. It's not like we ever sit down and, and kind of formalize that because it's, it's kind of like, there are things I can do and can't do. You know, I can't... Like working with someone like Ok-Yung Lee, who's a cellist. [S1] Mm-hmm. [S2] It's kind of like... | 17.16 | 3.386888 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011137.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011138 | [S1] ... or a percussionist like Will Guthrie, for example. Um, I mean, although Will might have got not, he might have got specific drums that are available to him or not available to him at that time. The point I'm making is the technology kind of decides for you. [S2] Gotcha. Okay. [S1] In terms of like how it all fits together. And I'm kind of happy with that. I'm happy to just do, I'm happy to, | 25.48 | 3.405413 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011138.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011139 | [S1] Um, so, yeah, I just, I'm fixated on titles, basically. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Like, my entire life is a search for titles. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Projects. [S2] Do you have an ongoing list of titles? [S1] Yeah, it's like insanely long. Like, 'cause it's been there for like, probably like 20 years now, building this, this list of unused titles. Um, | 26.56 | 3.243125 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011139.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011140 | [S1] And, you know, whenever I get a project, it's like I look back at that list and sometimes there's something there and sometimes there isn't. But, you know, I can spend, I can spend like months delaying a release 'cause I've not got the right title. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, because the title is, is such a important part of the work, you know? Um, | 22.2 | 3.355031 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011140.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011141 | [S1] ... two, three, seven, four, nine. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And then you multiply, and then that becomes a loop. So you just step through that, that series of values, but then you multiply that by 100 to create an, a duration in milliseconds that makes sense. So 200 milliseconds, 300 milliseconds, et cetera. Um, so, yeah, it's, it's just that simple. Um, | 27.64 | 3.376198 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011141.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011142 | [S1] It's not like I'm trying to kind of hide anything. It's just that there's not really anything to say, if you know what I mean. [S2] Right, right. Um, it, sorry, uh, what am I trying to ask? Uh, is, is there like a, a smallest rhythmic threshold that you use? Like 100 milliseconds is, you know, that's pretty quick already. Um, and I feel like I, like you sent me a patch way back to look through and it was super insightful for me to, uh, get to- [S1] What was the patch? I can't remember what it was. | 28.4 | 3.052702 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011142.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011143 | [S1] Um, I mean, it, it basically was doing what you were doing, where you could sort of like click something and it would, uh, put out different, like, uh, multipliers for, like a, a base, uh, sort of unit size. At least that's how I'm- [S2] Yeah. [S1] ... recollecting it. [S2] Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it, it, it, | 16.92 | 2.938902 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011143.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011144 | [S1] Like with this, the, the kind of speed of events in, in Max, sometimes it might be that it goes down to like two or three milliseconds, you know? [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, and, and, uh... | 12.8 | 3.390147 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011144.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011145 | [S1] Yeah, but, you know, in Max, there's this distinction between the kind of, uh, control rate signals and the audio rate signals. Um, so, so it's not like you can kind of sweep all the way through from a kind of control rate into the sampling frequency, if you see what I mean. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, like, like, you know, there's a di- there's a distinction there between those two timing. | 23.28 | 3.441388 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011145.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011146 | [S1] ... domains of the, the DSP and the control rate. [S2] Right, right. [S1] So it's kind of like on a, on a timing clock or something, it'll get to one millisecond and then, because the object, because it's done at that control rate, it won't be able to go faster than that. Do you see what I mean? [S2] Yeah. I think so, yeah. [S1] Not really, not very clearly. [S2] Yeah, I mean, um, I assume you're using, like, all these, uh, time units or integers and, like, you aren't going to floating points or anything? | 26.56 | 3.400735 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011146.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011148 | [S1] Yeah, I mean, I did this album called Multistability, and when I was making it, I had a different name in mind for the album. So I'm not going to tell you what the name was. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] But basically, I'm making this album, and then at some point, I'm thinking, "The name doesn't feel right. What name am I looking for?" And I came across this idea of multistability, which is like the, the, the, the, the, the thing where you look at an object and you can see it from, | 28.4 | 3.225606 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011148.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011149 | [S1] ... You see several different things. You know, it resolves in different, you know, it might, you might be seeing it from this angle and it's like this, or this angle, it's like this. But, but the, the different positions that you, the, the different things you see are mutually incompatible, so you can never see them both at the same time. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And that's like a really interesting sort of thing. Like, and also, it's not just the, um, | 24.48 | 3.40139 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011149.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011150 | [S1] What, what the, what this thing meant. And now the, the actual concept of multi-stability is like really, really important to me, you know, like in terms of like relationships to technology or how we relate to the world, et cetera. Um, so yeah. [S2] Is there any, uh, reading you would suggest on these topics? [S1] Um, I don't know, actually. Like, | 27.76 | 3.431657 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011150.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011151 | [S1] I mean, there are people that deal with it in terms of like, like the field of phenomenology. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, maybe just, just Google, like, multi-stability phenomenology or something. Um... [S2] Cool. That, I will do that. [S1] I mean, I kinda like, I kinda like it when people find their own way to things. Do you know what I mean? | 25.2 | 3.067829 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011151.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011152 | [S1] Like a lot of people, these days a lot of people are getting in touch with me saying, "Can you share this Max Patch that you just showed?" And it's like, these days, I'd much rather explain what the Max Patch is doing- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... and then let that person have a go at making it. Not because I want to protect, protect my knowledge, but | 19.24 | 3.274965 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011152.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011153 | [S1] If they have a go at making it, they're going to do something a little bit different. [S2] Right. [S1] You know, so they're going to learn something that they wouldn't learn if I just gave it to them, probably. But also, they're going to do something a bit different. They're going to make it a different way. They might make some mistakes and do something that they didn't intend. And that's a really important thing because it means not only are they learning, but they're actually potentially changing, not just doing what they expect, but just something new comes out of it for them. So I think that's, um, | 29.88 | 3.40657 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011153.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011154 | [S1] Um, so I have a, a, a sort of rapid fire section I was gonna do called buzzwords and name drops. [S2] Okay. [S1] Um, so just get a, sort of your response to a few things quickly. And I was gonna do that later, but I'm just gonna drop a few of them real quick. Um, it, in terms of gestalt, are you familiar with Stephen Lahar? He's like a, sort of like psychedelic, uh, gestalt guy. I'm curious if that's ever come up in your, uh, [S2] No, actually, no. | 28.4 | 3.414439 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011154.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011155 | [S1] I'm not a drug user, basically. I don't, I, I'm not somewhat, I've never even smoked a cigarette, ever. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, I'm like, yeah, I've never, I've, yeah, so I'm like the least, not, having said that, all my friends are, like, massive drug users. Um, but, uh, yeah, I'm the, I'm the kind of person in the room that's always looking after them, or was always looking after them back in the days when that sort of thing happened. Um, | 25.56 | 3.132807 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011155.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011156 | [S1] Or do you follow him? Or did you- [S2] I don't. I don't. I mean, I've heard the name and I've come across some stuff, but the fact that I don't really know much about it tells me that I wasn't particularly interested. [S1] He's like the player piano sort of like micro-timing, the boogie-boogie guy. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Uh- [S2] Yeah. [S1] I- I was just curious if, uh, if you followed his music at all or if it was something of interest. Um- [S2] N- no, I mean, there are... Yeah, go on. Sorry. [S1] [LAUGHS] | 29.88 | 3.369565 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011156.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011158 | [S1] It's kind of nice to have that amount of time to just, like, when I perform it, it's kind of di- it's similar but sort of different each time, you know? Like, um, it follows a, generally speaking, the same path, but, like, it dwells in different areas and sometimes moves to different spaces. So I, I like the, the idea that it's a kind of very well-trodden path. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] But that I can kind of, | 25.24 | 3.307406 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011158.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011159 | [S1] ... and see what I find. And that's kind of a nice thing to do in front of an audience, but it doesn't always happen. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, you know, it's, a lot of the time it's like, okay, I, I just go through it. I don't want it to crash. And I enjoy it, you know, and I can see the aud- it's not like I'm totally cynical about it. I'm enjoying listening to the sound and it feels nice. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] But I've become aware that there are just these times when it feel, when there's this, | 26.04 | 3.344218 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011159.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011160 | [S1] ... have fixed limits, basically. So I, I use this object called a multi- ... the multislider a lot. So the multislider, uh, you know, you can have a range of values from like two to 10 or something, or zero to 3,000. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And I, I wouldn't actually change that in the context of a performance. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't change it, basically. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, so that set of options is always, | 24.16 | 3.412299 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011160.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011161 | [S1] ... always remains the same. But, you know, even, even with that limited set of parameters, you can produce a massive amount of variety of rhythmic structures, I think. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] I mean, they're all gonna sound pretty mental and like the kind of stuff I do. You know, they're not gonna be, uh, you know, they're, you're not suddenly gonna get something like, uh, how can I put it? | 27.6 | 3.281433 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011161.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011162 | [S1] ... a kind of quite recognizably normal time structure. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] See what I mean? Um... | 6.56 | 3.339367 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011162.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011163 | [S1] ... You know, I've studied guitar for a long time, and then there was a period of time when I was just like, "This is stupid. This is a heavy instrument that I have to carry around, and this laptop is, like, so powerful." And so I had this sort of utilitarian feeling of, like, I need to move entirely to the laptop. I'm curious how you think about, like, sort of traditional instruments and, uh, th- the future of traditional instruments. [S2] Well, traditional instruments are amazing. [S1] [LAUGHS] [S2] Like, um, like, | 29.16 | 3.241832 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011163.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011164 | [S1] Like the cello, we talked about Ok-Yung Lee. The cello is probably like one of the most amazing synthesizers ever built. You know, it's like, it's mind-blowingly brilliant. I wish there was a treble, treble dial on it, 'cause I would, I would turn the treble up a little bit. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Um, but, um... | 18.28 | 3.182589 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011164.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011165 | [S1] But yeah, it's, it's, it, so the, for me, there's no, there's no kind of like, uh, opposition between digital tools or, like, electric, you know, analog tools or acoustic implements. Like, um, there are things that I like more than others, you know? [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] But, um, you know, there's, there's room on the planet for all of us, I think. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Um, | 24.48 | 3.431112 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011165.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011166 | [S1] ... what I was looking for, but, um, so, yeah, like, I'm actually increasingly more interested in acoustic tools. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] 'Cause I think, um, they are amazing. I mean, I approach them like synthesizers, you know, they're, they're amazing synthesizers. Like, the orchestra is, like, the most amazing synthesizer you can im- Well, it, it's probably not the most amazing synthesizer, but it's a very, you know, if you think of it as a very, very, | 28.48 | 3.385372 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011166.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011167 | [S1] ... complex, spatial, sonic... [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... synthesizer, you know? [S2] Yeah, I mean, also, it's the added complexity of, uh, all the personalities, I guess, and... [LAUGHS] | 9.8 | 3.114231 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011167.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011168 | [S1] Well, I could eas- really easily, I could really easily become a gear fetishist. It's just, I never had the money to do it. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] But, but, but like, when I was a kid, I bought, like, the mu- the synthesizer magazines. There was one or two synthesizer magazines in Britain at that time. I bought them every month. And you could- and I never used any of these synthesizers 'cause I didn't have the money. But you could have asked me any question about any synthesizer that was on the market then, and I would have been able to- | 28.48 | 3.213392 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011168.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011169 | [S1] ... describe it in complete detail, you know, like what were the quirks, what were the things, what were, what were its strengths and weaknesses, and I never heard them, I never used one. Um, so I, I could really easily be a, a complete gear nerd, but for me, the way that manifests itself is you get one thing and look very closely. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] That's, that's my gear nerd and sort of, | 26.08 | 3.413604 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011169.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011170 | [S1] I mean, it doesn't seem as much like it's you, you know, having toys and like your, your toy cars and your like, collections of this. Like it's not as much that, like it's more respectable, I think, to, you know, want to know the nitty-gritty of how things work and sort of how to use it to its fullest. [S2] Yeah, yeah. [S1] I assume you would, so. | 17.16 | 3.193333 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011170.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011171 | [S1] ... 'cause they just, they're such beautiful objects, you know? Like, I'm, I'm, and I'm really obsessed with tools. Um- [S2] What defines- [S1] ... and really good quality tools as well. What, sorry. [S2] What makes a good plier? [S1] I don't know. But there's some, you, when you get a really, some really well-made tools, uh, it makes a big difference, I think, to the feel of them. [S2] Um, so I- [S1] There's a German company, I | 28.48 | 3.079372 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011171.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011172 | [S1] Um, yeah, I, I don't know if I have that many, uh, listeners, but, uh, hopefully. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um, so I, I wanna respect your time, but I have a, a chunk more questions to ask you. Um... [S2] I mean, we can go on as long as you want. I'm, I'm not doing anything, so just... [S1] Awesome. | 15.88 | 3.321494 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011172.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011173 | [S1] constantly saying things like, "Let's think outside the box," kind of stuff. And then, and then just doing, you know, the most boring stuff imaginable. And I'm like, you know, it's like, I don't want to think outside the box. I want to look in the box. I want to see what you've got in the box. Do you know what I mean? [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um, | 20.56 | 3.347708 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011173.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011174 | [S1] Not just the bare performance as a kind of procedural thing that you just follow, you know, in a kind of dispassionate manner. So it's like, okay, I'm really inter- this has got me really interested now about how to actually short-circuit this, these ideas of skill and perfection. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And, um, | 19.32 | 3.346033 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011174.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011175 | [S1] ... its particular characteristics, you know? Like, like that's kind of how, intuitively, that's how I've always worked with equipment. Like, you get a drum machine and, oh, if you do this to it, it produces this, and it's kind of weird. And, um, it's not really the thing that was intended by the drum machine designer, you know? [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, | 20.44 | 3.423962 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011175.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011176 | [S1] ... not being subject to this kind of completely micromanaged musical thing, you know? So there's this, there's a kind of belief that, that you get kind of aesthetic perfection by being increasingly micromanaging about the, you know, the human control of the object- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... is it escalated to the point where, where the, you get this insane, insane level of micromanagement. | 29.08 | 3.299386 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011176.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011177 | [S1] Um, yeah, I mean, and not to, you know, just assume that- [S2] Well, well, uh- [S1] Uh, so the, the Kinevin framework is this, like, uh, thing that discusses, uh, like chaos versus complexity versus complication. And, you know, you mentioned the new complexity movement and, like, uh, assume you're referring to, like, uh, Brian Ferniho and stuff. [S2] Yeah, yeah. [S1] I'm sure that's how you say his name, but, um, uh, so basically in this model, uh, a Ferniho would be, like, essentially complicated because it's, you know, extremely, sort of, | 28.84 | 3.025187 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011177.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011178 | [S1] ... same, like, over-regulation of complication. And so it seems like in having these simpler structures, you're aiming more for that sort of complex emergent, uh, type thing instead of, like, uh, over- [S2] Yeah, but- [S1] ... over-explicit. [S2] Yeah, but also just, just the interaction of simple elements. Even if the music is, like, structurally quite simple, that's kind of all right. You know, I'm, I'm not, um... Yeah, it's, it's difficult to kind of, uh, | 29.08 | 3.165972 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011178.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011179 | Like, I wouldn't say... A lot of people say my music is complex, but for me it is... I'm actually trying to be simple, I think. [S1] Mm-hmm. [S2] You know? Um, so maybe, like, it's unfamiliar, and that's why... And people maybe call it complicated because it's unfamiliar, but actually it's not. Like, like, musically, the structures are, like, super basic, I think. [S1] Mm-hmm. [S2] Um, | 26.08 | 3.403985 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011179.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011180 | [S1] But I think it seems to yield more than the sum of its parts. Like, there seems to be some sort of synergistic, uh, element that, you know, is the secret sauce, or at least that's how I, I feel about your music, so. [S2] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, maybe. I don't know. [S1] [LAUGHS] Fair enough, fair enough. | 18.4 | 2.946942 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011180.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011181 | [S1] Uh, like, like it's certainly not as complex as anything like Britney Spears. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] You know, with that, just in, in basic terms, those, those constructions, those pop music constructions are incredibly complicated, you know? [S2] Yeah, definitely. [S1] Um, but yeah, I, I don't know. [S2] I just want to know- [S1] I'm in a weird position, so- [S2] ... conversation. [S1] Yeah, like, I guess my view is the least valid of everyone's because I'm actually so close up to it, you know? | 28.84 | 3.124196 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011181.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011182 | [S1] Um, let's see here. Um, we can keep going if you want. [S2] Yeah, I, I have a, a bunch of other things to ask you. Um- [S1] Yeah, go for it. [S2] So, uh, let's see here. [S1] If, if I stop this interview now, I have to go and make some food. So, like, my way of getting out and making food is by- [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] ... carrying on with this. So you're doing me a favor. [LAUGHS] [S2] I don't want you to go hungry, though. Um, so, uh- [S1] Yeah, Ryan's making the food, but if I stop, I'll be making the food. | 26.76 | 3.166703 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011182.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011183 | [S1] ... on a keyboard, is that what you're saying? [S2] Yeah, and like, you know, as compared to like, uh, sort of more Western, uh, like counterpoint-oriented, like, uh, you know, very, like, you know, there's like this idea of like, don't use parallel fifths, uh, in a lot of- [S1] I don't know what a parallel fifth is. [S2] There's this whole thing in like writing chorales that you don't wanna have, uh, fifths move in parallel because it sounds against the church or whatever, you know? Um, so- [S1] Yeah, but- [S2] Uh, yeah. | 25.72 | 3.227369 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011183.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011184 | [S1] Yeah, if someone said, "Don't do that," because it's not meant to sound good, I'd actually, that would make me find, that, that would give me pleasure. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] I don't know why. That's our twist. I was thinking the other day, I went, I went to some kind of conference on neuro-aesthetics, and, and it's like, | 17.64 | 3.265892 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011184.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011185 | [S1] Imagine that they found they could press a button. They installed a button on your head and you, and you press this button and it gave you the most intensely aesthetic experience. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] You know what I mean? So you got the aesthetic experience button on your head and it's just doing some kind of basic neurological stuff, you know? I was thinking, if they installed that button on me, I'd refuse to enjoy that experience. | 25.4 | 3.288857 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_14281936_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_BV1XU4y1T7qx_p1_m4-dialogue_0011185.mp3 | [
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