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19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | As already stated in the chosen answer, Bellman-Ford performs the check on all the vertices, Dijkstra only on the one with the best distance calculated so far. Again already noted, this improves the complexity of the Dijkstra approach, however it requires to compare all the vertices to find out the minimum distance value. Being this not necessary in the Bellman-Ford, it is easier to implement in a distributed environment. That's why it is used in Distance Vector routing protocols (e.g., RIP and IGRP), where mostly local information is used. To use Dijkstra in routing protocols, instead, it is necessary first to distribute the entire topology, and this is what happens in Link State protocols, such as OSPF and ISIS. | I do not agree completely, difference is in implementation and complexity, Dijsktra's algorithm is faster (O(n^2)) but difficult to implement, while Bellman Ford complexity is O(n^3) but is easier to implement. |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | Bellman-Ford algorithm is a single-source shortest path algorithm, so when you have negative edge weight then it can detect negative cycles in a graph.
The only difference between the two is that Bellman-Ford is also capable of handling negative weights whereas Dijkstra Algorithm can only handle positives.
From [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellman%E2%80%93Ford_algorithm)
>
> However, Dijkstra's algorithm greedily selects the minimum-weight node
> that has not yet been processed, and performs this relaxation process
> on all of its outgoing edges; in contrast, the Bellman–Ford algorithm
> simply relaxes all the edges, and does this |V | − 1 times, where |V |
> is the number of vertices in the graph. In each of these repetitions,
> the number of vertices with correctly calculated distances grows, from
> which it follows that eventually all vertices will have their correct
> distances. **This method allows the Bellman–Ford algorithm to be applied
> to a wider class of inputs than Dijkstra.**
>
>
>
Dijkstra is however generally considered better in the absence of negative weight edges, as a typical binary heap priority queue implementation has O((|E|+|V|)log|V|) time complexity [A Fibonacci heap priority queue gives O(|V|log|V| + |E|)], while the Bellman-Ford algorithm has O(|V||E|) complexity | As already stated in the chosen answer, Bellman-Ford performs the check on all the vertices, Dijkstra only on the one with the best distance calculated so far. Again already noted, this improves the complexity of the Dijkstra approach, however it requires to compare all the vertices to find out the minimum distance value. Being this not necessary in the Bellman-Ford, it is easier to implement in a distributed environment. That's why it is used in Distance Vector routing protocols (e.g., RIP and IGRP), where mostly local information is used. To use Dijkstra in routing protocols, instead, it is necessary first to distribute the entire topology, and this is what happens in Link State protocols, such as OSPF and ISIS. |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | Bellman-Ford algorithm is a single-source shortest path algorithm, so when you have negative edge weight then it can detect negative cycles in a graph.
The only difference between the two is that Bellman-Ford is also capable of handling negative weights whereas Dijkstra Algorithm can only handle positives.
From [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellman%E2%80%93Ford_algorithm)
>
> However, Dijkstra's algorithm greedily selects the minimum-weight node
> that has not yet been processed, and performs this relaxation process
> on all of its outgoing edges; in contrast, the Bellman–Ford algorithm
> simply relaxes all the edges, and does this |V | − 1 times, where |V |
> is the number of vertices in the graph. In each of these repetitions,
> the number of vertices with correctly calculated distances grows, from
> which it follows that eventually all vertices will have their correct
> distances. **This method allows the Bellman–Ford algorithm to be applied
> to a wider class of inputs than Dijkstra.**
>
>
>
Dijkstra is however generally considered better in the absence of negative weight edges, as a typical binary heap priority queue implementation has O((|E|+|V|)log|V|) time complexity [A Fibonacci heap priority queue gives O(|V|log|V| + |E|)], while the Bellman-Ford algorithm has O(|V||E|) complexity | The only difference is that Dijkstra's algorithm cannot handle negative edge weights which Bellman-ford handles.And bellman-ford also tells us whether the graph contains negative cycle.
If graph doesn't contain negative edges then Dijkstra's is always better.
An efficient alternative for Bellman-ford is Directed Acyclic Graph (DAG) which uses topological sorting.
<http://www.geeksforgeeks.org/shortest-path-for-directed-acyclic-graphs/> |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | Bellman-Ford algorithm is a single-source shortest path algorithm, so when you have negative edge weight then it can detect negative cycles in a graph.
The only difference between the two is that Bellman-Ford is also capable of handling negative weights whereas Dijkstra Algorithm can only handle positives.
From [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellman%E2%80%93Ford_algorithm)
>
> However, Dijkstra's algorithm greedily selects the minimum-weight node
> that has not yet been processed, and performs this relaxation process
> on all of its outgoing edges; in contrast, the Bellman–Ford algorithm
> simply relaxes all the edges, and does this |V | − 1 times, where |V |
> is the number of vertices in the graph. In each of these repetitions,
> the number of vertices with correctly calculated distances grows, from
> which it follows that eventually all vertices will have their correct
> distances. **This method allows the Bellman–Ford algorithm to be applied
> to a wider class of inputs than Dijkstra.**
>
>
>
Dijkstra is however generally considered better in the absence of negative weight edges, as a typical binary heap priority queue implementation has O((|E|+|V|)log|V|) time complexity [A Fibonacci heap priority queue gives O(|V|log|V| + |E|)], while the Bellman-Ford algorithm has O(|V||E|) complexity | | Bellman Ford’s Algorithm | Dijkstra’s Algorithm |
| --- | --- |
| Bellman Ford’s Algorithm works when there is a negative weight edge, it also detects the negative weight cycle. | Dijkstra’s Algorithm may or may not work when there is a negative weight edge. But will definitely not work when there is a negative weight cycle. |
| The result contains the vertices which contain the information about the other vertices they are connected to. | The result contains the vertices containing whole information about the network, not only the vertices they are connected to. |
| It can easily be implemented in a distributed way. | It can not be implemented easily in a distributed way. |
| It is more time-consuming than Dijkstra’s algorithm. Its time complexity is O(VE). | It is less time-consuming. The time complexity is O(E logV). |
| Dynamic Programming approach is taken to implement the algorithm. | Greedy approach is taken to implement the algorithm. |
| Bellman Ford’s Algorithm has more overheads than Dijkstra’s Algorithm. | Dijkstra’s Algorithm has less overheads than Bellman Ford’s Algorithm. |
| Bellman Ford’s Algorithm has less scalability than Dijkstra’s Algorithm. | Dijkstra’s Algorithm has more scalability than Bellman Ford’s Algorithm. |
Source [1](https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/what-are-the-differences-between-bellman-fords-and-dijkstras-algorithms/) |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | In a normal introduction to algorithm class, you will learn that the only difference between Dijkstra and Bell-man Ford, is that the latter works for negative edges at the cost of more computation time. The discussion on time complexity is already give in the accepted answer.
However I want to emphasize and add a bit more to @Halberdier's answer that in a distributed system, Bellman-Ford is implemented EVEN WHEN ALL EDGES ARE Positive. This is because in a Bellman-Ford algorithm, the entity S does not need to know every weight of every edge in the graph to compute the shortest distance to T - it only needs to know the shortest distance for all neighbors of S to T, plus the weight of S to all its neighbors.
A typical application of such algorithm is in Computer Networking, where you need to find the shortest route between two routers. Dijkstra is implemented in a centralized manner called link state Routing, while
Bellman-Ford allows each router to update themselves asynchronously, called distance-vector routing.
I believe no one explains better than Jim Kurose, the author of <Computer Network, a top-down approach>. See his youtube videos below.
Link State routing:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdh2kfgxVuw&list=TLPQMTIwNjIwMjLtHllygYsxMg&index=3>
Distance Vector routing:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJU2AVX6gpU&list=TLPQMTIwNjIwMjLtHllygYsxMg&index=4> | | Bellman Ford’s Algorithm | Dijkstra’s Algorithm |
| --- | --- |
| Bellman Ford’s Algorithm works when there is a negative weight edge, it also detects the negative weight cycle. | Dijkstra’s Algorithm may or may not work when there is a negative weight edge. But will definitely not work when there is a negative weight cycle. |
| The result contains the vertices which contain the information about the other vertices they are connected to. | The result contains the vertices containing whole information about the network, not only the vertices they are connected to. |
| It can easily be implemented in a distributed way. | It can not be implemented easily in a distributed way. |
| It is more time-consuming than Dijkstra’s algorithm. Its time complexity is O(VE). | It is less time-consuming. The time complexity is O(E logV). |
| Dynamic Programming approach is taken to implement the algorithm. | Greedy approach is taken to implement the algorithm. |
| Bellman Ford’s Algorithm has more overheads than Dijkstra’s Algorithm. | Dijkstra’s Algorithm has less overheads than Bellman Ford’s Algorithm. |
| Bellman Ford’s Algorithm has less scalability than Dijkstra’s Algorithm. | Dijkstra’s Algorithm has more scalability than Bellman Ford’s Algorithm. |
Source [1](https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/what-are-the-differences-between-bellman-fords-and-dijkstras-algorithms/) |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | Bellman-Ford algorithm is a single-source shortest path algorithm, so when you have negative edge weight then it can detect negative cycles in a graph.
The only difference between the two is that Bellman-Ford is also capable of handling negative weights whereas Dijkstra Algorithm can only handle positives.
From [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellman%E2%80%93Ford_algorithm)
>
> However, Dijkstra's algorithm greedily selects the minimum-weight node
> that has not yet been processed, and performs this relaxation process
> on all of its outgoing edges; in contrast, the Bellman–Ford algorithm
> simply relaxes all the edges, and does this |V | − 1 times, where |V |
> is the number of vertices in the graph. In each of these repetitions,
> the number of vertices with correctly calculated distances grows, from
> which it follows that eventually all vertices will have their correct
> distances. **This method allows the Bellman–Ford algorithm to be applied
> to a wider class of inputs than Dijkstra.**
>
>
>
Dijkstra is however generally considered better in the absence of negative weight edges, as a typical binary heap priority queue implementation has O((|E|+|V|)log|V|) time complexity [A Fibonacci heap priority queue gives O(|V|log|V| + |E|)], while the Bellman-Ford algorithm has O(|V||E|) complexity | In a normal introduction to algorithm class, you will learn that the only difference between Dijkstra and Bell-man Ford, is that the latter works for negative edges at the cost of more computation time. The discussion on time complexity is already give in the accepted answer.
However I want to emphasize and add a bit more to @Halberdier's answer that in a distributed system, Bellman-Ford is implemented EVEN WHEN ALL EDGES ARE Positive. This is because in a Bellman-Ford algorithm, the entity S does not need to know every weight of every edge in the graph to compute the shortest distance to T - it only needs to know the shortest distance for all neighbors of S to T, plus the weight of S to all its neighbors.
A typical application of such algorithm is in Computer Networking, where you need to find the shortest route between two routers. Dijkstra is implemented in a centralized manner called link state Routing, while
Bellman-Ford allows each router to update themselves asynchronously, called distance-vector routing.
I believe no one explains better than Jim Kurose, the author of <Computer Network, a top-down approach>. See his youtube videos below.
Link State routing:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdh2kfgxVuw&list=TLPQMTIwNjIwMjLtHllygYsxMg&index=3>
Distance Vector routing:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJU2AVX6gpU&list=TLPQMTIwNjIwMjLtHllygYsxMg&index=4> |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | As already stated in the chosen answer, Bellman-Ford performs the check on all the vertices, Dijkstra only on the one with the best distance calculated so far. Again already noted, this improves the complexity of the Dijkstra approach, however it requires to compare all the vertices to find out the minimum distance value. Being this not necessary in the Bellman-Ford, it is easier to implement in a distributed environment. That's why it is used in Distance Vector routing protocols (e.g., RIP and IGRP), where mostly local information is used. To use Dijkstra in routing protocols, instead, it is necessary first to distribute the entire topology, and this is what happens in Link State protocols, such as OSPF and ISIS. | There are 4 major difference among them I know:-
1. bellman time complexity is O(VE) and Dijkstra Algo has O(ElogV)in case of maxheap is used.
2. Bellman does relaxation for n-1 times and Dijkstra Algo only 1 time.
3. Bellman can handle negative weights but Dijkstra Algo can't.
4. Bellman visit a vertex more then once but Dijkstra Algo only once. |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | The only difference is that Dijkstra's algorithm cannot handle negative edge weights which Bellman-ford handles.And bellman-ford also tells us whether the graph contains negative cycle.
If graph doesn't contain negative edges then Dijkstra's is always better.
An efficient alternative for Bellman-ford is Directed Acyclic Graph (DAG) which uses topological sorting.
<http://www.geeksforgeeks.org/shortest-path-for-directed-acyclic-graphs/> | **Dijkstra Algo**
Dijkstra algo is not capable to differentiate between ***Negative edge weight cycle*** is present in graph or not
**1. Positive edge weight:-** Dijkstra **always** **PASS** if all edge weight in a graph is positive
**2. Negative edge wt. and No -ve edge wt. cycle:-** Dijkstra **always** **PASS** even if we have some edges weight as Negative but NO cycle/loop in graph having negative edge weight.
[i.e No Negative edge weight cycle is present]
**3. Negative edge wt. and -ve edge wt. cycle:-** Dijkstra **may** **PASS/FAIL** even if we have some edges weight as negative along with cycle/loop in graph having negative edge weight. |
19,482,317 | After a lot of Googling, I've found that most sources say that the Dijkstra algorithm is "more efficient" than the Bellman-Ford algorithm. But under what circumstances is the Bellman-Ford algorithm better than the Dijkstra algorithm?
I know "better" is a broad statement, so specifically I mean in terms of speed and also space if that applies. Surely there is some situation in which the Bellman-Ford approach is better than the Dijkstra approach. | 2013/10/20 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/19482317",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/2318338/"
] | There are 4 major difference among them I know:-
1. bellman time complexity is O(VE) and Dijkstra Algo has O(ElogV)in case of maxheap is used.
2. Bellman does relaxation for n-1 times and Dijkstra Algo only 1 time.
3. Bellman can handle negative weights but Dijkstra Algo can't.
4. Bellman visit a vertex more then once but Dijkstra Algo only once. | In a normal introduction to algorithm class, you will learn that the only difference between Dijkstra and Bell-man Ford, is that the latter works for negative edges at the cost of more computation time. The discussion on time complexity is already give in the accepted answer.
However I want to emphasize and add a bit more to @Halberdier's answer that in a distributed system, Bellman-Ford is implemented EVEN WHEN ALL EDGES ARE Positive. This is because in a Bellman-Ford algorithm, the entity S does not need to know every weight of every edge in the graph to compute the shortest distance to T - it only needs to know the shortest distance for all neighbors of S to T, plus the weight of S to all its neighbors.
A typical application of such algorithm is in Computer Networking, where you need to find the shortest route between two routers. Dijkstra is implemented in a centralized manner called link state Routing, while
Bellman-Ford allows each router to update themselves asynchronously, called distance-vector routing.
I believe no one explains better than Jim Kurose, the author of <Computer Network, a top-down approach>. See his youtube videos below.
Link State routing:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdh2kfgxVuw&list=TLPQMTIwNjIwMjLtHllygYsxMg&index=3>
Distance Vector routing:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJU2AVX6gpU&list=TLPQMTIwNjIwMjLtHllygYsxMg&index=4> |
13,922,748 | Recline.js seems a great tool to display data on grids, maps, etc.
I'd like to use the grid views, but to be able to save what is displayed to the user on a database. I'm currently using rails for this project.
In the docs, they say how to code a backend to integrate with it (http://okfnlabs.org/recline/docs/backends.html) but i wonder if there's already someone working on it ( I couldn't find it on the web)
Thanks | 2012/12/17 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/13922748",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/1278979/"
] | The `Backend` object in Recline.js a javascript component that talks to a data source of some kind, typically a web service. The Backend component talks to the interface of that web service, and it doesn't care whether it be programmed in Ruby, COBOL or Java, as long as it knows where to get and send the data, and in what format.
So in short there isn't, and can't really be a ready Rails backend, because the implementation depends more on the specifics of your application -- how to map the data in your database (MySQL?) to a service API Recline can understand, and vice versa. | You can use SOLR with Rails, so I dont know why you couldn't utilize the Recline.js SOLR functionality to search your rails data. |
42,304 | Ok so I got as far as getting the colors I want, and making them gradient. Now my question is how do I get the colors to wrap around a circle mesh like the rings around a planet? Im guessing it has something to do with mapping? | 2015/11/30 | [
"https://blender.stackexchange.com/questions/42304",
"https://blender.stackexchange.com",
"https://blender.stackexchange.com/users/18600/"
] | In cycles
=========
use a gradient texture using a quadratic sphere as the color style blending.
[enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/chZU9.png)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Blender Internal
================
Use quadratic sphere for the blend and sphere for the projection:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/0WkZr.png) | **In Cycles**
A rings texture can be generated using color ramps and object coordinates.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rf0Sk.png)
This texture was generated using this node setup.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/cBE0Z.png)
The key idea is to use one coordinate axis and a color ramp to cycle through the different bands.
---
For rings about the planet, you can convert the object x-y coordinate into a radius using sqrt(x^2+y^2) and a color ramp.
The geometry is a sphere and filled in circle for the rings.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/8uF2Z.png)
The node setup for the texture converts the x-y coordinates into a radius, then uses the radius to lookup the color. Also, alpha can be set in the color ramp to make the rings transparent in spots and near the planet.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/r2LGl.png)
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/VqCXJ.png)
Adding a transparent color to the color ramp, puts gaps in the rings.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/71MQW.png) |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Since age accuracy is not very important, you may want to consider the following layout.
I am assuming multi-device experience and I am assuming you want to support ages over 100 (if not, you can remove the last selector).
**Key points:**
1. A drop down of 100+ elements is tough to navigate and select, you have to be precise with your scrolling
2. A slider - same concept, it's might be difficult to select accurate year also a slider may imply that someone will die at a predefined point (which I am sure you don't want to imply and you don't want that point to be around 100 - 150, even if thats the truth)
3. If you want more accurate understanding of the age, you could ask an optional question about their zodiac sign. I believe that is not an intrusive question and is not considered sensitive PII
4. Date picker may seem like a good option however you will still ask the user to select the year they were born (a slider or a dropdown pattern is still overly complex given the range of years)
5. Third selector could activate and deactivate depending on a value you specify in the first selector.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WUJZ.png) | If you enter age keep in mind that there quite a number of countries where how old you are is counted differently.
* In the west most people are 0 at birth
* In Asia some people are 1 at birth
* Some people are 0 until Chinese New Years and they are 1.
If you aren't okay with being off by 1 year you should probably ask for a date. Or have a year slider and then propose when they were born to allow them to adjust. |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Here's my thoughts:
* Considering the fact that you want just the user's “current age” and not their “date of birth,” a **Slider** would be a much fun way to input age rather than typing.
* A **Date Picker** would be cumbersome and an overkill since you're not going for accuracy.
**Suggestion:**
What would be even more fun than a slider would be a **Wheel**. [Loop - Music Player](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/loop-music-player-by-eux/id955322495?mt=8) implements the wheel as a volume control, which works really well.
I'd imagine the number to be in the middle of the wheel and the rate of increase/decrease would be determined by the dialing speed of the wheel. To make it even more user friendly, you can make it snap around the age-range of your target users.
Having said that, a wheel will take up so much more space than a slider, so whether you use it or not would depend on what other elements you have in the screen.
Good luck! | **data for one session**
If you are going to discard the data after the session then a slider is a simple way to grab age. If you are using age groups I would recommend a more simple pattern such as radio button behaviour (but styled).
Do make sure that you can differentiate between *not answered* and a specified age (don't use 0 as a psuedo-null specially if users may be entering on behalf of a 6 month old child: equally don't use 01/01/1900 as a null value).
But if you want to use the age data in the future storing age at time of data entry is dangerous. (*Some time ago this person was 27* is useless. *On the 1/8/2016 this person was between 25 and 30* is not much better)
**age in the future**
If you want to use the age data in the future then DOB is by far the easiest model. Everyone knows theirs but many users have to think about exact age - people worry less about it after 40; just like you stopped worrying about the 1/2 and 3/4s during your teens.
Just make sure you localise for Americans and YYYY-MM-DD cultures. In limited UI's (wearables in our case) we used the YYYY-MM-DD format to avoid confusion between mm-dd and dd-mm when we did not know the locale and to minimise leap year issues for the user. |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | I eventually settled with using a NumberPicker. Attaching drafts of what I intend to use:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/nZOBM.png)
On clicking the calendar, a dialog box opens up with just the valid range of birth years:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/MHsyC.png) | **data for one session**
If you are going to discard the data after the session then a slider is a simple way to grab age. If you are using age groups I would recommend a more simple pattern such as radio button behaviour (but styled).
Do make sure that you can differentiate between *not answered* and a specified age (don't use 0 as a psuedo-null specially if users may be entering on behalf of a 6 month old child: equally don't use 01/01/1900 as a null value).
But if you want to use the age data in the future storing age at time of data entry is dangerous. (*Some time ago this person was 27* is useless. *On the 1/8/2016 this person was between 25 and 30* is not much better)
**age in the future**
If you want to use the age data in the future then DOB is by far the easiest model. Everyone knows theirs but many users have to think about exact age - people worry less about it after 40; just like you stopped worrying about the 1/2 and 3/4s during your teens.
Just make sure you localise for Americans and YYYY-MM-DD cultures. In limited UI's (wearables in our case) we used the YYYY-MM-DD format to avoid confusion between mm-dd and dd-mm when we did not know the locale and to minimise leap year issues for the user. |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Using a slider requires the user to move a pointer back and forth along the line until they get the right age. The range is probably 0-100, and depending on its length, its resolution might be tight. I could get all pedantic about switching between keyboard and mouse and supporting users who have motor-skill problems, but I won't here.
You want an easy way for users to enter their age? Give them a **text field** and have them type it in. | **Year of Born**
I would recommend a spinner with labels of "five year period", e.g. 1991 to 1995. This will
allow for the analysis of user data across several years of user entry. |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Using a slider requires the user to move a pointer back and forth along the line until they get the right age. The range is probably 0-100, and depending on its length, its resolution might be tight. I could get all pedantic about switching between keyboard and mouse and supporting users who have motor-skill problems, but I won't here.
You want an easy way for users to enter their age? Give them a **text field** and have them type it in. | Here's my thoughts:
* Considering the fact that you want just the user's “current age” and not their “date of birth,” a **Slider** would be a much fun way to input age rather than typing.
* A **Date Picker** would be cumbersome and an overkill since you're not going for accuracy.
**Suggestion:**
What would be even more fun than a slider would be a **Wheel**. [Loop - Music Player](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/loop-music-player-by-eux/id955322495?mt=8) implements the wheel as a volume control, which works really well.
I'd imagine the number to be in the middle of the wheel and the rate of increase/decrease would be determined by the dialing speed of the wheel. To make it even more user friendly, you can make it snap around the age-range of your target users.
Having said that, a wheel will take up so much more space than a slider, so whether you use it or not would depend on what other elements you have in the screen.
Good luck! |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Using a slider requires the user to move a pointer back and forth along the line until they get the right age. The range is probably 0-100, and depending on its length, its resolution might be tight. I could get all pedantic about switching between keyboard and mouse and supporting users who have motor-skill problems, but I won't here.
You want an easy way for users to enter their age? Give them a **text field** and have them type it in. | A standard date-picker is cumbersome, as you note, because you have to click backwards through years or get a gigantic dropdown with 100 options. It also assumes you care about what day of the week that date was on 30 years ago.
I had to tackle this problem a while back and came up with this solution:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/mfCFd.png)
My approach is outlined at <http://www.ericstoltz.com/2015/03/03/happy-birth-date-to-you/> |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Using a slider requires the user to move a pointer back and forth along the line until they get the right age. The range is probably 0-100, and depending on its length, its resolution might be tight. I could get all pedantic about switching between keyboard and mouse and supporting users who have motor-skill problems, but I won't here.
You want an easy way for users to enter their age? Give them a **text field** and have them type it in. | If you enter age keep in mind that there quite a number of countries where how old you are is counted differently.
* In the west most people are 0 at birth
* In Asia some people are 1 at birth
* Some people are 0 until Chinese New Years and they are 1.
If you aren't okay with being off by 1 year you should probably ask for a date. Or have a year slider and then propose when they were born to allow them to adjust. |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | A standard date-picker is cumbersome, as you note, because you have to click backwards through years or get a gigantic dropdown with 100 options. It also assumes you care about what day of the week that date was on 30 years ago.
I had to tackle this problem a while back and came up with this solution:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/mfCFd.png)
My approach is outlined at <http://www.ericstoltz.com/2015/03/03/happy-birth-date-to-you/> | I eventually settled with using a NumberPicker. Attaching drafts of what I intend to use:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/nZOBM.png)
On clicking the calendar, a dialog box opens up with just the valid range of birth years:
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/MHsyC.png) |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Since age accuracy is not very important, you may want to consider the following layout.
I am assuming multi-device experience and I am assuming you want to support ages over 100 (if not, you can remove the last selector).
**Key points:**
1. A drop down of 100+ elements is tough to navigate and select, you have to be precise with your scrolling
2. A slider - same concept, it's might be difficult to select accurate year also a slider may imply that someone will die at a predefined point (which I am sure you don't want to imply and you don't want that point to be around 100 - 150, even if thats the truth)
3. If you want more accurate understanding of the age, you could ask an optional question about their zodiac sign. I believe that is not an intrusive question and is not considered sensitive PII
4. Date picker may seem like a good option however you will still ask the user to select the year they were born (a slider or a dropdown pattern is still overly complex given the range of years)
5. Third selector could activate and deactivate depending on a value you specify in the first selector.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WUJZ.png) | **Year of Born**
I would recommend a spinner with labels of "five year period", e.g. 1991 to 1995. This will
allow for the analysis of user data across several years of user entry. |
85,914 | I am making a health and fitness app and I want to know the age of the user using the app. What will be the best way to go about this?
Currently I am debating between using a slider to select the **age** or just a date-picker to choose a **date of birth**. I like the slider option because, personally, I find choosing a date through a normal date-picker very cumbersome. However, I haven’t seen many apps use a slider to select age.
Not sure which one to go with, any tips? I am obviously open to any other creative and ideas that allow the user to input their age in an easy manner. | 2015/10/18 | [
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/85914",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com",
"https://ux.stackexchange.com/users/74436/"
] | Using a slider requires the user to move a pointer back and forth along the line until they get the right age. The range is probably 0-100, and depending on its length, its resolution might be tight. I could get all pedantic about switching between keyboard and mouse and supporting users who have motor-skill problems, but I won't here.
You want an easy way for users to enter their age? Give them a **text field** and have them type it in. | **data for one session**
If you are going to discard the data after the session then a slider is a simple way to grab age. If you are using age groups I would recommend a more simple pattern such as radio button behaviour (but styled).
Do make sure that you can differentiate between *not answered* and a specified age (don't use 0 as a psuedo-null specially if users may be entering on behalf of a 6 month old child: equally don't use 01/01/1900 as a null value).
But if you want to use the age data in the future storing age at time of data entry is dangerous. (*Some time ago this person was 27* is useless. *On the 1/8/2016 this person was between 25 and 30* is not much better)
**age in the future**
If you want to use the age data in the future then DOB is by far the easiest model. Everyone knows theirs but many users have to think about exact age - people worry less about it after 40; just like you stopped worrying about the 1/2 and 3/4s during your teens.
Just make sure you localise for Americans and YYYY-MM-DD cultures. In limited UI's (wearables in our case) we used the YYYY-MM-DD format to avoid confusion between mm-dd and dd-mm when we did not know the locale and to minimise leap year issues for the user. |
494 | I was just browsing area51 and just happened to see the metrics (that are tracked by SO) for our proposal as of today. See the image below. Looks like we are doing fine:
**Updated Stats as of Oct 20 (In particular see the rep metrics)**
 | 2010/10/12 | [
"https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/494",
"https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com/users/-1/"
] | Hmm, I have noticed that there is a lot of people near 200 rep that have given some very good answers that I missed to upvote [-; | Fresh news about the site launch -- 90 days means nothing. We will be taken into account in more-less random time, yet faster the more Excellent marks we will manage to get.
Probably the rule of thumb is that the reputation spectrum of users must be suited to survive high (SO-like, see for instance [NTI faq](https://webapps.stackexchange.com/faq) for details) reputation thresholds. |
494 | I was just browsing area51 and just happened to see the metrics (that are tracked by SO) for our proposal as of today. See the image below. Looks like we are doing fine:
**Updated Stats as of Oct 20 (In particular see the rep metrics)**
 | 2010/10/12 | [
"https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/494",
"https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com/users/-1/"
] | And we have some problems with Google traffic; from unseen moderators' source of ultimate knowledge:
We can fix it by posting few (even trivial) questions that are possibly something that (real) people are typing in Google and trying to answer them in a novel and useful way (i.e. not Wikipedia link). | Fresh news about the site launch -- 90 days means nothing. We will be taken into account in more-less random time, yet faster the more Excellent marks we will manage to get.
Probably the rule of thumb is that the reputation spectrum of users must be suited to survive high (SO-like, see for instance [NTI faq](https://webapps.stackexchange.com/faq) for details) reputation thresholds. |
337,313 | When moving my .Net Compact Framework application to the SD-card of a Windows CE device, the program executes slower then running it from the internal memory.
I thought, the start-up might be slower, but it is the whole program. There is no IO to the storage card.
Why is my application so slow and how does the compact framework handles and loads the assemblies? | 2008/12/03 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/337313",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/42832/"
] | It has to do with demand-paging. Your app cannot be run directly from the SD-card, as SD is not executable media so it has to be pulled into RAM to run. Windows CE doesn't typically have a whole lot of RAM, so the loader doesn't pull your entire application into RAM to run. Sure, your heaps and stacks will be in RAM, but the actual IL code in the assembly itself is paged in as needed. It's also paged out when the system decides it no longer needs a specific page.
This paging can have an impact on performance, though I'm a bit surprised that it's a large impact unless the app itself is really large (like if you have lots of embedded resources that it's pulling out of the assembly). | I agree with the previous "demand-paging" answer by ctacke.
**A solution** you might try is to execute a loader program from the SD-card that copies your actual executable and DLLs from card to hard disk, and then execute your program from the loader. In subsequent executions the loader can detect if the hard disk version is up to date, and if so just launch it directly. If the hard disk version is not up to date, the loader will again copy out-of-date files from card and then execute the actual program.
I have done this before from a program loaded at a remote network location, and it worked very well. |
337,313 | When moving my .Net Compact Framework application to the SD-card of a Windows CE device, the program executes slower then running it from the internal memory.
I thought, the start-up might be slower, but it is the whole program. There is no IO to the storage card.
Why is my application so slow and how does the compact framework handles and loads the assemblies? | 2008/12/03 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/337313",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/42832/"
] | It has to do with demand-paging. Your app cannot be run directly from the SD-card, as SD is not executable media so it has to be pulled into RAM to run. Windows CE doesn't typically have a whole lot of RAM, so the loader doesn't pull your entire application into RAM to run. Sure, your heaps and stacks will be in RAM, but the actual IL code in the assembly itself is paged in as needed. It's also paged out when the system decides it no longer needs a specific page.
This paging can have an impact on performance, though I'm a bit surprised that it's a large impact unless the app itself is really large (like if you have lots of embedded resources that it's pulling out of the assembly). | Some device will crash your program if application is on sd-card. It happens while suspend-power-on device. |
337,313 | When moving my .Net Compact Framework application to the SD-card of a Windows CE device, the program executes slower then running it from the internal memory.
I thought, the start-up might be slower, but it is the whole program. There is no IO to the storage card.
Why is my application so slow and how does the compact framework handles and loads the assemblies? | 2008/12/03 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/337313",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/42832/"
] | I agree with the previous "demand-paging" answer by ctacke.
**A solution** you might try is to execute a loader program from the SD-card that copies your actual executable and DLLs from card to hard disk, and then execute your program from the loader. In subsequent executions the loader can detect if the hard disk version is up to date, and if so just launch it directly. If the hard disk version is not up to date, the loader will again copy out-of-date files from card and then execute the actual program.
I have done this before from a program loaded at a remote network location, and it worked very well. | Some device will crash your program if application is on sd-card. It happens while suspend-power-on device. |
66,911 | Some atheists (or any explicit denier of Christian truth) claim that their disbelief in Christianity is an honest one, viz. if they had put their faith in Christ they would be lying to themselves and to others. Therefore, they believe they are being more honest to disbelieve.
**If an honest disbelieving soul such as this actually exists, what do the various Christian traditions teach about the fate of such a soul?** I'm particularly interested in traditions such as:
* Roman Catholicism
* Reformed
* Evangelical
* Orthodox
* And variations within these traditions
No need to be comprehensive. If you have relevant information about one or two of these traditions please share. | 2018/11/01 | [
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/66911",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/users/16611/"
] | According to Christian perspectives you mentioned, a person who claims that Jesus Christ was not in any way divine, and that his death was not spiritually meaningful in any way cannot enter into the Body of Christ, Community of Saints, or the Kingdom of God.
Consider the following soteriological perspectives,
Salvation by faith: regardless of other principles or teaching, most self proclaimed adherents to mainstream Christian religions require that a person acknowledges that they believe in the resurrection of Christ and some of its consequences.
Repentance from Sin: While most Christian groups acknowledge that salvation is by faith alone (Reformed, Evangelical, Catholic), some acknowledge that a person should have a life after conversion in which their behavior is altogether different than that of their pre-conversion life.
Decisionalism: Yet other Christian groups, and some of those also mentioned, teach that a person must make a conscious decision to follow Jesus, and that each should be able to point to a moment of realization of the truth and salvation.
Lordship: Others yet claim that Salvation comes when people turn their lives over to Christ, as their Lord and Master.
Sanctification: If a person obtains justification from sin by their sanctification, a person must become holy by living a biblically driven life, their sins being forgiven because of their dedication to godliness.
If an atheist does not fall into any of these categories, most of the Christian groups that operate according to any one of these doctrines, including the Reformed, Evangelical, Catholic, or Orthodox churches, as well as others like Mormonism, would not include such a person among those who, according to many of these groups, will continue to live eternally in communion with God. | My church is in the Free Methodist denomination, which (out of the categories you list) would best be characterized as "Evangelical." The short blunt answer is that such a person would be condemned:
>
> Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
> stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
> God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the
> world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds
> were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come
> into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever
> lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen
> plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
>
>
> (John 3:18-21)
>
>
>
On the human level we tend to value honesty and sincerity as innately virtuous things, so it's easy to look on an "honest atheist" and feel some level of respect -- and then to feel it unfair that God would condemn such a person. But that's the human level of thinking. We forget two things:
1. Honesty and sincerity are morally neutral, not innately virtuous. A
person for example can be honestly and sincerely selfish,
proclaiming without shame "I'm in this for me, myself & I." Or a
person can be honestly and sincerely racist... or honestly and
sincerely a bully... etc.
2. People are endlessly deceptive not only toward each other, but even
to themselves, about their motives. "I was just trying to be nice
and stop her from tripping," said the teenage boy who grabbed hold
of a pretty girl at school -- and maybe he even believes it himself.
The same applies to the hypothetical "honest atheist."
Deep down, **why** does this person disbelieve? Is it because he's
examined the evidence with a careful eye? Has he examined any
evidence at all? Or does he simply reject the idea of a God who
could validly claim 'ownership' over himself and try to run his life
for him? Does he have private vices that he simply refuses to give up
no matter what? |
66,911 | Some atheists (or any explicit denier of Christian truth) claim that their disbelief in Christianity is an honest one, viz. if they had put their faith in Christ they would be lying to themselves and to others. Therefore, they believe they are being more honest to disbelieve.
**If an honest disbelieving soul such as this actually exists, what do the various Christian traditions teach about the fate of such a soul?** I'm particularly interested in traditions such as:
* Roman Catholicism
* Reformed
* Evangelical
* Orthodox
* And variations within these traditions
No need to be comprehensive. If you have relevant information about one or two of these traditions please share. | 2018/11/01 | [
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/66911",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/users/16611/"
] | I would study how each denomination interprets this passage of John 10:
>
> 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you
> keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus
> answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I
> do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not
> believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 **My sheep hear my voice, and I
> know them, and they follow me**. 28 I give them eternal life, and they
> will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My
> Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one
> is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father
> are one.”
>
>
>
The disagreements are over how a person becomes one of God's sheep (election or free will). The agreement is that the sheep recognize their shepherd's voice. Failure to recognize the voice of Jesus is the defining mark of a person who is not one of Jesus' sheep. To a sheep, it is a self-authenticating recognition of the identity of the savior. If you hear his voice and recognize it, then to say you do not recognize it is to lie and be dishonest. If you do not recognize the voice, then you are not one of the sheep, but instead one of the goats. The goats in Jesus' other parable are decidedly not honest. | My church is in the Free Methodist denomination, which (out of the categories you list) would best be characterized as "Evangelical." The short blunt answer is that such a person would be condemned:
>
> Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
> stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
> God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the
> world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds
> were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come
> into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever
> lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen
> plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
>
>
> (John 3:18-21)
>
>
>
On the human level we tend to value honesty and sincerity as innately virtuous things, so it's easy to look on an "honest atheist" and feel some level of respect -- and then to feel it unfair that God would condemn such a person. But that's the human level of thinking. We forget two things:
1. Honesty and sincerity are morally neutral, not innately virtuous. A
person for example can be honestly and sincerely selfish,
proclaiming without shame "I'm in this for me, myself & I." Or a
person can be honestly and sincerely racist... or honestly and
sincerely a bully... etc.
2. People are endlessly deceptive not only toward each other, but even
to themselves, about their motives. "I was just trying to be nice
and stop her from tripping," said the teenage boy who grabbed hold
of a pretty girl at school -- and maybe he even believes it himself.
The same applies to the hypothetical "honest atheist."
Deep down, **why** does this person disbelieve? Is it because he's
examined the evidence with a careful eye? Has he examined any
evidence at all? Or does he simply reject the idea of a God who
could validly claim 'ownership' over himself and try to run his life
for him? Does he have private vices that he simply refuses to give up
no matter what? |
66,911 | Some atheists (or any explicit denier of Christian truth) claim that their disbelief in Christianity is an honest one, viz. if they had put their faith in Christ they would be lying to themselves and to others. Therefore, they believe they are being more honest to disbelieve.
**If an honest disbelieving soul such as this actually exists, what do the various Christian traditions teach about the fate of such a soul?** I'm particularly interested in traditions such as:
* Roman Catholicism
* Reformed
* Evangelical
* Orthodox
* And variations within these traditions
No need to be comprehensive. If you have relevant information about one or two of these traditions please share. | 2018/11/01 | [
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/66911",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/users/16611/"
] | You have asked about the fate of a soul that has "honest disbelief". I don't know what it means for disbelief to be "honest". I doubt you will find the above traditions addressing such a concept. However, you also describe the person in question as an "explicit denier of Christian truth". According to Scripture, such people do not have eternal life:
Luke 10:15-17: And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
John 12:48-50: The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment — what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.
1 John 2:22-25: Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us — eternal life.
Perhaps in speaking of "honest disbelief", what you are trying to get at is the fact that some people, presented with Christian truth, simply find themselves *unable* to believe and trust Jesus to save them. We cannot force ourselves to believe what we do not believe, and no one can trust Jesus to save them without first believing they need saving and that he is able to save them. Then, perhaps you are thinking that, this being so, how can God hold unbelievers accountable? Paul responds to essentially that question in Romans 9, especially verse 19 and following. The answer is *not* that they are not held accountable for their unbelief. If that were so, Paul's answer to the question, "Why does he still find fault?" would be quite different.
If you are such a person and you a feeling a desire to believe yet feel unable to believe, it may be God is working on you. To such a person, I would say, call on God for mercy and pray for faith - ask, seek, knock and it will be opened to you (Luke 11:9-13). | My church is in the Free Methodist denomination, which (out of the categories you list) would best be characterized as "Evangelical." The short blunt answer is that such a person would be condemned:
>
> Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
> stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
> God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the
> world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds
> were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come
> into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever
> lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen
> plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
>
>
> (John 3:18-21)
>
>
>
On the human level we tend to value honesty and sincerity as innately virtuous things, so it's easy to look on an "honest atheist" and feel some level of respect -- and then to feel it unfair that God would condemn such a person. But that's the human level of thinking. We forget two things:
1. Honesty and sincerity are morally neutral, not innately virtuous. A
person for example can be honestly and sincerely selfish,
proclaiming without shame "I'm in this for me, myself & I." Or a
person can be honestly and sincerely racist... or honestly and
sincerely a bully... etc.
2. People are endlessly deceptive not only toward each other, but even
to themselves, about their motives. "I was just trying to be nice
and stop her from tripping," said the teenage boy who grabbed hold
of a pretty girl at school -- and maybe he even believes it himself.
The same applies to the hypothetical "honest atheist."
Deep down, **why** does this person disbelieve? Is it because he's
examined the evidence with a careful eye? Has he examined any
evidence at all? Or does he simply reject the idea of a God who
could validly claim 'ownership' over himself and try to run his life
for him? Does he have private vices that he simply refuses to give up
no matter what? |
66,911 | Some atheists (or any explicit denier of Christian truth) claim that their disbelief in Christianity is an honest one, viz. if they had put their faith in Christ they would be lying to themselves and to others. Therefore, they believe they are being more honest to disbelieve.
**If an honest disbelieving soul such as this actually exists, what do the various Christian traditions teach about the fate of such a soul?** I'm particularly interested in traditions such as:
* Roman Catholicism
* Reformed
* Evangelical
* Orthodox
* And variations within these traditions
No need to be comprehensive. If you have relevant information about one or two of these traditions please share. | 2018/11/01 | [
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/66911",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com",
"https://christianity.stackexchange.com/users/16611/"
] | As far as I am aware, both Evangelical and Reformed Christians believe what the Bible says in John 3:18:
>
> Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)
>
>
>
Basically, there are only two groups - those who have been saved by coming to faith in Christ Jesus, and the unsaved.
The Evangelical and Reformed churches I have attended do not promote the idea of universal salvation. Salvation is all about faith. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, and that is the sin of unbelief.
The Evangelical Alliance (U.K.) makes these unambiguous declarations:
>
> The justification of sinners solely by the grace of God through faith in Christ.
>
>
> The personal and visible return of Jesus Christ to fulfil the purposes of God, who will raise all people to judgement, bring eternal life to the redeemed and eternal condemnation to the lost, and establish a new heaven and new earth.
>
>
>
Source: <https://www.eauk.org/about-us/basis-of-faith> | My church is in the Free Methodist denomination, which (out of the categories you list) would best be characterized as "Evangelical." The short blunt answer is that such a person would be condemned:
>
> Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
> stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
> God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the
> world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds
> were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come
> into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever
> lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen
> plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
>
>
> (John 3:18-21)
>
>
>
On the human level we tend to value honesty and sincerity as innately virtuous things, so it's easy to look on an "honest atheist" and feel some level of respect -- and then to feel it unfair that God would condemn such a person. But that's the human level of thinking. We forget two things:
1. Honesty and sincerity are morally neutral, not innately virtuous. A
person for example can be honestly and sincerely selfish,
proclaiming without shame "I'm in this for me, myself & I." Or a
person can be honestly and sincerely racist... or honestly and
sincerely a bully... etc.
2. People are endlessly deceptive not only toward each other, but even
to themselves, about their motives. "I was just trying to be nice
and stop her from tripping," said the teenage boy who grabbed hold
of a pretty girl at school -- and maybe he even believes it himself.
The same applies to the hypothetical "honest atheist."
Deep down, **why** does this person disbelieve? Is it because he's
examined the evidence with a careful eye? Has he examined any
evidence at all? Or does he simply reject the idea of a God who
could validly claim 'ownership' over himself and try to run his life
for him? Does he have private vices that he simply refuses to give up
no matter what? |
36,706 | I was rather old before I realized "gauge" is pronounced (and sometimes spelt) "gage". The [etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gauge&searchmode=none) doesn't reveal too much:
>
> mid-15c., from Anglo-Fr. gauge (mid-14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauger, from gauge "gauging rod,"
> perhaps from Frank. galgo "rod, pole for measuring" (cf. O.N. gelgja "pole, perch," O.H.G.
> galgo, English gallows) ... The figurative use is from 1580s. As a noun, "fixed standard of measure," early 15c. (surname Gageman is early 14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauge "gauging rod." Meaning "instrument for measuring" is from 1680s.
>
>
>
Is it just a quirk, or is there a deeper reason? | 2011/08/04 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36706",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/10041/"
] | That's a hard one. I'll list here what I can say about it so far, but I don't have any single definite source.
You provided the relevant etymonline link for the English etymology. I will add that dictionaries list *gage* as a possible alternative spelling of *gauge*.
The Middle English *gauge* comes from the Old French *gauge* (n.) /*gauger* (v.), which correspond to the Modern French *jauge* / *jauger*. In turn, none of my French dictionaries has a definite etymology for *gauge*. The [Littré](https://web.archive.org/web/20100527063025/http://francois.gannaz.free.fr:80/Littre/accueil.php) says (translated and heavily summarized):
>
> Could come from Latin *aequalificare* or *qualificare*. Definitely related to (and influenced by) the Old French *jale/jalaie* (wooden measuring pail) and *gallon* (), which themselves come from a series of Late Latin roots including *galida* (from Latin *galletum*). Also related to the German *eichen*.
>
>
>
So, it is seen that *gauge*, at the time it was imported from Old French into Middle English, coexisted with a lot of words of similar meaning and close spelling. Thus, probably *gauge* took its writing from *gauge* and its pronunciation from a mixture of those words (*gauge*, *jale*, *gallon*).
---
Regarding the issue of whether the initial consonant is a soft or hard *g*, it is funny enough to note that while the English word, with it hard *g*, comes from the Old French (which had soft *g*), the Modern French uses *gauge* as a nautical term, imported from the English, with its hard initial *g*. | To add, more of a comment that was posted in the wrong place (edited, still can't delete); this is heavily on other topics.
It might be like the word "colonel", where the modern English term is pronounced "CUR-nul", taking from old French versions "coronel" and "coronella", but where the word in writing takes after the earlier Italian form "colonella".
"Gage" also derives from French. Like "colonel", the pronunciation keeps to the historical French while the spelling suggests it should be otherwise.
A factor in the non-literal reading of such words might be regional and colloquial pronunciations tending to change over time. It may be similar to the way some people (or the majority of people in some social or geographical enclaves) pronounce "aunt" as "ant".
I also think to my theory of pronunciation and spelling of British English becoming corrupted and evolving to better fit modern usage after English-speakers migrated from Europe to America; the different dialects and ways of word enunciation heard in U.S. could be imagined that they morphed from British accents, even though they sound very different. |
36,706 | I was rather old before I realized "gauge" is pronounced (and sometimes spelt) "gage". The [etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gauge&searchmode=none) doesn't reveal too much:
>
> mid-15c., from Anglo-Fr. gauge (mid-14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauger, from gauge "gauging rod,"
> perhaps from Frank. galgo "rod, pole for measuring" (cf. O.N. gelgja "pole, perch," O.H.G.
> galgo, English gallows) ... The figurative use is from 1580s. As a noun, "fixed standard of measure," early 15c. (surname Gageman is early 14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauge "gauging rod." Meaning "instrument for measuring" is from 1680s.
>
>
>
Is it just a quirk, or is there a deeper reason? | 2011/08/04 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36706",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/10041/"
] | That's a hard one. I'll list here what I can say about it so far, but I don't have any single definite source.
You provided the relevant etymonline link for the English etymology. I will add that dictionaries list *gage* as a possible alternative spelling of *gauge*.
The Middle English *gauge* comes from the Old French *gauge* (n.) /*gauger* (v.), which correspond to the Modern French *jauge* / *jauger*. In turn, none of my French dictionaries has a definite etymology for *gauge*. The [Littré](https://web.archive.org/web/20100527063025/http://francois.gannaz.free.fr:80/Littre/accueil.php) says (translated and heavily summarized):
>
> Could come from Latin *aequalificare* or *qualificare*. Definitely related to (and influenced by) the Old French *jale/jalaie* (wooden measuring pail) and *gallon* (), which themselves come from a series of Late Latin roots including *galida* (from Latin *galletum*). Also related to the German *eichen*.
>
>
>
So, it is seen that *gauge*, at the time it was imported from Old French into Middle English, coexisted with a lot of words of similar meaning and close spelling. Thus, probably *gauge* took its writing from *gauge* and its pronunciation from a mixture of those words (*gauge*, *jale*, *gallon*).
---
Regarding the issue of whether the initial consonant is a soft or hard *g*, it is funny enough to note that while the English word, with it hard *g*, comes from the Old French (which had soft *g*), the Modern French uses *gauge* as a nautical term, imported from the English, with its hard initial *g*. | Well, some people pronounce "aunt" as "aint", so there may be some forcing together of two formerly separated sounds in French that occurred after the words were borrowed — just a guess: the original sounds in Old French might provide a guide. |
36,706 | I was rather old before I realized "gauge" is pronounced (and sometimes spelt) "gage". The [etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gauge&searchmode=none) doesn't reveal too much:
>
> mid-15c., from Anglo-Fr. gauge (mid-14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauger, from gauge "gauging rod,"
> perhaps from Frank. galgo "rod, pole for measuring" (cf. O.N. gelgja "pole, perch," O.H.G.
> galgo, English gallows) ... The figurative use is from 1580s. As a noun, "fixed standard of measure," early 15c. (surname Gageman is early 14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauge "gauging rod." Meaning "instrument for measuring" is from 1680s.
>
>
>
Is it just a quirk, or is there a deeper reason? | 2011/08/04 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36706",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/10041/"
] | That's a hard one. I'll list here what I can say about it so far, but I don't have any single definite source.
You provided the relevant etymonline link for the English etymology. I will add that dictionaries list *gage* as a possible alternative spelling of *gauge*.
The Middle English *gauge* comes from the Old French *gauge* (n.) /*gauger* (v.), which correspond to the Modern French *jauge* / *jauger*. In turn, none of my French dictionaries has a definite etymology for *gauge*. The [Littré](https://web.archive.org/web/20100527063025/http://francois.gannaz.free.fr:80/Littre/accueil.php) says (translated and heavily summarized):
>
> Could come from Latin *aequalificare* or *qualificare*. Definitely related to (and influenced by) the Old French *jale/jalaie* (wooden measuring pail) and *gallon* (), which themselves come from a series of Late Latin roots including *galida* (from Latin *galletum*). Also related to the German *eichen*.
>
>
>
So, it is seen that *gauge*, at the time it was imported from Old French into Middle English, coexisted with a lot of words of similar meaning and close spelling. Thus, probably *gauge* took its writing from *gauge* and its pronunciation from a mixture of those words (*gauge*, *jale*, *gallon*).
---
Regarding the issue of whether the initial consonant is a soft or hard *g*, it is funny enough to note that while the English word, with it hard *g*, comes from the Old French (which had soft *g*), the Modern French uses *gauge* as a nautical term, imported from the English, with its hard initial *g*. | Frequently, the "l" in the diphtongue "al" before a consonant, or sometimes "ol", becomes an "u". This is owing to the pronunciation of those sounds, phonetical relaxing and other linguistical phenomena like these. |
36,706 | I was rather old before I realized "gauge" is pronounced (and sometimes spelt) "gage". The [etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gauge&searchmode=none) doesn't reveal too much:
>
> mid-15c., from Anglo-Fr. gauge (mid-14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauger, from gauge "gauging rod,"
> perhaps from Frank. galgo "rod, pole for measuring" (cf. O.N. gelgja "pole, perch," O.H.G.
> galgo, English gallows) ... The figurative use is from 1580s. As a noun, "fixed standard of measure," early 15c. (surname Gageman is early 14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauge "gauging rod." Meaning "instrument for measuring" is from 1680s.
>
>
>
Is it just a quirk, or is there a deeper reason? | 2011/08/04 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36706",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/10041/"
] | Well, some people pronounce "aunt" as "aint", so there may be some forcing together of two formerly separated sounds in French that occurred after the words were borrowed — just a guess: the original sounds in Old French might provide a guide. | To add, more of a comment that was posted in the wrong place (edited, still can't delete); this is heavily on other topics.
It might be like the word "colonel", where the modern English term is pronounced "CUR-nul", taking from old French versions "coronel" and "coronella", but where the word in writing takes after the earlier Italian form "colonella".
"Gage" also derives from French. Like "colonel", the pronunciation keeps to the historical French while the spelling suggests it should be otherwise.
A factor in the non-literal reading of such words might be regional and colloquial pronunciations tending to change over time. It may be similar to the way some people (or the majority of people in some social or geographical enclaves) pronounce "aunt" as "ant".
I also think to my theory of pronunciation and spelling of British English becoming corrupted and evolving to better fit modern usage after English-speakers migrated from Europe to America; the different dialects and ways of word enunciation heard in U.S. could be imagined that they morphed from British accents, even though they sound very different. |
36,706 | I was rather old before I realized "gauge" is pronounced (and sometimes spelt) "gage". The [etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gauge&searchmode=none) doesn't reveal too much:
>
> mid-15c., from Anglo-Fr. gauge (mid-14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauger, from gauge "gauging rod,"
> perhaps from Frank. galgo "rod, pole for measuring" (cf. O.N. gelgja "pole, perch," O.H.G.
> galgo, English gallows) ... The figurative use is from 1580s. As a noun, "fixed standard of measure," early 15c. (surname Gageman is early 14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauge "gauging rod." Meaning "instrument for measuring" is from 1680s.
>
>
>
Is it just a quirk, or is there a deeper reason? | 2011/08/04 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36706",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/10041/"
] | To add, more of a comment that was posted in the wrong place (edited, still can't delete); this is heavily on other topics.
It might be like the word "colonel", where the modern English term is pronounced "CUR-nul", taking from old French versions "coronel" and "coronella", but where the word in writing takes after the earlier Italian form "colonella".
"Gage" also derives from French. Like "colonel", the pronunciation keeps to the historical French while the spelling suggests it should be otherwise.
A factor in the non-literal reading of such words might be regional and colloquial pronunciations tending to change over time. It may be similar to the way some people (or the majority of people in some social or geographical enclaves) pronounce "aunt" as "ant".
I also think to my theory of pronunciation and spelling of British English becoming corrupted and evolving to better fit modern usage after English-speakers migrated from Europe to America; the different dialects and ways of word enunciation heard in U.S. could be imagined that they morphed from British accents, even though they sound very different. | Frequently, the "l" in the diphtongue "al" before a consonant, or sometimes "ol", becomes an "u". This is owing to the pronunciation of those sounds, phonetical relaxing and other linguistical phenomena like these. |
36,706 | I was rather old before I realized "gauge" is pronounced (and sometimes spelt) "gage". The [etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gauge&searchmode=none) doesn't reveal too much:
>
> mid-15c., from Anglo-Fr. gauge (mid-14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauger, from gauge "gauging rod,"
> perhaps from Frank. galgo "rod, pole for measuring" (cf. O.N. gelgja "pole, perch," O.H.G.
> galgo, English gallows) ... The figurative use is from 1580s. As a noun, "fixed standard of measure," early 15c. (surname Gageman is early 14c.), from O.N.Fr. gauge "gauging rod." Meaning "instrument for measuring" is from 1680s.
>
>
>
Is it just a quirk, or is there a deeper reason? | 2011/08/04 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/36706",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/10041/"
] | Well, some people pronounce "aunt" as "aint", so there may be some forcing together of two formerly separated sounds in French that occurred after the words were borrowed — just a guess: the original sounds in Old French might provide a guide. | Frequently, the "l" in the diphtongue "al" before a consonant, or sometimes "ol", becomes an "u". This is owing to the pronunciation of those sounds, phonetical relaxing and other linguistical phenomena like these. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | There is a [difference of opinion (Ikhtilaf)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhtilaf) in this issue. This issue is a study of its own. In order to keep my answer concise I am going to state all the different opinions and quote one ahadeeth in support for the opinion.
In general, with regard to placing the right hand upon the left, it comes from the following narration:
Qutaybah narrated to us; Abû al-Ahwas narrated to us; from Sammâk bin Harb; from Qabîsah bin Hulb; from his father [Hulb at-Tâ’î] who said,
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) used to lead us in prayer and grasp his
> left hand with his right.**(Tuhfatu-l-Ahwadhî bi Sharh Jâmi‘
> at-Tirmidhî [2/74])**
>
>
>
The people of knowledge among the companions of the prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wassalam) acted upon this hadith and there was a flexibility in this according to them.
The Maliki Madh-hab
-------------------
The Malikiyyah were of the opinion that one leaves his hands free [by his sides] in prayer (irsâl). Al-Hâfidh ibn al-Qayyim said in I‘lâm after mentioning the ahâdîth concerning placing the hands in prayer,
>
> “these narrations are contradicted by the narration of al-Qâsim from
> Mâlik that he said, ‘leaving it is more beloved to me’ and I do not
> know anything else that contradicts them.”
>
>
>
So, the Maliki madh-hab preferred the narration of al-Qasim.
However, from Imam Maalik himself there are three different opinions reported:
* One does irsâl (most famous opinion)
* That one places his hands below the chest but above the navel.
* One has a choice between placing and irsâl.
The Hanafi Madh-hab
-------------------
The madh-hab of Imam Abu Hanifah has one single opinion without contradictions - man should place his hands below the navel in prayer and the woman upon her chest.
The Shafi'i Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Shafi'i:
* One places them below the chest but above the navel
* Placing them upon the chest
* Placing them below the navel
The different opinions are because it is reported by different sources from Imam Shafi'i.
The Hanbali Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Ahmad as well:
* Placing them below the navel
* Placing them below the chest
* A choice between the above two
You should know that these differences of opinion is an issue of choice between the Imaams of Islam - May Allah have mercy upon them all. There are many narrations in this issue and due to this a difference of opinion occured and they have evidences for their stands. I am going to quote one hadeeth for each opinion.
Placing the hands below the navel
---------------------------------
The hadîth of Wâ’il bin Hujr (RA) reported by ibn Abî Shaybah, Musannaf, from Wakî‘; from Mûsâ bin ‘Umayr; from ‘Alqama bin Wa’il bin Hujr; from his father who said,
>
> ‘I saw the Prophet (SAW) placing his right hand over his left below
> the navel.’
>
>
>
Holding the hands above the navel
---------------------------------
Reported by Abû Dâwûd in his Sunan from Jarîr ad-Dabbî who said,
>
> “I saw ‘Alî grasping his left wrist with his right hand above the
> navel.”
>
>
>
Though this hadith is sahih, the action is not marfu i.e. the action is not reported from the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam).
Placing the hands upon the chest
--------------------------------
From them the hadîth of Wa’il bin Hujr who said,
>
> “I prayed with the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) and he placed his right
> hand upon his left on his chest in the prayer.”
>
>
>
Reported by ibn Khuzaymah, and this hadîth is authentic, authenticated by ibn Khuzaymah as was made clear by ibn Sayyid an-Nâs in his Sharh at-Tirmidhî
So, there is valid difference of opinion in this issue.
If you are interested in all the narrations with references and different opinions within the madh-hab, read [this treatise](http://abdurrahman.org/salah/concerningplacinghands.html). | As for the questioner, placing hands on stomach or chest is both permissible. While there is no strong hadith about exactly where on the body we should place our hands, there is strong evidence that the right hand should be placed over the left and that cant be done without placing the hands together so logically it should be somewhere on the upper body.
>
> It was narrated that Sahl ibn Sa’d said: The people were commanded to
> put the right hand over the left forearm when praying.
>
>
> Abu Haazim said: I only know that this is attributed to the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). (Narrated by al-Bukhaari,
> 707).
>
>
> “[The Prophet] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to
> place his right hand on his left hand.” (Narrated by Muslim, 401).
>
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
> passed by a man who was praying, and who had placed his left hand on
> his right hand. He grabbed his arms and put his right hand on his
> left.” (Ahmad, no. 12671)
>
>
>
So placing them on the chest or stomach isent something for us to argue over, place them either on the chest or on the stomach, it doesnt matter as long as your right hand is above the left. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | There is a [difference of opinion (Ikhtilaf)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhtilaf) in this issue. This issue is a study of its own. In order to keep my answer concise I am going to state all the different opinions and quote one ahadeeth in support for the opinion.
In general, with regard to placing the right hand upon the left, it comes from the following narration:
Qutaybah narrated to us; Abû al-Ahwas narrated to us; from Sammâk bin Harb; from Qabîsah bin Hulb; from his father [Hulb at-Tâ’î] who said,
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) used to lead us in prayer and grasp his
> left hand with his right.**(Tuhfatu-l-Ahwadhî bi Sharh Jâmi‘
> at-Tirmidhî [2/74])**
>
>
>
The people of knowledge among the companions of the prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wassalam) acted upon this hadith and there was a flexibility in this according to them.
The Maliki Madh-hab
-------------------
The Malikiyyah were of the opinion that one leaves his hands free [by his sides] in prayer (irsâl). Al-Hâfidh ibn al-Qayyim said in I‘lâm after mentioning the ahâdîth concerning placing the hands in prayer,
>
> “these narrations are contradicted by the narration of al-Qâsim from
> Mâlik that he said, ‘leaving it is more beloved to me’ and I do not
> know anything else that contradicts them.”
>
>
>
So, the Maliki madh-hab preferred the narration of al-Qasim.
However, from Imam Maalik himself there are three different opinions reported:
* One does irsâl (most famous opinion)
* That one places his hands below the chest but above the navel.
* One has a choice between placing and irsâl.
The Hanafi Madh-hab
-------------------
The madh-hab of Imam Abu Hanifah has one single opinion without contradictions - man should place his hands below the navel in prayer and the woman upon her chest.
The Shafi'i Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Shafi'i:
* One places them below the chest but above the navel
* Placing them upon the chest
* Placing them below the navel
The different opinions are because it is reported by different sources from Imam Shafi'i.
The Hanbali Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Ahmad as well:
* Placing them below the navel
* Placing them below the chest
* A choice between the above two
You should know that these differences of opinion is an issue of choice between the Imaams of Islam - May Allah have mercy upon them all. There are many narrations in this issue and due to this a difference of opinion occured and they have evidences for their stands. I am going to quote one hadeeth for each opinion.
Placing the hands below the navel
---------------------------------
The hadîth of Wâ’il bin Hujr (RA) reported by ibn Abî Shaybah, Musannaf, from Wakî‘; from Mûsâ bin ‘Umayr; from ‘Alqama bin Wa’il bin Hujr; from his father who said,
>
> ‘I saw the Prophet (SAW) placing his right hand over his left below
> the navel.’
>
>
>
Holding the hands above the navel
---------------------------------
Reported by Abû Dâwûd in his Sunan from Jarîr ad-Dabbî who said,
>
> “I saw ‘Alî grasping his left wrist with his right hand above the
> navel.”
>
>
>
Though this hadith is sahih, the action is not marfu i.e. the action is not reported from the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam).
Placing the hands upon the chest
--------------------------------
From them the hadîth of Wa’il bin Hujr who said,
>
> “I prayed with the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) and he placed his right
> hand upon his left on his chest in the prayer.”
>
>
>
Reported by ibn Khuzaymah, and this hadîth is authentic, authenticated by ibn Khuzaymah as was made clear by ibn Sayyid an-Nâs in his Sharh at-Tirmidhî
So, there is valid difference of opinion in this issue.
If you are interested in all the narrations with references and different opinions within the madh-hab, read [this treatise](http://abdurrahman.org/salah/concerningplacinghands.html). | Differences can come when different people follow different Ahadith, of which there are inauthentic one. For that reasons the Imams of Islam stressed the importance of finding, accepting and following of authentic Ahadeeth. Coming to your question, the correct place of the hands in Salat is on the chest, for that is where the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) placed his hands during the salat, and he ordered us to pray as he was seen praying. Placing the hands on the chest in salat was also the teaching of the previous Prophet's (May peace be upon them), as well as the placing of the hands on the chest in salat, is what was ordered:
>
> كَانَ النَّاسُ يُؤْمَرُونَ أَنْ يَضَعَ الرَّجُلُ الْيَدَ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى ذِرَاعِهِ الْيُسْرَى فِي الصَّلاَةِ
>
>
> The people were ordered to place the right hand on the left forearm in
> the prayer
>
>
>
[Bukari](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/10/134)
Furthermore, the Ahadith which say to place the hands in a place other then the chest, are inauthentic, some are weak while others are fabricated. May Allah grant us understanding of our religion, and may He guide us all. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | There is a [difference of opinion (Ikhtilaf)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhtilaf) in this issue. This issue is a study of its own. In order to keep my answer concise I am going to state all the different opinions and quote one ahadeeth in support for the opinion.
In general, with regard to placing the right hand upon the left, it comes from the following narration:
Qutaybah narrated to us; Abû al-Ahwas narrated to us; from Sammâk bin Harb; from Qabîsah bin Hulb; from his father [Hulb at-Tâ’î] who said,
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) used to lead us in prayer and grasp his
> left hand with his right.**(Tuhfatu-l-Ahwadhî bi Sharh Jâmi‘
> at-Tirmidhî [2/74])**
>
>
>
The people of knowledge among the companions of the prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wassalam) acted upon this hadith and there was a flexibility in this according to them.
The Maliki Madh-hab
-------------------
The Malikiyyah were of the opinion that one leaves his hands free [by his sides] in prayer (irsâl). Al-Hâfidh ibn al-Qayyim said in I‘lâm after mentioning the ahâdîth concerning placing the hands in prayer,
>
> “these narrations are contradicted by the narration of al-Qâsim from
> Mâlik that he said, ‘leaving it is more beloved to me’ and I do not
> know anything else that contradicts them.”
>
>
>
So, the Maliki madh-hab preferred the narration of al-Qasim.
However, from Imam Maalik himself there are three different opinions reported:
* One does irsâl (most famous opinion)
* That one places his hands below the chest but above the navel.
* One has a choice between placing and irsâl.
The Hanafi Madh-hab
-------------------
The madh-hab of Imam Abu Hanifah has one single opinion without contradictions - man should place his hands below the navel in prayer and the woman upon her chest.
The Shafi'i Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Shafi'i:
* One places them below the chest but above the navel
* Placing them upon the chest
* Placing them below the navel
The different opinions are because it is reported by different sources from Imam Shafi'i.
The Hanbali Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Ahmad as well:
* Placing them below the navel
* Placing them below the chest
* A choice between the above two
You should know that these differences of opinion is an issue of choice between the Imaams of Islam - May Allah have mercy upon them all. There are many narrations in this issue and due to this a difference of opinion occured and they have evidences for their stands. I am going to quote one hadeeth for each opinion.
Placing the hands below the navel
---------------------------------
The hadîth of Wâ’il bin Hujr (RA) reported by ibn Abî Shaybah, Musannaf, from Wakî‘; from Mûsâ bin ‘Umayr; from ‘Alqama bin Wa’il bin Hujr; from his father who said,
>
> ‘I saw the Prophet (SAW) placing his right hand over his left below
> the navel.’
>
>
>
Holding the hands above the navel
---------------------------------
Reported by Abû Dâwûd in his Sunan from Jarîr ad-Dabbî who said,
>
> “I saw ‘Alî grasping his left wrist with his right hand above the
> navel.”
>
>
>
Though this hadith is sahih, the action is not marfu i.e. the action is not reported from the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam).
Placing the hands upon the chest
--------------------------------
From them the hadîth of Wa’il bin Hujr who said,
>
> “I prayed with the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) and he placed his right
> hand upon his left on his chest in the prayer.”
>
>
>
Reported by ibn Khuzaymah, and this hadîth is authentic, authenticated by ibn Khuzaymah as was made clear by ibn Sayyid an-Nâs in his Sharh at-Tirmidhî
So, there is valid difference of opinion in this issue.
If you are interested in all the narrations with references and different opinions within the madh-hab, read [this treatise](http://abdurrahman.org/salah/concerningplacinghands.html). | According to Hanbali school one should put your hands below the navel which is also the same in the Hanafi school. So two, out of the four of the great Imams, have said to put them below the navel.
My opinion is that to putting them below the navel wouldn't be wrong, but one can choose to put them above the navel or on the chest. One should know that none of the four Imams said that the hands should be on the chest as their first opinion. Only Shafi stated that in his second opinion and Hanafi stated that only for the women.
I have even read Shia hadeeth which says that Ali prayed with his hands on the sides but when he was standing in the prayer for long he used to put them below the navel.
I think it is easiest and most comfortable to put them below the navel. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | There is a [difference of opinion (Ikhtilaf)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhtilaf) in this issue. This issue is a study of its own. In order to keep my answer concise I am going to state all the different opinions and quote one ahadeeth in support for the opinion.
In general, with regard to placing the right hand upon the left, it comes from the following narration:
Qutaybah narrated to us; Abû al-Ahwas narrated to us; from Sammâk bin Harb; from Qabîsah bin Hulb; from his father [Hulb at-Tâ’î] who said,
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) used to lead us in prayer and grasp his
> left hand with his right.**(Tuhfatu-l-Ahwadhî bi Sharh Jâmi‘
> at-Tirmidhî [2/74])**
>
>
>
The people of knowledge among the companions of the prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wassalam) acted upon this hadith and there was a flexibility in this according to them.
The Maliki Madh-hab
-------------------
The Malikiyyah were of the opinion that one leaves his hands free [by his sides] in prayer (irsâl). Al-Hâfidh ibn al-Qayyim said in I‘lâm after mentioning the ahâdîth concerning placing the hands in prayer,
>
> “these narrations are contradicted by the narration of al-Qâsim from
> Mâlik that he said, ‘leaving it is more beloved to me’ and I do not
> know anything else that contradicts them.”
>
>
>
So, the Maliki madh-hab preferred the narration of al-Qasim.
However, from Imam Maalik himself there are three different opinions reported:
* One does irsâl (most famous opinion)
* That one places his hands below the chest but above the navel.
* One has a choice between placing and irsâl.
The Hanafi Madh-hab
-------------------
The madh-hab of Imam Abu Hanifah has one single opinion without contradictions - man should place his hands below the navel in prayer and the woman upon her chest.
The Shafi'i Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Shafi'i:
* One places them below the chest but above the navel
* Placing them upon the chest
* Placing them below the navel
The different opinions are because it is reported by different sources from Imam Shafi'i.
The Hanbali Madh-hab
--------------------
There are three reports from Imam Ahmad as well:
* Placing them below the navel
* Placing them below the chest
* A choice between the above two
You should know that these differences of opinion is an issue of choice between the Imaams of Islam - May Allah have mercy upon them all. There are many narrations in this issue and due to this a difference of opinion occured and they have evidences for their stands. I am going to quote one hadeeth for each opinion.
Placing the hands below the navel
---------------------------------
The hadîth of Wâ’il bin Hujr (RA) reported by ibn Abî Shaybah, Musannaf, from Wakî‘; from Mûsâ bin ‘Umayr; from ‘Alqama bin Wa’il bin Hujr; from his father who said,
>
> ‘I saw the Prophet (SAW) placing his right hand over his left below
> the navel.’
>
>
>
Holding the hands above the navel
---------------------------------
Reported by Abû Dâwûd in his Sunan from Jarîr ad-Dabbî who said,
>
> “I saw ‘Alî grasping his left wrist with his right hand above the
> navel.”
>
>
>
Though this hadith is sahih, the action is not marfu i.e. the action is not reported from the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam).
Placing the hands upon the chest
--------------------------------
From them the hadîth of Wa’il bin Hujr who said,
>
> “I prayed with the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) and he placed his right
> hand upon his left on his chest in the prayer.”
>
>
>
Reported by ibn Khuzaymah, and this hadîth is authentic, authenticated by ibn Khuzaymah as was made clear by ibn Sayyid an-Nâs in his Sharh at-Tirmidhî
So, there is valid difference of opinion in this issue.
If you are interested in all the narrations with references and different opinions within the madh-hab, read [this treatise](http://abdurrahman.org/salah/concerningplacinghands.html). | The holy prophet(SAW) placed his arms on the chest but most people's opinions are to place the arm below the navel.
I will give the hadith of placing arms on chest later inshallah. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | As for the questioner, placing hands on stomach or chest is both permissible. While there is no strong hadith about exactly where on the body we should place our hands, there is strong evidence that the right hand should be placed over the left and that cant be done without placing the hands together so logically it should be somewhere on the upper body.
>
> It was narrated that Sahl ibn Sa’d said: The people were commanded to
> put the right hand over the left forearm when praying.
>
>
> Abu Haazim said: I only know that this is attributed to the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). (Narrated by al-Bukhaari,
> 707).
>
>
> “[The Prophet] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to
> place his right hand on his left hand.” (Narrated by Muslim, 401).
>
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
> passed by a man who was praying, and who had placed his left hand on
> his right hand. He grabbed his arms and put his right hand on his
> left.” (Ahmad, no. 12671)
>
>
>
So placing them on the chest or stomach isent something for us to argue over, place them either on the chest or on the stomach, it doesnt matter as long as your right hand is above the left. | Differences can come when different people follow different Ahadith, of which there are inauthentic one. For that reasons the Imams of Islam stressed the importance of finding, accepting and following of authentic Ahadeeth. Coming to your question, the correct place of the hands in Salat is on the chest, for that is where the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) placed his hands during the salat, and he ordered us to pray as he was seen praying. Placing the hands on the chest in salat was also the teaching of the previous Prophet's (May peace be upon them), as well as the placing of the hands on the chest in salat, is what was ordered:
>
> كَانَ النَّاسُ يُؤْمَرُونَ أَنْ يَضَعَ الرَّجُلُ الْيَدَ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى ذِرَاعِهِ الْيُسْرَى فِي الصَّلاَةِ
>
>
> The people were ordered to place the right hand on the left forearm in
> the prayer
>
>
>
[Bukari](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/10/134)
Furthermore, the Ahadith which say to place the hands in a place other then the chest, are inauthentic, some are weak while others are fabricated. May Allah grant us understanding of our religion, and may He guide us all. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | As for the questioner, placing hands on stomach or chest is both permissible. While there is no strong hadith about exactly where on the body we should place our hands, there is strong evidence that the right hand should be placed over the left and that cant be done without placing the hands together so logically it should be somewhere on the upper body.
>
> It was narrated that Sahl ibn Sa’d said: The people were commanded to
> put the right hand over the left forearm when praying.
>
>
> Abu Haazim said: I only know that this is attributed to the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). (Narrated by al-Bukhaari,
> 707).
>
>
> “[The Prophet] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to
> place his right hand on his left hand.” (Narrated by Muslim, 401).
>
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
> passed by a man who was praying, and who had placed his left hand on
> his right hand. He grabbed his arms and put his right hand on his
> left.” (Ahmad, no. 12671)
>
>
>
So placing them on the chest or stomach isent something for us to argue over, place them either on the chest or on the stomach, it doesnt matter as long as your right hand is above the left. | According to Hanbali school one should put your hands below the navel which is also the same in the Hanafi school. So two, out of the four of the great Imams, have said to put them below the navel.
My opinion is that to putting them below the navel wouldn't be wrong, but one can choose to put them above the navel or on the chest. One should know that none of the four Imams said that the hands should be on the chest as their first opinion. Only Shafi stated that in his second opinion and Hanafi stated that only for the women.
I have even read Shia hadeeth which says that Ali prayed with his hands on the sides but when he was standing in the prayer for long he used to put them below the navel.
I think it is easiest and most comfortable to put them below the navel. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | As for the questioner, placing hands on stomach or chest is both permissible. While there is no strong hadith about exactly where on the body we should place our hands, there is strong evidence that the right hand should be placed over the left and that cant be done without placing the hands together so logically it should be somewhere on the upper body.
>
> It was narrated that Sahl ibn Sa’d said: The people were commanded to
> put the right hand over the left forearm when praying.
>
>
> Abu Haazim said: I only know that this is attributed to the Prophet
> (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). (Narrated by al-Bukhaari,
> 707).
>
>
> “[The Prophet] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to
> place his right hand on his left hand.” (Narrated by Muslim, 401).
>
>
> The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
> passed by a man who was praying, and who had placed his left hand on
> his right hand. He grabbed his arms and put his right hand on his
> left.” (Ahmad, no. 12671)
>
>
>
So placing them on the chest or stomach isent something for us to argue over, place them either on the chest or on the stomach, it doesnt matter as long as your right hand is above the left. | The holy prophet(SAW) placed his arms on the chest but most people's opinions are to place the arm below the navel.
I will give the hadith of placing arms on chest later inshallah. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | Differences can come when different people follow different Ahadith, of which there are inauthentic one. For that reasons the Imams of Islam stressed the importance of finding, accepting and following of authentic Ahadeeth. Coming to your question, the correct place of the hands in Salat is on the chest, for that is where the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) placed his hands during the salat, and he ordered us to pray as he was seen praying. Placing the hands on the chest in salat was also the teaching of the previous Prophet's (May peace be upon them), as well as the placing of the hands on the chest in salat, is what was ordered:
>
> كَانَ النَّاسُ يُؤْمَرُونَ أَنْ يَضَعَ الرَّجُلُ الْيَدَ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى ذِرَاعِهِ الْيُسْرَى فِي الصَّلاَةِ
>
>
> The people were ordered to place the right hand on the left forearm in
> the prayer
>
>
>
[Bukari](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/10/134)
Furthermore, the Ahadith which say to place the hands in a place other then the chest, are inauthentic, some are weak while others are fabricated. May Allah grant us understanding of our religion, and may He guide us all. | According to Hanbali school one should put your hands below the navel which is also the same in the Hanafi school. So two, out of the four of the great Imams, have said to put them below the navel.
My opinion is that to putting them below the navel wouldn't be wrong, but one can choose to put them above the navel or on the chest. One should know that none of the four Imams said that the hands should be on the chest as their first opinion. Only Shafi stated that in his second opinion and Hanafi stated that only for the women.
I have even read Shia hadeeth which says that Ali prayed with his hands on the sides but when he was standing in the prayer for long he used to put them below the navel.
I think it is easiest and most comfortable to put them below the navel. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | Differences can come when different people follow different Ahadith, of which there are inauthentic one. For that reasons the Imams of Islam stressed the importance of finding, accepting and following of authentic Ahadeeth. Coming to your question, the correct place of the hands in Salat is on the chest, for that is where the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) placed his hands during the salat, and he ordered us to pray as he was seen praying. Placing the hands on the chest in salat was also the teaching of the previous Prophet's (May peace be upon them), as well as the placing of the hands on the chest in salat, is what was ordered:
>
> كَانَ النَّاسُ يُؤْمَرُونَ أَنْ يَضَعَ الرَّجُلُ الْيَدَ الْيُمْنَى عَلَى ذِرَاعِهِ الْيُسْرَى فِي الصَّلاَةِ
>
>
> The people were ordered to place the right hand on the left forearm in
> the prayer
>
>
>
[Bukari](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/10/134)
Furthermore, the Ahadith which say to place the hands in a place other then the chest, are inauthentic, some are weak while others are fabricated. May Allah grant us understanding of our religion, and may He guide us all. | The holy prophet(SAW) placed his arms on the chest but most people's opinions are to place the arm below the navel.
I will give the hadith of placing arms on chest later inshallah. |
2,498 | I've notice a few people (men) at the mosque put their hands on the chest while praying *salat*.
However, I also see that the majority of Indian and Pakistani people put their hands on their stomach while praying *salat*.
Why is there such a difference in style? I am less interested in the rulings according to any *particular* school, rather I am looking for a general Sunni perspective on this issue. | 2012/09/08 | [
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/2498",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com",
"https://islam.stackexchange.com/users/521/"
] | According to Hanbali school one should put your hands below the navel which is also the same in the Hanafi school. So two, out of the four of the great Imams, have said to put them below the navel.
My opinion is that to putting them below the navel wouldn't be wrong, but one can choose to put them above the navel or on the chest. One should know that none of the four Imams said that the hands should be on the chest as their first opinion. Only Shafi stated that in his second opinion and Hanafi stated that only for the women.
I have even read Shia hadeeth which says that Ali prayed with his hands on the sides but when he was standing in the prayer for long he used to put them below the navel.
I think it is easiest and most comfortable to put them below the navel. | The holy prophet(SAW) placed his arms on the chest but most people's opinions are to place the arm below the navel.
I will give the hadith of placing arms on chest later inshallah. |
602,084 | I have a table containing cycling data. Date, distance, time, calories burned, max heart rate and average heart rate. They all have different value ranges. Excel scales the chart to show the calories column correctly, but for example, the time line isn't even visible in that range.
The chart should present that with practice the heart rate drops as well as time and calories burned because you get into better shape.
How do I get them their own Y-axis labels to make it readable?
 | 2013/05/31 | [
"https://superuser.com/questions/602084",
"https://superuser.com",
"https://superuser.com/users/140548/"
] | You've got a couple different things making this difficult for you.
1. The most obvious, is how Excel handles times. Since you're talking about hours and have your time formatted as time, Excel is reading this as a fraction of a day. In Excel, dates are handled as serial numbers, with a single day having the value 1. So an hour has a value of .0416... This means any time value is going to be interpreted/graphed as a small decimal. So, you'll either need to accomodate their small values, or convert the hours/minutes to a integer/decimal value yourself (e.g. 00:54:05 (hh:mm:ss) = 0.0376 (Excel serial) = 0.9014 (hours)).
2. The other problem is what your question centers around, and it's Excel behaving properly (believe it or not). Since the values of your categories Distance, Duration, Energy and Heart Rate all have different units, graphing them on a single axis will lead to the distortions you noted. Adding a second axis (as pnuts accurately described) doesn't really help your situation, other than allowing a second "scale" to be superimposed on your first. However, a second (or third or fourth) scale doesn't solve the problem that your putting disparate units on a chart in the same "space" (vertical area of the plot area).
So, what to do? You have three options to get what you're looking for:
1. Adopt a scale that allows all your units to be plotted in their native scale. Similar to the chart you already have, all you need to do is convert your vertical axis to a log scale. This will allow all of your values to be charted in a much more observable size, but the down side is that vertical differences will be muted at the upper end of each base.
2. Use small multiples. This allows you to create a number of charts that are identical in all aspects, except Y axis unit/scale. This will allow you to see each category in an environment accurate to it, and relatable to the others. The downside is you'll be making several (four or five) charts for the same data.
3. Normalize the data into the same unit. In your example, use the starting values (2013-06-03) as a 100% value, and convert all of your other values to a percantage of the starting value, then plot the percentages all on the same scale. The downside is you lose the original unit values.
Sample Excel file: [Multiscale Sample](https://www.dropbox.com/s/mwtldykolkuuyfn/MultiScales.xlsm) | You can add a secondary Y axis as described [here](http://office.microsoft.com/en-001/word-help/add-or-remove-a-secondary-axis-in-a-chart-HP001234165.aspx):
In a chart, click the data series that you want to plot on a secondary vertical axis, or do the following to select the data series from a list of chart elements:
Click the chart.
This displays the Chart Tools, adding the Design, Layout, and Format tabs.
On the Format tab, in the Current Selection group, click the arrow in the Chart Elements box, and then click the data series that you want to plot along a secondary vertical axis.
On the Format tab, in the Current Selection group, click Format Selection.
The Format Data Series dialog box is displayed.
Note If a different dialog box is displayed, repeat step 1 and make sure that you select a data series in the chart. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | One early instance of the expression appears in "[The Easy Chair](https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114678955?searchTerm=%22a+fair+cop%22)," in the *[Echuca, Victoria & Moama, New South Wales] Riverine Herald* (June 11, 1890):
>
> "**It is a fair cop**," admitted Mr John Rose, when discovered in company with a jemmy in a house to which he had not been invited ; "but I did not mean to get into the house ; I meant the pawnshop next door." There is an engaging frankness about the explanation.
>
>
>
The British Newspaper Archive turns up an even earlier match—from "[Alleged Breach of the Licensing Act at Darlington](https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1830-01-01/1900-01-01?basicsearch=%22mau%20remarked%20that%20there%20was%20no%20use%20telling%20ahe%22&exactsearch=true&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=dayearly)," in the *Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough [Yorkshire]* (October 4, 1881) [combined snippets; the paragraph breaks shown are conjectural and almost certainly inaccurate]:
>
> Inspector Scott narrated the facts of the case; and evidence was given by P.C. Ferguson to the effect that on the morning of the day named, about ten minutes to ten, he saw some men loitering about the house. Suspecting something wrong, witness entered the house, and found a man with a pot of beer before him. Mrs Peacock came to the bar whilst witness was there, and when she saw him struck the pot of beer off the counter. The man remarked that there was no use telling a lie about it ; and when witness remarked that **it was a fair cop** Mrs Peacock appeared very much flurried.
>
>
> The defence was a total denial that the liquor in the pot was beer. Mrs Peacock deposed that the man who was alleged to have been drinking beer went in her husband's house and asked her for a pint of beer. Mrs Peacock said, Not likely, and the man then asked her for a drink of water, which she gave him. In answer to Inspector Scott, witness denied that the man gave her any money. It was true that Ferguson said to her, **This is a fair cop**, and she replied, I don't see how you can call it **a fair cop** giving a man a drink of water. The defendant also swore that the pot contained nothing but water, and his statement was corroborated by another witness, who saw the water drawn.
>
>
> Eventually, however, the Bench ordered an adjournment of the case, in order to secure the attendance of a witness whose evidence the police and the defence were anxious to obtain.
>
>
>
In each instance, the phrase "It's a fair cop" seems to mean "It is a clear case of catching [someone] in the act of doing something illegal." | I think the answer is almost exactly in the etymology you quoted from the Online Etymology Dictionary:
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
The sense of "fair" meant is "honourably, correctly".
"Cop" in the phrase "a fair cop" is a noun related to the verb "cop" quoted above. But here it's a noun meaning the *act* of "copping", rather than meaning "someone who cops" by going from "to cop" to "copper" and then abbreviating back to "cop". It's the same as the way you can have "a walk", "a run", "a punch", "a murder", etc, only we don't really use "cop" as an independent verb anymore. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | ***[Green’s Dictionary of Slang](https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/ylshtma)*** dates its usage from the late 19th century; fair in the sense of justifiable:
>
> [late 19C+] (orig. UK Und.):
>
>
> * ***a justifiable arrest***; usu. in the tongue-in-cheek phr. *it’s a fair cop guvnor, put the bracelets on...*
> * any situation seen as fair and about which there is no complaint.
>
>
>
Wiktionary cites an early usage:
>
> ***[1891](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fair_cop), Montagu Stephen Williams***, Later Leaves: Being the Further Reminiscences of Montagu Williams, Q. C., Macmillan and Co.:
>
>
> * "Several other witnesses gave corroborative evidence, and a constable who helped to arrest the prisoners stated that one of them, on being taken into custody, said: 'Ah, well, this is a fair cop.'"
>
>
>
[Little Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins](https://books.google.it/books?id=LGGCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&source=bl&ots=VNr9KzXrvG&sig=g1oTt9bu0h4HevU9TJnkCzbMwjw&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18uru4dbdAhXFGCwKHW9qDgk4FBDoATAEegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&f=false) notes that:
>
> **The verb *cop* meaning *to catch* comes from northern English dialect *cap* meaning *to capture or arrest***. This probably goes back to Latin *capere* to take or seize. So a copper was a catcher which is why it became an informal term for a police officer in the 1840s.
>
>
> ***Apprehended villains have been saying It’s a fair cop! since the 1880s***
>
>
> | I think the answer is almost exactly in the etymology you quoted from the Online Etymology Dictionary:
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
The sense of "fair" meant is "honourably, correctly".
"Cop" in the phrase "a fair cop" is a noun related to the verb "cop" quoted above. But here it's a noun meaning the *act* of "copping", rather than meaning "someone who cops" by going from "to cop" to "copper" and then abbreviating back to "cop". It's the same as the way you can have "a walk", "a run", "a punch", "a murder", etc, only we don't really use "cop" as an independent verb anymore. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "cop" in this sense means capture.
My own search of newspapers found a really early example in multiple London newspapers, the earliest version of the story being published on September 1, **1875**. A guy was caught breaking and entering and (after a chase) he was brought to the station where he said:
>
> Well, you have made a fair cop (capture) and I'll act square.
>
>
>
([Here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/MgxTa.png)'s a screenshot of the article, specifically from The Sunday Times on Sunday, September 5, 1875.)
Another early example is in the *Derby Mercury* (Derby, England), Wednesday, March 27, 1878, which describes a guy who put two fouls in his pockets and got caught. The article says he called it a "fair cop" ([here's a screenshot of the article](https://i.stack.imgur.com/vDaBt.png)).
The OED also lists an early example for "*good* cop":
>
> What do you want to search me for? You have got a good *cop*.
>
> *Sessions Paper*, 1884
>
>
>
Here's another early example for "fair cop":
>
> Prisoner remarked it was ‘a fair cop’.
>
> *The Standard*, 1889
>
>
>
The noun came from the verb:
>
> If the Cruel Stork should come, He'd Tyrannize and Cop up some [Frogs].
>
> *The Dissenting Hypocrite*, 1704
>
>
>
As for where the verb *cop* came from, the OED thinks it's "[p]erhaps a broad pronunciation of *cap*" (a now-obsolete verb meaning "arrest" that itself is "apparently [from] Old French *cape-r* [meaning] to seize"). | The etymology is simple enough but there's no reference to WHY it was used.
My understanding is that it was an expression used by petty criminals for whom arrest was an occupational hazard to be navigated with the minimum of harm to themselves. It indicated that there would be no attempt to resist arrest and that, therefore, there was no need to use violence against them. An alternative was, "I'll come quietly." |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "cop" in this sense means capture.
My own search of newspapers found a really early example in multiple London newspapers, the earliest version of the story being published on September 1, **1875**. A guy was caught breaking and entering and (after a chase) he was brought to the station where he said:
>
> Well, you have made a fair cop (capture) and I'll act square.
>
>
>
([Here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/MgxTa.png)'s a screenshot of the article, specifically from The Sunday Times on Sunday, September 5, 1875.)
Another early example is in the *Derby Mercury* (Derby, England), Wednesday, March 27, 1878, which describes a guy who put two fouls in his pockets and got caught. The article says he called it a "fair cop" ([here's a screenshot of the article](https://i.stack.imgur.com/vDaBt.png)).
The OED also lists an early example for "*good* cop":
>
> What do you want to search me for? You have got a good *cop*.
>
> *Sessions Paper*, 1884
>
>
>
Here's another early example for "fair cop":
>
> Prisoner remarked it was ‘a fair cop’.
>
> *The Standard*, 1889
>
>
>
The noun came from the verb:
>
> If the Cruel Stork should come, He'd Tyrannize and Cop up some [Frogs].
>
> *The Dissenting Hypocrite*, 1704
>
>
>
As for where the verb *cop* came from, the OED thinks it's "[p]erhaps a broad pronunciation of *cap*" (a now-obsolete verb meaning "arrest" that itself is "apparently [from] Old French *cape-r* [meaning] to seize"). | From:
[The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English](https://books.google.com/books?id=h0mcBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA192&dq=it's%20a%20fair%20cop%20dalzell&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q=it's%20a%20fair%20cop%20dalzell&f=false)
>
> **it’s a fair cop** used of a good or legal arrest; in later use, as a jocular admission of anything trivial UK, 1891
>
>
>
and
>
> **an arrest** UK, 1844 Especially familiar in the phrase IT’S A FAIR COP
>
>
>
Above are a couple of citations showing early use of the phrase, without 'guv'nor. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "cop" in this sense means capture.
My own search of newspapers found a really early example in multiple London newspapers, the earliest version of the story being published on September 1, **1875**. A guy was caught breaking and entering and (after a chase) he was brought to the station where he said:
>
> Well, you have made a fair cop (capture) and I'll act square.
>
>
>
([Here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/MgxTa.png)'s a screenshot of the article, specifically from The Sunday Times on Sunday, September 5, 1875.)
Another early example is in the *Derby Mercury* (Derby, England), Wednesday, March 27, 1878, which describes a guy who put two fouls in his pockets and got caught. The article says he called it a "fair cop" ([here's a screenshot of the article](https://i.stack.imgur.com/vDaBt.png)).
The OED also lists an early example for "*good* cop":
>
> What do you want to search me for? You have got a good *cop*.
>
> *Sessions Paper*, 1884
>
>
>
Here's another early example for "fair cop":
>
> Prisoner remarked it was ‘a fair cop’.
>
> *The Standard*, 1889
>
>
>
The noun came from the verb:
>
> If the Cruel Stork should come, He'd Tyrannize and Cop up some [Frogs].
>
> *The Dissenting Hypocrite*, 1704
>
>
>
As for where the verb *cop* came from, the OED thinks it's "[p]erhaps a broad pronunciation of *cap*" (a now-obsolete verb meaning "arrest" that itself is "apparently [from] Old French *cape-r* [meaning] to seize"). | One early instance of the expression appears in "[The Easy Chair](https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114678955?searchTerm=%22a+fair+cop%22)," in the *[Echuca, Victoria & Moama, New South Wales] Riverine Herald* (June 11, 1890):
>
> "**It is a fair cop**," admitted Mr John Rose, when discovered in company with a jemmy in a house to which he had not been invited ; "but I did not mean to get into the house ; I meant the pawnshop next door." There is an engaging frankness about the explanation.
>
>
>
The British Newspaper Archive turns up an even earlier match—from "[Alleged Breach of the Licensing Act at Darlington](https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1830-01-01/1900-01-01?basicsearch=%22mau%20remarked%20that%20there%20was%20no%20use%20telling%20ahe%22&exactsearch=true&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=dayearly)," in the *Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough [Yorkshire]* (October 4, 1881) [combined snippets; the paragraph breaks shown are conjectural and almost certainly inaccurate]:
>
> Inspector Scott narrated the facts of the case; and evidence was given by P.C. Ferguson to the effect that on the morning of the day named, about ten minutes to ten, he saw some men loitering about the house. Suspecting something wrong, witness entered the house, and found a man with a pot of beer before him. Mrs Peacock came to the bar whilst witness was there, and when she saw him struck the pot of beer off the counter. The man remarked that there was no use telling a lie about it ; and when witness remarked that **it was a fair cop** Mrs Peacock appeared very much flurried.
>
>
> The defence was a total denial that the liquor in the pot was beer. Mrs Peacock deposed that the man who was alleged to have been drinking beer went in her husband's house and asked her for a pint of beer. Mrs Peacock said, Not likely, and the man then asked her for a drink of water, which she gave him. In answer to Inspector Scott, witness denied that the man gave her any money. It was true that Ferguson said to her, **This is a fair cop**, and she replied, I don't see how you can call it **a fair cop** giving a man a drink of water. The defendant also swore that the pot contained nothing but water, and his statement was corroborated by another witness, who saw the water drawn.
>
>
> Eventually, however, the Bench ordered an adjournment of the case, in order to secure the attendance of a witness whose evidence the police and the defence were anxious to obtain.
>
>
>
In each instance, the phrase "It's a fair cop" seems to mean "It is a clear case of catching [someone] in the act of doing something illegal." |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | ***[Green’s Dictionary of Slang](https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/ylshtma)*** dates its usage from the late 19th century; fair in the sense of justifiable:
>
> [late 19C+] (orig. UK Und.):
>
>
> * ***a justifiable arrest***; usu. in the tongue-in-cheek phr. *it’s a fair cop guvnor, put the bracelets on...*
> * any situation seen as fair and about which there is no complaint.
>
>
>
Wiktionary cites an early usage:
>
> ***[1891](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fair_cop), Montagu Stephen Williams***, Later Leaves: Being the Further Reminiscences of Montagu Williams, Q. C., Macmillan and Co.:
>
>
> * "Several other witnesses gave corroborative evidence, and a constable who helped to arrest the prisoners stated that one of them, on being taken into custody, said: 'Ah, well, this is a fair cop.'"
>
>
>
[Little Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins](https://books.google.it/books?id=LGGCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&source=bl&ots=VNr9KzXrvG&sig=g1oTt9bu0h4HevU9TJnkCzbMwjw&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18uru4dbdAhXFGCwKHW9qDgk4FBDoATAEegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&f=false) notes that:
>
> **The verb *cop* meaning *to catch* comes from northern English dialect *cap* meaning *to capture or arrest***. This probably goes back to Latin *capere* to take or seize. So a copper was a catcher which is why it became an informal term for a police officer in the 1840s.
>
>
> ***Apprehended villains have been saying It’s a fair cop! since the 1880s***
>
>
> | From:
[The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English](https://books.google.com/books?id=h0mcBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA192&dq=it's%20a%20fair%20cop%20dalzell&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q=it's%20a%20fair%20cop%20dalzell&f=false)
>
> **it’s a fair cop** used of a good or legal arrest; in later use, as a jocular admission of anything trivial UK, 1891
>
>
>
and
>
> **an arrest** UK, 1844 Especially familiar in the phrase IT’S A FAIR COP
>
>
>
Above are a couple of citations showing early use of the phrase, without 'guv'nor. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | One early instance of the expression appears in "[The Easy Chair](https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114678955?searchTerm=%22a+fair+cop%22)," in the *[Echuca, Victoria & Moama, New South Wales] Riverine Herald* (June 11, 1890):
>
> "**It is a fair cop**," admitted Mr John Rose, when discovered in company with a jemmy in a house to which he had not been invited ; "but I did not mean to get into the house ; I meant the pawnshop next door." There is an engaging frankness about the explanation.
>
>
>
The British Newspaper Archive turns up an even earlier match—from "[Alleged Breach of the Licensing Act at Darlington](https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1830-01-01/1900-01-01?basicsearch=%22mau%20remarked%20that%20there%20was%20no%20use%20telling%20ahe%22&exactsearch=true&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=dayearly)," in the *Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough [Yorkshire]* (October 4, 1881) [combined snippets; the paragraph breaks shown are conjectural and almost certainly inaccurate]:
>
> Inspector Scott narrated the facts of the case; and evidence was given by P.C. Ferguson to the effect that on the morning of the day named, about ten minutes to ten, he saw some men loitering about the house. Suspecting something wrong, witness entered the house, and found a man with a pot of beer before him. Mrs Peacock came to the bar whilst witness was there, and when she saw him struck the pot of beer off the counter. The man remarked that there was no use telling a lie about it ; and when witness remarked that **it was a fair cop** Mrs Peacock appeared very much flurried.
>
>
> The defence was a total denial that the liquor in the pot was beer. Mrs Peacock deposed that the man who was alleged to have been drinking beer went in her husband's house and asked her for a pint of beer. Mrs Peacock said, Not likely, and the man then asked her for a drink of water, which she gave him. In answer to Inspector Scott, witness denied that the man gave her any money. It was true that Ferguson said to her, **This is a fair cop**, and she replied, I don't see how you can call it **a fair cop** giving a man a drink of water. The defendant also swore that the pot contained nothing but water, and his statement was corroborated by another witness, who saw the water drawn.
>
>
> Eventually, however, the Bench ordered an adjournment of the case, in order to secure the attendance of a witness whose evidence the police and the defence were anxious to obtain.
>
>
>
In each instance, the phrase "It's a fair cop" seems to mean "It is a clear case of catching [someone] in the act of doing something illegal." | From:
[The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English](https://books.google.com/books?id=h0mcBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA192&dq=it's%20a%20fair%20cop%20dalzell&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q=it's%20a%20fair%20cop%20dalzell&f=false)
>
> **it’s a fair cop** used of a good or legal arrest; in later use, as a jocular admission of anything trivial UK, 1891
>
>
>
and
>
> **an arrest** UK, 1844 Especially familiar in the phrase IT’S A FAIR COP
>
>
>
Above are a couple of citations showing early use of the phrase, without 'guv'nor. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | ***[Green’s Dictionary of Slang](https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/ylshtma)*** dates its usage from the late 19th century; fair in the sense of justifiable:
>
> [late 19C+] (orig. UK Und.):
>
>
> * ***a justifiable arrest***; usu. in the tongue-in-cheek phr. *it’s a fair cop guvnor, put the bracelets on...*
> * any situation seen as fair and about which there is no complaint.
>
>
>
Wiktionary cites an early usage:
>
> ***[1891](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fair_cop), Montagu Stephen Williams***, Later Leaves: Being the Further Reminiscences of Montagu Williams, Q. C., Macmillan and Co.:
>
>
> * "Several other witnesses gave corroborative evidence, and a constable who helped to arrest the prisoners stated that one of them, on being taken into custody, said: 'Ah, well, this is a fair cop.'"
>
>
>
[Little Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins](https://books.google.it/books?id=LGGCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&source=bl&ots=VNr9KzXrvG&sig=g1oTt9bu0h4HevU9TJnkCzbMwjw&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18uru4dbdAhXFGCwKHW9qDgk4FBDoATAEegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&f=false) notes that:
>
> **The verb *cop* meaning *to catch* comes from northern English dialect *cap* meaning *to capture or arrest***. This probably goes back to Latin *capere* to take or seize. So a copper was a catcher which is why it became an informal term for a police officer in the 1840s.
>
>
> ***Apprehended villains have been saying It’s a fair cop! since the 1880s***
>
>
> | The etymology is simple enough but there's no reference to WHY it was used.
My understanding is that it was an expression used by petty criminals for whom arrest was an occupational hazard to be navigated with the minimum of harm to themselves. It indicated that there would be no attempt to resist arrest and that, therefore, there was no need to use violence against them. An alternative was, "I'll come quietly." |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "cop" in this sense means capture.
My own search of newspapers found a really early example in multiple London newspapers, the earliest version of the story being published on September 1, **1875**. A guy was caught breaking and entering and (after a chase) he was brought to the station where he said:
>
> Well, you have made a fair cop (capture) and I'll act square.
>
>
>
([Here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/MgxTa.png)'s a screenshot of the article, specifically from The Sunday Times on Sunday, September 5, 1875.)
Another early example is in the *Derby Mercury* (Derby, England), Wednesday, March 27, 1878, which describes a guy who put two fouls in his pockets and got caught. The article says he called it a "fair cop" ([here's a screenshot of the article](https://i.stack.imgur.com/vDaBt.png)).
The OED also lists an early example for "*good* cop":
>
> What do you want to search me for? You have got a good *cop*.
>
> *Sessions Paper*, 1884
>
>
>
Here's another early example for "fair cop":
>
> Prisoner remarked it was ‘a fair cop’.
>
> *The Standard*, 1889
>
>
>
The noun came from the verb:
>
> If the Cruel Stork should come, He'd Tyrannize and Cop up some [Frogs].
>
> *The Dissenting Hypocrite*, 1704
>
>
>
As for where the verb *cop* came from, the OED thinks it's "[p]erhaps a broad pronunciation of *cap*" (a now-obsolete verb meaning "arrest" that itself is "apparently [from] Old French *cape-r* [meaning] to seize"). | I think the answer is almost exactly in the etymology you quoted from the Online Etymology Dictionary:
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
The sense of "fair" meant is "honourably, correctly".
"Cop" in the phrase "a fair cop" is a noun related to the verb "cop" quoted above. But here it's a noun meaning the *act* of "copping", rather than meaning "someone who cops" by going from "to cop" to "copper" and then abbreviating back to "cop". It's the same as the way you can have "a walk", "a run", "a punch", "a murder", etc, only we don't really use "cop" as an independent verb anymore. |
465,652 | After coming across the following questions, [**Origin of “All right, what's all this, then?!”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/368171/origin-of-all-right-whats-all-this-then) and [**Origin of “Well, well, well. What do we have here?”**](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/51604/origin-of-well-well-well-what-do-we-have-here), my curiosity was piqued to try and discover the origins of ***"it's a fair cop"***.
According to the [**Urban Dictionary**](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fair%20cop), it's
>
> a phrase roughly meaning "Eh, I guess it's fair."
>
>
>
The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English defines "[**it's a fair cop**](https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/it-s-a-fair-cop)" as
>
> British English spoken used humorously when someone has discovered that you have done something wrong and you want to admit it
>
>
>
and
>
> British English used humorously to admit that you should not be doing something that someone has caught you doing
>
>
> • It's a fair cop - honest, officer!
>
>
> • And criminals are warned that from then, they won't even have time to tell police it's a fair cop.
>
>
> • Do you want me to say that it's a fair cop or something?
>
>
>
[**TV Tropes**](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairCop) says
>
> In any given Crime and Punishment Series or film, the chances of encountering a Fair Cop are high.
>
>
> A Fair Cop is any police officer who is ridiculously attractive, ridiculously young, or both. This should not, however, carry with it assumptions that they are dumb. Call it the police version of Hot Scientist or, even closer, Good-Looking Privates. TV cops almost never have a mustache.
>
>
> The title is a play on the British and Australian expression "It's a fair cop", said when one admits having been caught fair and square. See also Firemen Are Hot and Good-Looking Privates. Cousin to Hot Men At Work.
>
>
> You are not particularly likely to see a Fair Cop in a stripper's police outfit — although you may see him or her as a Dirty Harriet, which gives a whole new meaning to the motto "To protect and to serve".
>
>
> If you're looking for a fair-minded cop, you're probably looking for Reasonable Authority Figure or maybe a By-the-Book Cop (who usually fits).
>
>
>
From a Q&A on [**worldwide words**](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fai2.htm) discussing the phrase.
>
> **Q:** ... In one of the Monty Python movies, as a woman falsely accused of being a witch is being carted off to her destiny she says under her breath, that’s a fair cop! ...
>
>
> **A:** It’s a well-understood British expression, though it has been used so often in second-rate detective stories and police television series down the decades that it has long since ceased to be possible to use it seriously (the Monty Python team was playing on its clichéd status).
>
>
> It comes from the same root as the term cop for a policeman. This may be from the slang verb cop, meaning to seize, originally a dialect term of northern England that by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through French caper to Latin capere, to seize or take, from which we also get our capture. (See also the piece on cop, a policeman.) So a cop in this sense was an example of a seizure or capture.
>
>
> It’s a fair cop was what the essentially good-natured thief with a typically British sense of fair play was supposed to say as his collar was fingered by the fuzz, meaning that the arrest was reasonable and that he really had done what he was accused of doing. You will understand that this is, and always has been, an entirely fictitious view of the relationship between British criminals and the police.
>
>
>
This answers the "cop" part, but doesn't delve into the "fair" component of the expression and the concurrent use of the words.
I understand the meanings of "fair" and "cop"! I'd like to know when and how the words came to be paired together.
Researching "fair cop" in the [**Online Etymology Dictionary**](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fair%20cop) didn't get me very far.
They provide the following
>
> **fair (adv.)**
>
>
> Old English fægere "beautifully," from fæger "beautiful" (see fair (adj.)). From c. 1300 as "honorably;" mid-14c. as "correctly; direct;" from 1510s as "clearly." Fair and square is from c. 1600. Fair-to-middling is from 1829, of livestock markets.
>
>
> **cop (n.)**
>
>
> "policeman," 1859, abbreviation (said to be originally thieves' slang) of earlier copper (n.2), which is attested from 1846, agent noun from cop (v.) "to capture or arrest as a prisoner." Cop-shop "police station" is attested from 1941. The children's game of cops and robbers is attested from 1900.
>
>
>
A user on Word Reference answering a question about a French equivalent for [**"It's a fair cop, guv'nor."**](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/its-a-fair-cop-guvnor.1563125/) suggests
>
> The phrase goes back to the 19th century. Popularized by the novel Raffles, 1899.
>
>
>
Can anyone corroborate and expand on this? | 2018/09/25 | [
"https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/465652",
"https://english.stackexchange.com",
"https://english.stackexchange.com/users/309120/"
] | ***[Green’s Dictionary of Slang](https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/ylshtma)*** dates its usage from the late 19th century; fair in the sense of justifiable:
>
> [late 19C+] (orig. UK Und.):
>
>
> * ***a justifiable arrest***; usu. in the tongue-in-cheek phr. *it’s a fair cop guvnor, put the bracelets on...*
> * any situation seen as fair and about which there is no complaint.
>
>
>
Wiktionary cites an early usage:
>
> ***[1891](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fair_cop), Montagu Stephen Williams***, Later Leaves: Being the Further Reminiscences of Montagu Williams, Q. C., Macmillan and Co.:
>
>
> * "Several other witnesses gave corroborative evidence, and a constable who helped to arrest the prisoners stated that one of them, on being taken into custody, said: 'Ah, well, this is a fair cop.'"
>
>
>
[Little Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins](https://books.google.it/books?id=LGGCBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&source=bl&ots=VNr9KzXrvG&sig=g1oTt9bu0h4HevU9TJnkCzbMwjw&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18uru4dbdAhXFGCwKHW9qDgk4FBDoATAEegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=its%20a%20fair%20cop%20origin&f=false) notes that:
>
> **The verb *cop* meaning *to catch* comes from northern English dialect *cap* meaning *to capture or arrest***. This probably goes back to Latin *capere* to take or seize. So a copper was a catcher which is why it became an informal term for a police officer in the 1840s.
>
>
> ***Apprehended villains have been saying It’s a fair cop! since the 1880s***
>
>
> | One early instance of the expression appears in "[The Easy Chair](https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114678955?searchTerm=%22a+fair+cop%22)," in the *[Echuca, Victoria & Moama, New South Wales] Riverine Herald* (June 11, 1890):
>
> "**It is a fair cop**," admitted Mr John Rose, when discovered in company with a jemmy in a house to which he had not been invited ; "but I did not mean to get into the house ; I meant the pawnshop next door." There is an engaging frankness about the explanation.
>
>
>
The British Newspaper Archive turns up an even earlier match—from "[Alleged Breach of the Licensing Act at Darlington](https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1830-01-01/1900-01-01?basicsearch=%22mau%20remarked%20that%20there%20was%20no%20use%20telling%20ahe%22&exactsearch=true&retrievecountrycounts=false&sortorder=dayearly)," in the *Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough [Yorkshire]* (October 4, 1881) [combined snippets; the paragraph breaks shown are conjectural and almost certainly inaccurate]:
>
> Inspector Scott narrated the facts of the case; and evidence was given by P.C. Ferguson to the effect that on the morning of the day named, about ten minutes to ten, he saw some men loitering about the house. Suspecting something wrong, witness entered the house, and found a man with a pot of beer before him. Mrs Peacock came to the bar whilst witness was there, and when she saw him struck the pot of beer off the counter. The man remarked that there was no use telling a lie about it ; and when witness remarked that **it was a fair cop** Mrs Peacock appeared very much flurried.
>
>
> The defence was a total denial that the liquor in the pot was beer. Mrs Peacock deposed that the man who was alleged to have been drinking beer went in her husband's house and asked her for a pint of beer. Mrs Peacock said, Not likely, and the man then asked her for a drink of water, which she gave him. In answer to Inspector Scott, witness denied that the man gave her any money. It was true that Ferguson said to her, **This is a fair cop**, and she replied, I don't see how you can call it **a fair cop** giving a man a drink of water. The defendant also swore that the pot contained nothing but water, and his statement was corroborated by another witness, who saw the water drawn.
>
>
> Eventually, however, the Bench ordered an adjournment of the case, in order to secure the attendance of a witness whose evidence the police and the defence were anxious to obtain.
>
>
>
In each instance, the phrase "It's a fair cop" seems to mean "It is a clear case of catching [someone] in the act of doing something illegal." |
83,786 | I'm making a big push for my company to start utilizing [Elmah](http://dotnetslackers.com/articles/aspnet/ErrorLoggingModulesAndHandlers.aspx) in our development and acceptance testing servers but I'm still a little bit leery about deploying it to production. My question is: Is Elmah safe to use on a production SharePoint server? Does it cause additional overhead or are there any other issues associated with it? Do any of you have experience using Elmah in a production environment? Thanks! | 2009/11/11 | [
"https://serverfault.com/questions/83786",
"https://serverfault.com",
"https://serverfault.com/users/24740/"
] | We don't have any issues with Elmah on any of our farms.
The only thing i'd bring up is please please please remember to secure your elmah installation if its going to be public facing. Depending on the verbosity of your error messages, you will likely be exposing a lot of sensitive information when exceptions are thrown. Judging by a quick google search for elmah.axd many people skip this important step...
Full instructions for securing elmah can be found at [SecuringErrorLogPages](http://code.google.com/p/elmah/wiki/SecuringErrorLogPages) | Absolutely! I know many people that add this as the first thing to any project they do, and I've used it many times myself. The overhead is not noticeable and the benefits are great. It's fully production ready and has been stable on many sites for years. Plenty of burn-in time.
I haven't run it on Sharepoint per se, but I can't imagine any issues. If there are any, they will occur immediately due to config conflict and shouldn't creep up over time, so you'll know quickly in your post deployment testing. |
13,876,856 | I'm working about one application for iOS. Application is already on App Store. But in new version, I have to remove one from Localization languages (Germany). After this, i observed very strange behaviors: When i deploy application on my phone without old version previous application, then everything is okay - if i has iOS set to Germany, application is in English. But when i deploy it when old version is already installed, then application does not show English translation, but only keys form unexisting Germany version ("terms\_header" and so...).
My question is: How application will behave, when i send new version to App Store, and users will updates their phones to new version of my application? | 2012/12/14 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/13876856",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/1009414/"
] | When you update the application on any iOS device, it's bundle resources always get updated. However you can test the scenario using
- Install old application from xcode with localization
- Test if localization is working properly
- Update application with new build from xcode
- Re-test the application by changing language.
During updates only user generated data stay intact and bundle resources get updated. | What happens if you remove the application from the organiser and then reinstall it? |
13,876,856 | I'm working about one application for iOS. Application is already on App Store. But in new version, I have to remove one from Localization languages (Germany). After this, i observed very strange behaviors: When i deploy application on my phone without old version previous application, then everything is okay - if i has iOS set to Germany, application is in English. But when i deploy it when old version is already installed, then application does not show English translation, but only keys form unexisting Germany version ("terms\_header" and so...).
My question is: How application will behave, when i send new version to App Store, and users will updates their phones to new version of my application? | 2012/12/14 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/13876856",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/1009414/"
] | Ok, i found it. There is the way to check, how application will behave when is updatet from App Store:
1. Remove application from device
2. Generate Archive from old version of your app via Xcode (Product->Archive)
3. Distribute archived application as Ad-Hoc Deployment
4. Repeat points 2 and 3. for NEW version off your application.
5. Put .ipa file with old version of your app into iTune.
6. Install it on you device via iTune and synchronize device.
7. Check old version of application on you device.
8. Put .ipa file with new version of your app into iTune.
9. Press "Update" in iTunes, and synchronize device.
10. Check new version of application on your device.
In this case, my application is works. | What happens if you remove the application from the organiser and then reinstall it? |
16,693 | I'm trying to understand how to fully understand the decision process of a decision tree classification model built with sklearn. The 2 main aspect I'm looking at are a graphviz representation of the tree and the list of feature importances. What I don't understand is how the feature importance is determined in the context of the tree. For example, here is my list of feature importances:
Feature ranking:
1. FeatureA (0.300237)
2. FeatureB (0.166800)
3. FeatureC (0.092472)
4. FeatureD (0.075009)
5. FeatureE (0.068310)
6. FeatureF (0.067118)
7. FeatureG (0.066510)
8. FeatureH (0.043502)
9. FeatureI (0.040281)
10. FeatureJ (0.039006)
11. FeatureK (0.032618)
12. FeatureL (0.008136)
13. FeatureM (0.000000)
However, when I look at the top of the tree, it looks like this:[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/yJ2xy.png)
In fact, some of the features that are ranked "most important" don't appear until much further down the tree, and the top of the tree is FeatureJ which is one of the lowest ranked features. My naive assumption would be that the most important features would be ranked near the top of the tree to have the greatest impact. If that's incorrect, then what is it that makes a feature "important"? | 2017/02/02 | [
"https://datascience.stackexchange.com/questions/16693",
"https://datascience.stackexchange.com",
"https://datascience.stackexchange.com/users/28544/"
] | Just because a node is lower on the tree does not necessarily mean that it is less important. The feature importance in sci-kitlearn is calculated by how purely a node separates the classes (Gini index). You will notice in even in your cropped tree that A is splits three times compared to J's one time and the entropy scores (a similar measure of purity as Gini) are somewhat higher in A nodes than J.
However, if you could only choose one node you would choose J because that would result in the best predictions. But if you were to have the option to have many nodes making several different decisions A would be the best choice. | Variable importance is measured by decrease in model accuracy when the variable is removed. The new decision tree created with the new model without the variable could look very different to the original tree. Splitting decision in your diagram is done while considering all variables in the model.
What variable to split at the root (and other nodes) is measured by impurity. Good purity (e.g: everything in the left branch has the same target value) is not a guarantee for good accuracy. You data might be skewed, your right branch have more responses than your left branch. Therefore, it's no good just correctly classify the left branch, we also need to consider the right branch as well. Therefore, the splitting variable might or might not be an important variable for overall model accuracy.
Variable importance is a better measure for variable selection. |
16,693 | I'm trying to understand how to fully understand the decision process of a decision tree classification model built with sklearn. The 2 main aspect I'm looking at are a graphviz representation of the tree and the list of feature importances. What I don't understand is how the feature importance is determined in the context of the tree. For example, here is my list of feature importances:
Feature ranking:
1. FeatureA (0.300237)
2. FeatureB (0.166800)
3. FeatureC (0.092472)
4. FeatureD (0.075009)
5. FeatureE (0.068310)
6. FeatureF (0.067118)
7. FeatureG (0.066510)
8. FeatureH (0.043502)
9. FeatureI (0.040281)
10. FeatureJ (0.039006)
11. FeatureK (0.032618)
12. FeatureL (0.008136)
13. FeatureM (0.000000)
However, when I look at the top of the tree, it looks like this:[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/yJ2xy.png)
In fact, some of the features that are ranked "most important" don't appear until much further down the tree, and the top of the tree is FeatureJ which is one of the lowest ranked features. My naive assumption would be that the most important features would be ranked near the top of the tree to have the greatest impact. If that's incorrect, then what is it that makes a feature "important"? | 2017/02/02 | [
"https://datascience.stackexchange.com/questions/16693",
"https://datascience.stackexchange.com",
"https://datascience.stackexchange.com/users/28544/"
] | In scikit-learn the feature importance is the decrease in node impurity. The key is that it measures the importance only at a node level. Then, all the nodes are weighted by how many samples reach that node.
So, if only a few samples end up in the left node after the first split, this might not mean that J is the most important feature because the gain on the left node might only affect very few samples. If you additionally print out the number of samples in each node you might get a better picture of what is going on. | Variable importance is measured by decrease in model accuracy when the variable is removed. The new decision tree created with the new model without the variable could look very different to the original tree. Splitting decision in your diagram is done while considering all variables in the model.
What variable to split at the root (and other nodes) is measured by impurity. Good purity (e.g: everything in the left branch has the same target value) is not a guarantee for good accuracy. You data might be skewed, your right branch have more responses than your left branch. Therefore, it's no good just correctly classify the left branch, we also need to consider the right branch as well. Therefore, the splitting variable might or might not be an important variable for overall model accuracy.
Variable importance is a better measure for variable selection. |
244,805 | Why does a rolling ball get torque from friction. I understand torque in relation to lever arms and the force being perpendicular to said arm. But what about wheels? There is no lever arm so how is torque generated? | 2016/03/22 | [
"https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/244805",
"https://physics.stackexchange.com",
"https://physics.stackexchange.com/users/37023/"
] | Viscosity is the difference. Hagen-Poisseuille thinks of the fluid as concentric cylinders dragging on one another with drag being proportional to the contact area and the relative speed.
Motion of elecrons is not *usually* like this. Electrons move as diffracting waves scattering from imperfections of the material lattice, their kinetic energy being partly absorbed by the lattice. This absorption is what gives rise to ohmic resistance. Electrons don't normally drag on one another like the fluid, so the conductance of an ohmic conductor is proportional to the cross sectional area. If you double this area, you double the possible paths.
Electrons in *some* materials do indeed behave like viscous fluids. There have to be quite unusual correlations and conditions for this to happen, but it can nonetheless. Electron viscosity is a fairly active, recent research topic. | Not much more than perhaps an analogy for circular cross sections. And the analogy can fall apart for different cross sections (consider a Venturi nozzle).
But for limited situations one could use such analogies and linear electrical circuit laws (Kirchoff's, Norton, etc.) to solve for fluid system behaviors. But beware... the analogy is limited since fluid relations can go nonlinear. The Pouiselle relation assumes steady state axi-symmetric (one -dimensional) fluid flow. And flow doesn't necessarily seem to behave the way you want it to - like creating vortices and eddies. You just don't see that happening with electrons in a copper wire! |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | The basic use of Wish is flexibility: It can duplicate *any* spell of 8th level or lower.
You don't need to have it prepared and it doesn't even need to be in your class's spell list! | In a way, it gives you *most* spells
------------------------------------
Wish can grant you the immediate use of *any* 8th level or lower spell. Rather than giving you a fixed slot, it gives you most spells from most spell lists, able to being cast without the material or preparation costs, a huge boon for more expensive spells. |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | The basic use of Wish is flexibility: It can duplicate *any* spell of 8th level or lower.
You don't need to have it prepared and it doesn't even need to be in your class's spell list! | No, a *wish* spell does not just give you another spell slot but it can
=======================================================================
As quoted, the part of the *wish* spell that duplicates spells reads (emphasis mine):
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate **any other** spell of 8th level or lower. You **don't need to meet any requirements** in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
This means that the *wish* spell has some useful advantages:
* You can use any spell, so also spells you don't know, haven't
prepared, are not on your spell list, etc.
* You do not have to meet time requirements, meaning ritual spells can
be done in an action.
* You do not have a range limit.
* You do not have to have costly material components, especially ones
that would normally be consumed. *Heroes' feast* for free, anyone?
But there is a way to get extra spell slots from *wish* as the rest of the text is:
>
> Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:
>
>
> * [list of nice relatively simple effects]
>
>
> You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
>
>
>
This means you can wish to get a number of extra permanent spell slots. You DM will probably limit that number/lvl but you can ask.
You will also suffer some side effects for any *wish* that doesn't just duplicate a lower-level spell:
>
> The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress,
>
>
> * each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way.
> * In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days.
> * Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast *wish* ever again if you suffer this stress.
>
>
> |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | The basic use of Wish is flexibility: It can duplicate *any* spell of 8th level or lower.
You don't need to have it prepared and it doesn't even need to be in your class's spell list! | No Material Components or Casting Times
=======================================
Wish allows you to cast any spell without a material component or casting time. Many lower leveled spells are balanced around their casting times.
Some examples of how this is incredibly potent:
1. Use *Wish* to cast *Planar Binding* at level 9 as an action without a material component. Any celestial, fiend, fey, or elemental that fails their save is bound to your will for a year. Better yet - use *Feeblemind* or *Portent* to guarantee a failed save, even against a demon prince (provided you burn their legendary resists).
2. Cast *Simulacrum* as an action without a costly material component. Copy all of that creature's spells and abilities (including legendary actions and legendary resists) for free. No save, no to-hit roll.
3. Up against an undead/fiend/fey/celestial army? Cast *Forbiddance* as a L9 spell to target 40,000 square feet of space (that's 8,000 squares, or basically a whole battle map). Chosen creatures take 5d10 radiant damage per round (no save), and can't teleport into the area. Lasts 1 day, no concentration.
4. Facing a Demon Lord or other nasty without access to *Dispel Magic* or teleportation? Hit them with an instant-cast *Magic Circle* for a free, concentration-less prison lasting 7 hours. No save.
5. About to die? Cast *Magic Jar* as an action to save yourself and get a new, less dead body. (And then use *Wish* to cast *Resurrection* to raise your own corpse).
6. Use an action to cast a free *Resurrection*.
7. Are you an illusionist? Use *Wish* to cast *Mirage Arcane*.You can literally tell your DM to change battle maps to anything you want as an action because you don't like this one. Does a "mountain" count as an "object" for the purpose of illusory reality? How about 1 mile high, 1 mile wide adamantium wall or an appropriately sized adamantium cage or pit?
8. Use *Creation* to create any "object" you want and make it real. Can you *Wish* to cast *Creation* as an action to make a 25\*25\*25 cube of adamantine, or dynamite, or caesium? RAW (and presumably, RAI), the answer is yes. Yes you can. And there is no restriction on using *Creation* offensively in this manner. Creation has a range of 30 feet, and can be cast "above" a target. A 25\*25\*25 cube of 24K gold (that's 15625 cubic feet) weighs 18,808,374 pounds. Whatever you hit with that is **not** getting back up. |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | There are some other benefits that aren't as obvious.
=====================================================
First of all, you gain access to many spells that are either not known/prepared or appear on other class spell lists.
Possibly more potent, however, is the removal of expensive material components and long casting times. Some spell like *resurrection*, *simulacrum*, or *temple of the gods* have much more powerful effects without their material components and casting times. You simply have to speak their effect into existence. | In a way, it gives you *most* spells
------------------------------------
Wish can grant you the immediate use of *any* 8th level or lower spell. Rather than giving you a fixed slot, it gives you most spells from most spell lists, able to being cast without the material or preparation costs, a huge boon for more expensive spells. |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | In a way, it gives you *most* spells
------------------------------------
Wish can grant you the immediate use of *any* 8th level or lower spell. Rather than giving you a fixed slot, it gives you most spells from most spell lists, able to being cast without the material or preparation costs, a huge boon for more expensive spells. | No Material Components or Casting Times
=======================================
Wish allows you to cast any spell without a material component or casting time. Many lower leveled spells are balanced around their casting times.
Some examples of how this is incredibly potent:
1. Use *Wish* to cast *Planar Binding* at level 9 as an action without a material component. Any celestial, fiend, fey, or elemental that fails their save is bound to your will for a year. Better yet - use *Feeblemind* or *Portent* to guarantee a failed save, even against a demon prince (provided you burn their legendary resists).
2. Cast *Simulacrum* as an action without a costly material component. Copy all of that creature's spells and abilities (including legendary actions and legendary resists) for free. No save, no to-hit roll.
3. Up against an undead/fiend/fey/celestial army? Cast *Forbiddance* as a L9 spell to target 40,000 square feet of space (that's 8,000 squares, or basically a whole battle map). Chosen creatures take 5d10 radiant damage per round (no save), and can't teleport into the area. Lasts 1 day, no concentration.
4. Facing a Demon Lord or other nasty without access to *Dispel Magic* or teleportation? Hit them with an instant-cast *Magic Circle* for a free, concentration-less prison lasting 7 hours. No save.
5. About to die? Cast *Magic Jar* as an action to save yourself and get a new, less dead body. (And then use *Wish* to cast *Resurrection* to raise your own corpse).
6. Use an action to cast a free *Resurrection*.
7. Are you an illusionist? Use *Wish* to cast *Mirage Arcane*.You can literally tell your DM to change battle maps to anything you want as an action because you don't like this one. Does a "mountain" count as an "object" for the purpose of illusory reality? How about 1 mile high, 1 mile wide adamantium wall or an appropriately sized adamantium cage or pit?
8. Use *Creation* to create any "object" you want and make it real. Can you *Wish* to cast *Creation* as an action to make a 25\*25\*25 cube of adamantine, or dynamite, or caesium? RAW (and presumably, RAI), the answer is yes. Yes you can. And there is no restriction on using *Creation* offensively in this manner. Creation has a range of 30 feet, and can be cast "above" a target. A 25\*25\*25 cube of 24K gold (that's 15625 cubic feet) weighs 18,808,374 pounds. Whatever you hit with that is **not** getting back up. |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | There are some other benefits that aren't as obvious.
=====================================================
First of all, you gain access to many spells that are either not known/prepared or appear on other class spell lists.
Possibly more potent, however, is the removal of expensive material components and long casting times. Some spell like *resurrection*, *simulacrum*, or *temple of the gods* have much more powerful effects without their material components and casting times. You simply have to speak their effect into existence. | No, a *wish* spell does not just give you another spell slot but it can
=======================================================================
As quoted, the part of the *wish* spell that duplicates spells reads (emphasis mine):
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate **any other** spell of 8th level or lower. You **don't need to meet any requirements** in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
This means that the *wish* spell has some useful advantages:
* You can use any spell, so also spells you don't know, haven't
prepared, are not on your spell list, etc.
* You do not have to meet time requirements, meaning ritual spells can
be done in an action.
* You do not have a range limit.
* You do not have to have costly material components, especially ones
that would normally be consumed. *Heroes' feast* for free, anyone?
But there is a way to get extra spell slots from *wish* as the rest of the text is:
>
> Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:
>
>
> * [list of nice relatively simple effects]
>
>
> You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
>
>
>
This means you can wish to get a number of extra permanent spell slots. You DM will probably limit that number/lvl but you can ask.
You will also suffer some side effects for any *wish* that doesn't just duplicate a lower-level spell:
>
> The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress,
>
>
> * each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way.
> * In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days.
> * Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast *wish* ever again if you suffer this stress.
>
>
> |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | There are some other benefits that aren't as obvious.
=====================================================
First of all, you gain access to many spells that are either not known/prepared or appear on other class spell lists.
Possibly more potent, however, is the removal of expensive material components and long casting times. Some spell like *resurrection*, *simulacrum*, or *temple of the gods* have much more powerful effects without their material components and casting times. You simply have to speak their effect into existence. | No Material Components or Casting Times
=======================================
Wish allows you to cast any spell without a material component or casting time. Many lower leveled spells are balanced around their casting times.
Some examples of how this is incredibly potent:
1. Use *Wish* to cast *Planar Binding* at level 9 as an action without a material component. Any celestial, fiend, fey, or elemental that fails their save is bound to your will for a year. Better yet - use *Feeblemind* or *Portent* to guarantee a failed save, even against a demon prince (provided you burn their legendary resists).
2. Cast *Simulacrum* as an action without a costly material component. Copy all of that creature's spells and abilities (including legendary actions and legendary resists) for free. No save, no to-hit roll.
3. Up against an undead/fiend/fey/celestial army? Cast *Forbiddance* as a L9 spell to target 40,000 square feet of space (that's 8,000 squares, or basically a whole battle map). Chosen creatures take 5d10 radiant damage per round (no save), and can't teleport into the area. Lasts 1 day, no concentration.
4. Facing a Demon Lord or other nasty without access to *Dispel Magic* or teleportation? Hit them with an instant-cast *Magic Circle* for a free, concentration-less prison lasting 7 hours. No save.
5. About to die? Cast *Magic Jar* as an action to save yourself and get a new, less dead body. (And then use *Wish* to cast *Resurrection* to raise your own corpse).
6. Use an action to cast a free *Resurrection*.
7. Are you an illusionist? Use *Wish* to cast *Mirage Arcane*.You can literally tell your DM to change battle maps to anything you want as an action because you don't like this one. Does a "mountain" count as an "object" for the purpose of illusory reality? How about 1 mile high, 1 mile wide adamantium wall or an appropriately sized adamantium cage or pit?
8. Use *Creation* to create any "object" you want and make it real. Can you *Wish* to cast *Creation* as an action to make a 25\*25\*25 cube of adamantine, or dynamite, or caesium? RAW (and presumably, RAI), the answer is yes. Yes you can. And there is no restriction on using *Creation* offensively in this manner. Creation has a range of 30 feet, and can be cast "above" a target. A 25\*25\*25 cube of 24K gold (that's 15625 cubic feet) weighs 18,808,374 pounds. Whatever you hit with that is **not** getting back up. |
133,757 | The description of the [*wish*](https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wish) spell reads:
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
(There are other specific uses listed as well, but they aren’t relative to my question.)
So if I’m reading this right, the basic use of *wish* is to give you another spell slot of level 1–8? That isn’t as powerful as I expected. Or does it maybe have extra benefits when using it to duplicate one of these spells (e.g. the effects of the spell are permanent for certain spells, such as *darkvision* or *enlarge/reduce*)? | 2018/10/16 | [
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/133757",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com",
"https://rpg.stackexchange.com/users/44979/"
] | No, a *wish* spell does not just give you another spell slot but it can
=======================================================================
As quoted, the part of the *wish* spell that duplicates spells reads (emphasis mine):
>
> The basic use of this spell is to duplicate **any other** spell of 8th level or lower. You **don't need to meet any requirements** in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.
>
>
>
This means that the *wish* spell has some useful advantages:
* You can use any spell, so also spells you don't know, haven't
prepared, are not on your spell list, etc.
* You do not have to meet time requirements, meaning ritual spells can
be done in an action.
* You do not have a range limit.
* You do not have to have costly material components, especially ones
that would normally be consumed. *Heroes' feast* for free, anyone?
But there is a way to get extra spell slots from *wish* as the rest of the text is:
>
> Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:
>
>
> * [list of nice relatively simple effects]
>
>
> You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
>
>
>
This means you can wish to get a number of extra permanent spell slots. You DM will probably limit that number/lvl but you can ask.
You will also suffer some side effects for any *wish* that doesn't just duplicate a lower-level spell:
>
> The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress,
>
>
> * each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way.
> * In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days.
> * Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast *wish* ever again if you suffer this stress.
>
>
> | No Material Components or Casting Times
=======================================
Wish allows you to cast any spell without a material component or casting time. Many lower leveled spells are balanced around their casting times.
Some examples of how this is incredibly potent:
1. Use *Wish* to cast *Planar Binding* at level 9 as an action without a material component. Any celestial, fiend, fey, or elemental that fails their save is bound to your will for a year. Better yet - use *Feeblemind* or *Portent* to guarantee a failed save, even against a demon prince (provided you burn their legendary resists).
2. Cast *Simulacrum* as an action without a costly material component. Copy all of that creature's spells and abilities (including legendary actions and legendary resists) for free. No save, no to-hit roll.
3. Up against an undead/fiend/fey/celestial army? Cast *Forbiddance* as a L9 spell to target 40,000 square feet of space (that's 8,000 squares, or basically a whole battle map). Chosen creatures take 5d10 radiant damage per round (no save), and can't teleport into the area. Lasts 1 day, no concentration.
4. Facing a Demon Lord or other nasty without access to *Dispel Magic* or teleportation? Hit them with an instant-cast *Magic Circle* for a free, concentration-less prison lasting 7 hours. No save.
5. About to die? Cast *Magic Jar* as an action to save yourself and get a new, less dead body. (And then use *Wish* to cast *Resurrection* to raise your own corpse).
6. Use an action to cast a free *Resurrection*.
7. Are you an illusionist? Use *Wish* to cast *Mirage Arcane*.You can literally tell your DM to change battle maps to anything you want as an action because you don't like this one. Does a "mountain" count as an "object" for the purpose of illusory reality? How about 1 mile high, 1 mile wide adamantium wall or an appropriately sized adamantium cage or pit?
8. Use *Creation* to create any "object" you want and make it real. Can you *Wish* to cast *Creation* as an action to make a 25\*25\*25 cube of adamantine, or dynamite, or caesium? RAW (and presumably, RAI), the answer is yes. Yes you can. And there is no restriction on using *Creation* offensively in this manner. Creation has a range of 30 feet, and can be cast "above" a target. A 25\*25\*25 cube of 24K gold (that's 15625 cubic feet) weighs 18,808,374 pounds. Whatever you hit with that is **not** getting back up. |
258,672 | What is the difference between SMD and pad in Eagle?
Can I use both to solder?
I am trying to make a PCB for my LEDs and I don't know I have to use SMD or pad. | 2016/09/19 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/258672",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/122212/"
] | There are two types of component packaging available in the market. SMD and thru-hole.
The PCB that you are making for LED's is most probably equipped with thru hole LED. (If you are asking this question it leads me to think that you don't know the difference between Chip LED and thru hole. So my assumption is that you are making hobbyist stuff. )
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xEeTD.jpg)
Image Courtesy - Wikipedia
If your LED looks something like above, you need to use Pads in your design which are thru hole. Instead of SMD pads.
To answer this question satisfactorily, i need you to ask that did you make the schematic design of your board?
If yes, then you would have chosen LED such as LED 5mm or LED 3mm or ChipLED in eagle symbol selection. If you did the above step, your question is void. | SMD is a form factor for a component (as opposed to thru-hole). A pad is what the pins of an SMD component rest on to be soldered.
Presumably (I haven't used eagle pcb specifically), SMD is used to add an entire component to the layout, while pad is used for extraneous things, such as [heatsinking](https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/243989/optimize-heat-sink-design-connect-cooling-pad-on-pcb-backside-by-vias). |
258,672 | What is the difference between SMD and pad in Eagle?
Can I use both to solder?
I am trying to make a PCB for my LEDs and I don't know I have to use SMD or pad. | 2016/09/19 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/258672",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/122212/"
] | Both are technically "pads". The difference is that "pad" if for thru-hole components, so has a hole in it. In eagle, this hole becomes a integral part of the pad. "SMD" is for surface-mount components, so has no hole thru it. | SMD is a form factor for a component (as opposed to thru-hole). A pad is what the pins of an SMD component rest on to be soldered.
Presumably (I haven't used eagle pcb specifically), SMD is used to add an entire component to the layout, while pad is used for extraneous things, such as [heatsinking](https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/243989/optimize-heat-sink-design-connect-cooling-pad-on-pcb-backside-by-vias). |
258,672 | What is the difference between SMD and pad in Eagle?
Can I use both to solder?
I am trying to make a PCB for my LEDs and I don't know I have to use SMD or pad. | 2016/09/19 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/258672",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/122212/"
] | Both are technically "pads". The difference is that "pad" if for thru-hole components, so has a hole in it. In eagle, this hole becomes a integral part of the pad. "SMD" is for surface-mount components, so has no hole thru it. | There are two types of component packaging available in the market. SMD and thru-hole.
The PCB that you are making for LED's is most probably equipped with thru hole LED. (If you are asking this question it leads me to think that you don't know the difference between Chip LED and thru hole. So my assumption is that you are making hobbyist stuff. )
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xEeTD.jpg)
Image Courtesy - Wikipedia
If your LED looks something like above, you need to use Pads in your design which are thru hole. Instead of SMD pads.
To answer this question satisfactorily, i need you to ask that did you make the schematic design of your board?
If yes, then you would have chosen LED such as LED 5mm or LED 3mm or ChipLED in eagle symbol selection. If you did the above step, your question is void. |
326,545 | I am using a Macbook Air with macOS High Sierra.
When I install a third party application and later delete it, I have to remove files stored by it in Application Support, Preferences etc. in `~/Library`. I have to manually look up and delete files containing the name of the third party app (eg. com.EaseUsMobiMover installed by MobiMover).
Why doesn't Finder show these files when I search for them? And how do I make Finder search for all files containing the name of the app like com.abc for the app "abc"? | 2018/05/29 | [
"https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/326545",
"https://apple.stackexchange.com",
"https://apple.stackexchange.com/users/253368/"
] | You have to include "System Files" in your criteria to search places like the user Library.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/DL57T.png)
To do so, open a search window in Finder `cmd``F`, click on "*Kind*" and select "*Other*" and scroll down to "*System Files*". Tick the box under "*In Menu*" for easier access in the future by including it in the search menu.
(You can also specify hidden files here, with the "*File invisible*" attribute)
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/jin0y.png)
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/NBPRS.png)
You can also save those search criteria and add them to the Finder sidebar for quick access.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Zi3S7.png)
If the above does not yield the desired results, a [rebuild of the Spotlight index](https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201716) might be required. | I don't know *why* Finder will not search hidden & System folders, but it won't.
The simplest workaround is to use something like [EasyFind](https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/easyfind/id411673888?mt=12) - freeware - which will search anywhere you tell it. |
577,764 | The sources I've read on making web pages accessible provide conflicting information on whether the 'title' attribute is actually useful. Some claim that it's best practice to give a web control a title attribute containing a more detailed explanation than the visible text on the control provides. Others claim that the default for most screen-readers is to ignore title attributes, so the attribute is useless in practice (except for providing tooltips for sighted readers). So, what do you folks recommend? | 2009/02/23 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/577764",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/17777/"
] | Not all screen readers ignore titles but some do. This is one of those areas though where it is best for you to include it as those who *can* get that content *will*. Plus search engines love title tags. | I'm actually encountering this problem with another Stack Overflow user right now in [this question](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/545757/web-config-error-when-trying-to-use-forms-authentication). Specifically, the reasons for a verbose title are:
* A good title communicates to your visitors a lot of information about what the page is about
* Google places higher weight on text within the `title` tag
However, this is lost on the user when they get to your page and have no idea what's going on just because you decided to game a search engine. Take Stack Overflow, for instance. A 50 word title may be good for Google, but how would *you* feel as a user if this question had the following title:
---
Should I make the Title Attribute Longer In Order To Acheive a Higher Ranking on Google, or Should I Make it shorter to make it accessible and not drive my Users Crazy?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
In the end, while Google does matter; it doesn't matter more than keeping your user on your site once they are there; not to mention the benefit of a verbose title tag is lost on accessibility.
This website has a [great article on the subject](http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/02/18/9-common-usability-blunders/), and they write:
>
> *[...]* The second reason has to do with SEO. Search engines need different information to rank the results of a particular query. Page title is one of the more important pieces of information they use to gauge how relevant your page is to a particular search term. This doesn’t mean you should load as many keywords as possible into the title — that defeats the first benefit — **but you should ensure that each title succinctly describes the content of the page, including a couple of words you think people will search for.** *(Emphasis Added)*
>
>
> |
577,764 | The sources I've read on making web pages accessible provide conflicting information on whether the 'title' attribute is actually useful. Some claim that it's best practice to give a web control a title attribute containing a more detailed explanation than the visible text on the control provides. Others claim that the default for most screen-readers is to ignore title attributes, so the attribute is useless in practice (except for providing tooltips for sighted readers). So, what do you folks recommend? | 2009/02/23 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/577764",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/17777/"
] | Not all screen readers ignore titles but some do. This is one of those areas though where it is best for you to include it as those who *can* get that content *will*. Plus search engines love title tags. | I use title on any links from my website as it is recommeneded by WC3 as per accessibility guideline 13.1 See <http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-meaningful-links>
For a lot of these accessibility issues bear in mind that what is not used now by an application may be used in the future so it's best to err on the side of doing too much rather than the bare minimum. |
370,847 | I am designing a power supply for a flight controller, and I am finished with the regulating and almost everything else. I want to have a polyfuse on both of my inputs, but I don't know how to pick the right one. I don't really know much about the power consumption of the application, as it can vary. But, the maximum output of the power supply is 1A. the maximum input voltage should not exceed 22.5V. I know that things to consider in such a fuse is I\_trip and I\_hold, and of course maximum voltage and current. Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me? | 2018/04/26 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/370847",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/185290/"
] | The Itrip of a a polyfuse is the current at which the fuse 'trips'; when it goes high-impedance. Then, when it is in the high-impedance state, if the current through it goes below Ihold, it will return to its low-impedance state (though not perfectly; it will still be higher resistance than it was at first). | Hold current is how much continuous current can flow through the PTC without tripping it. This would be the maximum operating current of your circuit.
Trip current is how much current is needed for the PTC to start heating up, which is when its internal resistance increases and current flow is reduced to protect your circuit. It is always larger than the hold current.
I would pick a trip current that protects your power supply (I\_trip=1A) and then see which parts had a hold current that is high enough to suit the needs of your application.
There's a similar question with some discussion in the comments here if you need more information:
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/369505/185972> |
370,847 | I am designing a power supply for a flight controller, and I am finished with the regulating and almost everything else. I want to have a polyfuse on both of my inputs, but I don't know how to pick the right one. I don't really know much about the power consumption of the application, as it can vary. But, the maximum output of the power supply is 1A. the maximum input voltage should not exceed 22.5V. I know that things to consider in such a fuse is I\_trip and I\_hold, and of course maximum voltage and current. Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me? | 2018/04/26 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/370847",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/185290/"
] | >
> Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me?
>
>
>
The fuse is guaranteed not to trip if the current is less than I\_hold.
The fuse is guaranteed to trip if the current is more than I\_trip.
You need to choose a polyfuse with I\_hold larger than your maximum load current consumption, or it may nuisance trip.
You need to choose a polyfuse with an I\_trip smaller than your power supply output if you want it to trip when a fault is presented. Otherwise it may fail to trip, and cook your supply. | The Itrip of a a polyfuse is the current at which the fuse 'trips'; when it goes high-impedance. Then, when it is in the high-impedance state, if the current through it goes below Ihold, it will return to its low-impedance state (though not perfectly; it will still be higher resistance than it was at first). |
370,847 | I am designing a power supply for a flight controller, and I am finished with the regulating and almost everything else. I want to have a polyfuse on both of my inputs, but I don't know how to pick the right one. I don't really know much about the power consumption of the application, as it can vary. But, the maximum output of the power supply is 1A. the maximum input voltage should not exceed 22.5V. I know that things to consider in such a fuse is I\_trip and I\_hold, and of course maximum voltage and current. Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me? | 2018/04/26 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/370847",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/185290/"
] | >
> Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me?
>
>
>
The fuse is guaranteed not to trip if the current is less than I\_hold.
The fuse is guaranteed to trip if the current is more than I\_trip.
You need to choose a polyfuse with I\_hold larger than your maximum load current consumption, or it may nuisance trip.
You need to choose a polyfuse with an I\_trip smaller than your power supply output if you want it to trip when a fault is presented. Otherwise it may fail to trip, and cook your supply. | Hold current is how much continuous current can flow through the PTC without tripping it. This would be the maximum operating current of your circuit.
Trip current is how much current is needed for the PTC to start heating up, which is when its internal resistance increases and current flow is reduced to protect your circuit. It is always larger than the hold current.
I would pick a trip current that protects your power supply (I\_trip=1A) and then see which parts had a hold current that is high enough to suit the needs of your application.
There's a similar question with some discussion in the comments here if you need more information:
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/369505/185972> |
370,847 | I am designing a power supply for a flight controller, and I am finished with the regulating and almost everything else. I want to have a polyfuse on both of my inputs, but I don't know how to pick the right one. I don't really know much about the power consumption of the application, as it can vary. But, the maximum output of the power supply is 1A. the maximum input voltage should not exceed 22.5V. I know that things to consider in such a fuse is I\_trip and I\_hold, and of course maximum voltage and current. Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me? | 2018/04/26 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/370847",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/185290/"
] | Most important for protection is the **interrupting capacity** in amperes and the **maximum voltage**. If you exceed either one, the fuse may not open or may be damaged. You should evaluate the worst-case fault current and make sure it cannot exceed the interrupting capacity.
Beyond that, you are interested in the worst-case current to open vs. stay closed (both minimum and maximum). Itrip and Ihold Keep in mind that there is a tolerance and both will change with temperature (and with mounting, especially for SMT parts), so you should look at the curves and not just the rating at a certain temperature.
Read the manufacturer's application notes as well as data sheets. | Hold current is how much continuous current can flow through the PTC without tripping it. This would be the maximum operating current of your circuit.
Trip current is how much current is needed for the PTC to start heating up, which is when its internal resistance increases and current flow is reduced to protect your circuit. It is always larger than the hold current.
I would pick a trip current that protects your power supply (I\_trip=1A) and then see which parts had a hold current that is high enough to suit the needs of your application.
There's a similar question with some discussion in the comments here if you need more information:
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/369505/185972> |
370,847 | I am designing a power supply for a flight controller, and I am finished with the regulating and almost everything else. I want to have a polyfuse on both of my inputs, but I don't know how to pick the right one. I don't really know much about the power consumption of the application, as it can vary. But, the maximum output of the power supply is 1A. the maximum input voltage should not exceed 22.5V. I know that things to consider in such a fuse is I\_trip and I\_hold, and of course maximum voltage and current. Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me? | 2018/04/26 | [
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/370847",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com",
"https://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/185290/"
] | >
> Can anyone explain I\_trip and I\_hold to me?
>
>
>
The fuse is guaranteed not to trip if the current is less than I\_hold.
The fuse is guaranteed to trip if the current is more than I\_trip.
You need to choose a polyfuse with I\_hold larger than your maximum load current consumption, or it may nuisance trip.
You need to choose a polyfuse with an I\_trip smaller than your power supply output if you want it to trip when a fault is presented. Otherwise it may fail to trip, and cook your supply. | Most important for protection is the **interrupting capacity** in amperes and the **maximum voltage**. If you exceed either one, the fuse may not open or may be damaged. You should evaluate the worst-case fault current and make sure it cannot exceed the interrupting capacity.
Beyond that, you are interested in the worst-case current to open vs. stay closed (both minimum and maximum). Itrip and Ihold Keep in mind that there is a tolerance and both will change with temperature (and with mounting, especially for SMT parts), so you should look at the curves and not just the rating at a certain temperature.
Read the manufacturer's application notes as well as data sheets. |
106,593 | I tried creating a Raspberry Pi VM using the official Raspberry Pi for Desktop iso located at <https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspberry-pi-desktop/>, but every time I run the install, I get this message in the VM "An installation step failed. You can try to run the failing item again from the menu, or skip it and choose something else. The failing step is: Install the system." I don't know what I am doing wrong.
I am using Virtual Box and am running Debian 64-bit. | 2019/12/26 | [
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/106593",
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com",
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/users/112617/"
] | This semi-worked for me:
I arrived back at the first "install" screen after receiving the red error message of death stating the "failing step is: install the system."
At this screen, I selected the VirtualBox's File > Close > "Send the shutdown signal"
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/NA9MZ.png)
This somehow took me to the Raspberry Pi setup screen where you initialize your preferences such as languages.
This doesn't seem like a permanent solution, for after a restart the state doesn't appear to be persisted... but it at least gets you into the OS.
Good luck, I hope this helps someone.
UPDATE:
From the install screen, it looks like selecting "Run with persistence" instead of "install" also seems to semi-work.
After restart the install process begins again.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/o1cmN.png) | The Solution simply is:
You need VirtualBox 5.2 !!!
newer Versions of Vbox dont support 32bit Systems.
Oracle:
"Please also use version 5.2 if you still need support for 32-bit hosts, as this has been discontinued in 6.0."
get it at:
<https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds_5_2>
greetz DangerMouse |
106,593 | I tried creating a Raspberry Pi VM using the official Raspberry Pi for Desktop iso located at <https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspberry-pi-desktop/>, but every time I run the install, I get this message in the VM "An installation step failed. You can try to run the failing item again from the menu, or skip it and choose something else. The failing step is: Install the system." I don't know what I am doing wrong.
I am using Virtual Box and am running Debian 64-bit. | 2019/12/26 | [
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/106593",
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com",
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/users/112617/"
] | Overcome this problem by initially configuring the virtual machine with 2000MB memory and 15GB disk.
Raspberry installation, do it with "Graphical Install"
I did this because when I was installing the updates, I got a message saying not having enough space for updates. | The Solution simply is:
You need VirtualBox 5.2 !!!
newer Versions of Vbox dont support 32bit Systems.
Oracle:
"Please also use version 5.2 if you still need support for 32-bit hosts, as this has been discontinued in 6.0."
get it at:
<https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds_5_2>
greetz DangerMouse |
106,593 | I tried creating a Raspberry Pi VM using the official Raspberry Pi for Desktop iso located at <https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspberry-pi-desktop/>, but every time I run the install, I get this message in the VM "An installation step failed. You can try to run the failing item again from the menu, or skip it and choose something else. The failing step is: Install the system." I don't know what I am doing wrong.
I am using Virtual Box and am running Debian 64-bit. | 2019/12/26 | [
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/106593",
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com",
"https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/users/112617/"
] | I just create the pi desktop image on VirtualBox 6.1.16 64bit using the 32 bit pi image from your link.
Set the VM to be 4 gig ram, 16 gig hard disk, linux OS, 32 bit (1 CPU until after the installation, because I forgot to update it).
Chose the Install option and it went through without a hitch. Rebooted and now I have a full Rasbian desktop in a vm. So these settings should work for you too. | The Solution simply is:
You need VirtualBox 5.2 !!!
newer Versions of Vbox dont support 32bit Systems.
Oracle:
"Please also use version 5.2 if you still need support for 32-bit hosts, as this has been discontinued in 6.0."
get it at:
<https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds_5_2>
greetz DangerMouse |
24,715,738 | This may seem an odd question , but I'm just wondering if the process of finalising a WP8 app is different to a WP7 app.
In WP7 when I am ready to publish an app I just go into the Debug/Bin folder upload the XAP top Dev Center. However, when I do this with WP8 apps they never serve ads. Also the XAP is always called something like AppName\_AnyCPU\_Debug.xap compared to just AppName.xap in WP7 apps (using VS2010).
I know with Windows 8 you do something different, but is it the same in WP8?
Help is appreciated. | 2014/07/12 | [
"https://Stackoverflow.com/questions/24715738",
"https://Stackoverflow.com",
"https://Stackoverflow.com/users/3176804/"
] | Yes, its same in Windows phone 8.
But dont forget to check the project for store requirements.
Here is the link for more info on Store test kit
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windowsphone/develop/hh394032%28v=vs.105%29.aspx> | I am not sure about windows phone 7 but in windows phone 8 \*\_AnyCPU\_Debug.xap means that xap is targeted for any CPU architecture(x86 or ARM) currently all windows phone CPU are ARM based. and secondly \_Debug means that the xap is build as debug and that is not a good idea to publish the as the xap will contain unnecessary debug symbols and effect app performance. alwasy use build mode release when every you are publishing your app. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | Hold a doctorate in economics and work as a practising academic economist. | Masters degree in economics. Working in the public sector. I have a general interest in economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | Doctorate, research economist. | I studied some undergrad economics at University, but am not otherwise involved.
Have a general interest in economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | I am a PhD Candidate in Economics. | Hold a doctorate in economics and work as a practising academic economist. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | I am a PhD Candidate in Economics. | Doctorate, research economist. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | I am a PhD Candidate in Economics. | Undergrad degree including economics. Masters in a sub-field of economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | I am a PhD Candidate in Economics. | Masters degree in economics. Working in the public sector. I have a general interest in economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | Hold a doctorate in economics and work as a practising academic economist. | I studied some undergrad economics at University, but am not otherwise involved.
Have a general interest in economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | I am a PhD Candidate in Economics. | I studied some undergrad economics at University, but am not otherwise involved.
Have a general interest in economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | Undergrad degree including economics. Masters in a sub-field of economics. | I studied some undergrad economics at University, but am not otherwise involved.
Have a general interest in economics. |
1,298 | Simple straw poll here. Upvote the answer that applies to you.
NB - [Meta-meta] - Are polls appropriate in meta discussion? | 2015/04/08 | [
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1298",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com",
"https://economics.meta.stackexchange.com/users/96/"
] | Doctorate, research economist. | Masters degree in economics. Working in the public sector. I have a general interest in economics. |
251,325 | In this first clip his clothing is visible.
In this second clip, his clothing is invisible, as otherwise the men who are hunting him would have seen his clothing.
Is there any rhyme or reason to when his clothing is visible and when it is invisible, or did the director simply not care about this inconsistency? Is it possibly because when his clothes are invisible it is because those are the clothes he was wearing when he was in the building fire, and those became invisible as well, and the times when his clothing is visible is because he is wearing different clothing, clothing that wasn't in the building when the accident occurred? | 2021/07/11 | [
"https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/251325",
"https://scifi.stackexchange.com",
"https://scifi.stackexchange.com/users/-1/"
] | You effectively answered your own question, but I'll add some evidence.
First of all, these are the clothes Halloway was wearing when he was turned invisible. Of particular note are the white shirt, the dark suit jacket and trousers, and the dark shoes, because we see these again and again in later scenes. (The waistcoat and tie are discarded in his apartment.)
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/sROCP.jpg)
Shortly after the accident that turned him invisible, Halloway mentions that he can't see his body or his clothes, indicating that the clothes he was wearing at the time *were* turned invisible, just as large portions of the building he was in were.
>
> I walked over to the mirror. I was right. There was no reflection. **My body, clothes, everything was gone.** I was invisible.
>
>
>
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/KdF40.png)
However, he puts on a hat that was hanging on a coat stand in a portion of the building that wasn't turned invisible, and that's perfectly visible, to him and everyone else.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tg2iN.png)
So the rules are clearly established here. The clothes he had on when he was turned invisible are also invisible, due to the same accident. But any clothes which weren't affected by the accident -- such as a hat located elsewhere in the same building -- are visible, and remain visible even if he wears them. These rules apply consistently throughout the film.
Note that when Halloway flees from his apartment the following morning to avoid being captured by Jenkins' goons -- as shown in [the second of the two videos you posted in your question](https://youtu.be/WTyDjD1SfgE?t=12) -- he puts on the same clothes he had on when he was turned invisible. They *look* the same (white shirt, dark suit jacket and trousers, dark shoes), and you can see him feeling around for the jacket with his hands, and fumbling while trying to put it on, because he can't actually see it.
Halloway was wearing *visible* clothes when Jenkins' goons showed up again at the beach house, because he thought they wouldn't find him there, but wisely changes back into the invisible clothes before escaping in a car with Alice, to reduce the chances of being seen and caught.
To summarise, in any scene where Halloway wants to be fully invisible -- like when he's fleeing or hiding -- he either strips naked, or wears the same clothes he had on during the accident (usually the latter). He only wears different clothes when he wants to be seen, or when he's alone, and those clothes are always shown to be visible.
[The first of the two videos you posted](https://youtu.be/mrKbgnbEEZk?t=10) is one such example, but there are more.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rsxua.png)
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/hjRNZ.jpg)
In the scene below, Halloway strips fully naked to avoid being seen, when his friend, George, unexpectedly turns up with guests at the beach house he was hiding out in. Again, note that the clothes he took off in this scene (the ones George had just picked up off the floor in the image below) are not the same clothes he was wearing during the accident.
[](https://i.stack.imgur.com/YABTL.jpg) | That is precisely the situation. As we see in the [source novel for the film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_an_Invisible_Man), the clothes (and indeed an entire chunk of the building) in which he was standing when the accident occurred are invisible.
>
> There was another odd thing: I couldn't see the finger. Or the hand. I
> covered both eyes with the hand. There was absolutely no change in my
> field of vision. The sun was higher now and I could see everything
> around me — trees, lawn, bright blue sky — just as clearly as ever
> before in my life. More clearly, perhaps. Trembling, I reached down
> and felt my missing legs. It seemed that they were intact and in the
> appropriate place. I straightened up so that my weight was on my
> knees, and ran my hands over my entire body. **It was all there —
> clothed, furthermore, in the usual business suit. Still, no matter how
> I turned my head or focused my eyes, I could see nothing of myself.** In
> fact, there was nothing whatever to be seen anywhere within the
> spherical area of the crater. I could feel myself to be materially
> intact, and I was conscious and thinking after a fashion. And I was
> dimly aware of hearing myself whimper inarticulately. But then, I
> could plainly see that I was no longer material at all. I simply could
> not make my mind work; the situation was too terrifying and illogical.
> Trying to think clearly was like trying to run in waist-high water.
> But finally, in a flash of dreadful insight, I arrived at an
> explanation which covered all the facts. Evidently, I was dead.
>
>
>
But when he puts on clothes or holds an object, it remains visible.
>
> Alice set out early on the day of our departure to fetch her car from its garage somewhere in Queens.
> **On her return she found me waiting in front of the building, fully arrayed in gloves and ski mask and
> dark glasses. The doorman had been a bit startled to see me emerge like that from the elevator** — the
> lobby being maintained at a steady eighty degrees — and as he helped me load the skis and the
> luggage, he kept glancing at me suspiciously, but I was too elated to care.
>
>
> |
101,383 | I have 10,000 addresses from a city, which all have a region field in the database.
When a new address is entered, then I want my software to automatically detect the region of the address .
I think it should be implemented with some sort of machine learning algorithm. How can I do this?
And with every newly inserted address, the machine should learn to detect the region of the new address.
Is there any library for machine-Learning algorithms (like aforge.net for neural networks)? | 2011/08/16 | [
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/101383",
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com",
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/users/34376/"
] | I think there're clear rules on how cities are partitioned into quarters or regions. You should ask your local administration on where they draw the borders. Then you could, for example, retrieve the location data of the address (latitude and longitude might work) and simply check in which region's boundaries this address is in. There's no need for a learning algorithm for this problem.
However, if you can't acquire the boundary data for the partitions then I'd try to find the nearest known region, probably by distance. Again, I see no sense in an evolving algorithm or some sort of AI here. Either you can determine the region deterministically by known boundaries or you can try to find the nearest known region. AI is imho an overkill for such a task. You'd have to constantly recalculate initially guessed region-boundaries and evaluate them and then update existing addresses of which the region is known to be uncertain. Also, you'd have to feed the system constantly with addresses of which the region is known to verify uncertain regions.
But as regions are very unlikely to change their borders, I'd just try to obtain the boundaries, like stated above, from the local administration. | >
> I think it should be implemented with some sort of machine learning
> algorithm.
>
>
>
**Nope**
>
> How can I do this?
>
>
>
Use a shapefile with polylines of the regions (they are more or less files full of coordinate pairs with a bit of metadata associated). Use something like the [Google Maps Geocoding API](http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/geocoding/) to geocode the address (you send an address, and it sends back a coordinate pair). Write a simple algrithm\* to determine which polygon from the shapefile the geocoded coordinates lie within. You can find shapefiles all over the web, especially from government agencies such as NOAA. The USGS has a decent [collection](http://coastalmap.marine.usgs.gov/regional/contusa/eastcoast/atlanticcoast/data.html) too. I believe this solves the problem without breaking any of the laws of robotics, so I would not even bother with an AI-oriented solution. :)
\*I would start [here](http://www.bdcc.co.uk/Gmaps/BdccGmapBits.htm) for a good reference to get you started. Also, do not forget that the earth is curved, so distance calculations work a bit different than on flat plane (think radians). |
101,383 | I have 10,000 addresses from a city, which all have a region field in the database.
When a new address is entered, then I want my software to automatically detect the region of the address .
I think it should be implemented with some sort of machine learning algorithm. How can I do this?
And with every newly inserted address, the machine should learn to detect the region of the new address.
Is there any library for machine-Learning algorithms (like aforge.net for neural networks)? | 2011/08/16 | [
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/101383",
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com",
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/users/34376/"
] | I think there're clear rules on how cities are partitioned into quarters or regions. You should ask your local administration on where they draw the borders. Then you could, for example, retrieve the location data of the address (latitude and longitude might work) and simply check in which region's boundaries this address is in. There's no need for a learning algorithm for this problem.
However, if you can't acquire the boundary data for the partitions then I'd try to find the nearest known region, probably by distance. Again, I see no sense in an evolving algorithm or some sort of AI here. Either you can determine the region deterministically by known boundaries or you can try to find the nearest known region. AI is imho an overkill for such a task. You'd have to constantly recalculate initially guessed region-boundaries and evaluate them and then update existing addresses of which the region is known to be uncertain. Also, you'd have to feed the system constantly with addresses of which the region is known to verify uncertain regions.
But as regions are very unlikely to change their borders, I'd just try to obtain the boundaries, like stated above, from the local administration. | You're trying to classify the addresses, and associate the classification groups with regions.
You could pour your 10,000 addresses + regions into a random forest. Or build several for an ensemble. The trick would be how to build the inputs: you might have to use a "word bag" approach, with a boolean for each street name and a few fields for the discreet values like street address. That would be a big input, but that's OK; sometimes the features of a training set can run into the thousands (or more).
Split your data up into training/testing sets, though. Pour 9,000 of the addresses into the random forest, then use the other 1,000 to test it and see what % accuracy you get. There are fancier ways to split it up, but that's a good start.
In Python, scikit-learn is always a good choice. sci-kit learn will have other classification schemes that might be even better than random forest for this task. |
101,383 | I have 10,000 addresses from a city, which all have a region field in the database.
When a new address is entered, then I want my software to automatically detect the region of the address .
I think it should be implemented with some sort of machine learning algorithm. How can I do this?
And with every newly inserted address, the machine should learn to detect the region of the new address.
Is there any library for machine-Learning algorithms (like aforge.net for neural networks)? | 2011/08/16 | [
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/101383",
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com",
"https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/users/34376/"
] | >
> I think it should be implemented with some sort of machine learning
> algorithm.
>
>
>
**Nope**
>
> How can I do this?
>
>
>
Use a shapefile with polylines of the regions (they are more or less files full of coordinate pairs with a bit of metadata associated). Use something like the [Google Maps Geocoding API](http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/geocoding/) to geocode the address (you send an address, and it sends back a coordinate pair). Write a simple algrithm\* to determine which polygon from the shapefile the geocoded coordinates lie within. You can find shapefiles all over the web, especially from government agencies such as NOAA. The USGS has a decent [collection](http://coastalmap.marine.usgs.gov/regional/contusa/eastcoast/atlanticcoast/data.html) too. I believe this solves the problem without breaking any of the laws of robotics, so I would not even bother with an AI-oriented solution. :)
\*I would start [here](http://www.bdcc.co.uk/Gmaps/BdccGmapBits.htm) for a good reference to get you started. Also, do not forget that the earth is curved, so distance calculations work a bit different than on flat plane (think radians). | You're trying to classify the addresses, and associate the classification groups with regions.
You could pour your 10,000 addresses + regions into a random forest. Or build several for an ensemble. The trick would be how to build the inputs: you might have to use a "word bag" approach, with a boolean for each street name and a few fields for the discreet values like street address. That would be a big input, but that's OK; sometimes the features of a training set can run into the thousands (or more).
Split your data up into training/testing sets, though. Pour 9,000 of the addresses into the random forest, then use the other 1,000 to test it and see what % accuracy you get. There are fancier ways to split it up, but that's a good start.
In Python, scikit-learn is always a good choice. sci-kit learn will have other classification schemes that might be even better than random forest for this task. |
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