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True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316886064
False
0
c2ma4gh
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma4gh
t3_kq001
null
1427641804
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
It can also aid in designing your classes and methods. Often, but not always, if something is hard to write units tests against there is a design problem.
null
0
1316886095
False
0
c2ma4kl
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma4kl
t1_c2ma2w5
null
1427641813
63
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
garymrush
null
Writing test code, especially in TDD is not just about getting your code to work - it's about productivity. The cost of failing code goes up dramatically the further it gets from the programmer. A bug you just wrote, identified in a test and fix costs a few minutes. A bug in integration can take hours. A bug in deployment can take days.
null
0
1316886159
False
0
c2ma4tu
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma4tu
t1_c2m9xhn
null
1427641811
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
StrangeWill
null
>TDD is extremely valuable for elaborate or sensitive business logic. This most of all, finally got tests set up on our continuous integration server and have been enforcing testing various outcomes on our business logic layer, it's great! I've found already a handful of somewhat rare situations that caused minor issues, and they've been easily fixed, and extending the testing on large parts of the library with different factors is much easier than having someone QA it (we don't actually have dedicated QA, so a lot can slip through), and much easier to program than our Selenium grid (which I complain about it breaking with every minor UI change, I'll look into fixing that sometime later though...).
null
0
1316886163
False
0
c2ma4uc
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma4uc
t1_c2m9mji
null
1427641811
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
I also like having tests on existing code, especially someone else's, so I know if I've broken something doing a refactor. There are often holes in the written specs, often the hole being the complete absence of such.
null
0
1316886234
False
0
c2ma54i
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma54i
t1_c2ma2jp
null
1427641815
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
alekseykorzun
null
Delivering a mission critical trading software while working with dozen de-centralized engineering teams? Yes, you will have to employ architects to define the tests prior to building. Delivering anything less critical? Have a good team that can communicate and read the specs? Do they know what they are doing? Skip the TDD and save your self time and headaches. I don't care if you are a super engineer, you will have to re-factor some aspects of the application when changes are prompted from engineering level, systems level or business level during building/initial public launch. While you are in launch stage do a x/x split and assign engineers to fixing any fires that will pop-up or changes and latter will start writing tests for the application. By the time you have to do a second release of software you will have the tests you wanted (and this is where they are most useful, to make sure this new release will not break any of your existing logic).
null
0
1316886245
False
0
c2ma56c
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma56c
t3_kq001
null
1427641816
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
IrishWilly
null
Regardless of your stance on TDD, neither the article or Loubsers comment gave much of an argument for either. They both sound like the bullshit 'my style is better than yours; you must not be a *real* coder' crap that seems to plague programming blogs.
null
0
1316886271
False
0
c2ma59s
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma59s
t1_c2m9zus
null
1427641817
37
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
alk509
null
TIL that paying grunts to stress test your app automagically fixes bugs!
null
0
1316886319
False
0
c2ma5gq
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma5gq
t1_c2m9xhn
null
1427641819
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
NowTheyTellMe
null
You can map the lines of suasion by watching the linguistic mimicry in groups. It can provide insight into where the thought centers of the organization lie, and who must be influenced to achieve specific action.
null
0
1316886330
False
0
c2ma5il
t3_kogj4
null
t1_c2ma5il
t1_c2m1sry
null
1427641819
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
Being a mediocre programmer, I've come to use tests as a mechanism to improve. It's pretty clear I've screwed something up when my tests get large and/or complex.
null
0
1316886349
False
0
c2ma5kv
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma5kv
t1_c2m9z2z
null
1427641820
8
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
IrishWilly
null
All you have to do is build a full simulation of the real world as your test suite and your 10 line script will be bullet proof!
null
0
1316886362
False
0
c2ma5mn
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma5mn
t1_c2m9yp6
null
1427641821
20
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
garymrush
null
I agree that a good set of tests help others, especially during refactoring. Test-DRIVEN-Development however is about you. You only write the code you need because you're only writing it to satisfy your test. You only wrote that test because you wanted a feature. You factor complexity out of your code because it makes it easier to test. These are all strategies that help you write good code efficiently.
null
0
1316886446
False
0
c2ma5y9
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma5y9
t1_c2m9zc3
null
1427641823
8
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
d4m45t4
null
Spot on. I used to hate on TDD just like the author until I finally understood it.
null
0
1316886449
False
0
c2ma5yt
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma5yt
t1_c2ma42r
null
1427641823
8
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
StrawberryFrog
null
> No one knows what the fuck TDD is ... flavor of the month I recommend the book "Test Driven Development" by Kent Beck, 2002. It may not be the last word in TTD, but I think it ticks the boxes of showing that 1) Some people do actually know what TTD is quite well, and 2) it is not a short-lived fad.
null
0
1316886475
True
0
c2ma62d
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma62d
t1_c2ma1vb
null
1427641825
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316886515
True
0
c2ma684
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2ma684
t1_c2m9jlp
null
1427641830
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
I follow that for the most part, I run non time consuming test suite about five times per hour, and the time consuming tests on each commit, every two hours or so.
null
0
1316886560
False
0
c2ma6e2
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma6e2
t1_c2ma3fc
null
1427641829
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
garymrush
null
Having done TDD for a number of years, I know what it means to me. It may or may not be the flavor of the month, but it is a real strategy for writing software. I suppose I may have already waded through the proverbial lake of shit :)
null
0
1316886592
False
0
c2ma6hy
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma6hy
t1_c2ma1vb
null
1427641830
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
And you can still get wet sitting under a roof.
null
0
1316886643
False
0
c2ma6p2
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma6p2
t1_c2m9sun
null
1427641841
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
dakboy
null
Because they have no concept of memory management?
null
0
1316886687
False
0
c2ma6v3
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2ma6v3
t1_c2ma0km
null
1427641835
11
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
Angry nerd used RANT. It's not very effective.
null
0
1316886768
False
0
c2ma75s
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma75s
t3_kq001
null
1427641839
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
hacksoncode
null
You know, the biggest thing I've always wondered about "test driven development" is "what process do you use to develop your tests?".
null
0
1316886800
False
0
c2ma7a5
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma7a5
t3_kq001
null
1427641839
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316886871
False
0
c2ma7jn
t3_kpk5f
null
t1_c2ma7jn
t1_c2m54qn
null
1428193036
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ZorbaTHut
null
> If your tests are complex, that's a smell that your code is too complex. What if it's a sign that your project is complex?
null
0
1316887033
False
0
c2ma881
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma881
t1_c2m9xlh
null
1427641855
11
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316887070
False
0
c2ma8db
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma8db
t1_c2ma4kl
null
1427641857
14
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Trevoke
null
I got a new point of view on TDD when I saw it described as **Test-Driven Design**. Indeed, you don't need to write tests first all the time - but you should always write tests and code at the same time.
null
0
1316887073
False
0
c2ma8dq
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma8dq
t3_kq001
null
1427641860
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ex_ample
null
If you *can* write your tests before your code then chances are you're not working on anything particularly interesting. Like, how would you write 'tests' for a 3D engine before you actually start coding it? Or a video codec? If you're writing 'business logic' where all you have to do is take data from one source, transform it, and move it another source then yeah, obviously it would be possible to write the tests first. But the problem there is, what if there are bugs in your tests? I this situation the tests aren't going to be much more complex then the code itself -- and just as prone to error. It would be just as easy to write a separate version of the software, and compare the results as a test. Sometimes I actually do this: I'll write one version that just stores data in memory, and then write the complex version that uses files or a database, and compare the results.
null
0
1316887193
False
0
c2ma8ta
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma8ta
t3_kq001
null
1427641864
9
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
sebzim4500
null
I was blown away by the vibrant community over there.
null
0
1316887326
False
0
c2ma9bc
t3_kmevq
null
t1_c2ma9bc
t1_c2m1nc7
null
1427641871
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
starspangledpickle
null
You hit the nail on the head, but a lot of developers take TDD to mean *Unit*test-Driven Development, which it may not necessarily involve. Testing a complex UI is next to impossible to do efficiently and in a scalable manner with unit tests; for that you need automated ui testing.
null
0
1316887344
False
0
c2ma9e0
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma9e0
t1_c2m9mji
null
1427641872
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
garymrush
null
Yes, writing a failing test before modifying code is important to TDD, but you don't need to run a "small test suite every time a single line of code" changes. Just test, code and refactor - in that order. If the author had more experience with TDD rather than just reading about it, I doubt we'd be having this nice chat.
null
0
1316887485
False
0
c2ma9x7
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2ma9x7
t1_c2ma3fc
null
1427641876
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
gbacon
null
So when does refactoring take place?
null
0
1316887574
False
0
c2maaa6
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maaa6
t1_c2ma3fc
null
1427641881
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
chowychow
null
C has real/high performance collection classes. Library format. Precompile
null
0
1316887583
False
0
c2maabi
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2maabi
t1_c2ma3ge
null
1427641880
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
bobindashadows
null
To find more on what you've stumbled onto here, you'll want to look into *first-class environments*. Here's a good primer link: [Abstract Heresies](http://funcall.blogspot.com/2009/09/first-class-environments.html)
null
0
1316887603
False
0
c2maaem
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2maaem
t1_c2m75qr
null
1427641880
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
markatto
null
I wouldn't call it a "horrid monstrosity." It's still better than traditional syslog. Rsyslog is the way to go these though, it supports tls for remote logging.
null
0
1316887632
False
0
c2maais
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2maais
t1_c2m98t9
null
1427641880
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
kamatsu
null
Don't ask me, ask Bob Martin.
null
0
1316887656
False
0
c2maam3
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maam3
t1_c2maaa6
null
1427641882
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
andytuba
null
A few complex tests sound okay, but the theory is that you should still have lots of smaller bits of code which can be tested with small tests.
null
0
1316887663
False
0
c2maanj
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maanj
t1_c2ma881
null
1427641883
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
pingveno
null
None, True, and False are converted to constants in Python 3. Adding them as keywords is how the conversion is implemented. No one should assign to any of them anyway. Python 3 is just enforcing that good practice. For the speed demons, the conversion eliminates an unnecessary global lookup. The bytecode compiler can generate highly efficient code for: while True: ... Before, people used 1 instead of True because True required a global lookup. Now, it directly loads the C values Py_None/Py_True/Py_False without a lookup. Use the dis module to see what I mean.
null
0
1316887795
False
0
c2mab58
t3_kos4z
null
t1_c2mab58
t1_c2m98g0
null
1427641889
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
mentalbrew
null
The only issue I have with this response is that too many simple CRUD applications become a code hairball that just gets bigger and bigger over time. Perhaps you could add testing as you start to implement behavior further from basic CRUD.
null
0
1316887803
False
0
c2mab6p
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mab6p
t1_c2m9mji
null
1427641889
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
panfist
null
>I see great value in having unit tests, but less value in insisting that the tests get written before the code they test. Well, it's just one way of insuring that the tests actually get written, ever. If you or your team is disciplined, I don't think it matters when the tests are written.
null
0
1316887821
False
0
c2mab9f
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mab9f
t1_c2m9yvv
null
1427641890
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
andytuba
null
Are we reading the same article?
null
0
1316887836
False
0
c2mabbm
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mabbm
t1_c2m8q2w
null
1427641891
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ItsNotMeReally
null
As a manager in IT, let me tell you precious little developers something. You can argue all fucking day long about whose dick is bigger than whose. You can make fun of one another. You can hate one another. You can read some article in a magazine about how you've found the latest greatest thing: agile, extreme programming, TDD, DDD, and the list of stupid fucking ideas goes on. I don't even care if you write your code and masturbate on your monitor because you used lambda expressions in C# while the VB.Net guys had to write a bunch of extra code. I don't fucking care about any of that. But your work still better be done on time, under budget and better fucking work and make us a profit. If not, you are fired, and I don't care what kind of cocksucking methodology you are using. And that's real.
null
0
1316887894
True
0
c2mabjt
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mabjt
t3_kq001
null
1427641897
-19
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
NewbieProgrammerMan
null
It's ok, PimpDawg's BDD is a private member that's only used within the context of the MakingShitloadsOfMoneyOnPHBIgnorance class. *Edit: typo*
null
0
1316887987
False
0
c2mabxb
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mabxb
t1_c2m9xva
null
1427641899
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
i_ate_god
null
there is no point in 100% coverage. You're going to write tests for getters and setters? c'mon...
null
0
1316888037
False
0
c2mac44
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mac44
t1_c2ma8db
null
1427641902
19
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
LainIwakura
null
Yes, Zombie Mozart rose up and implemented his virtual machine about 10 years ago. Unfortunately he was dissatisfied so recently he rose up again to redesign it.
null
0
1316888080
False
0
c2macaj
t3_kpwjl
null
t1_c2macaj
t1_c2m9jfu
null
1427641903
12
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
toddffw
null
Downvote. This guy is an amateur.
null
0
1316888102
False
0
c2macdp
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2macdp
t3_kq001
null
1427641905
-7
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
i_ate_god
null
the author doesn't hate TDD. He hates the promotion of it as a one-size-fits-all solution, which any methodology is not.
null
0
1316888112
False
0
c2macfv
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2macfv
t1_c2ma5yt
null
1428193031
25
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cdsmith
null
> I don't think you necessarily have to write 100% of your tests up front to be practicing test-driven development, but some purists may disagree. That's a meaningless semantic distinction. Test-driven development implies writing your tests first, so to the extent that you aren't writing your tests before you write code designed to make those use cases work, of course you aren't doing 100% TDD. That said, no one does 100% TDD anyway. It's a stupid goal, and would be a complete waste of your time to obsess over whether you're *really* doing TDD or not in every corner of your project. You should do TDD when it helps you, and not when it doesn't. That implies continuing to use good judgement. It means that all sorts of factors, like what problem you're solving, what other tools you're using, whether your language has static types, whether you have a solid formalism or just a collection of use cases... every one of these things enters into your value judgement of whether to follow the TDD process closely, or just junk it and do what you know is right. I can't imagine many people would disagree with that... but people often surprise me.
null
0
1316888143
False
0
c2macki
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2macki
t1_c2ma2jp
null
1427641908
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
Huh, I'm an designer and lead engineer on a large project and Dawid Loubser sounds like the exact kind of asshole contractor I walk out the door after suffering with his bullshit for a couple weeks. OMG YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG I AM CERTIFIED IN XXX AND HAVE WORKED AT MANY LARGE COMPANIES AND THIS IS THE WORST XXX I'VE EVER SEEN AND.... and we have a long history of delivering very high quality software on time without busting our ass to fit some bullshit methodology, so thank you for your time but your services are no longer required.
null
0
1316888201
False
0
c2macsi
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2macsi
t1_c2m9u47
null
1427641911
22
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cdsmith
null
That's definitely not TDD, then. If you're just trying to get unit tests written, then that's called unit testing. If you see unit testing as an objective approach to software design, and the tests themselves as benevolent side effects of that design process, that's TDD. Of course, in the real world, you'll always be doing something of a hybrid.
null
0
1316888263
False
0
c2mad11
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mad11
t1_c2ma2w5
null
1427641914
13
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
gronkkk
null
Not anymore. Earlier, there was a paragraph about how the author didn't want to hire anyone who ran his own mail server (and who would be obsessing over the advantages of qmail or postfix in an interview) instead of choosing google's service.
null
0
1316888379
False
0
c2madh3
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2madh3
t1_c2mabbm
null
1427641929
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
matthieum
null
Using tabs only is chaotic (everyone has their own preferences for the tab expansion length). Using a mix of tabs and whitespaces is error-prone (in whitespace aware languages), as it might not work so well with reindentation. The real bummer, of course, is that tabs are "invisible": they look like regular whitespaces but are not. I've got enough to look for already, I don't have time to look for "invisible" bugs.
null
0
1316888460
False
0
c2madrr
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2madrr
t1_c2m363z
null
1427641927
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
i_ate_god
null
> In unit testing one should always test bits of functionality called 'methods'. If you find them to big to test, split them up in several smaller ones. If you're writing tests for all your methods, you're wasting time. There are plenty of methods that will get tested implicitly. 100% code coverage is usually, but not always, a pointless goal.
null
0
1316888483
False
0
c2maduv
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maduv
t1_c2m9snj
null
1427641929
18
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
StrangeWill
null
>Why the fuck is anyone writing an application that consumes 32GB of memory in Javascript? Because learning other languages is hard, derp.
null
0
1316888523
False
0
c2mae06
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mae06
t1_c2ma0km
null
1427641930
12
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
matthieum
null
Certainly. Never said otherwise. I was just explaining the joke as your comment looked like you had not got it.
null
0
1316888539
False
0
c2mae31
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2mae31
t1_c2m2ia9
null
1427641931
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
summerteeth
null
I thought I read that Gmail's backend was written in Javascript. Sounded strange to me but it's hard to argue with the results. EDIT: argh downvotes, should have known better than to post this without a citation >At the USENIX annual conference last month, Gmail engineer Adam de Boor surprised the audience by noting that the company's Gmail service was written entirely in JavaScript, and that all of its code, around 443,000 lines worth, was written by hand. [http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/google-executive-frustrated-java-c-complexity-375 ](http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/google-executive-frustrated-java-c-complexity-375)
null
0
1316888542
True
0
c2mae3l
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mae3l
t1_c2m9jlp
null
1427641931
-6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
StrangeWill
null
I have no problem saying that PHP is terrible. Popular, easy, flexible, _I still use it_, but terrible.
null
0
1316888615
False
0
c2maedg
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2maedg
t1_c2m9mhe
null
1427641933
16
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
andytuba
null
Ah. Shame that Blogger doesn't implement a "*" edited indicator.
null
0
1316888632
False
0
c2maefl
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maefl
t1_c2madh3
null
1427641934
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cdsmith
null
Oh, good point... I assumed that when he talked about writing tests first, he meant for the specific bit of code you're about to write. If he really is arguing against writing *all* tests first, then of course that's dumb. But I don't see any indication of that in the article.
null
0
1316888636
False
0
c2maeg6
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maeg6
t1_c2m9xlh
null
1427641934
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316888695
True
0
c2maeod
t3_kp1b5
null
t1_c2maeod
t1_c2m8sme
null
1427641936
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ash_gti
null
Perl and Perl6 have this capability. In perl you can use PadWalker to look at lexically scoped variables and subroutine pads. In perl6 there is a much richer set of tools for this, including a number of tools to analyze lexical and package scopes and traverse them in a very straight forward way. The psuedo package OUTER, for instance, will just move 1 lexpad up. In perl 5 you need to do PadWalker::my_peek (1); to move up 1 lexpad, but its not all that difficult all things considered.
null
0
1316888736
False
0
c2maetr
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2maetr
t1_c2m7oxh
null
1427641937
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
matthieum
null
It's not a work around. C++ is the language I use the most, and it is not whitespace aware :) It is just that copy-pasting is "dumb", I think. I prefer to recopy manually because it works around the limitation of my *brain*, which needs some time to process things. By rewriting, in my own style, with my own naming convention, I am taking the time to assimilate the information.
null
0
1316888747
False
0
c2maevm
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2maevm
t1_c2m2ho6
null
1427641938
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
karlhungus
null
AFAIK TDD doesn't imply integration tests at all.
null
0
1316888849
False
0
c2maf9w
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maf9w
t1_c2m8qvx
null
1427641943
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
akmark
null
I feel that database software is the kind of thing that needs rocket-science level consistency or else it completely fails. If you can't trust your database 100% then you can and will find something else. TDD is the guarantee you can hang your hat on in that case. I mean it's like the standard library of any language, if it doesn't work how it says in the spec you can't help but feel personally WRONGED for it.
null
0
1316888931
False
0
c2maflm
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maflm
t1_c2ma0kq
null
1428193029
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
0xABADC0DA
null
> I broadly agree that many of 0xABADC0DA's downvotes are unwarranted ... > It's naive when programmers think it's enough to win on technical merits alone. Pretty much describes this thread. > However, HTTP pipelining has been a part of the standard for over a decade and nobody uses it. Even the downvoters here couldn't bury my post saying pipelining is used and works so I really doubt nobody uses it. Also it is [enabled by default](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_pipelining#Implementation_in_web_browsers) in Opera. > This makes me think there are fundamental issues involved. *What* fundamental issues? A problem with this thread is that people haven't been able to express why pipelining can't and shouldn't be fixed (programmers saying something is 'impossible' and 'cannot be done', Turing would be rolling over in his grave if he had one). > In a thread above, 0xABADC0DA has gotten himself into a situation where he's arguing over details of the USB standardization process, as if this will prove that design-by-committee can produce clean, fast results. I hardly think the problems of design-by-committee need to be strongly argued Yes I posted too many replies on side-issues and minor points. Mostly in this case I just wanted to understand your point of view better, you see I feel that committees actually produce better results on average. But with a committee there's almost always somebody you can easily blame, the committee itself, the competitors that participated in it, etc. Look I understand the downvotes. Spdy is from Google, so saying that Spdy is a poor solution to the problem / unnecessary offends many Google fans. The blog post about implementing it is by Mozilla, so it offends Firefox fans when I say they are aping Google (like with version numbers, UI, etc). And I also supported the work of committees. That certainly covers a majority of readers here that would downvote posts just because they don't like the point being made. I had hoped that somebody could have actually responded with technical merits of Spdy though.
null
0
1316888937
False
0
c2mafmb
t3_kp1b5
null
t1_c2mafmb
t1_c2m8sme
null
1428193029
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
matthieum
null
Or you're going to remove the last catch clause because you never got the test to fire it anyway; so it'll never happen, right ?
null
0
1316888965
False
0
c2mafrd
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mafrd
t1_c2mac44
null
1427641952
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Zephyrix
null
MSVC actually has an option to enable this for your own applications under C/C++ -> Code Generation
null
0
1316888975
False
0
c2mafsv
t3_kmshh
null
t1_c2mafsv
t3_kmshh
null
1427641952
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ash_gti
null
CL would of never occurred had people not been evolving existing lisps implementations. Its not bad for a language/paradigm/eco-system to evolve.
null
0
1316889115
False
0
c2magce
t3_kp1pf
null
t1_c2magce
t1_c2m7dsv
null
1427641967
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
argv_minus_one
null
I'm talking about the site. It looks like a bad dot-com.
null
0
1316889121
False
0
c2magd9
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2magd9
t1_c2maais
null
1427641967
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
matthieum
null
I don't see the relationship between writing test before/after code (which is the debate), and you mention of UI testing (which is hellish, I agree).
null
0
1316889139
False
0
c2magfh
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2magfh
t1_c2ma9e0
null
1427641958
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
xiongchiamiov
null
Well, sure. :) But seriously, I've never understood how people consider it a feature to be able to check in code with terrible-ass formatting. That's the sort of thing I block with a pre-commit hook - it makes your code look ugly and pisses off anyone who uses different tab-expansion rules than you.
null
0
1316889278
False
0
c2magya
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2magya
t1_c2m4qqw
null
1427641966
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
jzwinck
null
Great for Debian-based systems, but not Red Hat ones.
null
0
1316889303
False
0
c2mah1r
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2mah1r
t1_c2m6cfv
null
1427641967
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
dngrmouse
null
kendall square, of course. (groan)
null
0
1316889403
False
0
c2maheo
t3_kow8f
null
t1_c2maheo
t1_c2lzdi5
null
1427641972
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
matthieum
null
I ticked on "if the tests passed, you aren't allowed to edit the code" too. I suppose the idea was not to oppose refactoring, but to oppose adding new functionalities / patching bugs without adding the appropriate tests before.
null
0
1316889486
False
0
c2mahq7
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mahq7
t1_c2maaa6
null
1427641978
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
xiongchiamiov
null
If I have getters and setters, they're doing something important - not all of us have to write in Java.
null
0
1316889503
False
0
c2mahso
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mahso
t1_c2mac44
null
1427641979
22
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ZorbaTHut
null
It's a nice *idea*, but for some projects, the source of bugs tend to be the complex interactions between small bits of code. Unit testing is great for verifying that your code works as intended, but it doesn't help for verifying that your intentions don't have bugs. I'm in the game industry, and I gotta say that I've never come up with a sensible way to unit-test most of the stuff I work on. To say nothing about how often those unit tests would have to be changed.
null
0
1316889537
False
0
c2mahxb
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mahxb
t1_c2maanj
null
1427641979
13
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
comment-dwim
null
Are we talking about [first-class environments](http://rosettacode.org/wiki/First_class_environments) or just closures whose bindings have [indefinite extent](http://www.ida.liu.se/imported/cltl/clm/node43.html)?
null
0
1316889553
False
0
c2mahz8
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2mahz8
t1_c2m7oxh
null
1427641980
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
stillalone
null
There's an ssize_t. A lot of Unix commands return negative numbers for errors or a positive size.
null
0
1316889568
False
0
c2mai19
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mai19
t1_c2m9gcv
null
1427641981
8
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
xiongchiamiov
null
Eh, TDD is very specifically about having tests written first. The point is not to have tests that insure you haven't broken anything, but rather to have tests that tell you when to stop writing code. If you write the code first, then you may be writing too much.
null
0
1316889669
False
0
c2maie0
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maie0
t1_c2mab9f
null
1427641984
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
MillardFillmore
null
Ive had numpy arrays of several GB in the past. Why didn't I recode everything in C++? Because I didn't want to spend two days recoding something that took an hour in Python. There are legitimate reasons when you just want to try something big out.
null
0
1316889718
False
0
c2maikv
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2maikv
t1_c2ma0km
null
1427641987
41
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
We were once assigned the exercise of devising our own binary image format to encode a small picture file filled with basic shapes. The basic idea was to invent BMP all over. Instead, I devised a crappy binary vector format for the lulz. Teacher allowed it. :)
null
0
1316889751
False
0
c2maip8
t3_gvnfk
null
t1_c2maip8
t1_c1qmnr1
null
1427641987
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
starspangledpickle
null
Nor did I make that relationship, but I suppose the comment is a bit off tangent. Nevertheless, it is still a frequent mistake made by people who use TDD.
null
0
1316889781
False
0
c2mait5
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mait5
t1_c2magfh
null
1427641990
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
xiongchiamiov
null
Kent Beck once said "I'm not a great programmer, I'm a pretty good programmer with great habits.". This is pretty much what I strive for.
null
0
1316889850
False
0
c2maj2i
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maj2i
t1_c2ma5kv
null
1427641993
12
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
Wow. How on earth did you go through with it? As a naturally lazy person, I would've instantly looked everywhere for something involving less effort.
null
0
1316889853
False
0
c2maj31
t3_gvnfk
null
t1_c2maj31
t1_c1qnt14
null
1427641993
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
I totally agree to that, unit tests for trivial methods like setters and getters are a waste of time.
null
0
1316889874
False
0
c2maj64
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2maj64
t1_c2maduv
null
1427641993
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
kanistr
null
Isn't this an apples to oranges comparison? You bring the benefits of V8 vs the CPython interpreter. The same things can be said about any other more performant language environment, including python's pypy. So, it appears that the ONLY benefit of using javascript the language instead of something else (the point brought by crusoe) is that you can share server side and client side code. But honestly is this such a big deal as people tend to make it out?
null
0
1316889888
True
0
c2maj85
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2maj85
t1_c2m9lex
null
1427642002
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Koreija
null
> Yes, college programmers often believe this. No I know it, because none of the candidates without degree were ever able to reason about their code or to just formulate simple properties and invariants. Even on a lower level most of them never heard of many error classes. > College trained developers generate significantly larger code to > accomplish the same goal, and it is significantly more full of error. Because more knowledge leads to more errors and UNix, KISS, suckless, dietlibc... were censored by universities. > I've never once gotten UML from a self trained programmer. Of course, they never learned to write specifications. They start without thinking and in better cases add some test cases with low coverage. > Oh look, he's a style zealot, what a surprise. No, I prefer task specific paradigms and languages. Same problem - I never met a "self-taught" programmer who was able to switch type systems, languages, paradigms. Ok - sometimes languages, but they were all the same (C#, Java, Python...). And yes, last decade showed that there are no advantages in OOP over other paradigms. > If you have a degree, you aren't interested in jobs. You have a greater choice, especially with interesting jobs. > bunch of religious garbage Yeah, the typical "I'm better without a degree because I didn't know all da shit". The mechanic is better than someone with a degree in automotive engineering, the programmer is better than a CS... > and always produces superior results See, you even ignored the direction of my implication. Bad fault in my job.
null
0
1316890065
False
0
c2majww
t3_khkyd
null
t1_c2majww
t1_c2m8sx7
null
1427642004
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316890192
False
0
c2make1
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2make1
t1_c2mac44
null
1427642010
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
diroussel
null
It's probably a Spanish vs French thing, judging by the authors name.
null
0
1316890196
False
0
c2maker
t3_knoub
null
t1_c2maker
t1_c2lqz8a
null
1427642010
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
andytuba
null
Ah, yep. a $20/hr QA team still proves useful. I hear you on updating tests. When I first learned about TDD, I recoiled at the thought of how much time I'd need to spend doing test maintenance in addition to code. I suppose it's the price of good development, but -- as has been mentioned in other threads -- hard to do on a money/time budget.
null
0
1316890257
False
0
c2makmi
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2makmi
t1_c2mahxb
null
1427642024
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
RedSpikeyThing
null
I seem to remember him saying that your first test should fail because the function your testing doesn't yet exist. I would wager his argument would be write a test for the new function/class/whatever you're pulling out and watch it fail because it doesn't exist yet. It's a retarded idea.
null
0
1316890351
False
0
c2makzc
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2makzc
t1_c2maaa6
null
1428193023
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
MatrixFrog
null
Monkey patching is possible in Python too.
null
0
1316890366
False
0
c2mal1j
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mal1j
t1_c2m9k9d
null
1427642028
-1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
GetOffTheBus
null
Yes, it all depends where in the onion you are. If you're at the middle, then you'll want a lot of tiny checks to maintain consistency for the rest of the layers. If you're on the outer edges of the onion, then it's better to have testing that tries to simulate actual use of the onion, like use testing or smoke testing.
null
0
1316890399
False
0
c2mal5o
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mal5o
t1_c2ma0kq
null
1427642031
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
RedSpikeyThing
null
Unit tests should not be complex. Something larger like integration tests are necessarily complex.
null
0
1316890412
False
0
c2mal7f
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mal7f
t1_c2ma881
null
1427642032
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
neoquietus
null
Often, yes. This is not because I doubt the ability of the compiler to do it correctly; it is because the getter/setter may be updated in the future to have more complicated behavior and/or side-effects, such as caching.
null
0
1316890524
False
0
c2malmi
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2malmi
t1_c2mac44
null
1427642037
11
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
What the fuck am I reading?
null
0
1316890577
False
0
c2malt7
t3_gvnfk
null
t1_c2malt7
t1_c1qm5z9
null
1427642040
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
flussence
null
You seem to be missing the point, which is that you're wrong in implying MariaDB is somehow deficient because you have to actually be able to think to install it in your distro of choice. Google Chromium was late getting into most distro repositories too, does that make it a bad browser?
null
0
1316890662
False
0
c2mam4a
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2mam4a
t1_c2m9vy4
null
1427642045
-1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
HammerOfThor
null
Bah, my personal pet peeve is treating TDD (or any methodology) as some sort of religious experience so that if you criticize it must be because you "don't get it". It is wholly possible for an intelligent person to have earnestly tried TDD and to have come to the conclusion that it doesn't make their code better. This attitude stifles discussions and constructive criticism from bubbling up.
null
0
1316890704
False
0
c2mam9u
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mam9u
t1_c2m9zus
null
1427642047
29
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
zero_iq
null
C does not have collection classes. The only 'collection' provided by C is the array. C does not have a concept of 'class'. C does not have a library format. If you're thinking of .lib, .o, .so, then that's not C the language, that's the development environment/OS. C does not provide management of precompiled artifacts. Build systems/compilers may do, but C, as a language, doesn't. C, the language, provides none of those things. I'm not at all knocking C, I'm just trying to highlight how none of those things limits what can be done with the language itself, and what is provided by development and runtime environment, which is independent of the language specification.
null
0
1316890712
True
0
c2maman
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2maman
t1_c2maabi
null
1427642047
12
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
i_ate_god
null
and thankfully so :P but I just use getters and setters as an example. Code is full of triviality that do not need explicit tests.
null
0
1316890758
False
0
c2mamhh
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mamhh
t1_c2mahso
null
1427642049
9
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ZorbaTHut
null
> I suppose it's the price of good development, but -- as has been mentioned in other threads -- hard to do on a money/time budget. Yeah, I think that's one of the core conflicts I have with TDD. It's all well and nice to say "this is what code should ideally be like given infinite time and budget", but reality doesn't work that way. I want to know how I can produce the best end product in the least amount of time and money. If you've got an idea that makes my end product 5% better and costs 1% more, I'm all ears. If you've got an idea that makes my end product 10% better and costs 100% more, GTFO. Test driven design sometimes seems like it's leaning more towards the latter.
null
0
1316890789
False
0
c2mamm1
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mamm1
t1_c2makmi
null
1427642052
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
dodehoekspiegel
null
C is also simple, which Haskell isn't in the slightest.
null
0
1316890818
False
0
c2mampj
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2mampj
t1_c2ma3gr
null
1427642052
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null