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Talk:FXB International
I have added additional sources to support the information about FXB. I have also attempted to remove biased and promotional language. Ndauterive (talk) 21:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Cleanup--removal of additional programs
In the process of cleaning up the article, I decided to to remove the "Additional Programs" section. This list was culled entirely from the 2008 Annual Report, plus one press release. Conceivably, we could go through all of their annual reports and pull out a 1 or 2 sentence summary on every program they were involved in, but that would be wholly inappropriate, and would turn this article into just a mouthpiece for the organization. We need to make sure that the information we cover is really notable. Since FXB has so many different programs, it seems reasonable to me to limit such a list to only those programs that have been remarked on at least once by independent, third-party sources. I would be comfortable with a general summary of their other work extracted from their internal reports, but not a project by project list. I'm not going to sift through their annual reports myself, but if someone else wants to work up a good, neutral paragraph, I'd be happy to check it over and copy-edit as necessary. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 one external links on FXB International. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
* Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018042941/http://www.usaid.gov/rw/our_work/newsroom/highlights.html to http://www.usaid.gov/rw/our_work/newsroom/highlights.html
* Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151117025250/http://www.redsemlac.net/reports/SEMlac/Reports08.htm to http://www.redsemlac.net/reports/SEMlac/Reports08.htm
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
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Page:A Dictionary of Saintly Women Volume 1.djvu/180
166 166 B. CATHERINE lionses and talk to the aged and infirm, who could not come to the gatherings of the community. In one of the wigwams he found Tegahkouita, who was pre- Tented by a wound in her foot from going to the fields with the others. Ever since the first visit of the missionaries she had been longing to become a Christian, and now she frankly told Father Lamber- ville her wish. She said she would have great obstacles to overcome, but that they would not frighten her. He saw in her one chosen by God, but his ex- perience among the Indians led him to take many precautions before admitting them to ihe sacrament of baptism. At last, at Easter, 1G7G, he found no further cause for delay, and christened her by the name of Catherine. He was astonished to find in her so many saintly qualities. Those who were least dis- posed to follow her example were struck by her holiness, and for a time treated her with great respect ; but by-and-by her modesty appeared to the young people of her village to be a reproach to tho libertine life they led. They ridi- culed her, and threw stones at her on her way to church, while her uncle and aunt starved her and behaved very un- kindly to her. At this time a number of converted Indians had withdrawn to the Prairie de la Magdejleine, and amongst these new settlers was a friend of Tegahkouita' s, whose husband helped the missionaries assiduously. This young couple made a plan to take her to join them, but her uncle was greatly incensed at the depopulation of his part of the country, and tried to prevent any more of his people from leaving the place. In his absence the young man with a friend came on a pretended hunting expedition, and took her away with them. The uncle soon heard of it, and ran furiously after them, resolved to bring her back dead or alive. He overtook the two hunters, but they had hidden the young convert in the wood, and after some futile conversation he concluded that he had been misinformed. Catherine arrived in the Prairie de la Magdeleine in October, 1677. Her friends had no cabin of their own, but lodged with a fervent Christian named Anastasia, who devoted her life to the conversion and salvation of women, preparing them for baptism ; and here Catherine gave her- self, without reserve, to God, and took giant strides in the path of holiness. She had not received her first Com- munion, and it was tho custom not to grant it to neophytes, but to prepare them by long trial. She expected to have to wait like the others, but her director soon discerned her fitness and her fervour, and granted her this privi- lege, to her great comfort and to the edification of others. Her best friends urged her to marry, as it was until then unheard of that an Iroquois girl should remain unmarried. Even the mission- aries had never suggested such a things but at last Catherine received permission to make a vow of virginity, and was the first of her nation who did so. Tho neophytes were declared by the other Iroquois to be enemies of their country, and they expected to be frightfully tortured should they fall alive into the hands of their compatriots. Her mortifications undermined her health, and she became very ill. After a long time of suffering she received " the holy oils " on the Wednesday before Easter, 1G78, and she died the same afternoon, aged twenty-four, at the Sault St. Louis. Her exemplary life and holy death caused a great increase of fervour amongst the Iroquois of the Sault St. Louis. Immediately after her death her wasted features recovered their bloom. Her tomb was soon a famous resort for crowds of the faithful, who flocked there from all parts of Canada. Those who sought her intercession were singularly favoured, and miracles encouraged the general opinion which regarded and to this day regards her as the protectress of Canada. The inhabitants of several of tho neighbouring parishes were in the habit of assembling at the Sault St. Louis to sing a Mass in her honour, although she had not been canonized. A new parish priest recently arrived from France refused to conform, fearing to authorize by his presence a public worship which the Church had not yet permitted. All his hearers said he would be signally
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Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Canada highway WikiProjects
* The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was Merge/Redirect ^ demon [omg plz] 19:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Canada highway WikiProjects
This nomination includes: All of these projects appear to be inactive (they actually appear never to have been active in the first place). None of their project pages (which are unfinished) have been edited in several months. The projects only have three to five members, and have no articles. Merging into the WikiProject Canada Roads parent project may not be feasible since that project is also somewhat inactive, and highways seem to be covered well by existing provincial WikiProjects. I know that nominating these all in a single MFD may be weird, but they all have the same problems. --Core desat 01:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* All project userboxes and subpages (if any, I have not found any)
* Delete. None of the projects have any dedicated editors, and, due to the low amount of articles, the parent Canada Roads project is a sufficient project to cover all of Canada. However, the possibility for recreation for each individual project should remain if enough editors/interest is found. -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 01:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* I declare myself a "dedicated editor" for the Saskatchewan project, thank you. Ultraflame 03:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete. It seems like too much organization for too little work being done. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 01:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Merge. I agree, there is far too many projects for some provinces that have very little road. That being said, I think that they shouldn't be eliminated, but merged into the parent WikiProject as task forces, like in WP:USRD. --myselfalso 02:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* So which provinces have "very little road"? Ultraflame 14:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Communities in Nunavut are only accessible via air or sea. In fact, the territory has no highways, and very few paved roads. Remote areas of the NWT have the same problem. Caknuck 15:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete. They're not doing any notable good. --TinMan 02:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Keep or Merge. Just look at what I have been doing with the Saskatchewan project. I believe I am quite dedicated to the Saskatchewan Roads WikiProject. Sure, I do not edit the project page, but do you even know how extensive the Saskatchewan highway system is? Look at the list of Saskatchewan highways. Then look at the list of Saskatchewan roads. Thank you. Ultraflame 03:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* No offense, but one person does not a WikiProject make. These projects were started and abandoned, and they have absolutely no articles. The parent project only has a few articles; the vast majority of highway articles are covered by the provincial WikiProjects. --Core desat 05:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* You called my project "abandoned". I don't think so. And look at the number of articles for the Saskatchewan project, please. Ultraflame 14:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* The number of articles isn't the issue. The issue is the inactivity and current state of the projects. The project you keep referring to has no guidelines for the articles, no examples of templates to use, and is of no use of anyone trying to write articles on Saskatchewan roads. Because of how these projects were created (copy and paste), all of the projects have the same problems. Also, as Coredesat said, one person does not make a WikiProject. There's nothing wrong with the Canada Roads WP being used for all of Canada's road articles for the time being until more editors are found. -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 15:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* If the number of articles is not an issue, why do you think the person who nominated these projects (my project, in particular) keeps mentioning the "lack of articles"? My project does have guidelines for the articles. It has examples of templates to use. And it is very useful to myself, as a member of the Saskatchewan Roads WikiProject, to write articles on Saskatchewan roads. Ultraflame 15:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* I see no structure and no infobox template (the default example does not count). -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 15:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* What do you mean by "default example" and why does it not count? Ultraflame 15:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Infobox projectname is not a valid infobox template. Please, look at WP:NYSR for what a road-related WikiProject should contain. -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 16:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* I do not believe our project uses that template. About your previous comment, we do have a structure, which is at the "Structure" section of the page. Many templates are used in the Saskatchewan Highways WikiProject, and you may view them at the List of Saskatchewan provincial highways. Finally, thank you for your demonstration of a WikiProject about roads. Ultraflame 16:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete. The problem with merging is that there's nothing to merge. Deleting the projects don't get in the way of the one active editor continuing to be active. Projects aren't required to organize the efforts of a single editor, and even if it were it's not doing the job. -- NORTH talk 03:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* So it cannot even be merged with the WikiProject Canada Roads? Ultraflame 14:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* There's nothing to merge. The project pages have no content whatsoever. -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 15:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* And what do you mean by "no content whatsoever"? Have you even read the project pages? Ultraflame 15:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* The pages are all copy-pasted duplicates of each other. Half the time, the editor forgot to fix the province names. Thus, they are redundant. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
* Merge Non-precedent-setting delete. Merge is what we've been doing with similar inactive road projects in the U.S. (i.e. WP:NVSH.) Not inactive to leave on their own but not pointless enough to delete. However, these are copy-paste jobs (sometimes the author forgot to change province names!) They can probably be recreated easily. So, reluctant delete but do not speedy delete as a recreation if someone bothers to recreate the project as an active and fully maintained project. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete and redirect the main project pages to WikiProject Canada Roads, nothing to merge. An example of an active subproject would be WikiProject Golden Horseshoe Roads, which I think should be merged under WikiProject Canada Roads as well, but that's another matter. –Pomte 14:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* What do you mean by "nothing to merge"? The links, perhaps? Ultraflame 14:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Which links? I am agreeing with some of the above that it appears there is nothing in these projects worth merging to WikiProject Canada Roads. Do not merge the member lists, because if they are active at all, they will sign their name up again at the parent project. Do not merge specific guidelines because they are boilerplate and WikiProject Canada Roads already contains a list of province/territory-specific conventions. However, if you find anything worth merging, go ahead. –Pomte 15:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete All and redirect the project pages to WikiProject Canada Roads. As stated, nothing to merge here - and the projects have not seen attention for much more than a year. With the activity involved in this - one project page is good enough and that is Canada Roads. -- master_son Talk - Edits 19:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Keep--as if we're all spending all of our living time on thse projects--these are works in progress, along with spending family time, work time, etc....and on wiki, it seems to be reversing vandalism on non-school days (Easter Monday)....Bacl-presby 20:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete per all the people who said to delete. There sure isn't anything to merge, and redirecting them all to WP:CRWP is fine. One person does not make a WikiProject, and there is no "I" in the word "team". WikiProjects are a team effort. One person does not qualify as a team. V 6 0 干什么？ · VDemolitions 20:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Move all project pages as subpages under the Canada Roads WP, similar to the way inactive subprojects of WP:USRD have been demoted. Should a subproject regain interest, it can be "repromoted" by moving it back out into project space. —Scott5114↗ 21:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* Comment. I have to say, there might not be much to merge in the sense of WikiProjects - but it should be folded into the main project. Otherwise, why not just delete WP:CRWP? Also, I don't think it's fair to apply USRD to CRWP - they are two separate countries. Unless USRD adopts Canadian highways, one can't apply USRD standards to CRWP. --myselfalso 21:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* It's easy to create empty talk pages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canada Roads/Ontario, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canada Roads/British Columbia etc and link to them from WP:CRWP for specific discussion. A parameter on CANRP can group articles under province/territory-specific categories. –Pomte 21:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* It wasn't my intention to apply USRD standards to Canada, but rather to use USRD's project-demotion process as an example for how I think these provincial subprojects should be handled. (USRD has enough on its collective plate as it is without adopting other countries' highways.;) ) —Scott5114↗ 14:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* Merge Per Scott5114. I have to admit, some Nunavut roads are interesting because they are seasonal. Some are made of ice completely and only available during winter. These roads are definetely notiable enough to be mentioned. OhanaUnited 00:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* We're talking about the WikiProjects guys, not the articles. The articles will not be affected by the deletion of the WikiProjects. -- master_son Talk - Edits 00:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete - required content can be merged into the Canada Roads project, and work groups for individual provinces can be created as called for. John Carter 16:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* Delete - all these WikiProjects obviously don't have enough members or content to stay afloat, this information can be well handled at the parent WikiProject, or even without the assistance of a WikiProject. Grover 11:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
* Keep I am fairly new to Wikipedia, but have enjoyed adding Saskatchewan articles. I would consider myself "dedicated", and have added a list and article, and will continue to. Each takes time. I am amazed at how much Saskatchewan roads articles have been growing, so does not feel abandoned to me. I agree with Ultraflame above, keep the provincial articles as they are different heirarchies,significance and importance which only local dwellers would particularly know, and there will be more involvement at a provincial project level, rather than national. SriMesh| talk Julia 22:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
* As Master son stated above, we are talking about the WikiProject pages, not the articles. The articles will not be affected. -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 23:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
* Since you are dedicated to the Saskatchewan page and have made improvements, the content should not be lost and should be moved to WikiProject Canada Roads/Saskatchewan or some other suitable subpage. Go ahead and make this move if you agree. –Pomte 03:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
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Types of blood pressure medication
Your blood pressure is a mighty force which causes blood to course through the body from the arteries where the pressure is high, throughout the organs of the body, and into the veins where the pressure becomes low. Your blood pressure is generated by the pumping of blood by your heart into the arteries as well as resistance to the flow of blood by your arteries.
Systolic blood pressure (which is the top number of your blood pressure) represents the pressure in your arteries occurring as the muscle of the heart contract and pump blood into the arteries. The diastolic blood pressure (the bottom number) represents the pressure in the arteries when the muscle of the heart relaxes after it contracts.
Medicinal cures for hypertension
Medications used to treat hypertension or high blood pressure, are called anti-hypertensive’s. There are several types or classes of anti-hypertensive drugs, used to treat high blood pressure and each type has an effect on a person’s blood pressure in different ways.
After careful consideration, a doctor will choose an antihypertensive medication that is best for a patient’s age, medical history and any other medical factor he feels is relevant. It’s important he gets it right.
There are many kinds of high blood pressure medicines. Many people with high blood pressure have swelling to their ankles for instance. This is because of a build up of fluid in their body.
Diuretics or “water pills” enable this excess fluid to be flushed out of the body when urinating. This then reduces the blood volume in the body which also helps in reducing the blood pressure. Other types of anti- hypertensive medicines assist in relaxing tight blood vessels which helps the flow of blood run more smoothly.
Because there is no known cure for hypertension, treatment for high blood pressure is normally a life-long process with the blood pressure being monitored on a regular basis to ensure patients are receiving optimum effect from their medication.
A standard blood pressure reading for healthy adults is usually shown to be below 120 systolic and 80 diastolic, or 120/80. Nonetheless, age and a medical history should always be taken into account as older people tend to have higher blood pressure readings.
Modifying your lifestyle is an excellent way of reducing your blood pressure. A person with high blood pressure who is overweight, and takes very little exercise, would probably find that modifying their lifestyle would assist in reducing their blood pressure to an acceptable level without the need to take medication.
A person with Stage 1 or Stage 2 hypertension usually requires two or more types of medicine to control their blood pressure.
Types of Blood Pressure Medications
Diuretics
Diuretics work in the kidney and flush excess water and minerals from the body. They have to be carefully monitored though as it is easy to overdose and deplete the body of important minerals.
Beta-blockers
Beta-blockers decrease nerve impulses to the heart and blood vessels. This helps the heart beat slower and less forcefully. The blood pressure then drops to a more acceptable level and the work of the heart is made much easier.
ACE inhibitors
Angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors avoid the formation of a hormone called angiotensin II. This hormone usually causes blood vessels to narrow which then forces the blood pressure to go up to quite often dangerous levels. ACE inhibitors cause the vessels to relax and the blood pressure can be maintained at a more acceptable level.
Angiotensin antagonists
Angiotensin antagonists also protect blood vessels from angiotensin II. this ensures the blood vessels become wide enough for the blood to flow smoothly and helps the blood pressure reduce.
Calcium channel blockers (CCBs)
CCBs prevent calcium from entering the muscle cells of the heart and blood vessels. This causes blood vessels to relax and pressure goes down to a more acceptable level.
Alpha-blockers
These lessen nerve impulses to blood vessels. This then allows blood to pass through the arteries more easily, causing the blood pressure to reduce.
Alpha-beta-blockers
Alpha-beta-blockers work in a similar way to alpha-blockers. However they also slow down the heartbeat, as beta-blockers do. This means less blood is pumped through the blood vessels and the blood pressure reduces accordingly.
Nervous system inhibitors
These relax the blood vessels by controlling and monitoring nerve impulses. This causes the blood vessels to become wider so the blood can flow more easily. This then encourages the blood pressure to reduce.
Vasodilators
These work by opening up the blood vessels. They relax muscles in the blood vessel walls this then helps the blood pressure to reduce. However vasodilators can have side effects such as severe headaches.
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Page:The Blind Man's Eyes (July 1916).pdf/233
Rh injury he had suffered was some such act of man against man as these letters and statements represented? She looked carefully through all the contents of the envelopes, but she could not find anything which helped her.
She pushed the letters away, then, and sat thinking. Mr. Warden, who appeared to have known more about Eaton than any one else, had taken Eaton's side; it was because he had been going to help Eaton that Mr. Warden had been killed. Would not her father be ready to help Eaton, then, if he knew as much about him as Mr. Warden had known? But Mr. Warden, apparently, had kept what he knew even from his own wife; and Eaton was now keeping it from every one—her father included. She felt that her father had understood and appreciated all this long before herself—that it was the reason for his attitude toward Eaton on the train and, in part, the cause of his considerate treatment of him all through. She sensed for the first time how great her father's perplexity must be; but she felt, too, how terrible the injustice must have been that Eaton had suffered, since he himself did not dare to tell it even to her father and since, to hide it, other men did not stop short of double murder.
So, instead of being estranged by Eaton's manner to her father, she felt an impulse of feeling toward him flooding her, a feeling which she tried to explain to herself as sympathy. But it was not just sympathy; she would not say even to herself what it was.
She got up suddenly and went to the door and looked into the hall; a servant came to her.
"Is Mr. Avery still with Mr. Santoine?" she asked.
"No, Miss Santoine; he has gone out."
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How To: Hack Your Xbox Gamerscore
Hack Your Xbox Gamerscore
Nearly everyone has the capacity to be a cheater. Sometime or another, all Xbox users have yearned to get their gamerscore to unimaginable thresholds—for bragging and egotistical purposes. I can relate to this desire. However, I also don't want to mod my gamerscore, because it's just unfair and not nearly as much fun as doing it the honest way. To me, it's synonymous to entering the cheats into a game after you've beaten it. Cheats can add new life into a game once you're done, but since the same can't be done with a gamerscore, we're going to mod a secondary gamertag. This will let us play with gamerscore modding and see how it is done—without messing up our actual gamertag.
Requirements
• Windows
• Horizon
• Secondary gamertag saved to a USB storage device
• Profile Editor
Warnings
• Don't mod your real gamerscore. That can get you banned from Xbox Live. If you think cheating on gamerscore is worth losing Xbox Live over, it's your loss.
Step 1 Download Tools & Prepare Your Gamertag
First, we need to equip ourselves with the necessary tool set.
1. Download Horizon.
2. Download Xbox Profile Editor.
3. Connect your USB device holding your gamertag to your computer.
4. Open Horizon, and pop open the USB device tab on the right.How to Hack Your Xbox Gamerscore
5. Navigate to your gamertag, then right-click and extract it to your desktop.
Step 2 Change Your Gamerscore
Modding Points
1. Right-click Profile Editor and run it as an administrator.
2. Open your gamertag.How to Hack Your Xbox Gamerscore
3. Easily select the game and pick achievements from the list to modify.
Rehash & Resign to Device
We need to recalculate the hash of this file so that the Xbox sees it as uncorrupt.
1. Drag and drop your gamertag into Horizon.
2. Click the Rehash and Resign button.
3. Drag the save back into the folder that you got it from on your USB device.
Remember, cheating is bad! Just have fun with this, and don't ruin the online experience for others.
Follow and Chat with Null Byte!
Photo by lintmachine
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7 Comments
yea but if ur caught they set it back to 0 :(
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Page:Harper's New Monthly Magazine - v109.djvu/977
Godfrey (sitting down in reading-chair). That is more like it, I think. May I smoke?
Eve. Really you have a remarkable memory—for trifles. Why, there is Les Misérables still on your reading-desk. Where was it that we left off?
Godfrey. Book the Fourth and in the middle of a chapter. See, there is the marker.
Eve (indifferently). Ah, yes. By the way, I never finished it. Did you find the continuation interesting ?
Godfrey (absently). I don't remember—no, I think not. I am afraid that I have grown tired of Hugo. And then Jean Valjean is so amiable and long-suffering—he wearies me.
Eve. Yes.
Eve (looking up). Really, we are sitting here quite as if it were the most natural thing in the world. [With a yawn.] Heavens! How stupid it used to be!
Godfrey. Except when we had something to talk about.
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How to Stay Healthy and Boost Immunity During Monsoons
43
Boost Immunity During Monsoons
Monsoon brings respite from the torrid heat of the Indian summer. However, the season also ushers in various diseases. One becomes more susceptible to waterborne diseases like cholera, typhoid, diarrhoea, and dysentery. One also becomes more vulnerable to diseases like colds, flu, viral fever, skin allergies, etc.
This season affects immunity as well as metabolism. These reasons make it extremely essential to stay healthy during the monsoon season. Mindful eating, hydration, and regular exercise go a long way in ensuring good health and immunity.
Water
The World Health Organisation (WHO) has named contaminated water as a critical public health issue in our country. The tap water at homes, is usually not fit for consumption. The same is the case for storage tanks. Ordinary water filters cannot remove all these impurities. Which is why, one should either drink boiled water or use a trusted water purifier. You should also ensure that water purifiers are serviced and cleaned regularly.
When you go out, it is advisable to avoid drinking water from unknown places. You should also try carrying your own water.
Hygiene
Be it at home or work, one needs to make sure one’s surroundings are clean. Due to factors like waterlogging, there is a rise in the number of mosquitoes, that can cause life-threatening diseases. There are also higher chances of water contamination. This increases the possibility of transmission of communicable diseases.
To prevent mosquito breeding, you need to ensure you don’t allow water to stagnate in your surroundings. You can use mosquito repellents on exposed body parts or wear full-sleeved clothes.
Read related articles Children and Constipation
You also need to ensure that you wash your hands regularly, especially if you have been out. One should not touch one’s eyes, nose, and mouth with unwashed hands. You need to ensure, that if you get drenched in the rain, you bathe and dry your hair immediately. You should also make sure to avoid wearing damp clothes and shoes.
Food
Food is another factor that needs to be taken utmost care of. One of the easiest ways to do so is by eating home-cooked food. Fast food, junk food, juice, and pre-cut fruits or vegetables from roadside stalls should be avoided. Raw vegetables and fruits should be cleaned thoroughly. One should also ensure that food is fresh and properly cooked.
Eating seasonal fruits and citrus fruits is a great way to boost immunity. Fruits like apple, guava, banana, papaya, plums, can be consumed.
Eating a protein-rich diet is also a great way to boost immunity and build muscles. Dals, chicken, eggs, curd, paneer, etc are rich sources of protein.
Adding garlic, green tea, ginger, turmeric, nuts, and green leafy vegetables to one’s diet is also a great way to improve immunity.
Regular Exercise:
Rains can disrupt regular routines. Jogging tracks may get inundated with rainwater, or heavy rains may prevent you from visiting your favorite gym.Moreover, the current pandemic has brought everything to a standstill. With gyms shut, and social distancing the need of the hour, getting your daily dose of exercise just got a bit complicated.
However, this should not interfere with you remaining fit. It is even more essential to exercise now. You can do some light exercise, or yoga and stretching, at home itself. Simple exercises like squats, push-ups, and lunges work wonders. Exercise also helps boost immunity, which is especially useful during the rains.
Read related articles The Secret Behind Tips For Complete Body And Skin Care
One should try to follow these simple steps to remain healthy during the rains.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Whittlestone Head railway station
Whittlestone Head railway station served the hamlet of Whittlestone Head, Lancashire, England, in 1848 on the Blackburn, Darwen and Bolton Railway.
History
The station was opened on 12 June 1848 by the Bolton, Blackburn, Clitheroe and West Yorkshire Railway. It was a very short-lived station, only being open for one and a half months before closing on 1 August 1848. It was replaced by the current Entwistle station.
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Page:United States Statutes at Large Volume 97.djvu/1194
97 STAT. 1162 PUBLIC LAW 98-181—NOV. 30, 1983 ment on, any substantial change proposed to be made in the usc 42 USC 5306. of funds received under section 106 from one eligible activity to another."; and (6) by adding at the end thereof the following new sentence: "Any final statement of activities may be modified or amended from time to time by the grantee in accordance with the same procedures required in this paragraph for the preparation and submission of such statement.". 42 USC 5304. (c) Section 104(b) of such Act is amended— (1) by inserting before the semicolon at the end of paragraph (2) the following: ", and the grantee will affirmatively further fair housing"; (2) by striking out "and" at the end of paragraph (3); (3) by redesignating paragraph (4) as paragraph (6); and (4) by inserting after paragraph (3) the following new paragraphs: "(4) it has developed a community development plan, for the period specified by the grantee under paragraph (3), that identi- fies community development and housing needs and specifies both short- and long-term community development objectives that have been developed in accordance with the primary objec- tive and requirements of this title; "(5) the grantee will not attempt to recover any capital costs of public improvements assisted in whole or part under section 42 USC 5306. 106 or with amounts resulting from a guarantee under section 42 USC 5308. 108 by assessing any amount against properties owned and 31 USC 1305. occupied by persons of low and moderate income, including any fee charged or assessment made as a condition of obtaining access to such public improvements, unless (A) funds received under section 106 are used to pay the proportion of such fee or assessment that relates to the capital costs of such public improvements that are financed from revenue sources other than under this title; or (B) for purposes of assessing any amount against properties owned and occupied by persons of low and moderate income who are not persons of very low income, the grantee certifies to the Secretary that it lacks sufficient funds received under section 106 to comply with the requirements of subparagraph (A); and". (d) Section 104(c)(l)(A) of such Act is amended by inserting after "community" the first place it appears the following: "(including the number of vacant and abandoned dwelling units)". (e) Section 104(d) of such Act is amended— (1) by inserting "and evaluation" after "performance" in the first sentence; (2) by inserting "and to the requirements of subsection (b)(3)" after "subsection (a)" in the first sentence; and Report. (3) by inserting after the first sentence the following: "Such report shall also be made available to the citizens in each grantee's jurisdiction in sufficient time to permit such citizens to comment on such report prior to its submission, and in such manner and at such times as the grantee may determine. The grantee's report shall indicate its programmatic accomplish- ments, the nature of and reasons for changes in the grantee's program objectives, indications of how the grantee would change its programs as a result of its experiences, and an evaluation of the extent to which, its funds were used for activities that benefited low- and moderate-income persons. The
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Talk:Dominic Nitiwul
Infobox
Many parameters in the infobox are not filled in. If they are not applicable, the parameters may be deleted. Yoninah (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
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Saurodactylus
Saurodactylus is genus of geckos endemic to Northern Africa, better known as lizard-fingered geckos.
Species
The genus is listed as containing 7 species:
* Saurodactylus brosseti (Bons & Pasteur, 1957) - Morocco lizard-fingered gecko
* Saurodactylus elmoudenii Javanmardi, Vogler, & Joger, 2019
* Saurodactylus fasciatus Werner, 1931 - banded-toed gecko or banded lizard-fingered gecko
* Saurodactylus harrisii Javanmardi, Vogler, & Joger, 2019
* Saurodactylus mauritanicus (Duméril & Bibron, 1836) - Morocco lizard-fingered gecko
* Saurodactylus slimanii Javanmardi, Vogler, & Joger, 2019
* Saurodactylus splendidus Javanmardi, Vogler, & Joger, 2019
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FRET Aptamer-Based Glucose Sensor for the Rotating Space BioReactor
Award Information
Agency:
National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Branch
n/a
Amount:
$68,277.00
Award Year:
2003
Program:
SBIR
Phase:
Phase I
Contract:
NAS9-03011
Agency Tracking Number:
023078
Solicitation Year:
n/a
Solicitation Topic Code:
n/a
Solicitation Number:
n/a
Small Business Information
OmniSite BioDiagnostics, Inc.
101 W. Sixth Street, Suite 200, Austin, TX, 78701
Hubzone Owned:
N
Socially and Economically Disadvantaged:
N
Woman Owned:
N
Duns:
n/a
Principal Investigator:
John Bruno
Principal Investigator
(512) 479-7732
bruno@spec.com
Business Contact:
Austin Sequeira
CEO
(512) 479-7732
sequeira@spec.com
Research Institution:
n/a
Abstract
OmniSite BioDiagnostics Inc. (OmniSite) proposes to develop a novel DNA aptamer against glucose for the purpose of monitoring glucose levels in the rotating space bioreactor and eventually in astronauts or other human subjects. Aptamers are short (40?60 base) DNA or RNA chains selected from a randomized library for their affinity to a given immobilized target molecule (e.g., glucose). After several iterations of affinity selection followed by PCR amplification, rare high affinity oligonucleotides from the original random library emerge and dominate the nucleic acid population. If DNA aptamers are raised against glucose and then cloned and sequenced, they can be engineered with an intrachain fluorophore and quencher pair to fluoresce upon binding of glucose, because the fluorophore would be released from its quenched state (released from fluorescence resonance energy transfer; FRET). The fluorescence intensity would be proportional to the amount of glucose bound to the aptamers, thus enabling construction of a quantitative glucose sensor. Because DNA can be heated to release any bound target molecules, the sensor could be heat and flushed to make it reusable (a desirable feature for the space bioreactor to obviate frequent sensor maintenance). The entire sensor could eventually be constructed at the end of a fiber optic cable making it miniature and implantable in the bioreactor or in human subjects.
* information listed above is at the time of submission.
Agency Micro-sites
US Flag An Official Website of the United States Government
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Is your outside drain blocked and you're not sure what to do?
You’re not alone. Blocked drains are extremely common. But fear not – we’re here to help. As Newcastle’s leading plumbing team, we’re here to break down what to do when you’re faced with the sudden realisation of “My outside drain is blocked! What now!?”
There’s no doubt about it – a blocked outside drain can be a huge headache. When customers call us panicked with one of the most common statements: “my outside drain is blocked”, we understand how frustrating their concern can be.
If you’ve ever had a blocked outside drain, you’re probably familiar with that foul-smelling odour and potentially water or fluid rising and flooding an external area. Even if you’re somewhat aware of how your home’s drainage operates, the process of how to clean outside drains is generally more of a challenge than internal drains. Outside drains can be difficult to access and more complex than indoor systems in your kitchen or bathroom. Additionally, as most internal plumbing connects to your outdoor drains, it could be any number of reasons that have contributed to a blockage.
In this article, we are going to give you some tips and advice on how to unblock a drain outside, why drains get blocked and the signs and symptoms of a blocked drain.
How Do I Know If My Outside Drain Is Blocked?
When trying to fix a blocked drain, it is important to know the signs and symptoms of a blocked outdoor drain, as well as what causes a blockage.
Some simple ways to tell if your drain is blocked is by looking out for the following symptoms:
Smell: Often a displeasing odour will result from the build-up of fluids and items in your plumbing systems
Sink Drainage: When a drain is blocked or partially obstructed, water will take an increased amount of time to drain from your sink
Toilet Drainage: Toilets may overflow of experience water rises after flushing
Sounds: You may hear gurgling sounds from your plughole
How Can I Unblock a Drain Outside?
If you find yourself with an outside blocked drain, chances are you will probably have googled ‘How to unblock a drain outside’. This can generate a whole number of search results, each with their own methods and (frankly, unreliable) remedies for unblocking your drain.
With these online guides, throw caution to the wind. While googling prevention tips can be extremely helpful, we have seen far too many households attempt to unblock drains on their own, only to have made their situation worse.
A quick search cannot replace the skills of a trained plumber. Plumbers inspect and fix blocked drains every day. Each drain is slightly different and will require its own unique methods to unblock it. It is also important to note that you want to use the least invasive method possible, reduce the amount of chemicals used and ensure a healthy and functioning drain in the long run. So, while we can’t give you a step by step on how to clear out your outdoor drain, we can provide some simple tips that will contribute to a clean, healthy drainage system.
1. Leaves and Debris
In many outdoor blocked drains, the causes are a simple build of up of leaves, debris, and silt. This is quite common around grates and guttering. Often this build up is easily visible and simple to remove. By regularly clearing out leaves and debris, you can also prevent any outdoor drainage problems from reoccurring.
2. Chemical Drain Cleaners
Too many residents look for a quick fix, and not the long-term solution for blocked drains. If you’re one of the many thinking, “My outside drain is blocked; better grab the draino!”, it’s time to put the big bottle of toxic chemicals down.
While some drain cleaners are fine and can provide relief for a simple blocked drain, too many people often either use harsh chemicals, use them incorrectly, or use too much, without remedying their blockage. When putting these harsh chemicals into your plumbing, you risk seriously damaging your plumbing infrastructure. What’s more, not addressing the cause of your drain headache will only mean it will reoccur in a couple of weeks time.
3. Call An Expert Plumber
Expert Plumbers such as those at CDL work on blocked outdoors drains every day. If you call us and say, “my outside drain is blocked!”, we will get to you right away to remediate your blocked drain. While it may be tempting to choose DIY methods to cut down on costs. However, if you take on the burden of a DIY method, you’re only going to put a strain on your plumbing fixtures down the line.
At CDL, we pride ourselves on delivering value to our customers and only charge what is fair. Additionally, although home remedies can work short term, we have seen far too many clients who only made matters worse and needed extensive plumbing services to fix their problem. If you call in a trained plumber for your blocked drain services, you’re guaranteed an expert who will diagnose the blockage, provide a solution and ensure there are prevention methods in place to avoid the blockage from reoccurring.
So, Why Is My Outside Drain is Blocked?
When it comes to reducing issues from blocked drains, prevention is key. It is better to take steps to keep your drains clear and healthy rather than waiting for something to go wrong and then looking for a solution.
The easiest way to start doing this is by being conscious about what you put into your pipes. Not everything can simply be flushed down the toilet or pass through your drains. The causes of many blocked drains are poor or incorrect disposal of items. These are items which easily build up or are not designed to pass-through plumbing and drainage systems.
Main Causes of a Blocked Outdoor Drain:
These are common items that you should avoid flushing or putting down the drain. When customers call us up saying “my outside drain is blocked”, often, it is because they have flushed a number of items without any consideration to where they will end up.
My Outside Drain is Blocked. Who Do I Call?
Outside drain blocked? Should you require the expert services of CDL plumbing for assistance with a blocked outdoor drain or other plumbing matters, please do not hesitate to call us on 0499 192 821 or submit an enquiry through our contact page. Newcastle’s leading plumbing team, we’ve got your drains covered at CDL.
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Bob Ferrell
Robert Steven Ferrell (born November 13, 1952, in Los Angeles, California ) is a former professional American football running back who played for five seasons for the San Francisco 49ers of the National Football League.
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Excretory system of gastropods
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The excretory system of gastropods removes nitrogenous waste and maintains the internal water balance of these creatures, commonly referred to as snails and slugs. The primary organ of excretion is a nephridium.
Structure[edit]
The most primitive gastropods retain two nephridia, but in the great majority of species, the right nephridium has been lost, leaving a single excretory organ, located in the anterior part of the visceral mass. The nephridium projects into the main venous sinus in the animal's foot. The circulatory fluid of gastropods, known as haemolymph directly bathes the tissues, where it supplies them with oxygen and absorbs carbon dioxide and nitrogenous waste, a necessary waste product of metabolism. From the arterial sinuses bathing the tissues, it drains into the venous sinus, and thus flows past the nephridium.
The main body cavity of most aquatic gastropods also includes pericardial glands, often located above the heart. These secrete waste into the haemolymph, prior to further filtration in the nephridium. Pulmonates lack these glands, so that the nephridium is the only major organ of excretion.
In some gastropods, the nephridium opens directly into the sinus, but more usually, there is a small duct, referred to as the renopericardial canal. In aquatic gastropods, the nephridium is drained by a ureter that opens near the rear of the mantle cavity. This allows the flow of water through the cavity to flush out the excreta. Terrestrial pulmonates instead have a much longer ureter, that opens near the anus.
In addition to the pericardial glands and nephridum, excretory cells are also present in the digestive glands opening into the stomach. These glands have a metabolic function, somewhat similar to that of the vertebrate liver, and excrete waste products directly into the digestive system, where it is voided with the faeces.
Water balance[edit]
In aquatic gastropods, the waste product is invariably ammonia, which rapidly dissolves in the surrounding water. In the case of freshwater species, the nephridium also resorbs a significant amount of salt in order to prevent its loss through osmosis into the surrounding water.
Terrestrial species instead excrete insoluble uric acid, which allows them to maintain their internal water balance. Even so, most species require a somewhat humid environment, and secrete a considerable amount of water in their slime trail. Those few species that dwell in arid environments typically hibernate or aestivate during dry periods to preserve moisture.
References[edit]
Barnes, Robert D. (1982). Invertebrate Zoology. Philadelphia, PA: Holt-Saunders International. pp. 364–365. ISBN 0-03-056747-5.
External links[edit]
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Abbey of Saint Mary of the Valley of Jehosaphat
Abbey of Saint Mary of the Valley of Jehosaphat was a Benedictine abbey situated east of the Old City of Jerusalem, founded by Godfrey of Bouillon on the believed site of the Tomb of the Virgin Mary.
History
The abbey was built near a Byzantine church containing the shrine of Mary's Assumption. The first monks of the abbey were from Godfrey's entourage. They managed the Church of Saint Mary, the Grotto of the Agony, and the Church of Gethsemane, all located near the Mount of Olives.
Arnulf of Chocques renovated the church in 1112. Queen Morphia was buried there, starting a precedent whereby queens of Jerusalem were buried apart from their husbands, who were entombed in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. In 1120, King Baldwin II installed his cousin Gilduin of Le Puiset, son of Hugh I of Le Puiset, as abbot. Queen Melisende was also buried there.
Early travelers described the church and grotto in their travelogues. These include Descriptio terrae sanctae (Description of the Holy Land) by German priest John of Würzburg (fl. 1160s) and Libellus de Locis Sanctis attributed to the unknown monk Theoderich (12th century).
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Page:United States Statutes at Large Volume 108 Part 3.djvu/175
PUBLIC LAW 103-322—SEPT. 13, 1994 108 STAT. 1927 duress, or fraud and, in the course or as a result of that conduct, intentionally commits a crime of violence and thereby causes bodily injury to the person's spouse or intimate partner, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b). "(b) PENALTIES.— ^A person who violates this section shall be fined under this title, imprisoned— "(1) for life or any term of years, if death of the offender's spouse or intimate partner results; "(2) for not more than 20 years if permanent disfigurement or life threatening bodily injury to the offender's spouse or intimate partner results; "(3) for not more than 10 years, if serious bodily injury to the offender's spouse or intimate partner results or if the offender uses a dangerous weapon during the offense; "(4) as provided for the applicable conduct under chapter 109A if the offense would constitute an offense under chapter 109A (without regard to whether the offense was committed in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison); and "(5) for not more than 5 years, in any other case, or both fined and imprisoned. " (a) OFFENSES.— "(1) CROSSING A STATE LINE.—^A person who travels across a State line or enters or leaves Indian country with the intent to engage in conduct that— "(A)(i) violates the portion of a protection order that involves protection against credible threats of violence, repeated harassment, or bodily injury to the person or persons for whom the protection order was issued; or "(ii) would violate subparagraph (A) if the conduct occurred in the jurisdiction in which the order was issued; and "(B) subsequently engages in such conduct, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b). "(2) CAUSING THE CROSSING OF A STATE LINE.— A person who causes a spouse or intimate partner to cross a State line or to enter or leave Indian country by force, coercion, duress, or fraud, and, in the course or as a result of that conduct, intentionally commits an act that injures the person's spouse or intimate partner in violation of a valid protection order issued by a State shall be punished as provided in subsection (b). "(b) PENALTIES. —^A person who violates this section shall be fined under this title, imprisoned— "(1) for life or any term of years, if death of the offender's spouse or intimate partner results; "(2) for not more than 20 years if permanent disfigurement or life threatening bodily injury to the offender's spouse or intimate partner results; "(3) for not more than 10 years, if serious bodily injury to the offender's spouse or intimate partner results or if the offender uses a dangerous weapon during the offense; "(4) as provided for the applicable conduct under chapter 109A if the offense would constitute an offense under chapter 109A (without regard to whether the offense was committed
* § 2262. Interstate violation of protection order
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Dessì
Dessì is an Italian surname, and may refer to:
* Daniela Dessì (1957–2016), Italian soprano
* Emanuele Dessì (born 1964), Italian politician
* Giuseppe Dessì (1909–1977), Italian writer from Sardinia
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Tokyo Prince Hotel Park Tower
THE BASICS It's all about the view at the 33-story Tokyo Prince Hotel Park Tower, which opened last year and offers patrons sublime nighttime panoramas of the Tokyo Tower, the electric nightlife of the Shinjuku district and the sprawling Roppongi Hills hotel, business, and entertainment complex. The latest luxury oasis from Prince Hotels is itself a miracle of self-containment: high-speed elevators whisk you to and from the 673 guest rooms and 14 restaurants and bars, 3 wedding chapels, a bowling alley, a karaoke party room and various shopping boutiques. Inside, the décor features burbling fountains, quiet hallways and warmly lighted wood and glass; outside, well-manicured, flower-filled grounds invite a stroll. THE LOCATION At the foot of the Tokyo Tower in Shiba Park, a dense green oasis. Nearby, the Azabu Juban neighborhood has plenty of traditional mom-and-pop food shops, and business workers stop in pub-filled Shinbashi to let off steam before going home. THE ROOMS Lacquered wood furniture, flat-screen televisions and an array of free snacks and beverages (including the curiously named Pocari Sweat, a sports beverage) in the minibar. Plump pillows and duvets cover the beds. Other than a few off-note details -- 1970's-style leather armchairs, molded-plastic tables, vinyl-topped nightstands -- the rooms are modern and functional and include high-speed Internet access. Garden suites have traditional Japanese screens and tatami floors. THE BATHROOMS Deep soaking Jacuzzis, a separate glass shower stall, marble floors, generous mirrored vanities stocked with toothbrushes, toothpaste, mouthwash, razors, hairbrushes and shaving foam. The toilet is housed in a room down the hall, with the usual array of buttons particular to Japanese bathrooms, activating things like the heated seat and the bidet. THE CROWD Dark-suited business types, both male and female. I spotted several on break from various conferences, peering, briefcases in hand, into boutique windows in the lobby. AMENITIES The spa and fitness center, though well-equipped with a lap pool and hot soaking pools, requires an additional fee of 4,200 yen (about $37.75, at 111 yen to the dollar) a day per person. At that price, I made sure to take full advantage of the Shiseido and Molton Brown products in the luxurious women's locker room. The fitness and business centers operate from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. There is free parking and a shuttle service to the Japan Rail Hamamatsu-cho station. ROOM SERVICE Available 24 hours. The self-service menu on the television was difficult to work, and when I called room service, no one answered. Finally, I called reception, and a very apologetic room service attendant called back. A breakfast order that included eggs, sausage, toast, coffee, fresh-squeezed juice and yogurt -- an eye-popping 3,700 yen ($33.50) -- was placed at 9:17 a.m. and arrived 20 minutes later. THE BOTTOM LINE A large, modern full-service hotel with an attentive staff. Room rates are reasonable for Tokyo but beware of the extras, which can add up. When making a reservation, it pays to join the Prince Club International; it's free and offers deals and breakfast coupons. Doubles start at 25,000 yen ($225). Tokyo Prince Hotel Park Tower, 4-8-1 Shiba Koen, Minato-ku; 81-3-5400-1111; www.princehotelsjapan.com. BONNIE TSUI
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Coat of arms of North Ossetia
The Coat of arms of the Republic of North Ossetia–Alania, a federal subject of Russia, is a red disc featuring a Caucasian leopard with seven white mountains in the background. The mountains symbolize the Ossetian landscape, while the leopard is an iconic inhabitant of the Caucasus mountains.
Terek Oblast
Under the Russian Empire, the territory of present-day North Ossetia was a part of the Terek Oblast. The coat of arms of the Terek Oblast was approved on 15 March 1873.
North Ossetian ASSR
The North Ossetian ASSR was formed on 5 December 1936. The 1940 edition of the constitution stated:
"The state emblem of the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic is the state emblem of the RSFSR, which consists of a golden sickle and hammer placed crosswise, handles downward, on a red background in the sun and framed by ears of corn, with the inscription 'RSFSR' and 'Proletarians of all countries, unite!' in Russian and Ossetian languages (РСФСР/УСФСР) (ӔППӔТ БӔСТӔТЫ ПРОЛЕТАРТӔ БАИУ УТ!) and the addition of, under the inscription reading "RSFSR", a smaller inscription reading 'North Ossetian ASSR' in both Russian and Ossetian languages. (ЦӔГАТ-ИРЫСТОНЫ АССР)" (Article 111).
In 1978 both the arms of the North Ossetian ASSR and the emblem of the RSFSR were modified to include a red star.
Republic of North Ossetia–Alania
On 24 November 1994 the Parliament of North Ossetia, an autonomous republic within Russian Federation, approved and enacted Act No. 521, which had the country adopt a coat of arms designed by Murat Dzhigkayev. The prototype for the emblem was based on Vakhushti of Kartli’s “Banner of Ossetia”, dated 1735.
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David S. Yost
David S. Yost (born 1948) is a professor at the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California, in the Department of National Security Affairs, as well as a published author on international security, missile defense and nuclear deterrence. Dr. Yost has been a consultant to various organizations, including the Rand Corporation, the Hudson Institute, the Ford Foundation, the National Institute for Public Policy (NIPP), Sandia National Laboratories, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and Los Alamos National Laboratory. He is a member of the editorial board of Comparative Strategy sponsored by NIPP and serves on the advisory council (Conseil Scientifique) of the Laboratoire de Recherche sur la Défense, Institut Français des Relations Internationales, Paris. He has been a member of the faculty at the Naval Postgraduate School since 1979.
Education and fellowships
Dr. Yost earned a PhD in international relations at the University of Southern California in 1976. He worked in the Department of Defense, primarily in the Office of Net Assessment, in 1984–1986, while holding fellowships from NATO and the Council on Foreign Relations. He was a fellow in international security studies at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Smithsonian Institution in 1986; a visiting scholar at the School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University, in 1986–1987; a Fulbright research fellow in Paris in 1990–1991; a visiting professor and research associate at the Centre des Hautes Études de l'Armement, École Militaire, Paris, in 1993–1994; a senior fellow at the United States Institute of Peace in Washington, D.C., in 1996–1997; and a senior research fellow at the NATO Defense College in Rome in 2004–2007.
Research interests and publications
Dr. Yost's research interests include NATO; European security; U.S. national security policy; nuclear deterrence; missile defense; arms control; political philosophy; and international relations theory. He has written extensively and been published on many of these subjects.
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Talk:Kiwi Farms/Archive 2
Suicide of Near
I'm going to move this to the talk page per. I think that you are the most recent editors to the page, so tagging you here. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:24, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* So far the arguments for including it center around coverage while the arguments against center around there being no confirmation of the death, if I understand properly. (I keep this page on my watch list, so thought I'd go ahead and start a discussion to get things rolling.) ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Here's the coverage thus far:
* Kotaku
* Nintendo Life
* GameRant
* I don't know if I missed anything, I'm trying to stick to just the sites known to be RS on here. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:29, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* So far there are 2 sources (of which I find reliable) that talk about the sucicide and Kiwi Farm's association, and I'm not sure if there's any specific policy on this. Maybe WP:BLPCRIME is of use? — Berrely • Talk∕Contribs 12:30, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Tentative with GameRant, they often overdramaticise stories, and their sister site, ScreenRant is generally unreliable with BLP related news per WP:RSP — Berrely • Talk∕Contribs 12:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Thanks! I don't edit super frequently on game topics so I sometimes forget which are or aren't usable when they pop up so frequently and visibly in a search. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* My largest concern here is the lack of confirmation. An individual made a series of posts that implied they were going to take their life, which I don't think anyone is disputing, and which is tragic in its own right. I know we may never get true proof-of-death, which is always an issue with these sorts of topics (be it a natural death, divorce, date of birth, or other things that don't usually get widely reported as part of a person's normal life). This could have been a cry for help, or only an attempt (i.e. they could be in the hospital now recovering), or they backed out at the last minute and are too ashamed to resurface online (the list goes on, and less charitable, so I'll stop there).
* There certainly could be room for including it as a "look what Kiwi did to this person" (i.e. the posts, the response, etc), but do we then include every such instance that makes the press? Primefac (talk) 12:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Maybe then the wording could be changed to make it sound less definitive? “In June 2021, following a series of posts claiming they were going to take their own life, SNES emulation developer "Near" was reported to have taken their own life due to harrasement received from Kiwi Farms” or something similar to that. — Berrely • Talk∕Contribs 12:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* I am not sure if it meets our requirements. Kiwi Farms is mentioned in passing in the Kotaku article. Meanwhile, the Nintendo Life article does not actually mention it. Instead, one of the embedded tweets discusses it. I do not feel that there is enough usable content here at this time. ― Susmuffin Talk 18:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* According to someone close to Near on Twitter, the police confirmed their death. In addition, supposedly the story was reported on Nippon TV, but I do not yet have a source for this. --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 13:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Problem is, although it's very likely, we have no way of 100% confirming this. — Berrely • Talk∕Contribs 13:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Hopefully (from an RS perspective) if it's actually on Nippon TV someone else will pick it up. Primefac (talk) 13:20, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* Here's a screen capture, if it helps. --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 13:32, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* This is a photoshop by a malevolent party. Aside from the transphobic language used in the overlays ("Deaths: 1, mortality rate: 41% (and rising)", "41%" being a buzzword on transphobic sites like Kiwi Farms): The "reaction shot" in the bottom left corner is a 2017 (or older) picture of Masatoshi Hamada, a famous Japanese comedian. As ubiquituous as live reactions are on Japanese TV, news almost never have reaction boxes, and certainly not with still images of comedians. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:11, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
* There's another coverage by an RS:
* Video Games Chronicle
* On another note, GameRant is deemed unreliable on WP:VG/S (if it has any relevance here), also with what Berrely has mentioned above. LightKeyDarkBlade (talk) 14:29, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* That's just a rehash of the NintendoLife article, fwiw. Primefac (talk) 14:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* That's true. I'm just adding to the list of coverage we have so far. But to a certain extent, you can also argue that the articles are all more and less the same since they're all using almost the same primary sources (i.e. Near's tweets, the mutual friend's tweets). VGC just decided to cite Nintendo Life.
* By the way, it seems that the Nintendo Life's article as well as Kotaku has an update where the mutual friend had spoken to the police department. So take note of this, everyone. LightKeyDarkBlade (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
* By the way, it seems that the Nintendo Life's article as well as Kotaku has an update where the mutual friend had spoken to the police department. So take note of this, everyone. LightKeyDarkBlade (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Zero actual proof of him killing himself other than some google doc that literally anyone could make up. Probably best to take this off until there is some actual real-world proof of death Honey-badger24 (talk) 06:34, 29 June 2021 (UTC) I can confirm that David Kirk Ginder alias Byuu/Near was cremated today in Tokyo. I have photographic evidence of his funeral from colleagues that attended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electricfrog (talk • contribs) 11:29, 15 July 2021 (UTC) Looks like the original google doc was deleted anyway. Didn't the police confirmed Near's death? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 14:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
* No. The guy who posted the doc claims to have contacted the police and confirmed his death, but the police in Japan will not just tell any random person information like that due to the very strict personal information and privacy laws we have here ( I've lived in Japan for the past 20+ years). So, Héctor Martín Cantero is mistaken at best (maybe his language skills suck?) Or more likely, lying. What reason he has to lie is unknown. But, I think this is all just a LARP by someone who wants to get Kiwi Farms taken down even though they've done nothing illegal at all Honey-badger24 (talk) 01:23, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* If you have a RS casting doubt on it, feel free to provide it. But right now we have multiple reliable sources credulously reporting Cantero's story, and no contradictory sources. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:30, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* Where are these sources? What is their proof other than Cantero, who claims to have confirmed, which is basically impossible to do unless he is family. The only sources that seem to be linked are places like Kotaku and Vice etc. Who bring no new evidence at all as proof. What are the reliable sources you're talking about? I genuinely want to know, because this case interests me. I'm not claiming to have any sources. I'm just saying ONE guy saying something in a tweet should not be taken at face value. Especially when it seems rather improbable. There's ZERO actual proof either way. So why is this article treating it as fact?Honey-badger24 (talk) 01:38, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* Answered below so as to not have two threads going at once. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:48, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* Also "Cantero subsequently reported he had spoken to police who confirmed Near's death on June 27, 2021." this is heresay. There is no proof other than Cantero saying he did it. This should be re-worded to: "Cantero subsequently claimed he had spoken to police who confirmed Near's death on June 27, 2021." Otherwise anyone could Tweet something like "Near isn't dead, he's actually an alien and he just phoned home" and you'd have to put it in here. One tweet claiming something that is pretty much impossible to have done isn't something that should be on here. Maybe even removing the whole part about Near would be better until actual proof either way has been released. At the moment there's no concrete proof at all other than one guy making claims that are quite frankly very hard to believe. Honey-badger24 (talk) 01:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* See WP:CLAIM. The statement is being accurately attributed rather than presented as a 100% statement of fact, but there is so far no reliably-sourced doubt as to its accuracy. Regarding "anyone could tweet...", that's not true—someone would have to tweet that and then reliable sources would have to report upon it as a credible claim. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:34, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* (edit conflict) Cantero subsequently reported is a neutral, accurate statement of fact. It does not give undue authority to Cantero as a source of verification for Near's death - in fact, avoiding doing so is why I changed it yesterday. Please keep in mind, Wikipedia does not allow original research, so your 20 years living in Japan isn't useful for changing this article. --Equivamp - talk 01:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* By that logic Cantero's research is also original research, so why is that left in? Literally EVERY link used in regards to Near's alleged suicide in this article just links to Cantero's Tweets. They bring no new information at all. They just circle back to his tweets about it. So, Wikipedia uses unverified information from Tweets as a valid source of information now?Honey-badger24 (talk) 01:54, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* Please read the policy. If a reliable source repeated your statements about Japanese law and used them to cast doubt on Cantero's credibility, we could use those too, but so far it appears they have not. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:57, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* Fair enough. If you're fine with having an article up that is based on heresay, you go with it. It just makes this site look dumbHoney-badger24 (talk) 02:00, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* So, if one guy tweets something, and some other news sites pick it up and run with it without checking anything (which seems to have happened here, because there's been no actual proof either way), you're supposed to go with that??? Trusting Kotaku and Vice who have added nothing to the story is weird. At least wait until a reputable news service picks it up and looks into the claims Honey-badger24 (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* If reliable news sources report that someone has died based Cantero's tweets, then we can say things like "according to Cantero, Near died by suicide" (and we are currently attributing the statement in such a way). When the RS independently confirm it, we can remove the attribution. We leave it up to reliable sources to determine a statement's credibility, and they seem comfortable with Cantero's claims. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:48, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
David Kirk Gilbert alias Near/Byuu was cremated on July 15th in Tokyo and was attended by some of his colleagues. I have photographic evidence I can provide to any of the authors of this pageElectricfrog (talk) 11:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
* We require reliable, independent sources, so photographs like you are describing are not usable. There are already reliable sources reporting his death (and no contradictory ones). GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 14:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Apparently Joshua Moon (owner of KF) made a few statements about the alleged suicide, perhaps it would be wise to include them within this article? --Jimmy Jimsson (talk) 02:53, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* It's helpful to provide reliable sources to support what you think ought to be added. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 14:52, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
* During the DDOS attack on Kiwifarms, Null (the owner) left up a text statement. Such as "Nobody knows who Byuu is. Even after years, nobody knows his last name. Nobody knows where he lives. Nobody knows where he works. He is completely anonymous and even now it is not possible to do a wellness check on him." https://web.archive.org/web/20210701075204/https://kiwifarms(DOT)net/ <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
* I think this (coupled with the lack of evidence showing any targeted harassment from the site itself) should at least warrant the change in "Following the June 2021 suicide of Near, a software developer who had been a target of harassment from Kiwi Farms users..." to "Following the June 2021 suicide of Near, a software developer who had been allegedly a target of harassment from Kiwi Farms users...". I don't agree with Kiwifarms or their actions towards other people on the web, but I'd also like to keep the facts straight and free of bias. JungleEntity (talk) 16:36, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
* Multiple reliable sources report the harassment, and none have cast doubt on the existence of harassment from the site. Moon's statement is not sufficient to do so—he would [say that], wouldn't he? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:49, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Here is more information about Near's suicide, from USA Today (link is from archive.today because they're paywalling it):. Rux nor 💬 02:41, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
According to the US State Department, no American Citizen died in Japan in late June. Other countries have late June deaths, like Mexico but there is only one American death in Japan on June 11th. Is the the State Department of the United States of America a good enough of a source for Wikipedia to cite? https://i.imgur.com/0YtehhC.png https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/death-abroad1/death-statistics.html <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 01:47, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Another proposal about the "History" section and CWC
The history section honestly reads extremely awkward and confusing. It is quite obvious the author desperately tried to not name CWC in it (e.g. "the name was adapted from its earlier title, "CWCki Forums"" - unfamiliar readers will not understand this sentence at all without any explanation of what "CWCki" stands for or even is; and that's despite the wiki being mentioned one sentence before that one). I understand the individual has been heavily harassed for over 14 years and Wikipedia wants to avoid including him in any article, but so have people in other events of high significance who are still named in corresponding articles related to them (e.g. Zoe Quinn and GamerGate, or Rose Christo in this very article in the context of My Immortal). It also, once again, is inconsistent when someone with the description of "a Canadian woman" named in three sources (of which two are by the same author) seems to be relevant enough to be named in the article, when several other sources already used in the article for other content explicitly reference the CWC situation. That's on top of more sources popping up in the last few weeks that further discuss KiwiFarms history in the context of CWC due to recent events.
Other issues:
* the existing description of CWC is badly sourced. What source calls her a "webcomic artist"? "Online personality" would be more accurate, especially for her activity in recent years which barely included her webcomics, and fits sources on the history of Kiwifarms much more accurately.
* "Despite having the word "Kiwi" in its name, Kiwi Farms has no connection with New Zealand; the name was adapted from its earlier title, "CWCki Forums"." should fall under WP:COPYPASTE, it's barely edited from the source ("Despite having 'Kiwi' in its name, the website has no association with New Zealand; rather, the name was adapted from its former title of 'CWCki Forums'."). I haven't checked whether other parts of the article are like this.
Here are some suggestions:
* complete rewrite - as discussed, a lot of the confusion comes from explictly naming things like "Sonichu" and "CWCki", mixed in with some WP:OR to make it work. If this needs to be the status of this article, it needs to be improved and a more proper description of the situation that is understandable to someone reading this who has never heard of CWC.
* remove any names from the article, unless they are notable by themselves, to make things at least consistent (e.g. Terryburry, Near). I understand the harassment perspective, but this should expand to other individuals if possible.
* rewrite the paragraph to include CWC. Two of the sources used for Terryburry explicitly discuss CWC, and others have popped up since then that explicitly discuss CWC in the context of Kiwifarms's founding (Yahoo, Business Insider). This would be my personal suggestion, as I don't see any issue with it, especially since this page is already protected and I can't think of a good way to rewrite the paragraph as suggested above, which however is absolutely necessary at its given degree of quality.
Small addendum: a rework of sources would be nice, Newshub.co.nz is seemingly not accessible from some EU countries.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
* Feel free to review the various other discussions that have been had recently about adding details about her to Wikipedia. I will make a few wording changes to address your concerns about confusing language, but I'm not going to be adding her name or additional details about her. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 21:51, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
* The discussions you mentioned were concerned about several issues which do not apply anymore and I also referenced. Firstly, almost all sources discussing Kiwifarms also discuss CWC to an extent, and vice-versa. The discussion above that you referenced has not brought up the aforementioned Yahoo and BI articles, which are additional sources for both this and the history of Kiwifarms (the Yahoo article even explicitly referencing your concern about no reputable source documenting CWC's history). There is also this article from Daily Dot in 2019 discussing Kiwifarms and mentioning CWC in the same context as the suicide of Chloe Sagal, which I haven't seen brought up yet. Not including CWC by means of WP:BLPNAME does clearly not apply with several sources explicitly discussing CWC in several contexts of Kiwifarms, even when the situation has nothing to do with one of the two subjects, and naming CWC - there is very arguably more sources than on the Terryberry situation, in fact. Second, I don't see how WP:BLP even applies to this case, simply naming the individual for much-needed context like several other people in the article is not biographic. I don't think any source avoids naming CWC, quite the opposite especially after recent events. It is not Wikipedia's role to decide whether or not including the name by media is appropriate or not, the name can be sourced from several reputable websites, including sources already used in the article, without issues. Thirdly, WP:BLP1E, which you also brought up, is exactly what I pointed out as being applied inconsistently. If you want to only include living people, then why is Rose Christo named? She also has been victim of harassment from Kiwifarms due to the situation described in this article. Yet nobody on the My Immortal talk page has brought up any comparable concerns, nor has the name been removed from this article despite those concerns and you seemingly even agreeing in the discussion you referenced. Considering that and no urgency on this issue, I honestly do not see any risk from also naming CWC in this article. Additionally, WP:BLP1E is about being biographic and not shortly mentioning the person to a topic they are clearly relevant to as attended by several sources. This seems even more inconsistent to me considering someone like Terry A. Davis has a full, highly detailed article dedicated to him beyond any of his development achievements, despite arguably being another victim of internet harassment and having received notability mostly for that. Fourthly, I am not trying to discuss adding a full biography of CWC but simply naming the person so the paragraph can be written in a somewhat understandable manner without having to jump through hoops and making it incomprehensible for anyone who never heard of Sonichu or doesn't understand what CWC stands for. I understand your concerns due to some people wanting this kind of "recognition", but that should not be what leads Wikipedia's quality. Lastly, the current version still is just horrendous and full of WP:OR. Where does the "imageboard" claim come from (that's not part of the NY Mag source)? It still calls her an "artist" without any source. And why not just call her an "online personality" when this is attested by several sources? This response has been incredibly long already, but I'll try to provide an alternative in a follow-up. --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
* You might have more success in getting people to believe that you are here in good faith and not simply looking to further the harassment campaign against her if you didn't repeatedly misgender her in your comments. Just a tip. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 23:57, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
* Sorry about that, it's honestly difficult to keep consistent while going through sources and discussing her 2007 era (when she did not come out yet and for which I misgendered), especially as a non-native speaker. I've corrected the instances, let me know if I missed anything. I also avoided voicing concerns about your agenda not being completely unbiased based on perceived inconsistencies in your application of WP:BLP, so it would be great if we can assume good faith in this discussion and improve the article.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* I would like to add one more source, which is an academic one. Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment discusses online harassment and explicitly mentions and discusses the dynamics of Kiwi Farms several times in a multitude of contexts. Besides detailed discussions on other topics unrelated to the site's history, it also has the date of the renaming as 2014 (referencing this article) as well as once again explicitly names CWC in the context of the founding of Kiwi Farms. The book is not freely available online, but the excerpts can be found through Google Books.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 15:43, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* Thanks for fixing the pronouns. I think there's certainly a discussion to be had about removing the names of other BLPs from this page, frankly. But "names of other living people are being improperly included in this article and so CWC's ought to be as well" is not a compelling argument to add her name. Thanks for the source link, that looks like it could be promising. Will try to find access to it. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* Looks like a good source! I've added a refideas template above, and will try to add some details from it this evening. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* Done. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 00:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
* Here's a suggestion that would not include CWC and improve on the discussed issues: "The website originated from 4chan and Encyclopedia Dramatica communities focusing on harassment and trolling of online personalities, beginning around 2007. In 2009, members who felt that the Encyclopedia Dramatica entry about about one such personality was not detailed or accurate enough, founded "CWCki" (named after that person's initials) which initially focused on documenting that person exclusively. The forums of that website, "CWCki Forums", later became Kiwifarms. Despite containing the word "kiwi", the forums have no connection with New Zealand." I don't think there is a sensitive way to not generalise somewhat inaccurately while keeping this section somewhat comprehensible, hence my argument above. If there is a source going into more detail of the renaming (I think it was due to similar pronunciation + "farming" more people like CWC), that would be great - that last sentence does not really feel like it adds a lot by itself.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* We don't prohibit sources not available everywhere in the world (nor ones which are paywalled or offline, so as long as they are publicly published somewhere). I've reworded further so hopefully there's no trace of close paraphrasing remaining (thanks for the tip-off). We will not get consensus here to mention the person you are referring to, and Quinn and Christo are different people in different situations with different sources relating to them. — Bilorv ( talk ) 22:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
* I think that "webcomic artist" is a reasonable description for the initial victim here. I would strongly object to changing it to "online personality" as that description would serve to legitimise their obsessive interest in her. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
* Sonichu isn't a webcomic though. It is a regular comic book that the creator would shill online on personal website.Mr. 123453334 (talk) 13:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
* Redacted. Enough with the misgendering! --DanielRigal (talk) 14:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
* That description is used in some sources and much more accurately reflects CWC's online presence. Even the NY Mag article used as a source calls her a "self-described “artist, gamer and creative type”" and does not mention any webcomics at all let alone calls her a comic artist or webcomic artist. If you have a better term that accurately describes her or a source, feel free to provide it.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* I did some more research on this today on sources beyond those relating to Kiwifarms. I can find only one source calling CWC a "webcomic artist", which is this Newsweek article - however, that one also calls her an "internet personality" in the title. Besides that I can't find anything using this identification. Variants of online personality or online creator are by far the most common identifications, and besides that maybe Vlogger / Youtuber. "Creator of Sonichu" also seems to be used rather often, but as discussed above in vast detail this seems confusing and honestly even somewhat contradictory and mocking to include one of the reasons for harassment while refusing to just name the person. If you really want to avoid "online personality" and there are objective reasons to do so, at least something like "artist and content creator" would seem much more accurate in reflecting CWC's description in media and secondary sources on Kiwifarms.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 15:23, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* Just as a heads up, Daily Mail and NY Post are not usable sources (WP:DAILYMAIL, WP:NYPOST). GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* I don't have a problem with changing the description slightly if a supported and accurate phrase can be found. "Artist and content creator" seems reasonable. I agree that "Creator of Sonichu" is excessively specific and that most readers would have no idea what that even means. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
* "Internet Artist" might be good as well, but I'd go for "Content creator". It has digital connotations nowadays and while CWC didn't actually draw her art digitally (at least not to my knowledge) the primary way she distributed her art was the web. JungleEntity (talk) 02:48, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
* I'd personally go with "Internet personality" and/or "Webcomic creator". I don't have any issue personally with Sonichu being named in-article, given that is what Chris is known for, but I'd rather have Chandler's name in there than the comic's if there's a choice. Given it's a forum originally named after, and based on Chris-Chan there's literally no excuse not to have that info. I have to say though, the lengths people have gone to not to name a incredibly public and well known figure is sort of funny. A Simple Fool (talk) 10:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
* We should call her whatever she was referred to at the time it was named. "Internet personalities" didn't really exist (as a term, anyway) in 2007; "webcomic artist" is probably the closest and most accurate term. Primefac (talk) 10:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
* I agree that "webcomic artist" is best. — Bilorv ( talk ) 11:02, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
* Fair enough. The "internet personality" part, with commissions, and live streams didn't come until a few years back, well after Chandler became well known. A Simple Fool (talk) 12:22, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
* Webcomic artist is probably one of the easiest terms to use since the comics were posted online at one point in time, so CWC would fall under that banner. Internet personality is kind of a problematic term since her infamy stems from the various trolling sagas. It's just kind of a little loaded. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:35, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Questionable situation surrounding Near's death
According to the US government, there were no deaths of US Citizens in Japan during the entire month of June, suicide or otherwise. Unless Near's friends never reported his death to the local police, I'm starting to feel pretty suspicious of the situation. This feels worth looking into. BasicSID (talk) 04:39, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Source: The US Citizen Deaths Overseas database reveals there were 0 deaths of US Citizens in Japan during the month of June 2021.
* If Near was not American, then the US government would not have them in their database. I see nothing that says that they fit into that category. Primefac (talk) 04:44, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
* Hector Martin, the person who initially confirmed Near's death, has actually said that Near is from the USA, but has also claimed the US State Dept's stats aren't complete I don't know why he thinks this. He also claims in the same thread that USA Today confirmed it with their boss. While I wish their was a clear cut confirmation on Near's death, I have no opinion on it being kept in the article or not.JungleEntity (talk) 05:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
* Near provided a photo of their US passport prior to the claimed suicide. BasicSID (talk) 09:37, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
* If there is RS reporting that directly suggests that Near is not dead, it could be used to contradict the RS reporting that they are. However, drawing our own conclusions from State Department data and guesses about Near's citizenship is WP:OR. Leave it to secondary RS to sort that all out, and we'll reflect what they say.
* Furthermore, right now the article states that 1) Martin reported that Near had died by suicide; 2) Martin spoke to police and said that police had confirmed the death; and 3) that USA Today reported Near's death after confirming it with their former boss; all of those statements are still true regardless of whether or not Near died. But we're not going to start adding faked-death implications to the article without any credible secondary sourcing just because Kiwi Farms users are speculating. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 18:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Death Counter?
The article here states that, "The Kiwi Farms community considers it a goal to drive its targets to suicide, and has celebrated such deaths with a counter on the website." I have found no such death counter on their website. Either I am missing it, the source cited is incorrect, or no such death counter exists in the source "Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment". Does anyone know what is happening here? If it is wrong, can someone please edit it? Mortal Crispy (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* Source snippet. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* Thank you for confirming that the source is from the book. I still have no clue where this counter actually is on the site though. Perhaps if it was a temporary thing on Kiwifarms, it should be mentioned on the article. If it is still on there, it should be cited as a source. Otherwise, the statement should be removed. Mortal Crispy (talk) 03:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* The article says that Kiwi Farms "has celebrated such deaths with a counter on the website". It makes no claims about whether they currently do. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 03:36, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* This interested me, and the book "Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment" actually cited the death counter claim to https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-1202858068/. However, on the article, it has no mention of a online "death-counter". Does the initial source's ("Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment") claim of a death-counter being on the website still hold merit if the very article it uses as a source to that claim has no mention of it? JungleEntity (talk) 04:34, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* That is a good observation. I was just going to say that the tense on this page be edited so that it is more obvious that the counter is not there anymore, but this revelation may require something else. Mortal Crispy (talk) 14:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* The book has four references for that statement, which includes more than just the death counter claim. I can't access all of the references; if the sources is reliable, I don't necessarily need to. The current language in the article has the counter claim in past tense, which is appropriate. Firefangledfeathers 14:33, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* I mean we just say '...a counter that used to be on the website...' instead of what is there now. The current version makes it look like it is still there to me. Assuming "Gaming the Dynamics of Online Harassment" has their sources right that is. Mortal Crispy (talk) 15:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* The current text does not imply to me that there is still a counter: we use "has celebrated" rather than "celebrates". To say or imply that there is no longer a counter, we must have a source that says so (who's to say you've not just missed where the counter is? Or that the counter doesn't appear on Wednesdays only? etc.). In any case, we strongly prefer secondary sources (books about KiwiFarms) over primary sources (KiwiFarms) because we are an encyclopedia (tertiary source). — Bilorv ( talk ) 21:34, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* Fair enough. If it is so hard to cite any of the scarce records of the timer, then would it be appropriate to just remove mention of it altogether to avoid confusion? Keeping such a minute detail on here does not add much to the article, especially if it is chronologically dubious. Mortal Crispy (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* There is no dubiousness. It's reported in an expert source. The point of relying on secondary sources is that we are not expected to investigate each fact ourselves (far too onerous). If we were to remove facts of this level of sourcing or less than we would be cutting most content out of most articles. — Bilorv ( talk ) 22:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* I understand that the source itself is not dubious, just the context of the counter not being there makes the whole thing confusing. If anything, it just makes that one fact of the source outdated. Sorry if the way I said that seemed like I was casting doubt on the validity of the source in general. It still seems appropriate to do something about it though, considering the death counter fact is no longer applicable to the present. Mortal Crispy (talk) 23:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
* Wikipedia is meant to adopt a historical perspective on topics. Something shouldn't be removed as "outdated" because if it is covered in a reliable source then that shows it is of historical significance. The article isn't aiming to describe how Kiwi Farms looks today—more along the lines of what effect it has had on the world as a whole throughout its existence. An easy example would be Myspace (though that article quality isn't great), which is much better known for its role in 2003-2012 than 2012-2021, so the article mostly focuses on that. — Bilorv ( talk ) 18:37, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
* So we can't remove the death counter bit because it speaks to history, we can't update the quote to say "...counter that used to be on the website" because no source bothered to report on something so unimportant disappearing, but we can keep a quote that implies that the death counter is still there despite the fact that anyone can go to the website and see it is not? Is there anything we can do about this? Mortal Crispy (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
* The sentence you are objecting to doesn't imply that a counter is still there. It implies exactly what it says, which is that there was a point in time at which a counter appeared. It makes no comment on whether a counter still exists, because there's apparently no sourcing saying one way or another. As for "is there anything we can do about this?", "we" (the editing community) can do anything we reach consensus upon as far as changes to articles, but it typically has to start with someone making a compelling argument for why it ought to be removed, despite there being a reliable source to verify it. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 23:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
* we can keep a quote that implies that the death counter is still there – I don't know why you'd raise a point that I already addressed, to which you replied "Fair enough", and expect me to say something new. In some cases better wording will reduce the amount of misreading of a particular passage, but in some cases the onus is simply on the reader to parse the English language correctly. — Bilorv ( talk ) 08:57, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Add distinguish to New Zealand video game developer Ninja Kiwi
There should be a not to be confused with Ninja Kiwi, a New Zealand video game developer because their names are similar in the sense that they both contain the word “Kiwi” From D0nk M3m3s (talk) 22:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
* I'm not convinced these names are sufficiently similar to cause frequent confusion. — Bilorv ( talk ) 22:29, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
"near did not commit suicide"
there is no death certificate, so why is this states as if it is a fact? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:29, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
* this thread (permalink) explains it. Elli (talk | contribs) 09:49, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
* This sub-heading is false - Near is confirmed to have committed suicide and Kiwifarms was implicated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 19:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
* Don't worry. Nobody is convinced by the denials, which I assume to be completely insincere anyway. The article is written on the basis that the suicides are real and it reports the matter as accurately as is possible given that not all of the details are known. That won't change unless new facts come to light. I know it is galling to see them but it is best not to get wound up by the unsupported denials. They don't matter. Anyway, I've put the sub-heading in quotes so that nobody mistakes it for anything being said in Wikipedia's voice. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:37, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Do we know any Russian speaking admins?
I'm sure that all the Russian speaking admins are having a very tough time at the moment with war related issues but I was kindly reminded that we still have some mentions the primary KF victim on Russian Wikipedia and in Wikidata. I wonder whether there is any way to enlist the help of a Russian speaking editor, ideally an admin, who can help remove (and preferable salt) this?
Here is what we have: If anybody can help here then please do. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:53, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
* https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q98406706
* Includes deadname and link to videos harassing her as well as other information that likely constitutes doxxing. I have nominated that for deletion here: here. I have no experience with Wikidata deletions so I don't know how well that is likely to go.
* Чендлер, Кристин Уэстон
* This is already nominated for deletion. It looks like previous attempts at deletion have stalled or failed so I have my doubts whether anything will actually happen unless it is given a push.
* ru:n:Категория:Кристин Уэстон Чендлер
* This is perhaps the most disgusting one. Based on Google Translation, it seems to misgender her throughout and to report the allegations against her as if they were established as facts. It is framed as a "category" but it contains only one item, which is coverage of an incident completely unrelated to this individual and seems intended to smear by false association.
* I don't see how the Russian article on the primary KF victim is deadnaming the individual, at least any differently than English Wikipedia (for example, the English Wikipedia lists the former names of The Wachowskis, much in a similar way that the Russian article does to the individual in question.) Russian Wikipedia might have a transphobia problem (such as listing the Wachowskis on The Matrix article as "the Wachowski Brothers", although this may not have mal-intent as the Wachowski's were pre-transition during the release of the original Matrix and the actual Wachowskis article's title is "The Wachowski Sisters")
* Regardless, if you think Russian Wikipedia still has a transphobia problem, I'd recommend going elsewhere to try and fix that issue, as I don't think that's in the scope of the Kiwi Farms article.
* Edit: Looking at the Russian Matrix's talkpage, the change from "sister" to "brother" on the article was recent, and fueled by transphobia (and the hypothetical reasoning I gave above.) However, there is an ongoing discussion about reverting back to referring them as sisters, and I think it's an issue best left to the Russian Wikipedia itself.
* JungleEntity (talk) 07:10, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
* A bigger issue, in my mind is that the webcomic really shouldn't have any mention on RU Wikipedia beyond what we mention. The policy really ought to be the same; probably under the UCoC, it is.-- Rockstone Send me a message! 20:54, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
* Under Wikimedia's UCoC page, it's difficult to discern if the mentioning of the webcomic/artist breaks UCoC, as the Russian Wikipedia's article (Чендлер, Кристин Уэстон) isn't targeted or derogatory in nature. Regardless, UCoC doesn't currently yet have a reporting or enforcement procedure.
* From what I can find, the reason that same person doesn't have an English Wikipedia article is WP:N or BLP, and those reasons could be used to delete Чендлер, Кристин Уэстон so you're welcome to bring that up on Russian Wikipedia. - JungleEntity (talk) 01:41, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
* Just some comments:
* 1. It's Wikidata policy that pretty much anything with a Wikipedia or Wikimedia project article gets an entry in Wikidata, so it can't be deleted unless the ruwiki and ruwikinews articles are deleted (which is unlikely). If the Wikidata item was deleted for some reason while the ruwiki/ruwikinews pages were still up, I'm sure some bot out there would notice and reinstate it.
* 2. The article on ruwiki has been up for deletion since August, and it seems like they are notable per ruwiki notability rules (particularly ru:ВП:ВИДЕОБЛОГЕРЫ). Each language wiki and project has its own notability and reliable sources rules (wow! so shocking), and trying to skirt them like this doesn't feel like a good idea to me. Also, Wikidata's notability guideline is loose in general; plenty of things that don't have Wikipedia articles have items in there and are perfectly valid and fine per Wikidata rules (ex. various scientific articles, literary works, some people). wizzito | say hello! 17:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
* Allowing each language wiki to set their own notability rules and general loose Wikidata rules are good in the long run. We should not mess with other wikis just because some of their content doesn't meet our notability standards (but may be actually notable in their respective language/country). It's just a unwanted side-effect (at least, for English Wikipedia) that people like the victim in question get articles. - JungleEntity (talk) 05:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
* "We should not mess with other wikis just because some of their content doesn't meet our notability standards" - exactly! That is what I feel that is doing; trying to mess with ruwiki and Wikidata simply because an article on this person probably meets their notability standards. It's very WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior to me. wizzito | say hello! 19:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
* I would remind you that the Russian language Wikipedia is still operated by Wikimedia, which is American, and American laws on harassment and stalking still apply. As for "I don't like it", I freely admit that I don't like people using Wikipedia to harass vulnerable people with the intention to induce them to commit suicide. It's called being a decent human being. More people should try it. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
* I don't think any of what you linked from Russian Wikipedia breaks American harassment laws. The Russian Wikipedia article isn't derogatory or targeted, I honestly don't see the Russian Wikinews category saying anything unproven, as legal documents for both of the arrests mentioned are easily found online (although it wouldn't hurt to put a source). Wikidata is simply hosting the videos. It might not be the best to host those videos, but it isn't taking any stance in the situation. JungleEntity (talk) 22:07, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
* As JungleEntity pretty much said, which part of the ruwiki article is "harass[ing] a vulnerable person" and "induc[ing] them to commit suicide"? I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that an article on this person is acceptable on other wikis, but as Isabelle said, this is probably not the place to discuss it. wizzito | say hello! 04:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Just a reminder that this space should be reserved for discussion of how to improve the English Wikipedia article. If you want to continue this discussion, I'd recommend either moving to an editor's talk page or maybe to Forum, where discussion about the various Wikimedia projects is hosted. Isabelle 🔔 22:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Can you please explain the name "CWIKi"?
Is this code or what? The name should be explained. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 07:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
* It already is explained - they were trolling an artist, and those are their initials. No further explanation is necessary. Primefac (talk) 08:41, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
* That doesn't explain how their initials are five letters and the last one is lower case. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:53, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
* The actual name as mentioned in the article is "CWCki": three are initials and the last two letters are part of a pun on the word wiki, Hawaiian for "quick", and used in the modern day to refer to a website that is primarily written by its readers (Wikipedia is unrelated to this hate site, but the "wiki" in it has the same word meaning). — Bilorv ( talk ) 13:00, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Is there wikipedia policy in place on why the person in the initialism is never mentioned at all? Given their extensive media coverage and the original name of the website, a small mention in this article seems warranted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
* If I may very briefly summarise the consensus of the previous discussions here: We do not wish to participate in a harassment campaign against a vulnerable individual for both legal and moral reasons. The person in question is not famous and does not need to be named in order for us to document Kiwi Farms behaviour. I just did a quick Google news check and not only is she no more famous than the last time I checked, there has been next to no ongoing coverage of her which strongly suggests that the claims about her did not stand up to scrutiny. We are here to document what Kiwi Farms is. We are not here to do their dirty work for them. For further details please see the archived discussions. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:00, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
* I'll also add that she's also very and obviously mentally ill so unless there is a lot of coverage establishing notability, it would pose a huge BLP issue to name her in the article. (I'm aware of the letters she's sent out while she was in prison.) Besides, the site isn't really known for that person anymore. Most of the time when the site is covered in the news that person is a footnote and sometimes not even named, assuming that they're mentioned at all. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:31, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
* I feel like the artist is potentially notable, but any mention would immediately violate BLP, and there's simply no way around that. Just because a person is potentially notable enough to warrant a mention doesn't mean that they should be. In fact, we should be extremely cautious about including information about living persons, particularly if they are mentally ill or a victim of harassment. -- Rockstone Send me a message! 09:17, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
* The artist in question is now in a secure health facility and his trolls are being starved of attention. Do NOT give into their demands to expand upon the whole “saga” of “CWC” unless it strictly complies with WP standards. 2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:952A:47D0:5A94:FDE9 (talk) 11:36, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
Does the My Immortal fanfic really deserve as much attention as the other controversies?
The other controversies relate to provoked suicides and potential connections to / response to a terrorist incident. The authorship of My Immortal (which, as I understand it, is itself of a sort of meme notability and not due to being a serious work) seems to really pale in comparison to the other stuff. So what if something interesting was discovered on the website, that's what it's supposed to do. On the Daily Mail wikipedia page we don't list everything they ever discovered, what is important about the author of this meme fanfic work?! <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 04:54, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
* It basically all boils down to coverage of the event. The purported authorship gained a lot of coverage in the media and the site's involvement as far as the brother goes got its own fair share of coverage as well. It's enough to justify a subsection. As far as the other stuff the site has done or covered, very little of that gains enough coverage to justify inclusion here. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 18:13, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
* ok, that makes sense, thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 16:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
* No problem! It's a reasonable question to ask! ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 13:34, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Suicide of harassment victims
I am aware of the Wikipedia rules about original research, but given the US Bureau of Consular Affairs have now confirmed that no US Citizen died by suicide anywhere near or when the supposed date of suicide of the pseudonymous Near, is it possible to include a note to that effect in the article? Every single article referenced, regardless of being a "notable source", references the same anonymous googledoc and one single individual's twitter account - both of whose claims have been demonstrably debunked (albeit not in a manner that is guaranteed to be published by a noticeable source). We should not harbor falsehoods on here, no matter how distasteful we find the subject of the article --<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
* I think you've answered your own question. Using the US Bureau's database is original research. It would not be original research if they said "We are aware of a claim that a US citizen died by suicide under X circumstances. This is false." But I don't see why the US Bureau would have a complete list of all citizens who died by suicide, nor how you know where Near supposedly died by suicide (which is not necessarily anywhere close to where they lived) etc. All of these factors are something you could possibly convince me of, but the fact that it is not immediately and uncontroversially clear to an independent observer reading the reliable source with no further context makes it original research and unverifiable. — Bilorv ( talk ) 10:45, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
* The consensus says it's true, and the purpose of Wikipedia is to maintain the consensus. It doesn't matter whether it's factually true or false. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 12:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
* "The consensus says it's true, and the purpose of Wikipedia is to maintain the consensus. It doesn't matter whether it's factually true or false."
* And that's why, ladies and gentlemen, Wikipedia is regarded as a joke in Academias and STEM faculties all over the globe. It doesn't matter if God himself reveals his form to us lowly mortals and directly says to everybody "No, what you wrote is wrong, rectify it!", thw average Wikipedian will always answer with the classic "IT'S REAL TO ME, DAMMIT!" <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:42, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Isn't that the kind of completely braindead reasoning which could lead pretty much anyone to insert that the Earth is flat in every article and prevent everyone from removing it because enough morons believe in it ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cryptic72 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
* If Wikipedia had existed when expert consensus was that the Earth is flat then we would have asserted that position as fact. It's hard to see how you would expect us to transcend the scientific knowledge of the era. For the last 2000–2500 years, expert consensus has been that the Earth is roughly spherical, so that is what we report. — Bilorv ( talk ) 21:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Phrasing regarding the death of Near
Ginder's death still has not been validated through an official source, indeed the only "validations" we have are from a USA Today article which claims to have spoken with Ginder's employer and the Kotaku and PC Gamer articles which reference Hector Martin. While arguments have been hade regarding the validity of these claims, there is some phrasing that I suggest could be altered in order to reflect this. Regarding Martin's reports, the article mentions that he "reported on June 28 that he had spoken to police who confirmed that Near had died the previous day", the phrasing, much like the following part about the USA Today article, makes this seem authoritative, while in reality these are both sources which reference people who are either not citing any verifiable information (in the case of Martin) or have not had their claims independently reported in other sources (in the case of Beckett in the USA Today article). According to the principle of WP:V, the information must come from reliable sources, and while arguments for Kotaku and USA Today fitting this criteria have been made, the sources which these publications reference certainly aren't by any measure. The best thing would naturally be if a statement or other information could authoritatively conclude whether or not David Kirk Ginder is dead or not, ideally from the Bureau of Consular Affairs if Ginder was a U.S. citizen when this is supposed to have occurred. Tsumugii (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
* It is the responsibility of USA Today, Kotaku and PC Gamer to do the direct research to verify if it is true or not that Near died. If they did not consult the Bureau of Consular Affairs, then we have no reason to. I don't see what reason we would have to trust the accuracy of some government database over Near's employer. — Bilorv ( talk ) 14:54, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
* I read this and I thought, wait, aren't you just turning things around to say that you prefer to use primary sources that seem more authentic to you than to trust reliable, secondary sources that have conducted their own research from primary sources? 0x Deadbeef 15:04, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
* I fail to see how a Twitter post and a Google Doc counts as a reliable primary source fit for any sort of research, only USA Today had any sources which weren't directly linked to social media. Tsumugii (talk) 18:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
* Tsumugii, Why do we need to traverse the sourcing graph to prove its reliability? If reliable, secondary sources say they are true, the Wikipedia article should also reflect that as truth. We care a lot about the sources we cite in the articles, while trusting the sources with their claims. I personally find it hard to believe that a search in a government database should overturn claims by several reliable secondary sources. 0x Deadbeef 18:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
This may be mitigated if we can find a reputable source that is reporting on the overseas death records. Good luck with that, though. Riffraff913 (talk) 16:44, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
* I also find it interesting how someone can suffer "lifelong abuse" from a site nine years old, but maybe that's just me... Winston von Ripplechip (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:32, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
* It is a slightly ambiguous summary of what it says in the Kotaku source. I'll see if I can make it a bit clearer. DanielRigal (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
* Done. Does that make more sense now? DanielRigal (talk) 01:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
* It also doesn't help that the only source is basically a GDoc and some guy saying "Dude, trust me", followed by Kotaku picking it up and saying "Yeah dude; trust him." Winston von Ripplechip (talk) 01:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
* Sounds like you have a problem with Kotaku, not with Wikipedia. Take it up with them if you want to. Unless they retract their article, we consider it reliable. DanielRigal (talk) 01:41, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
* I don't think that looking for death records is going to do anybody any good. As far as I am aware, we don't have any reliable source for Near's legal name and my understanding is that Japan does not recognise non-binary genders. Amateur sleuthing through the Japanese records is not going to yield any reliable sources that we can use. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack where the haystack is labelled in Japanese. The risk of incorrectly identifying unconnected people would be very high. Out of basic decency and respect more than anything, I urge people to just drop this line of inquiry. DanielRigal (talk) 01:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Minor edit request
Hey all, I've noticed that trying to get them targets fired from their jobs sounds odd. It would be nice if targets was dropped from there. Thanks!
-- Holzklöppel (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
* ✅, Good call! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:28, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed edit request on 29 August 2022
Slightly rephrase the following: LightNightLights (talk) 11:58, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
* ✅. Thanks for the suggestion, and thanks for teaching me about Template:Td. You're so close to 500 edits, and not needing to wait on us slowpokes! Happy editing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:47, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Dropped by Cloudflare
https://blog.cloudflare.com/kiwifarms-blocked/ — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 22:35, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Trevor Project spamming
Look, I don't like Kiwi Farms as much as the next sane person, but the source that BOTH of the "sources" yall are using for the claim that Kiwi helped with the spam of the Trevor Project does not mention Kiwi Farms, only 4chan. It doesn't matter what the secondary source says, the primary source (this tweet) only mentions 4chan. Why don't yall actually read before moving stuff about? Naihreloe (talk) 22:57, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* Hmmmm. I've taken a look to see what other reliable sources have said about this, and the only others I could find were the Los Angeles Blade, and BuzzFeed News, who also attributed it only to 4chan. As such I now suspect that this is a mistake by NBC, so I'd now support removal. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:15, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* Agreed. -- ferret (talk) 23:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* It seems like I've misread the sources and I apologize. Removal seems fine (and has already been done). Isabelle 🏳🌈 23:29, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Cloudflare just dropped Kiwi farms, and edit request
Cloudflare released a statement in their blog detailing that they are cutting services to kiwi farms and are blocking them. The current website is displayed with a cloudflare blocked message, and I would like to request that the current status of the website be changed to temporarily offline or blocked.
Cloudflare blog and tweet:
https://blog.cloudflare.com/kiwifarms-blocked/
https://twitter.com/Cloudflare/status/1566190024864964611
Sources:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/03/cloudflare-drops-kiwifarms/
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/cloudflare-provided-security-services-kiwi-farms-blocks-website-rcna46219
https://www.rawstory.com/cloudflare-drops-controversial-far-right-website-kiwi-farms-after-public-backlash-site-is-down-report/
Good day or night, Randomdudewithinternet (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* Your requested changes had already been made to this article; see the current revision. Funcrunch (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* Thanks, just didn't refresh the article. Good day or night, Randomdudewithinternet (talk) 23:52, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
Neurodivergent, not neurodiverse
At the end of the first paragraph under Harassment, the last sentence contains the phrase "neurodiverse people", and links to the article on Neurodiversity. However, the term should be "neurodivergent". Neurodiversity is just a concept that people's brains, or neurotypes, are variable, and that includes neurotypical people. With that in mind, it should be clear that saying "neurodiverse people" means the same thing as saying "everyone". What is actually meant in this context is "neurodivergent people", those whose are not neurotypical. Unfortunately, the whole article on Neurodiversity is a mess, and neurodivergent just redirects to that article, but at the least, the wording here needs to be changed. AndyRatchick (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* @AndyRatchick I've changed it to neurodivergent with this edit. LightNightLights (talk) 06:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* Thank you! Much appreciated. AndyRatchick (talk) 06:16, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Linking of the term 'lolcows' to Wiktionary
@Philroc (Tagging in order not to edit-war) I'd argue not that we shouldn't link the term lolcow to Wiktionary but that we shouldn't link it at all. The definition is mentioned right after the mention of the term (for reference, the definition is "people that can be 'milked for laughs). LightNightLights (talk) 06:49, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Intro is non-neutral self-promotion
Kiwi Farms may claim to be "dedicated to the discussion of online figures and communities", but that's not what neutral sources say or what they are known for, it's self-promotion. Specifically, it's a slight rephrasing of their own description which is:
"Community dedicated to discussing eccentric people"
What they are known for, and the actual reason for their existence, are their harassment campaigns.
See eg nymag (2016):
"Kiwi Farms, a loose community [...] that specializes in harassing people they perceive as being mentally ill or sexually deviant in some way."
Vice (2021):
"a forum famous for being the center of internet-led targeted harassment campaigns"
The Guardian (2022):
"Kiwi Farms, a community forum website that frequently targets trans people online."
NBC (2022):
"Kiwi Farms, a website associated with harassment campaigns against transgender people."
I propose to change the intro from:
"American Internet forum dedicated to the discussion of online figures and communities it deems 'lolcows' (people who can be 'milked for laughs')."
To:
"American Internet forum dedicated to the harassment of trans people and other minorities."
To avoid having "harassment" twice, I also propose to rephrase "trolling, harassment, and stalking" to "trolling and stalking". Zukorrom (talk) 09:23, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* "and other minorities" does not seem to reflect the sourcing, and it's kinda awkward phrasing tbh. Would change to dedicated to the harassment of online figures or dedicated to Internet-based harassment. Equivamp - talk 10:53, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* The entirety of the lede is dedicated to describing the website as a source of harassment of their targets, with the word already present three times. I think 's suggestion is better, but then some of the other sentences should also be change to avoid even more repetition. How about:
* "Kiwi Farms, formerly known as CWCki Forums, is an American Internet forum dedicated to the discussion and harassment of online figures and communities it deems 'lolcows' (people who can be 'milked for laughs'). The targets of threads are subject to organized group trolling and stalking, as well as doxxing and real-life harassment. These actions have tied Kiwi Farms into the suicides of three people targeted by users of the site."
* We should also work to expand the lede in general. Isabelle 🏳🌈 11:11, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* I think there is value in naming the groups targeted by Kiwi Farms, as it's important information for understanding why they are doing it. "and other minorities" is already sourced in the main article ("particularly minorities, women, LGBT people, neurodivergent people"). The focus on trans people is sourced by the sources above. I'm also not sure "online figures" is exactly right, nor is the harassment only internet-based.
* I'm very open to other phrasings though! Maybe something like "dedicated to the harassment of minorities, particularly trans people", "dedicated to the harassment of trans people", or "dedicated to the harassment of trans people, women, neurodivergent people, and LGBT people"? Zukorrom (talk) 11:14, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* @Isabelle Belato For my taste, that suggestion is still too close to the self-description. What does "discussion of online figures" even mean? I'd wager that a regular wikipedia reader imagines something quite different when reading that, compared to what is happening at Kiwi Farms.
* imho it's also missing who they target (which implicitly explains why they are targeting them, which seems like important information).
* I'd also avoid using their derogatory vocabulary (at least in the lead). It doesn't add any value, but denigrates their victims. Zukorrom (talk) 11:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* @Zukorrom: I agree with you on the removal of "lolcows" from the lede, as it adds nothing to the article, but am neutral on the other part, if anything because it would make the sentence a bit awkward. What if we added that in the second sentence, like this: " Isabelle 🏳🌈 11:48, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* Sounds good to me. Zukorrom (talk) 11:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* Agree with this change. At the very least, the site's focus on harassing trans and neurodivergent people needs to be somewhere in the lede. Jenny Death (talk) 16:01, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* We shouldn't be implicitly saying anything. Is "minorities" supported by the source? Is there a better term that can be used? I think the general audience would only associate that term with people of color when what you are seeming to mean is the mentally ill or developmentally disabled? --Equivamp - talk 12:38, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* "minorities" is already in the main article, supported by two sources. But Isabelles suggestion seems good to me, and I don't think there are any objections to it. It's definitely a huge improvement over the current phrasing. Zukorrom (talk) 13:54, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
* These recommendations look good to me—the available sourcing has changed a lot in the past few weeks and this lead reflects that well. I think it's probably also worth adding something about Keffals to the lead, given how much of the coverage focuses on her and her campaign to draw attention to the site and pressure Cloudflare into dropping them as a customer. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:00, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Edit request for the wording of the lead
I'd put the word "harassment" before "discussion" in the lead part (see above discussion). Dennis Dartman (talk) 03:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Removing "Online-Status"
I think this is a useless thing to have in the infobox, considering how often the site's status fluctuates, making it just needless busywork for editors. If a reader really wants to check if the site is online or not, they can go to the site themselves or check something like DownDetector. I believe we should only put something regarding its online status in the infobox if the site goes permanently offline. Things like huge DDOS attacks that are happening to the site right now should be left to the History section, if it needs to be said at all. JungleEntity (talk) 00:05, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* +1, nothing to add. -- ferret (talk) 00:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* Agreed. Pointless unless it's a sustained / permanent change. --Jack Frost (talk) 00:45, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* I've removed this per the emerging consensus here. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* As the website now appears completely offline (except via Tor) I think that qualifies as a sustained / permanent change that we should document IntUnderflow (talk) 10:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended protected edit request.
Can someone please add an inline citation of refenrence 35 and 36 on "In September 2022, Kiwi Farms' DDoS protection, provided by Cloudflare, was cancelled after users engaged in doxxing and swatting of transgender and pro-LGBTQ people." It probably needs it for verifiability. Ananinunenon (talk) 09:11, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
I think it would be more reasonable to cite cloudflares official reasoning, that being increasing threats of off site violence. BJackJS talk 22:35, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
September 4
The article says that the website was back online "intermittently" on September 4 with the Russian-based service provider DDoS-Guard. There is no mention of September 4 in the source. This looks like an original research. Xmp512 (talk) 01:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
* I added that, it's from this AP article. It says "Sunday", which was Sep 4. Chillabit (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Cloudflare campaign
"a campaign was started to try to convince Cloudflare to stop supporting the site" -- should it be clarified that the objective of the campaign is to enable federal crimes (DDoS-ing) to take the site offline? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aardark (talk • contribs) 09:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* Got a reliable source that says as much? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 13:23, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* No, just common sense. Saying that Cloudflare is "supporting the site" is vague and misleading. They're not supporting the site ideologically or financially, they're just providing the same service that's available to everyone else -- protection against criminal DDoS attacks.
* I think it's noteworthy that the "campaign" is an attempt to remove that protection, rather than simply getting the relevant authorities to shut Kiwi Farms down, if there is indeed any evidence that it is a criminal terrorist site as Keffals claims. Aardark (talk) 14:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* If you've got no reliable sources then you've got nothing and we are not going to action an entirely unsupported request. DanielRigal (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* I agree that "supporting the site" sounds odd and is inaccurate. Neither of the sources cited say that Cloudfare support them, just that they provide services to them - I've reworded accordingly. SmartSE (talk) 15:30, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* More ambiguous than inaccurate but it was definitely good to clarify it. DanielRigal (talk) 13:43, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
* Cloudflare doesn't just protect websites from DDoS, they also act as a proxy that speeds up network traffic. The campaign is for Cloudflare to stop providing service to Kiwi Farm, not "stop protecting the website against DDoS attacks so we can DDoS them". If you understand wiki-speak, this is against the NPOV and OR policies. 0x Deadbeef 15:54, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
* Where are you getting that from? That's not what sources I can find say: e.g. Internet infrastructure company Cloudflare provides DDoS protection services to numerous websites, including Kiwi Farms, effectively keeping them online., and One of Cloudflare’s most popular services is anti-DDoS protection, which routes attempts to knock a web site offline by flooding it with traffic through its unique worldwide network. Without that service, it’s unlikely Kiwi Farms would be able to stay online. Endwise (talk) 06:42, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
* Cloudflare is, at its core, a content delivery network (CDN) which quickly serves users websites that they request through their web browsers. It also defends sites against attackers. Secure and accelerate your apps, APIs, and websites in minutes by pointing your DNS to Cloudflare. Instantly turn on performance and security services, including: CDN, WAF, DDOS protection, bot management, API security, web analytics, image optimization, stream delivery, load balancing, SSL, and DNS. I have used cloudflare for my websites, and it should be obvious that their DDoS protection is achieved by acting as a reverse proxy for your network traffic. If you do a nslookup for kiwi farms or other websites behind cloudflare, you will get cloudflare's IP. 0x Deadbeef 08:02, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
* I'm not sure if that is obvious to people who are not familiar with how these services work but you are correct. In fact, a few days ago, I saw somebody falsely claiming that Cloudflare had nothing to do with KF and so, out of curiosity, I looked up their IPs and, of course, it was exactly as you say. Maybe there is some confusion as (iirc) their DDoS protection is not the same as their full CDN service but even mere DDoS protection clearly involves proxying the content. I'm not sure if it involves caching, although I'd be surprised if it didn't to some degree. If nothing else CF was hosting a custom error page for KF which, at one point, had a transphobic "joke" about suicide on it. DanielRigal (talk) 13:41, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
* Thank you. this and this would be an authoritative source on how Cloudflare works. 0x Deadbeef 13:50, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
* I've seen some musings (although not from any news outlets) that Cloudflare is only providing CDN for Kiwi Farms, and not DDOS protection. Because DDOS protection falls under the broader umbrella of Cloudflare's CDN, would it be worth changing the article from "Kiwi Farms uses DDOS protection services from Cloudflare", to "Kiwi Farms uses CDN services from Cloudflare"? However, If another source specifically states that Kiwi Farms uses Cloudflare's DDOS protection, I think it would be ok to leave the present wording. JungleEntity (talk) 22:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
* Ask and you shall receive! 'Anti-trans stalkers at Kiwi Farms are chasing one victim around the world. Their list of targets is growing.' - NBC News; (archive)
* "Clara Sorrenti and those supporting her are hoping to open up Kiwi Farms to debilitating virtual attacks by demanding Cloudflare, one of its internet security service vendors, drop the site. Cloudflare has so far refused to budge."
* Tweedle (talk) 22:14, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
* Even though NBC News is listed at RSP as one of the "generally reliable sources," I will have to disagree that this can be used for suggesting that the whole campaign is for Kiwi Farms to be DDoSed. The two page authors probably worded it as "debilitating virtual attacks" because they do not know what DDoS attacks are. 0x Deadbeef 11:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* OK then we can simply just use exactly how the source describes it as, a 'debilitating virtual attack', no? Regardless anyway I dispute the claim that the author's do not know what a DDoS attack is when at-least one of them, Ben Collins, has used it multiple times on their own Twitter page and on one occasion used it within an article they co-authored (the article). Tweedle (talk) 14:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* Oh sorry, yeah. I would still disagree that the campaign's intention is to DDoS Kiwi Farms, but rather for Cloudflare to stop offering DDoS protection to Kiwi Farms. I don't know if that distinction makes sense, or maybe it is just about the wording. 0x Deadbeef 14:38, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* NBC appears to be implying something that the subject has not said. Are there other sources that say the same? Isabelle 🏳🌈 14:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* Not to my knowledge however I have not looked further into it, I am sure they will be more sources in the future will state similar and someone more dedicated then myself would be able to find said sources. An implication regardless though it is still reliable enough to say 'NBC claims... ' Tweedle (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
* I agree with Tweedle above. NBC News is considered generally reliable as per RSP. Isabelle claims this may simply be an inference, and I agree as are hoping to doesn't seem like a direct quotation to me. I favor the NBC claims... phrasing. --Holzklöppel (talk) 08:27, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
* Shouldn't we say when in August the campaign was started? Xmp512 (talk) 02:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Edit request: Cloudflare campaign
Hi all! There's consensus emerging on this in Cloudflare campaign, so I'd just like to make an edit request while we're at it:
Following Kiwi Farms' harassment campaign against Sorrenti, in August 2022 a campaign was started to try to convince Cloudflare to stop providing services to the site. (some references here) + NBC News claims this was done in order to enable "debilitating virtual attacks" against Kiwi Farms. <ref>{{cite news |first1=Ben |last1=Collins |first2=Kat |last2=Tenbarge |date=2022-09-02 Holzklöppel (talk) 09:01, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
* title=Anti-trans stalkers at Kiwi Farms are chasing one victim around the world. Their list of targets is growing. |work=NBC News |url=https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/cloudflare-kiwi-farms-keffals-anti-trans-rcna44834|access-date=2022-09-06}}</ref>
* Done! Tweedle (talk) 12:07, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
* Thanks! Holzklöppel (talk) 10:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
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WIKI
|
XMLBEANSXX 0.9.8
xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser Class Reference
#include <XmlParser.h>
Inheritance diagram for xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser:
Collaboration diagram for xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser:
List of all members.
Classes
struct StackEl
Public Member Functions
EmptyParser ()
EmptyParser (const XmlOptions &options)
virtual ~EmptyParser ()
virtual XmlOptions getXmlOptions () const
virtual void setXmlOptions (const XmlOptions &options)
virtual QName nsSplit (const std::string &str, bool isAttr=false)
virtual QName getQName (const char *prefix, const char *localname, bool isAttr=false)
virtual std::pair< std::string,
std::string >
tagSplit (const std::string &str)
virtual void addError (const char *msg)
virtual std::list< std::string > getSchemaValidityErrors () const
virtual void addWarning (const char *msg)
virtual std::list< std::string > getSchemaValidityWarnings () const
Public Attributes
XmlContext xmlContext
std::stack< StackElnodesStack
std::string currentString
Protected Attributes
std::list< std::string > errors
std::list< std::string > warnings
XmlOptions options
Constructor & Destructor Documentation
xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::EmptyParser ( const XmlOptions options) [inline]
virtual xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::~EmptyParser ( ) [inline, virtual]
Member Function Documentation
virtual void xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::addError ( const char * msg) [inline, virtual]
virtual void xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::addWarning ( const char * msg) [inline, virtual]
QName xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::getQName ( const char * prefix,
const char * localname,
bool isAttr = false
) [virtual]
virtual std::list<std::string> xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::getSchemaValidityErrors ( ) const [inline, virtual]
virtual std::list<std::string> xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::getSchemaValidityWarnings ( ) const [inline, virtual]
virtual XmlOptions xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::getXmlOptions ( ) const [inline, virtual]
Implements xmlbeansxx::XmlParser.
QName xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::nsSplit ( const std::string & str,
bool isAttr = false
) [virtual]
converts eg. "xs:string" to <nr,"string">, where nr is namespace ID in globalTypeSystem
virtual void xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::setXmlOptions ( const XmlOptions options) [inline, virtual]
Implements xmlbeansxx::XmlParser.
std::pair< std::string, std::string > xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::tagSplit ( const std::string & str) [virtual]
converts "xs:string" to <"xs","string">
Member Data Documentation
std::list<std::string> xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::errors [protected]
std::list<std::string> xmlbeansxx::EmptyParser::warnings [protected]
The documentation for this class was generated from the following files:
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
|
Blue screen when i close lid.
#1
ive been noticing a bluescreen when i close my lid (this does NOT put the computer to sleep, but does force everything to my second screen.
Any help would be great!
Attachments
kemical
Windows Forum Admin
Staff member
Premium Supporter
Microsoft MVP
#2
Code:
*******************************************************************************
* *
* Bugcheck Analysis *
* *
*******************************************************************************
Use !analyze -v to get detailed debugging information.
BugCheck 3B, {c0000005, fffff96000146483, fffff88009eea030, 0}
Probably caused by : win32k.sys ( win32k!HmgLockEx+a3 )
Followup: MachineOwner
Hi,
all your dump files are the same bugcheck 3B and can either mean you have some corrupt data and/or old drivers or you have a hardware fault possibly RAM.
One was apparent straight away in that your missing a service pack. Please download and install service pack 1:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=5842
If you have issues installing the update the you might need the update readiness tool:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=3132
Apart from the GPU driver you also have some pretty old drivers although with lappies I'm sure your aware that it's the manufacturer who supply the updates. Checking the support page I don't think there's much to update:
http://www.asus.com/ROG_ROG/G74SX/HelpDesk_Download/
If the issue persists after installing the above check Windows hasn't got corrupt by running the system file scanner:
Find command prompt in the start menu, right click on it and run as admin. Type:
sfc /scannow
Press enter and await results
It might also be worth testing your RAM too. Download and run Memtest86:
http://www.memtest.org/
If possible run overnight or for 12 hours.
This website is not affiliated, owned, or endorsed by Microsoft Corporation. It is a member of the Microsoft Partner Program.
|
ESSENTIALAI-STEM
|
BitRot | Checking Java Homework
Checking Java Homework
on
I checked homework for the course Introduction to Computer Science at my university last semester. Over the course of the semester, I think I saw every anti-pattern possible in the universe in the students code. But better they make mistakes now than later, when it matters. Anyways, the course is taught in Java, and over the years, several useful methods that aid in writing unit tests have been developed. Over a weekend during my winter break, I rewrote some of those methods, made them better, and packaged them nicely in a neat little ball. Receive: the Java Grading Tools library
The idea behind the library is really simple: provide some methods to ensure compliance to an API, allow unit testing of various features that are somewhat hard to do otherwise, etc. The library currently has 2 sections:
1. ReflectionUtil
This is the class that houses the methods to ensure API compliance. In our course, students aren’t allowed to change the APIs that we give them to implement, and this class makes writing unit tests fairly simple. Unit test examples are of course included.
2. IOUtil
This utility class can be used to redirect I/O from the stdin/out so that unit tests can be written even for classes in which students need to take input from the user, and output something. Of course, the entire methodology is fairly flawed unless some measure of output compliance is enforced. Otherwise the regexs will cause the TA to commit suicide (regex in Java isn’t very nice, but regex isn’t very nice at all).
This project is available under the GPL from GitHub.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
|
This Is AuburnAUrora
The P2Y(2) Nucleotide Receptor Mediates Tissue Factor Expression in Human Coronary Artery Endothelial Cells
Author
Ding, Ling
Ma, Wanshu
Littmann, Timothy
Camp, Riley
Shen, Jianzhong
Abstract
The discovery of the role of P2Y12 receptor in platelet aggregation leads to a new anti-thrombotic drug Plavix; however, little is known about non-platelet P2Y receptors in thrombosis. This study tested the hypothesis that endothelial P2Y receptor(s) mediates up-regulation of tissue factor (TF), the initiator of coagulation cascade. Stimulation of human coronary artery endothelial cells (HCAEC) by UTP/ATP increased the mRNA level of TF but not of its counterpart-tissue factor pathway inhibitor, which was accompanied by up-regulation of TF protein and cell surface activity. RT-PCR revealed a selective expression of P2Y2 and P2Y11 receptors in HCAEC. Consistent with this, TF up-regulation was inhibited by suramin or by siRNA silencing of P2Y2 receptor, but not by NF-157, a P2Y11- selective antagonist, suggesting a role for the P2Y2 receptor. In addition, P2Y2 receptor activated ERK1/2, JNK, and p38 MAPK pathways without affecting the positive NF- B and negative AKT regulatory pathways of TF expression. Furthermore, TF up-regulation was abolished or partially suppressed by inhibition of p38 or JNK but not ERK1/2. Interestingly, blockade of the PLC/Ca2 pathway did not affect P2Y2 receptor activation of p38, JNK, and TF induction. However, blockade of Src kinase reduced phosphorylation of p38 but not JNK, eliminating TF induction. In contrast, inhibition of Rho kinase reduced phosphorylation of JNK but not p38, decreasing TF expression. These findings demonstrate that P2Y2 receptor mediates TF expression in HCAEC through new mechanisms involving Src/ p38 and Rho/JNK pathways, possibly contributing to a prothrombotic status after vascular injury
|
ESSENTIALAI-STEM
|
-- James Cameron to Make Two `Avatar' Sequels for Fox
News Corp. ’s Fox Filmed
Entertainment said James Cameron has agreed to make two sequels
to “Avatar,” the highest-grossing film of all time, as his
next projects. The installments are targeted for release in December 2014
and 2015, the movie studio said today in an e-mailed statement.
Cameron will begin working on the scripts early next year and
may start production later in 2011. The planned releases could mark another boost for News
Corp.’s profit . “Avatar,” which ignited viewer enthusiasm for
3-D films, has taken in $2.78 billion in worldwide box-office
sales, on production costs of $230 million, according to Box
Office Mojo. The movie was released on Dec. 18. Cameron will decide if he’ll make the new films back-to-
back after completing the scripts, Fox said. He will produce
them with Jon Landau for Cameron’s Lightstorm Entertainment. News Corp., based in New York, rose 1 cent to $14.32 at 4
p.m. New York time in Nasdaq Stock Market trading . The shares
have gained 4.6 percent this year. To contact the reporter on this story:
Sarah Rabil in New York at
srabil@bloomberg.net To contact the editor responsible for this story:
Peter Elstrom at pelstrom@bloomberg.net
|
NEWS-MULTISOURCE
|
Why PayPal is Getting Crushed and YouTube is Crushing It
Welcome back to Cook's Kitchen!
Last week before the FOMC threw their every-six-weeks quant-fest, I made a video recommending you buy stocks into any further weakness presented by the probable perception of too many hawk feathers from the gang...
Who's Afraid of the Hawkish Fed? Stocks to Buy On Sale
If you listened and bought The Trade Desk, NVIDIA, Shopify SHOP, or even the Nasdaq 3X Bull ETF TQQQ, you did well.
I still think that The Trade Desk is a buy here near $70 and Shopify is giving you another chance today with the 10% pullback under $900.
Even my reco of Block SQ was solid given today's dynamics with peer PayPal PYPL headed to oblivion with a -25% crash and burn on massive volume.
As I explain in today's video, the reason things are looking up for Block is that (1) even though the stock is down 10% in collateral sympathy with PayPal, it is not threatening last week's lows near $100, and (2) this nose-dive by PayPal is like the final cathartic capitulation in FinTech for which all possible worst-cast scenarios should now be discounted in Block shares at $110.
Smart Models Got Short for the Win
In the video, I also opine on how Wall Street analysts got it so wrong in PayPal that they were climbing over each other this morning to lower their price targets.
It has to do with how they are tracking trends in revenues and profits and, more importantly, the rate-of-change in those trends. Several analysts were already lowering EPS estimates for PayPal in the past two months, which put PYPL in the cellar of the Zacks Rank. But they underestimated the speed of the deceleration.
And thus they got wildly surprised by the company's cut in forward guidance and had to scramble to put lower numbers in their spreadsheets and revamp their forecasting models.
The good news for Zacks Ultimate members is that our Short Sell List portfolio has captured chunky gains of 31% in PYPL and over 50% in SQ in the past few weeks. It's not doing too bad in Twitter either with over 30% gains for being short since the beginning of November.
That's because our quant model, the Zacks Rank, is a super simple algorithm that consistently nails the big shifts in growth and specifically EPS trends.
If you want access to the Short Sell List, just email Ultimate@Zacks.com and tell 'em Cooker sent you.
Chips and Skips
The last two important companies I mention in today's video are Advanced Micro Devices AMD and Alphabet GOOGL. AMD delivered strong results last night and the stock gapped up over 10%. AMD was a gift near $105 just like NVIDIA was under $220.
In the video I also use NVIDIA as an example of how to think about buying your favorite stocks when they go on sale during market corrections. It's not as easy as most people think and you have to prepare your mind with a plan, in a certain way, or you won't take the right actions at the right time.
Finally, let's sing the praises of YouTube advertising after Alphabet reported record growth in that segment. GOOGL also gapped up over 10% -- from $2750 to $3030 and new all-time highs! -- and is currently hanging on to about +8% on big volume of 5 million shares.
What I explain in the video is the secret to YouTube attracting so many new business ad buyers. It has to do with something more than video being the best new medium for attracting and connecting with customers. I'll give you a clue: skippable ads.
Watch the vid to get the full recipe and I'll talk to you next week in Cook's Kitchen!
Disclosure: I own shares of AMD, NVDA, and TTD.
Just Released: Zacks' 7 Best Stocks for Today
Experts extracted 7 stocks from the list of 220 Zacks Rank #1 Strong Buys that has beaten the market more than 2X over with a stunning average gain of +25.3% per year.
These 7 were selected because of their superior potential for immediate breakout.
See these time-sensitive tickers now >>
Want the latest recommendations from Zacks Investment Research? Today, you can download 7 Best Stocks for the Next 30 Days. Click to get this free report
Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (AMD): Free Stock Analysis Report
Alphabet Inc. (GOOGL): Free Stock Analysis Report
PayPal Holdings, Inc. (PYPL): Free Stock Analysis Report
Shopify Inc. (SHOP): Free Stock Analysis Report
Block Inc. (SQ): Free Stock Analysis Report
To read this article on Zacks.com click here.
Zacks Investment Research
The views and opinions expressed herein are the views and opinions of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of Nasdaq, Inc.
|
NEWS-MULTISOURCE
|
Milroy McCune
Milroy McCune (July 4, 1883 – October 1, 1936) was an American Negro league third baseman between 1909 and 1911.
A native of Waxahachie, Texas, McCune played three seasons with the Minneapolis Keystones from 1909 to 1911. He died in Fort Worth, Texas in 1936 at age 53.
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WIKI
|
A sitemap is a special file that features a list of all pages on a certain site. It allows both visitors and search engines to find content much easier, so it will boost the success of every site. When visitors are looking for a certain page, the sitemap will help them to discover it and the enhanced user experience increases the likelihood for them to return to the site eventually or to recommend it to other people. Search engines also search for a sitemap on every site they crawl since such a file permits them to index the website content better and to monitor changes on various web pages that will later be displayed in the search engine results, thus a sitemap can increase the ranking of a particular Internet site. Due to the fact that the total number of Internet sites keeps rising on a daily basis, having a sitemap is crucial if you want your website to be more popular.
SiteMap Generator in Cloud Web Hosting
Our cloud web hosting packages come with a sitemap generator which is part of our cutting-edge Hepsia Control Panel. The tool uses the exact same user-friendly Hepsia interface, so you could create a sitemap for every one of your domains and subdomains with several mouse clicks even if you've never had a site before. There are several options, which you will be able to customize - the depth, which shows the total number of levels in the site the sitemap should follow links, the maximum number of links that will be included and what kind of file types will be displayed on the sitemap. For the latter option, you can type or delete specific file extensions, which will be really helpful in case you have files which are not generic for a website such as php or html, but are pdf or mp3 files, for example. This way, your custom content will be incorporated within the sitemap along with the web pages.
SiteMap Generator in Semi-dedicated Hosting
The Hepsia Control Panel that comes with all of our semi-dedicated hosting packages includes a sitemap generator which is very simple to use. The point-and-click interface will permit you to generate a sitemap for each and every website accommodated in the account with ease even in case you have no previous experience, so you'll be able to have a search engine friendly sitemap in no time. You'll be able to select what number of links will be included and how many levels down the webpages these links will follow, so it's your decision how detailed the sitemap will be. In the event that you offer unique content, you will also be able to add any kind of file extension present on the website and if needed, to remove extensions from the default ones. This way you'll be able to create an entirely customizable sitemap which will meet your specific requirements in terms of what exactly it has to include.
SiteMap Generator in VPS
If you have a virtual private server from our company and it is provided with the Hepsia hosting Control Panel, you will be able to take advantage of the custom sitemap generator which is incorporated in Hepsia. This software instrument is very convenient to use, so even if you are not very tech-savvy, you can create a sitemap for any of your Internet sites using a simple point-and-click interface. There are several options that you'll be able to customize - the depth of the links the software instrument should follow, the total number of links which need to be indexed and what file types need to be included. The last option will permit you to concentrate on specific content on your Internet site because you can remove generic site pages and add custom extensions, like .pdf and .epub if you offer e-books. The sitemap generator can be used for any of your sites and it will automatically place a search engine friendly XML file in the selected website folder.
SiteMap Generator in Dedicated Hosting
The Hepsia web hosting Control Panel, which is among the options you can pick for your powerful dedicated server, contains a very easy-to-use sitemap generator. You shall be able to generate a sitemap for every site hosted on the server with just a few clicks and select how many levels down the web pages links should be crawled and how many links as a whole should be included. In order to individualize the sitemap even further, you'll also have the option to add custom file extensions to it that the generator will include, or you could delete any file extension from the default ones that you'll find any time you open the Sitemap section of the Control Panel. In this way, you can easily include specific sections of your website and remove others, so that the sitemap can include any custom website content that you may offer on the site instead of only the standard webpages.
|
ESSENTIALAI-STEM
|
User:Fatemah H.
I am a Kuwaiti graduate student at the Volgenau School of Engineering in George Mason University in Virginia. I got a master degree in Computer Science from the College of Computer Science and Engineering in University of Minnesota in the twin cities and another master degree in Information Technology from Kuwait University in Kuwait. I got my bachelor degree in Management Information System from the College of Business Administration in Kuwait University too.
Work Experience
* Computer Teacher, Ministry of Education, Kuwait.
* Programmer, General Secretary for the Supreme Council for Planning and Development, Kuwait.
* Instructor, The Public Authority for Applied Education and Training, Kuwait
* Teacher Assistant, Kuwait University, Kuwait
Research Publication
* Husain, F. and Abbas, H. "Education and technology in Kuwait democratic practice", International Academy of Business and Public Administration Disciplines (IABPAD), 2006.
|
WIKI
|
dim record (Language Help)
by DickStomp ⌂ @, Europe Netherlands Sassenheim, Saturday, July 19, 2014, 20:43 (1705 days ago)
What I barely need is a
DIM RECORD
A as INTEGER
$B as string *20
END DIM
then
A = 5
$B = "Amount"
LOCATE=5
WRITE RECORD at Location
Even in a structured file we have no possibility to read a RECORD in the RECORDmap or write a RECORDmap in a position of the file.
So we have no database functionality!
If I'm wrong, please show me the way...
--
it must be possible...
dim record
by Jim ⌂ @, Russell, KY, Monday, July 21, 2014, 18:56 (1703 days ago) @ DickStomp
Dick,
The functionality exists to open a file for "binary" io and then read and write individual bytes from it.
Below is a sample program using a function and a subroutine to read fixed length indexed blocks of text to and from a file. This looks like the functionality you were describing.
# fixed length text file IO
# j.m.reneau 2014-07-21
# DEMO ONLY WORKS WITH ASCII DATA
openb 0, "testdata.dat"
call writerecord(0,10,0,"one")
call writerecord(0,10,1,"two")
call writerecord(0,10,2,"three")
call writerecord(0,10,3,"four")
#
print "file"
for t = 0 to 3
print '"' + readrecord$(0,10,t) + '"'
next t
#
call writerecord(0,10,2,"three changed")
#
print
print "file as changed"
for t = 0 to 3
print '"' + readrecord$(0,10,t) + '"'
next t
#
close 0
function readrecord$(f, z, n)
# f file number - opened with openb
# z record size
# n record number (0...)
seek f, n*z
rec$ =""
for t = 1 to z
rec$ += chr(readbyte(f))
next t
return rec$
end function
subroutine writerecord(f, z, n, rec$)
# f file number - opened with openb
# z record size
# n record number (0...)
# rec$ record to write (padded with spaces)
while length(rec$)<z
rec$ += " "
end while
seek f, n*z
for t = 1 to z
writebyte f, asc(mid(rec$,t,1))
next t
end subroutine
You can also use the SQLite database functionality to actually create a real database and use SQL statetements to access your data. An example can be found in the documentation at http://doc.basic256.org/doku.php?id=en:dbopen
Hope this helps.
Jim
dim record
by DickStomp ⌂ @, Europe Netherlands Sassenheim, Tuesday, September 16, 2014, 06:37 (1646 days ago) @ Jim
Dear Jim,
Thank you for your excellent explanation!
Best regards,
Dick
--
it must be possible...
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|
ESSENTIALAI-STEM
|
TAO_Notify Namespace Reference
A namespace to be used by all of TAO's Notification Service implementation. More...
Classes
class Bit_Vector
Simple bit vector. More...
class Delivery_Request
Represents a request to deliver an event to a particular destination. More...
class Event_Persistence_Factory
interface to be implemented by specific Event_Persistence_Factories More...
class Event_Persistence_Strategy
Interface to be implemented by specific strategies. More...
class NVP
Name/Value Pair. More...
class NVPList
Collection of Name/Value Pairs. More...
class Persistent_Callback
An interface to allow callbacks on completion of persistent storage requests. More...
class Persistent_Storage_Block
A class to represent a block on disk. More...
class Persistent_File_Allocator
A class that manages the details of persistent storage. More...
class Random_File
A random file class. More...
class Reconnect_Worker
Iterate through children reconnecting after reloading persistent information. More...
class Reconnection_Registry
Implementation of ReconnectionRegistry. More...
class Routing_Slip
Class which manages the delivery of events to destination. More...
class Routing_Slip_Persistence_Manager
Manage interaction between Routing_Slip and persistent storage. More...
class Routing_Slip_Queue
A queue of Routing_Slips waiting to be persisted. More...
class Save_Persist_Worker
Iterate through children saving persistent topology information. More...
class Standard_Event_Persistence_Factory
Standard (i.e. default) implementation of Event_Persistence_Factory interface. More...
class Standard_Event_Persistence
The standard implementation of the Event_Persistence_Strategy interface. More...
class Topology_Factory
Service Object to allow dynamic control of the loaded saver factory. More...
class Topology_Loader
An interface for an object that loads Persistent Topology Information. More...
class Topology_Savable
Interface to be implemented by savable topology objects. More...
class Topology_Object
Base class for Persistent Topology Objects. More...
class Topology_Parent
Interface for topology objects that act as parents. More...
class Topology_Saver
An interface to be implemented by objects that save Topology. More...
class XML_Loader
Load Notification Service Topology from an XML file. More...
class XML_Saver
Save Notification Service Topology to an XML file. More...
class XML_Topology_Factory
Create XML topology savers and loaders. More...
Typedefs
typedef ACE_Strong_Bound_Ptr<
Delivery_Request, TAO_SYNCH_MUTEX
Delivery_Request_Ptr
A reference-counted smart pointer to a Delivery_Request.
typedef ACE_Unbounded_Queue<
Delivery_Request_Ptr
Delivery_Request_Queue
typedef ACE_Strong_Bound_Ptr<
Routing_Slip, TAO_SYNCH_MUTEX
Routing_Slip_Ptr
A reference-counted smart pointer to a Routing_Slip.
typedef ACE_Vector< Delivery_Request_PtrDelivery_Request_Vec
A vector of Delivery Requests. The body of a Routing_Slip.
typedef ACE_Vector< TAO_Notify_Method_Request_Queueable * > Delivery_Method_Vec
A vector of Methods_. Used during recovery.
typedef ACE_Vector< TAO_Notify_Object::IDIdVec
A vector of IDS. Used as a path from the EventChannelFactory to a proxy.
Variables
static const char REGISTRY_TYPE [] = "reconnect_registry"
static const char RECONNECT_ID [] = "ReconnectId"
static const char RECONNECT_IOR [] = "IOR"
static const char REGISTRY_CALLBACK_TYPE [] = "reconnect_callback"
TAO_Notify_Serv_Export Routing_Slip_Persistence_Manager
static const ACE_UINT32 ROUTING_SLIP_ROOT_BLOCK_NUMBER = 0
static const ACE_UINT64 ROUTING_SLIP_ROOT_SERIAL_NUMBER = 1
static const ACE_TCHAR TOPOLOGY_ID_NAME [] = ACE_TEXT ("TopologyID")
Detailed Description
A namespace to be used by all of TAO's Notification Service implementation.
The initial implementation used the TAO_Notify_ prefix rather than a namespace. As part of the reliable Notification Service project we started using this TAO_Notify namespace, but there are still many parts of the Notification Service that are in the global namespace with a TAO_NS prefix.
Typedef Documentation
typedef ACE_Vector<TAO_Notify_Method_Request_Queueable *> TAO_Notify::Delivery_Method_Vec
A vector of Methods_. Used during recovery.
typedef ACE_Strong_Bound_Ptr<Delivery_Request, TAO_SYNCH_MUTEX> TAO_Notify::Delivery_Request_Ptr
A reference-counted smart pointer to a Delivery_Request.
typedef ACE_Unbounded_Queue<Delivery_Request_Ptr> TAO_Notify::Delivery_Request_Queue
typedef ACE_Vector<Delivery_Request_Ptr> TAO_Notify::Delivery_Request_Vec
A vector of Delivery Requests. The body of a Routing_Slip.
typedef ACE_Vector<TAO_Notify_Object::ID> TAO_Notify::IdVec
A vector of IDS. Used as a path from the EventChannelFactory to a proxy.
typedef ACE_Strong_Bound_Ptr< Routing_Slip, TAO_SYNCH_MUTEX > TAO_Notify::Routing_Slip_Ptr
A reference-counted smart pointer to a Routing_Slip.
Variable Documentation
const char TAO_Notify::RECONNECT_ID[] = "ReconnectId" [static]
const char TAO_Notify::RECONNECT_IOR[] = "IOR" [static]
const char TAO_Notify::REGISTRY_CALLBACK_TYPE[] = "reconnect_callback" [static]
const char TAO_Notify::REGISTRY_TYPE[] = "reconnect_registry" [static]
class TAO_Notify_Serv_Export TAO_Notify::Routing_Slip_Persistence_Manager
const ACE_UINT32 TAO_Notify::ROUTING_SLIP_ROOT_BLOCK_NUMBER = 0 [static]
const ACE_UINT64 TAO_Notify::ROUTING_SLIP_ROOT_SERIAL_NUMBER = 1 [static]
const ACE_TCHAR TAO_Notify::TOPOLOGY_ID_NAME[] = ACE_TEXT ("TopologyID") [static]
Generated on Wed Nov 23 16:23:51 2005 for TAO_CosNotification by doxygen 1.4.5
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Steven Weitzman
Steven Weitzman may refer to:
* Steven Weitzman (sculptor) (born 1952), American public artist and designer
* Steven Weitzman (scholar) (born 1965), American scholar of Jewish studies and religious studies
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WIKI
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Will Having Dental Implants Placed Hurt?
Posted: August 15, 2019
Authored by:
Used to describe arduous, uncomfortable tasks, phrase, “like pulling teeth,” might make a dental implant patient wonder if placing teeth is just as grueling as pulling them. It turns out, having teeth placed is a lot more comfortable and often takes less time than having teeth pulled. Yet, having dental implants placed isn’t a completely pain-free process. Take a look at what goes into placing dental implants and find out how much pain you can expect from the dental implant placement procedure.
How You’ll Feel During the Procedure
If you can get past the needle, you’ll be given a dose of a local anesthetic that’ll numb the implant site, or sites. It’s a quick prick of a needle, but there are other solutions if you’re one of the many people who balk at needles.
If you have a fear of needles, a fear of dental procedures or an especially sensitive gag reflex, be sure to ask your dentist about these common sedation options your dentist will likely offer:
Oral sedation: if you have a fear of needles, taking a sedative orally can help keep you calm before you’re given your shot of local anesthesia. Because this sedative is administered orally, it’ll take a bit of time for it to kick in. So it could extend your appointment time.
Nitrous oxide (laughing gas): with a quicker onset than an oral sedative, nitrous oxide, administered through a face mask, can help wipe away your worries quickly.
IV sedation: if you can bear needles but can’t tolerate sitting still for a while or have a fear of dental drill, IV sedation is the best way to keep you calm ahead of your procedure. IV sedation is the most customizable form of dental sedation, as your dentist can measure out a dose specifically for you and your needs.
Find Out More from a Dentist in Venice, FL
Take a moment to choose a day and time to meet with a local dentist in Venice, FL or in Sarasota, FL to learn more about your options for getting dental implants or for answers to any other questions about dentistry.
Category :
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Talk:Our Lady of Grace (Encino)
Recommended items for improvement
* Infobox
* Notable alumni - properly cited
* History section - properly cited
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WIKI
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Talk:1937 Fleischer Studios strike/GA1
GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''
Reviewer: ArcticSeeress (talk · contribs) 10:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Hey, JJonahJackalope. I'm ArcticSeeress, and I'll be reviewing this nomination. ArcticSeeress (talk) 10:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Lead length
My first impression upon reading this article is that the lead is very lengthy. Per MOS:LEADLENGTH, it should ideally be four paragraphs or shorter, suggesting around 300 words. The lead currently sits at nearly 700 words. I'd suggest cutting out some of it. After you've made some revisions, I'll come back to the lead later to suggest possible revisions. ArcticSeeress (talk) 10:52, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* I trimmed the lead, though let me know if you have any further comments for it.
Working conditions at Fleischer Studios
ArcticSeeress (talk) 11:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* In the early years of the studio, the brothers tried to foster a strong sense of camaraderie among their employees (emphasis mine) - I can't find this in the source, specifically that they intentionally did this. The author writes that there was a "sense of family that pervaded the Studio", which is about all I could find in the source.
* Edited this section of the sentence to remove "tried", instead stated that there simply was a feeling of camaraderie among the employees.
* Max was generally considered a paternalistic boss - The sources don't say that he was "generally" considered this. This might be nitpicking, but they just outright say he was paternalistic. If it's too WP:WIKIVOICE-y to outright say it, maybe find a way to paraphrase it.
* Rephrased this section of the sentence, added and wikilinked the authors of the sources from which the information was gathered to avoid Wikivoice.
* such as Max's son-in-law Seymour Kneitel - The source doesn't say that Seymour worked there. It says that his daughter Ruth worked there until she married Seymour. If you can find another source that says he worked there, then please use that as a reference instead.
* Moved the Pointer 2017 source from Further reading to Sources and cited p. 62 in that book, which shows Seymour Kneitel as a member of the Fleischer Studios staff.
* two of Max's alma maters - The source make any mention of this as far as I can tell.
* The source (Deneroff 1987, p. 1) states, "Max Fleischer himself had attended Cooper Union and the Art Students' League". Per the WP article on the subject, an alma mater is "a school that a person formerly attended or graduated from".
* Remove the space before Note 1
* Done.
* new hires making as low as $17.40 per week - The source says "less skilled workers were earning as little as $17.40 per week". "less skilled workers" and "new hires" are not the same.
* Removed the phrase "new hires".
* These low wages may have been because of a large labor pool for Fleischer to hire from - The source does not make this claim anywhere. This reads like original research.
* Removed this part of the sentence and rephrased the remaining bit that discussed the impact the closure of Van Beuren had on wages, per Koszarski 2008.
* due in large part to the closure of The Van Beuren Corporation - The source does not say that it was in large part due to it closing down. It just says that the closing lowered salaries in the industry. It does not specify whether the wages at the Fleischer Studio were caused by this. A better way of rewriting this entire sentence might be something like "Wages in the animation industry were affected negatively by the closure of the Van Beuren Corporation". Tweak as you see fit. I'd suggest finding a source that makes a direct connection between these.
* Discussed the changes made in the bullet point above. I may do some more digging to see if there are any sources that more directly link the closure of Van Beuren to decreased wages at Fleischer, but from what I recall, the Koszarski 2008 source was the only one I saw that discussed it at any length.
* many of the younger new hires lived - The source does not call them "new hires"
* Replaced "new hires" with "employees".
Unionization
ArcticSeeress (talk) 12:16, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* Indeed, CADU was a popular front organization with ties to the Communist Party of the United States, which provided support and planning for the union
* Remove the word "indeed", per MOS:EDITORIAL
* Done.
* The source does not state that the Communist Party provided support for the group
* Rephrased section to more accurately reflect the connection between the CADU and the Communist Party.
* with union activists believing that - The source just says "apparently". I'm not sure who the author considered this apparent to, so just find a way to attribute this information to the author.
* Rephrased sentence to directly attribute the information to Deneroff.
* many inbetweeners believed - The source says "he and others" believed this. Please revise.
* Edited sentence, additionally fixed reference, as the information is found on p. 8, not p. 7.
CADU seeks...
ArcticSeeress (talk) 12:47, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* employees who had been affiliated in some fashion with the union - The source just says "13 more Union members were fired". It doesn't seem appropriate to characterize members of the union as "affiliated in some fashion", which suggests uncertainty.
* Rephrased section accordingly.
* I suggest changing 13 employees to "thirteen employees", including the number 13 on its own a sentence later. [not really necessary ArcticSeeress (talk) 13:29, 3 August 2023 (UTC)]
* Changed from 13 to thirteen.
* that they would honor the picket line. (emphasis mine) - Who is this "they" referring to? It makes logical sense for it to be the animators and animators' assistants, but the referrent is still syntactically ambiguous. I'd suggest revising.
* Replaced "they" with "animators".
Early strike actions
ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* and Lillian Friedman Astor - Deneroff 1987, p. 10 says that she respected the picket line until Thursday. Maybe revise this a bit.
* Added note specifying that Astor initially honored the picket line, but returned to work during the strike.
Boycott
Nothing to comment on here. ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
NLRB hearings
Nothing to comment on. ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
End of the strike
ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* until late 1937 - Why not specify the date? The source says it ended on October 13.
* I added a note regarding Koszarski's date of October 13 to a later part of this section dealing with the agreement that had been reached between the union and the studio.
* while the company was supporter a fan of organized labor - What does this mean?
* Apologies for the typo there, but I have rephrased the sentence to include information from Sito regarding Paramount's role in the strike.
Contract details
ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:36, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* , one week of paid time off for sick days and vacation - The sources are kind of vague here: Sito 2006 states "one week of paid vacation, holidays, sick leave"; Hunt 2020 states "vacations and sick leave with pay". The first quote is up to interpretation of whether "holidays" and "sick leave" are part of the "one week" or part of the "Fleischer consented to". Strictly speaking, the list only states that they were consented to by Fleischer. If this is an error on the author's side, then it might be best to either exclude this information, or find another source that states the parts of the agreement with clearer language. As it stands, it seems like you synthesized information from the two sources to come up with this statement.
* Rephrased the sentence slightly and added a note giving further information regarding the exact phrasing from the sources.
Later history
ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:56, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* The strike severely changed the dynamic in the office, as animator Orsestes Calpini recalls, "the family feeling was gone". - There should be a semicolon instead of a comma, as they are two independent clauses.
* Done.
* which occurred less than a year later - The source says "The following year". The information mentioned prior was in October 1937, so therefore sometime in 1938. Where do you get "less than a year later" from this? Is there no more specific info on this?
* The "less than a year later", in the context of the Wikipedia article, references January 21, 1938, when Max announced his plans to move. As the move occurred in 1938 (since the Hunt article states that it occurred the following year from 1937), it would have been less than a year after the January 1938 announcement.
* the union had a much smaller presence at the new location - The source just says "union presence". It mentions no specific union.
* Slightly rephrased sentence.
Image review
All images used in the article have appropriate licencing. Captions are fine. I'd appreciate alt text, but that is not a GA criterion. ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:59, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Preliminary assessment
The article has some issue for now. I'll put the article on hold until you can rectify them. Good work on the article so far. ArcticSeeress (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* I just realised the assessment I gave is quite vague, so: The article has some issues with original research (as far as I could tell). Otherwise the article seems to be in accordance with the other GA criteria (except for a sentence I couldn't make out the meaning of, i.e. criteria 1a). ArcticSeeress (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* , I just wanted to ping you to let you know that I have made some edits to the article to address the points you raised in your review. Thank you for initiating this review, and if you have any further questions, comments, or concerns regarding the article, please let me know. Thanks, JJonahJackalope (talk) 17:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* I can't believe my brain managed to confuse "alma maters" with "graduates". Oops! I still think the lead may be too long, so maybe I'll ask for a second opinion on it after I've looked over your changes. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:01, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* stated that The New York Times reported that - I feel like this is a bit of an awkward sentence. Maybe find a way to rephrase it. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* I just realised you may not have this in your watchlist. Here's your ping; @JJonahJackalope. ArcticSeeress (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
* , hey, just wanted to reach out to let you know that I rephrased that footnote, which I agree, was awkwardly phrased. -JJonahJackalope (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
* Thanks. I added a comma to the note to split up the subordinate and the independent clauses. Reading through the lead, there isn't anything that stands out. While I commented the length of the lead earlier, the way it is now is sufficient to reach GA status. Maybe an FA reviewer would be more stringent, but I don't really see myself holding a nomination back because of one potential issue. I'll go through the criteria again in a bit. ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
GA criteria
* GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
* 1) It is reasonably well written.
* a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
* While the lead is lengthy, it is not a deal breaker.
* 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
* a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
* While originally containing unverified material, that has been rectified by the nominator.
* 1) It is broad in its coverage.
* a (major aspects): b (focused):
* 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
* Fair representation without bias:
* 1) It is stable.
* No edit wars, etc.:
* 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
* a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
* See "image review" section above.
* 1) Overall:
* Pass/Fail:
* The article fulfills all the GA criteria.
* 1) Overall:
* Pass/Fail:
* The article fulfills all the GA criteria.
I'll give this article a pass. Good work! ArcticSeeress (talk) 14:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
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WIKI
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Talk:Crazy Taxi (video game)
Vandal
There was already quite a bit on this article, then it was vandalized and started from scratch. Is there a particular reason for this? Jacoplane 19:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* I mean, I think if the current revision and this old revision were to be combined, the article would be quite complete. Jacoplane 19:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* Even that version was vandalised. I reverted the page to a previous revision. This article still could be expanded with info on Crazy Taxi 2 and Crazy Taxi 3. Needs a good cleanup too K1Bond007 19:58, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
* There definetly needs to be more -- combining the two would be a good starts -- but I'm not about to be the one to make a large edit on this particular game, as I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough about the series. Melodia Chaconne 9 July 2005 19:20 (UTC)
* We previously had merged all the Crazy Taxi articles here, only someone broke the article up once again. Never was explained. K1Bond007 20:02, July 9, 2005 (UTC)
Release dates
This article says "Crazy Taxi was first released in arcades in 1998 and was ported to the Dreamcast in 1999." But the Crazy Taxi series article says, "Crazy Taxi is a series of video games,...first released to arcades in 1999. The success of the arcade version prompted Sega to release the game on their Dreamcast console in 2000." Which is right? -Hyad 05:22, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
the champions section is a bit silly :/
These scores are not remotely noteworthy or interesting. The score by Stuart Morrison, of Wokingham, England is not even difficult to beat for a good player player. I know that this has been beaten (A german player got 14,929.53) and this mode isn't really the main point of the game.
The J.C. Padilla score is good, sure, but far from a world record. He was playing on time setting 1 (out of 8) and 70 seconds start time. Again, any experienced player can gain a large amount of time and pick up every customer on the map. The default time setting is 4 and 50 seconds start time. A Japanese player called PNY has beaten J.C. Padilla's score anyway, see here: http://www.aiva.emuita.it/c.php and this was probably on a harder setting. Although I don't have the link to hand, people have broken $105k with difficulty settings 8/8/50 which compared to J.C.Padilla's 4/1/70 game makes the mention of these non-record scores really seem pointless.
Also there are no mentions of world records or high scores on other games which don't have a particular notarity for it, see Dodonpachi, Ikaruga, Sega Rally, blah blah blah.
I have to agree, I myself can easily beat 14k! In fact, the top award (Crazy) is not given until you hit 20k. You need to be lucky to beat the 100k barrier, but scores of 70-80k are regularly and easily obtainable for skilled players. I suggest the scores be removed, and mention only made of the Seganet scoring system and the fact that there was some competition amoung top players. Mention should also be made of the rankings available. Mojo-chan 22:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Movie Adaptation?
Could anyone write a section containing information regarding Crazy Taxi being developed for the silver screen? I would myself, but I just completed one for another game and I didn't want them to sound similar in their format. Thanks for anyone that can help.
* Maybe providing a source for this (dubious) information would elicit a better response. The Kinslayer 11:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
PC Port
Given the Dreamcast version supports a wheel (see manual, guides (like this)), I don't really see how the PC port supporting a wheel was really an advantage for it, as stated in the article. Lucidion 16:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Soundtracks?
Can someone add the soundtracks ?
* "Add the soundtracks"? Do you mean "add the titles of the songs"? They have already been added. Devil Master 23:41, 3 December 2006 (MET)
PC version soundtrack
The soundtrack for the PC version features different songs that its arcade and Dreamcast counterpart. Who made those songs? What are their titles? Are their lyrics available anywhere? Devil Master 23:43, 3 December 2006 (MET)
Narrator Voice?
Does anyone have a reliable source for who provided the voice of the game's narrator ("Hey, hey, hey, you're goin' the wrong way!")? I read somewhere years ago that it was Wolfman Jack or someone doing an impersonation of him, but I suspect that's false. Radical AdZ (talk) 13:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Soundtrack removal
Why was the soundtrack/song listing removed? Seemed a handy list to me. I'm tempted to put it back, but it was taken off by Teancum who seems to be a diligent editor on this page... any thoughts? Jeremysee (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
* It was removed per the standards, which basically are that unless the soundtrack was released commercially it is not listed on the page. --Teancum (talk) 02:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Crazy Taxi for Playstation 1
The game should also be listed for Playstation 1, I don't know why it isn't because there was a version for playstation 1. My best friends' brother still has a copy of it.<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:56, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
* I'd love to see a picture of that. No there wasn't. Sorry.2601:601:D01:7740:C89B:85D9:A444:7FEE (talk) 07:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Crazy Taxi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
* Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150508053801/http://www.nowgamer.com/features/423/top-25-racing-games-ever-part-1 to http://www.nowgamer.com/features/423/top-25-racing-games-ever-part-1
* Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100924022249/http://arcade-game-sales.com/products/crazy-taxi/6745-1.html to http://www.arcade-game-sales.com/products/crazy-taxi/6745-1.html
Cheers. —cyberbot II Talk to my owner :Online 06:01, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 1 one external link on Crazy Taxi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Crazy Taxi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:58, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Crazy Taxi's category/genre
I am uncertain of calling Crazy Taxi a "racing" game. There's no racing involved in the game at all. Yes, the player races "against the clock", but that's a common feature of many kinds of video games. It would seem that the only reason Crazy Taxi is a racing game is that the player operates a vehicle. But, for example, Twisted Metal and Driv3r are not considered racing games. I am aware that Crazy Taxi is mentioned in the racing game article, and I would contest that. The fact is that racing games must involve getting from point A to point B faster than one or more opponents. Crazy Taxi involves getting from point A to point B quickly, but not in relation to any opponent. Thoughts? Scapulus <converse> 22:16, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
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WIKI
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Sequence-structure and structure-function analysis in cysteine-rich domains forming the ultrastable nematocyst wall
2007
Authors: Meier S, Jensen PR, Adamczyk P, Bächinger HP, Holstein TW, Engel J, Ozbek S, Grzesiek S
CellNetworks People: Holstein Thomas
Journal: J Mol Biol. 2007 May 4;368(3):718-28. doi:10.1016/j.jmb.2007.02.026
The nematocyst wall of cnidarians is a unique biomaterial that withstands extreme osmotic pressures, allowing an ultrafast discharge of the nematocyst capsules. Assembly of the highly robust nematocyst wall is achieved by covalent linkage of cysteine-rich domains (CRDs) from two main protein components, minicollagens and nematocyst outer wall antigen (NOWA). The bipolar minicollagens have different disulfide patterns and topologies in their N and C-terminal CRDs. The functional significance of this polarity has been elusive. Here, we show by NMR structural analysis that all representative cysteine-rich domains of NOWA are structurally related to N-terminal minicollagen domains. Natural sequence insertions in NOWA CRDs have very little effect on the tightly knit domain structures, nor do they preclude the efficient folding to a single native conformation. The different folds in NOWA CRDs and the atypical C-terminal minicollagen domain on the other hand can be directly related to different conformational preferences in the reduced states. Ultrastructural analysis in conjunction with aggregation studies argues for an association between the similar NOWA and N-terminal minicollagen domains in early stages of the nematocyst wall assembly, which is followed by the controlled association between the unusual structures of C-terminal minicollagen domains.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Backup your Games
The primary reason for jailbreaking any device is to install cracked applications. But it can also be used to backup your games. For instance, if you're a bit clumsy and have the habit of lending your games to careless friends, this feature comes in really handy as it allows you to back up the entire game onto your hard drive so you can play it whenever without the need of a disc. You will lose online play but for games without a multiplayer features like God of War, it won't make a huge difference.
Save a lot of Dough
The next obvious pro would have to be all the money you'll save especially since console games aren't exactly cheap. Games are available on the Internet if you know where to look. After that, it's just a matter of transferring the games into the PS3and playing them.
Homebrew Apps and Games
A lot of developers have released custom applications also know as homebrew apps that extend the functionality of the PS3. For instance, there are PS One and Nintendo emulators available that let you play those games on the console. An app called Multiman allows you to backup your PS3 games onto your hard drive where as BlackBox is very useful FTP server that let's you quickly transfer files into the PS3 without a portable hard drive.
1. Download the PSJ Files according to your current FW.
2. Extract Files into a booted clean USB stick or brand new.
3. Insert the USB into your PS3, Install the update from the stick as you would when updating.
4. Once its updated, you can now install any homebrew apps.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Mean force and fluctuations on a wall immersed in a sheared granular flow - Archive ouverte HAL Access content directly
Journal Articles Physical Review E Year : 2019
Mean force and fluctuations on a wall immersed in a sheared granular flow
Abstract
In a sheared and confined granular flow, the mean force and the force fluctuations on a rigid wall are studied by means of numerical simulations based on the discrete element method. An original periodic immersed-wall system is designed to investigate a wide range of confinement pressure and shearing velocity imposed at the top of the flow, considering different obstacle heights. The mean pressure on the wall relative to the confinement pressure is found to be a monotonic function of the boundary macroscopic inertial number which encapsulates the confinement pressure, the shearing velocity, and the thickness of the sheared layer above the wall. The one-to-one relation is slightly affected by the length of the granular system. The force fluctuations on the wall are quantified through the analysis of both the distributions of grain-wall contact forces and the autocorrelation of force time series. The distributions narrow as the boundary macroscopic inertial number decreases, moving from asymmetric log-normal shape to nearly Gaussian-type shape. That evolution of the grain-wall force distributions is accompanied at the lowest inertial numbers by the occurrence of a system memory in terms of the force transmitted to the wall, provided that the system length is not too large. Moreover, the distributions of grain-wall contact forces are unchanged when the inertial number is increased above a critical value. All those results allow to clearly identify the transitions from quasistatic to dense inertial, and from dense inertial to collisional, granular flow regimes.
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hal-02123563 , version 1 (18-06-2019)
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François Kneib, Thierry Faug, Frédéric Dufour, Mohamed Naaim. Mean force and fluctuations on a wall immersed in a sheared granular flow. Physical Review E , 2019, 99 (5), pp.052901. ⟨10.1103/PhysRevE.99.052901⟩. ⟨hal-02123563⟩
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Emil Rittershaus
Friedrich Emil Rittershaus (3 April 1834 – 8 March 1897) was a German poet.
Biography
He was born in Barmen (now Wuppertal), Kingdom of Prussia. His poetry, marked by simple feeling, fine diction, and original matter, won great popularity. He died in Barmen. His daughter, Adeline, was a philologist, scholar, and champion for the equality of women.
He was a member of the Wuppertal poets' circle in the 1850s. He knew Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and wrote several letters to them in 1867–1868.
Selected works
* Westfalenlied (song) (Westphalia Anthem; 1886)
* Westfalenlied (song) (Westphalia Anthem; 1886)
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WIKI
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Talk:Xiao Cong
External links modified
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Requested move 5 April 2018
The result of the move request was: consensus to move the three "Western Liang" articles; no clear consensus to move Emperor Jing of Liang, but please feel free to initiate a standalone request to discuss the issue of that article's title further as necessary. Dekimasu よ! 10:17, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
– The so-called "Western Liang", for which we have no separate article, was simply a rump state of the Liang dynasty, at least after the year 557. ("Western" was an adjective added by later historians.) Therefore Xiao Cong was also an Emperor Jing of Liang, which makes this title ambiguous (Xiao Fangzhi had a different Chinese character for the sound "Jing").
* Emperor Jing of Western Liang → Xiao Cong
* Emperor Jing of Liang → Xiao Fangzhi
* Emperor Xuan of Western Liang → Xiao Cha
* Emperor Ming of Western Liang → Xiao Kui
English-language sources on these emperors are virtually nonexistent. It's important to think about the historical background and recognize two things: 1) Liang dynasty after the year 548 was in complete turmoil, and these 4 emperors were all puppets who only controlled a portion of the original Liang empire. (Specifically, Western Liang was a small puppet state subservient to the Western Wei, Northern Zhou and Sui dynasties in Northwest China. Xiao Fangzhi (who BTW "ruled" concurrently with the Western Liang "emperor" Xiao Cha) was a puppet emperor dominated by the general Chen Baxian.) 2) We already couldn't use the "Emperor X of Liang" format for two "legitimate" Liang emperors Xiao Dong and Xiao Yuanming and 3 "illegitimate" emperors Xiao Ji, Xiao Zhengde, and Xiao Zhuang (all from the years 548–560 who contested for supremacy and legitimacy). In other words, we won't be moving away from WP:CONSISTENCY with these moves.
I will invite User:Nlu who pretty much authored every one of these articles and is undoubtedly the preeminent Wiki expert on the Liang. Timmyshin (talk) 16:25, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
* Leaning toward support. In general, I am of the philosophy that Wikipedia should gradually switch away from using imperial titles to using personal names, to avoid POV issues. However, in this case, romp state as it might be, it was a continuation of Liang, so I can also see the point of keeping the imperial titles if we are not generally abolishing them. --Nlu (talk) 23:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
* My view is that imperial titles may be kept for centralized, long-lived empires like Han, Tang, Song etc., at least when they were sufficiently stable. The Liang dynasty after 548 was anything but stable. To avoid POV issues like you mentioned, Xiao Yuanming and Xiao Cha who ruled simultaneously ideally should use the same format, but the former doesn't have an imperial title (The epithet Emperor Min was given by Xiao Zhuang who was "illegitimate"). Currently, with the imperial title it may seem like Xiao Cha was the more legitimate Liang emperor when Xiao Yuanming was actually the one in Jiankang. Timmyshin (talk) 10:45, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
* The additional problems with Western Liang are 1) we don't have an article yet, and 2) many books call it Later Liang (Gbook hits: "Western Liang" + "Xiao Cha" = 259, "Later Liang" + "Xiao Cha" = 209, not a big difference). Either name is ambiguous (see Western Liang and Later Liang) and not sufficiently recognizable. Timmyshin (talk) 10:52, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
* Support. It's not for us to judge legitimacy, but rather to follow the best available sources. I have Historical Dictionary of Medieval China by Victor Cunrui Xiong. It gives the names of all these rulers in the proposed format. Xiong doesn't mention any alternative forms. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 09:38, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
* Support for the three Western Liang rulers, but Oppose for Emperor Jing of Liang per naming convention. Liang dynasty is usually considered a dynasty or empire in Chinese historiography, whereas Western Liang was a short-lived splinter state that ruled a tiny area. -Zanhe (talk) 23:11, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
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WIKI
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Page:America's National Game (1911).djvu/61
either one hits the ball you must both run and exchange places. If the ball is thrown and hits either one of you, that one must give way to the fellow who threw it." The game of Two Old Cat was thus developed in order to include Four Boys, Two Bats, Two Bases and a Ball.
By this time the game of Base Ball is becoming popular. Next Saturday, when Tom, Dick, Harry and Jim go out on the commons to have a game of Two Old Cat, Frank and Ned join them with hopes of getting into the game.
"No use," says the pessimistic Dick; "only four can play at this game. You see, we've got two catchers and two hitters now, and that's all we can have."
"Oh, I don't know," says Tom. "What's the matter with having a three-cornered game? then we all can play."
The game is tried three-cornered. It works all right, and Three Old Cat, with Six Boys, Three Bats, Three Bases and a Ball has added another step in the evolution of our American game.
The interest increases. Eight Boys want a chance to play at the same time. An equilateral ground is chosen, about forty feet each way. The sport is tried out in that form and is found to meet the purpose. But now the game is becoming cumbersome. It is slow and unsatisfactory in some respects. The multiplication of players introduces elements of discord. Dissensions arise. No two agree as to the proper way of playing the game. There are no printed rules available for the village commons. Interest, meanwhile, is growing, and more and
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WIKI
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Tienshanosaurus
Tienshanosaurus (meaning "Tienshan lizard") is an extinct genus of dinosaur from the Late Jurassic. It was a sauropod which lived in what is now China. Only one species is known, Tienshanosaurus chitaiensis, which was named and described in 1937.
Discovery and classification
On 11 September 1928 Chinese geology professor Yuan Fu ("P.L. Yüan") discovered in Xinjiang the remains of about thirty adult and three juvenile sauropods, which he uncovered during the following weeks. The finds, including a fossilized egg, were sent to Beijing where they ultimately became part of the collection of the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology. In 1937 paleontologist Yang Zhongjian ("C.C. Young") named the type species Tienshanosaurus chitaiensis. The generic name, suggested by Yuan, refers to the Tian Shan, the "heavenly mountains". The specific name refers to the location Chitai or Qitai.
The holotype, IVPP AS 40002-3, was found near Paikushan, Luanshantze, in sandstone of the Shishugou Formation dating from the Oxfordian. It consists of elements of the postcrania. A considerable part of the skeleton is known but not the skull or the lower jaws. The body length has been estimated at twelve metres.
In 1991 Ralph Molnar renamed Euhelopus zdanskyi to Tienshanosaurus zdanskyi, despite the species having priority over T. chitaiensis, made possible by the fact that Euhelopus is a renaming of the earlier Helopus. Meanwhile, Valérie Martin-Rolland renamed T. chitaiensis into Euhelopus chitaiensis.
Due to the fragmentary nature of the material and a limited description, it has not been easy to establish the affinities of Tienshanosaurus. Originally classified in the Helopodinae, it has been assigned to many groups, among them the Astrodontidae, Euhelopodidae, Brachiosauridae, and Camarasauridae, but recent consensus (2011) has been to assign Tienshanosaurus to Mamenchisauridae.
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WIKI
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Europe Defends Supports
Stock traders fight bravely to keep the bullish sentiment alive. In Europe, a defense is not happening in a random place. Both FTSE and DAX are protecting ultra important horizontal supports, 7100 and 11900 points respectively. FTSE did a good job but the situation on the DAX looks slightly better from the technical point of view. In addition to the defense of the crucial support, we do have a bullish engulfing candlestick pattern here which only strengthens the buy signal.
Something from the Forex market - GBPJPY . The pair is moving very technical and on a daily chart, we do have a nice sell signal. First, we broke the lower line of the wedge and the horizontal support and now, we are using this support as a resistance. What is important, is that we are seeing a bearish reaction here, which increases bearish hopes for a bigger drop. The potential target is 700 pips lower!
This article is written by Tomasz Wisniewski, a senior analyst at Alpari Research & Analysis
This article was originally posted on FX Empire
More From FXEMPIRE:
NEM's XEM Technical Analysis - NEM's XEM Breaking Resistance Barriers 08/03/2018
Daily Market Forecast, March 8, 2017 - EUR/USD, Gold, Crude Oil, USD/JPY, GBP/USD
European Share Markets: Investors Await ECB Press Conference
The views and opinions expressed herein are the views and opinions of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of Nasdaq, Inc.
The views and opinions expressed herein are the views and opinions of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of Nasdaq, Inc.
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NEWS-MULTISOURCE
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Scheduling + WHAT TO EXPECT
Laying the foundation
Chiropractic Functional Neuroscience care is like building a house or putting a puzzle together - certain things have to happen in a particular order for everything to work correctly. When building a house, if you tried to put up your walls before you had a solid foundation, your walls would be weak and would eventually collapse. If you tried to put on your roof before the walls were ready, you would run into the same problem. The same is true for your Central Nervous System (CNS) also known as your brain and spinal cord. Your CNS has to go through a particular plan of care in order to repair itself as correctly and fully as possible.
The basic goal of and type of repair of the CNS is through “Neuroplasticity”. Neuro=“Neuron,” which is the nerve cells inner brain and nervous system. Plasticity = “Plastic,” which means “changeable, malleable, modifiable.” Basically, the brain and nervous system CAN CHANGE and the research proves that it can. It is a simple as learning a new language, learning to ride a bike, learning how to play a card game and learning how respond emotionally.
Unfortunately, there is good and bad “neuroplasticity.” Simple examples of bad neuroplasticity are chronic pain, anxiety, depression and PTSD. Most TBI/concussions resolve on their own, but some don’t, and that injured brain has now become plastic to its injured and compensated function.
There are three general phases of Functional Neural Science Care:
Phase 1: Initial visit
Try to find the localized level of your lesion (LOL)…where the root of the problem is coming from. This could be in many places from receptors in the muscles, ligaments, skin or joints. It could be in the sensory pathways from any of these receptors to the spinal cord or the motor pathways from the spinal cord to the muscles. It could be in the spinal cord. It could be in your brainstem or in the cortex of the brain itself. This is found by a thorough history that you will give us. Our office uses evidence based diagnostic equipment on the first visit. A physical examination is then performed by one of the doctors at SWBPC (this is usually Dr. Pendleton). They may order more testing at that time in the form of blood, saliva or urine testing. You will be given an assessment of what they believe is your problem at that time. The root problem will hopefully be found on your first or second visit to the office.
Phase 2: Weeklong Neurological intensive treatment/therapy
During this phase, a typical patient is seen 3 times per day for 5 days in order to create Neuroplasticity. The first day of treatment is when the doctors will determine what therapies they will be implementing for the week. While we do have patients that return for additional care, 80% of our patients only need to be seen for 5 days. At the end of your treatment, the doctor will give you a specific home exercise program that must be followed to promote long term potentiation (hard wiring your neuroplastic changes). The doctor will make a recommendation for continued care with your primary doctor or therapist, and whether returning to the SWBPC in the future will be beneficial.
Phase 3: Long term potentiation
Once your injuries have fully healed, it is important to come in for periodic re-evaluations and adjustments to your home exercise program or simple chiropractic adjustments to avoid problems in the future. Usually, this only requires a quick visit every 4-12 weeks (depending on the patient).
Your First Visit
Patient Forms
Upon entering our office, our receptionist will welcome you as a member of our family. Your new patient paperwork will have been previously FULLY completed on our website and downloaded to your secure patient file, so additional paperwork should be minimal. This paperwork provides us with your health history and information on your condition, so the more information you give us, the more comprehensive and beneficial your examination will be.
Consultation
Next, you will have a consultation with Dr. Michael Pendleton to discuss your health-related problems, concerns, and potential treatment options. This initial visit is designed for Dr. Pendleton to learn more about you, your condition, and your expectations to determine how chiropractic care can meet your goals.
Examination
After your consultation, Dr. Pendleton will perform a neurological and orthopedic examination testing your balance, eye movements, reflexes, sensation, gait and strength. However, nothing will be done in our office without your consent.
X-Ray Studies
Depending on your specific condition, we may send you to an outside provider for x-rays. X-rays help us develop the most effective treatment plan for you, and alert us of any serious spinal conditions. Most people are amazed once they see their X-rays up close. In some cases, they can even identify their misalignments and degeneration themselves.
Report of Findings
Once the information is collected and examinations are performed, Dr. Pendleton will give you a detailed summary of all findings and answer any questions including:
How can you help me?
How often do I need to come in?
What will my treatment cost?
After reviewing your health history, diagnostic findings, and examining you, Dr. Pendleton will discuss recommendations and notify you if your condition requires care with other providers. Dr. Pendleton will provide the best treatment program for your needs.
Treatment
At the conclusion of this initial appointment, you will be given an idea of what is needed to address your problem(s). This will include one or numerous treatments to include eye movement exercises, certain passive movements with your arms or legs, microcurrent electrical stimulation, laser therapy and/or chiropractic manipulative therapy. It may also include being given referrals for laboratory studies, imaging studies or to see other providers. This will not be performed without your consent.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Navigating Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in Recovery
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that can develop after experiencing or witnessing a traumatic event. It is characterized by a range of symptoms, including intrusive thoughts, nightmares, flashbacks, and severe anxiety. While many people are familiar with PTSD, there is a lesser-known subtype called complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD). C-PTSD is often the result of prolonged exposure to trauma, such as ongoing childhood abuse or domestic violence.
Understanding complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD)
Complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) is a more severe and chronic form of PTSD. It is typically caused by repeated and prolonged traumatic experiences, often involving interpersonal relationships. Unlike PTSD, which is usually triggered by a single traumatic event, C-PTSD develops over time as a result of ongoing trauma. This can make it more challenging to recognize and diagnose.
Individuals with C-PTSD often experience a wide range of symptoms that can affect their daily lives and relationships. These symptoms may include emotional dysregulation, dissociation, difficulty forming and maintaining relationships, and a distorted sense of self. It is important to understand that C-PTSD is not a character flaw or a sign of weakness. It is a natural response to prolonged trauma and can be managed with appropriate support and treatment.
Symptoms and triggers of C-PTSD
C-PTSD manifests differently in each individual, but there are common symptoms and triggers that many people with this condition experience. Symptoms may include chronic feelings of shame and guilt, difficulty trusting others, self-destructive behavior, and a persistent sense of hopelessness. Triggers are events or situations that remind individuals of their past trauma and can cause a significant emotional response. These triggers can vary from person to person but may include certain smells, sounds, or specific situations that resemble the original traumatic experiences.
Recognizing the symptoms and triggers of C-PTSD is crucial for individuals on their recovery journey. By identifying these patterns, individuals can develop strategies to manage their symptoms and avoid triggers, ultimately leading to a better quality of life.
The impact of C-PTSD on daily life and relationships
Living with C-PTSD can have a profound impact on daily life and relationships. Individuals with C-PTSD often struggle with emotional regulation, which can lead to difficulties in managing stress, anger, and anxiety. This can make it challenging to maintain stable employment, engage in healthy relationships, and participate in social activities. In addition, the symptoms of C-PTSD can cause feelings of isolation and detachment, making it difficult to connect with others and form meaningful relationships.
Furthermore, the impact of C-PTSD is not limited to the individual alone. Family members, friends, and loved ones may also be affected by the condition, as they may struggle to understand and support the person with C-PTSD. It is important for both individuals with C-PTSD and their support systems to educate themselves about the condition and seek professional help to navigate its challenges effectively.
Navigating the recovery process for C-PTSD
Recovery from complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) is a journey that requires time, patience, and commitment. It is essential to remember that everyone’s recovery process is unique and may involve different strategies and approaches. However, there are several key steps that can be helpful in navigating the recovery process.
1. Seeking professional help: It is crucial to work with a qualified mental health professional who specializes in trauma and C-PTSD. They can provide guidance, support, and evidence-based treatments to help individuals manage their symptoms and work towards healing.
2. Building a support network: Surrounding oneself with a supportive network of friends, family, and professionals is essential for recovery. This network can provide emotional support, understanding, and encouragement throughout the journey.
3. Engaging in therapy: Therapy can be a crucial component of C-PTSD recovery. Different therapeutic approaches, such as cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT), eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR), and dialectical behavior therapy (DBT), can help individuals process their trauma, develop coping mechanisms, and learn new ways of managing their symptoms.
By incorporating these steps into the recovery process, individuals with C-PTSD can gradually regain control over their lives and move towards healing and growth.
Therapeutic approaches for C-PTSD recovery
When it comes to recovering from complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD), there are several therapeutic approaches that have shown promise in helping individuals heal and regain control over their lives.
1. Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT): CBT is a widely used therapeutic approach for trauma-related conditions, including C-PTSD. It focuses on identifying and changing negative thought patterns and behaviors that contribute to distressing symptoms. CBT can help individuals develop healthier coping strategies and challenge distorted beliefs about themselves and the world.
2. Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR): EMDR is a specialized form of therapy that aims to reprocess traumatic memories and reduce their emotional impact. It involves the use of bilateral stimulation, such as eye movements or taps, to help individuals process and integrate traumatic experiences. EMDR has been shown to be effective in reducing the symptoms of C-PTSD and promoting emotional healing.
3. Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT): DBT combines elements of CBT with mindfulness practices and acceptance-based strategies. It focuses on helping individuals regulate their emotions, improve interpersonal relationships, and develop effective coping skills. DBT can be particularly beneficial for individuals with C-PTSD, as it addresses the emotional dysregulation and difficulties in relationships often associated with the condition.
It is important to remember that therapy is not a one-size-fits-all approach, and what works for one person may not work for another. It may take time and experimentation to find the right therapeutic approach that resonates with the individual’s needs and preferences.
Self-care strategies for managing C-PTSD symptoms
Self-care plays a crucial role in managing and alleviating the symptoms of complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD). By prioritizing self-care, individuals can enhance their overall well-being and support their recovery journey. Here are some self-care strategies that can be helpful in managing C-PTSD symptoms:
1. Practice mindfulness: Mindfulness is a powerful tool for grounding oneself in the present moment and reducing anxiety and stress. Engaging in mindfulness exercises, such as deep breathing, meditation, or yoga, can help individuals become more aware of their thoughts and emotions, fostering a sense of inner calm.
2. Engage in regular physical activity: Exercise has been shown to be beneficial for mental health and can help reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. Engaging in regular physical activity, such as walking, jogging, or dancing, can boost mood, increase energy levels, and improve overall well-being.
3. Establish healthy boundaries: Setting and maintaining healthy boundaries is crucial for individuals with C-PTSD. This involves recognizing one’s limits, communicating assertively, and prioritizing self-care. By establishing boundaries, individuals can protect their emotional well-being and reduce the risk of being re-traumatized.
4. Nurture healthy relationships: Building and nurturing healthy relationships can provide individuals with a strong support system during their recovery journey. Surrounding oneself with understanding and compassionate individuals who respect boundaries and offer emotional support can be invaluable in managing C-PTSD symptoms.
By incorporating these self-care strategies into their daily routine, individuals with C-PTSD can enhance their overall well-being and support their recovery process.
Support systems and resources for individuals with C-PTSD
Having a strong support system is crucial for individuals with complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD). Here are some resources and support systems that can be helpful in navigating the challenges of living with C-PTSD:
1. Therapists and mental health professionals: Working with a qualified therapist or mental health professional who specializes in trauma and C-PTSD is essential. They can provide guidance, support, and evidence-based treatments to help individuals manage their symptoms and work towards recovery.
2. Support groups: Joining a support group specifically for individuals with C-PTSD can be beneficial. It provides an opportunity to connect with others who have similar experiences, share coping strategies, and offer mutual support and understanding.
3. Online communities and forums: Online communities and forums dedicated to C-PTSD can provide a safe space for individuals to share their stories, seek advice, and connect with others who understand their experiences. It is important to approach online communities with caution and ensure that they are moderated by professionals.
4. Educational resources: Books, articles, and podcasts that focus on trauma and C-PTSD can provide individuals with valuable information and insights into their condition. Learning about C-PTSD can help individuals develop a deeper understanding of their experiences and empower them in their recovery journey.
Remember, seeking support is not a sign of weakness but a brave step towards healing and growth. By reaching out to these support systems and utilizing available resources, individuals with C-PTSD can enhance their recovery process and find solace in knowing they are not alone.
Overcoming challenges and setbacks in C-PTSD recovery
The recovery journey from complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) is rarely linear, and setbacks and challenges may arise along the way. It is essential to approach these obstacles with resilience and compassion for oneself. Here are some strategies for overcoming challenges and setbacks in C-PTSD recovery:
1. Practice self-compassion: Be kind to yourself and recognize that setbacks are a normal part of the recovery process. Treat yourself with the same compassion and understanding you would offer to a loved one facing a similar challenge.
2. Seek professional support: If faced with a significant setback or challenge, it may be helpful to reach out to a mental health professional for guidance and support. They can help individuals navigate through difficult emotions and develop strategies to overcome obstacles.
3. Reevaluate and adjust: Take the time to reevaluate your recovery plan and adjust as needed. Reflect on what is and isn’t working, and consider trying new approaches or techniques that may better suit your needs.
4. Practice patience: Recovery takes time, and progress may be slow at times. Be patient with yourself and acknowledge that healing is a gradual process. Celebrate small victories along the way and recognize that setbacks do not define your overall progress.
Remember, setbacks do not mean failure. They are opportunities for growth and learning. By embracing these challenges and setbacks as part of the recovery journey, individuals with C-PTSD can build resilience and continue moving forward in their healing process.
Conclusion and hope for the future
Living with complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) can be challenging, but with the right support and resources, individuals can navigate their recovery journey successfully. By understanding the nature of C-PTSD, recognizing its symptoms and triggers, and seeking appropriate treatment, individuals can take proactive steps towards healing and regaining control over their lives.
Remember, recovery is not a destination but a continuous process. It is essential to be patient, kind to oneself, and seek support when needed. With time and perseverance, individuals with C-PTSD can find hope, healing, and a brighter future.
If you or someone you know is struggling with complex post-traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD), reach out to a mental health professional for support and guidance. Remember, you are not alone, and there is hope for a better future. Call us at 833-610-1174.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Page:United States Statutes at Large Volume 90 Part 2.djvu/1134
90 STAT. 2602 Citation of section. Appropriation 17 USC* ^*t" prec 101. Severability. 17 USC note '"^^^'
PUBLIC LAW 94-553—OCT. 19, 1976 (d) This section may be cited as the "American Television and Radio Archives Act". gj,^ -^^^ There are hereby authorized to be appropriated such funds ^^ "^^y ^^ necessary to carry out the purposes of this Act. ^^^' ^^^' ^^ *^^y provision of title 17, as amended by the first section ^f this Act, is declared unconstitutional, the validity of the remainder of this title is not affected. Approved October 19, 1976.
LEGISLATIVE HISTORY: HOUSE REPORTS: No. 94-1476 (Coram, on the Judiciary) and No. 94-1733 (Coram, of Conference). SENATE REPORT No. 94-473 (Comra. on the Judiciary). CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 122 (1976): Feb. 6, 16-19, considered and passed Senate. Sept. 22, considered and passed House, amended. Sept. 30, Senate and House agreed to conference report.
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WIKI
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Fungal Infection – How To Get Rid Of It
Fungal Infection is a Skin disease caused due to fungus so- it is called a fungal infection. It is also called as mycosis or candidiasis. This organism can affect every part of the body externally as well as internally. This infection is widespread in India; every second person is affected by this disease in India. We will see how to recover from a fungal infection. Some fungal infections are not harmful but some are serious and are life-threatening conditions. In this article, we are going to see the Causes, Types, Signs and symptoms, Preventive measures, and treatment of fungal infection. As this disease is very commonly found all over the world, although it is mainly seen in Hot Climates, Humid conditions, etc. Anyone can get infected by fungal infection through skin-to-skin contact as it is highly contagious.
fungal infection
ringworm
Prevalence of Fungal Infection:
• Immuno-compromised persons with HIV/AIDS, Cancer, and who are on term steroids,
• Diabetic Patients are at high risk to get infected due to their low immune system.
• Very young and very old persons are at high risk of fungal infection.
• Causative Organisms: Candida, Aspergillus, Cryptococcus, Histoplasma, Pneumocystis,
• and Stachybotris are some causative organisms of fungi. Also, some yeasts and molds also cause
• fungal infection
Types of Fungal Infection:
A) Depending on the site of infection Fungal Infection of Mainly 3 types
1. Superficial or mucocutaneous :
1.1. Ringworm or Dermatophytosis is an infection of the skin, hair, or nail depending on the site of infection these have various names like
1.1.1. Tinea Pedis or Athlestes foot: infection of the foot.
1.1.2. Tinea Cruris or Jock Itch: Infection of Groin and inner thigh.
1.1.3. Tinea Manuum: Infection Hands.
1.1.4. Tinea Barbae: Infection of facial skin or around the beard.
1.1.5. Tinea Corporis: Infection on other parts of the body.
1.1.6. Onychomycosis: an infection of Nails of the foot or hands
1.1.7. Oral Thrush: infection of inner mucosa of buccal Cavity.
1.1.8. Vulvovaginitis: infection of mucosal membrane of vagina and vulva.
1.1.9. Tinea or Pityriasis Versocolor: commonly infects shoulders, back and upper chest.
onychomycosis
onychomycosis
2. Subcutaneous:
A fungal infection that infects below the skin or blows the mucous membrane. The infection gets into the skin due to cut wounds, scratches, or incision marks. These are also of the following types.
3. Deep fungal infection:
Deep fungal infection is the infection to inner parts of the body like Lungs, Brain, Blood, urinary tract, etc. If not treated these are life-threatening conditions. These include
3.1. Aspergillosis: usually affects the lungs
3.2. Histoplasmosis
3.3. Blastoplasmosis:
3.4. Invasive candidiasis:
3.5. Fungal Keratitis
3.6. Pneumocystis pneumonia:
3.7. Mucormycosis:
3.8. Cryptococcosis: etc
Signs and symptoms of Fungal Infection:
Superficial and subcutaneous fungal infections show skin symptoms like
1) Itching.
2) Hyper-pigmented or hypo-pigmented skin
3) Round or irregular border around the infected area.
4) Some may have watery discharge in the infected area
5) Skin discoloration
6) Some may have blisters in the infected area.
tinea vesicolor
tinea vesicolor
Deep fungal infection has different symptoms according to the site of infection.
1) Lung: Aspergillosis and mucormycosis are the commonest lung infection in which a person may have breathlessness, cough, shortness of breath, Low SPO2, etc
2) Brain: usually Cryptococcosis or invasive candidiasis causes brain fungal infection to show meningitis-like symptoms.
How to prevent Fungal Infection?
We can prevent fungal infection using the following lifestyle methods
1) Keep your skin dry and clean after bath, shower, or doing any work, especially folds of the skin.
2) Do not share towels, or baths in public places.
3) Always use dry, clean clothes.
4) Do a bath after exercise, heavy work as sweating and other moist conditions increases the risk of fungal infection.
5) Use good hygienic practices like hand washing techniques etc.
6) Use a mask in dust, heavy crowd areas, etc.
Diagnosis of Fungal Infection:
• Superficial and subcutaneous fungal infections are generally diagnosed by signs and symptoms only and on the site of infection.
• In some cases, a doctor will take skin scrap samples for culture for specific fungi.
• Blood Tests for Fungal Infection: Blood tests are usually not needed but in some cases, it is done for specific fungi identification only.
• Imaging technique:
• A doctor will do an X-ray or HRCT Chest for diagnosis of lung fungal infection.
• CT Scan of the Brain, or MRI for Brain fungal infection.
• When to seek Doctor for fungal infection:
• Any person with Itching on a specific part of the body for more than 2 to 3 days should take medical
• advise, if you have breathlessness, shortness of breath, wheezing, or headache you should reach your doctor for expert advice.
Home Care or home remedy for Fungal Infection:
1. Garlic -It has Antifungal properties. Take 3-4 cloves of Garlic and crushed it. put it daily on the infected part.
2. Coconut Oil-It contains Fatty acid. It works like a natural fungicide. Please put it on the infected part daily 3 times.
3. Turmeric also has Antifungal properties. Mix turmeric and honey and paste it on the infected area.
Treatment-
• Keep skin clean and dry.
• Apply Antifungal cream.
• Don’t apply a bandage over it.
• If an infection is deep then take the help of your doctor. he will give you Antifungal medicine.
What precautions should we take to prevent infection from spreading?
• Wash your all clothes, and towels with hot water.
• Don’t share your clothes with others.
• Wash your basin, and bathroom floor well daily.
• Avoid sharing your personal items.
• Maintain personal hygiene.
• Don’t wear tight clothing.
Conclusion-
• Fungal infection is irritating and somewhat uncomfortable.
• Earlier fungal infections used to happen in the rainy season, but now they can happen in any of the season.
There are changes in its symptoms.
FAQ’S
Q. What is a fungal infection?
A. Fungal Infection is a Skin disease caused due to fungus so-called fungal infection.
Q. What are 8 diseases caused by fungi?
A. Aspergillosis,Histoplasmosis,Blastoplasmosis,Invasive candidiasis,Fungal Keratitis, Pneumocystis pneumonia,Mucormycosis, Cryptococcosis.
Q. Can fungal infections be transmitted from person to person?
A. Fungal infection is contagious. So it will be transmitted from person to person.
Q. Does fungal infection be cured permanently?
A. It depends on the severity of the infection. The fungal infection may be cured permanently if a patient takes the proper treatment given by the doctor. But recurrence may happen.
Q. Does Fungal Infection life-threatening?
A. Generally Fungal Infection is not life-threatening it may take more time to recover. It depends on the patient’s immunity system. However, some Fungal Infections can become life-threatening if patients do not take proper treatment like Aspergillosis, Pneumocystis Pneumonia (PCP), and Mucormycosis.
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Swiss stocks - Factors to watch on Jan 11
ZURICH, Jan 11 (Reuters) - The Swiss blue-chip SMI was seen opening 0.9 percent lower at 8,184 points on Monday, according to premarket indications by bank Julius Baer . The following are some of the main factors expected to affect Swiss stocks: Chief Executive Alain Dehaze tells newspaper SonntagsZeitung he expects underlying growth this year in line with that of last year For more news see The insurer will soon name Mario Greco, Generali’s chief executive, as its next CEO, the SonntagsZeitung paper reported without identifying its sources. Greco has been named in the media before as a likely candidate to succeed Martin Senn, who quit last month For more news see The Swiss drugmaker has struck an alliance and licensing agreement with U.S.-based Surface Oncology to boost its immuno-oncology portfolio. For more news see Senior officials from the private bank reiterated to the NZZ am Sonntag paper their desire to keep the group independent after the death of Hans Vontobel, the family patriarch and biggest shareholder. “Even if one or two representatives (of the owner family) want to diversify their investments a bit, the majority will be maintained,” Chairman Herbert Scheidt said. Chief Executive Zeno Staub warned against mergers for the sake of size alone. “It will not be the case that in the end there are only 15 private banks left in Switzerland,” he said. Comments reported by the SonntagsZeitung from Swiss companies about the impact of financial upheaval in China: Kurt Haeri, manager of liftmaker Schindler and long-time head of the Swiss-China Chamber of Commerce, says turmoil on financial markets was not a reliable indicator of macroeconomic developments. “Measured by the expected profits, this is an overreaction that will calm down again.” OC Oerlikon still saw the China market growing but not as quickly as in recent years. Pumpmaker Sulzer a year ago saw the Chinese market slowing and said in August it would reduce capacity there. ABB hoped a weaker yuan currency would foster exports from China, while semiconductor group AMS still saw good business opportunities with Chinese clients. Travel group Kuoni was still profiting from above-average growth in the Chinese travel sector. Logistics group Panalpina expected to expand its presence in China, while peer Kuehne und Nagel did not foresee any impact from political and regulatory interventions. The Kellenberg family that controls the apparel maker informed its supervisory board early last year of plans to sell the clan’s 34.7 percent stake, triggering an internal spat, the SonntagsZeitung reported. The family broke off the plans in July. It quotes a company spokesman as saying: “Talks took place with a large bank (to place the stake) but it never came to a concrete sale mandate.” The chief executive of SIX Group told the Finanz und Wirtschaft paper that the Swiss bourse planned to introduce an electronic trading platform for corporate bonds that are mostly traded by telephone now. He said there was no firm start date for the plan and the exchange was in talks with big traders to try to persuade them to do business via the new platform. * UBS will double headcount in China over the next five years, adding about 600 people to existing operations in the country, Chief Executive Sergio Ermotti told Bloomberg. * Julius Baer said it had appointed Torsten Linke as new its private banking head for South East Asia and branch manager for Singapore. David Lim will become vice-chairman South East Asia, the bank said. * Actelion said it will confirm at investor presentations this week that strong operating performance are expected to help core earnings growth in 2015 to cross the 20 percent mark at constant exchange rates and excluding prior-year U.S. rebate reversals. * LifeWatch AG said it had signed an agreement with AliveCor Inc. to utilize the AliveCor Mobile ECG technology in its cardiac monitoring business. * Addex Therapeutics said that dipraglurant showed a “statistically significant” anti-dyskinetic effect, over the total treatment duration of 28 days, following additional analysis of the previously reported data from the Parkinson’s disease levodopa-induced dyskinesia Phase II proof of concept (POC) clinical trial. * The Swiss franc is likely to hold steady or ease this year, Swiss National Bank Chairman Thomas Jordan said in an interview with Swiss radio SRF on Saturday. In another interview with Swiss television, Jordan said it was a good sign that the U.S. dollar and the Swiss franc are near parity. * Swiss Tourism director Juerg Schmid thinks hotel stays can go up this year. “I expect a clear minus this winter season in the Alpine region of 1 to 4 percent depending on weather,” he told the SonntagsZeitung newspaper, adding he expected declines over the whole year as well. “Given the good urban hotel business there can be a small plus in 2016 in the winter and overall year as well.” * Nearly a year after the Swiss National Bank abandoned its ceiling for the franc against the euro, Swiss companies are still grappling with the impact, Switzerland Global Enterprise head Daniel Kueng told the NZZ am Sonntag paper. Many small and mid-sized companies have sought to maintain market share, so 74 percent report lower margins and 33 percent a sharp drop in margins. * Data on sight deposits at the Swiss National Bank due at 0800 GMT (Reporting by Zurich newsroom)
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Page:Rover Boys Down East.djvu/208
196 "Do you know the streets pretty well?"
"I ought to—I drove an express wagon for four years."
"That looks as if we were up against it," said Dick, to his brothers.
"We'll go in a drug store and consult a city directory," answered Sam. "He may think he knows all the streets, but every city has a lot of places even the oldest inhabitant doesn't know."
They rode on a few blocks further and then, seeing a large drug store, alighted from the car and entered the place. A directory was handy, on a stand, and they asked for permission to consult it.
"Nothing like Carm here," said Tom, after they had looked at the alphabetical list of streets. "We are stumped, sure enough."
"Hello! I've got it—I think!" burst out Sam, so loudly that the attention of several persons in the store was attracted to him. "Here is a Varmolet street. Maybe Mrs. Stanhope only heard the name, and thought it was Carmolet. She wrote that down, and the end became rubbed off."
"You may be right, Sam," answered Dick. "Anyway, I guess your idea is worth looking into. I wonder where Varmolet street is?"
They made several inquiries, and at last learned that the street was a narrow and exceedingly
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Talk:Yohimbine
Research
In this section, there is a "See also" for Anabolic-androgenic steroids abuse. Looking through that target page's history, it was changed to a redirect to Anabolic steroid in this edit. The old content of that article mentions common occurrence of CSA/trauma in (ab)users of anabolic steroids. The Research section here mentions it being potentially useful for PTSD.
Given that the "See also" target has been changed to a redirect, and Anabolic steroid does not mention this co-occurrence, I am removing this "See also" tag. Kimen8 (talk) 23:32, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
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WIKI
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Protecting Your Site From the Perils of Free and Open Wi-fi
Beware of free wifi
If you have ever used a free public wi-fi connection to do work your website chances are you’re exposing your site to an attack. The local coffee shop, library, etc might seem like a great place to work and it while it might be great for your productivity as a web developer/blogger/etc it is also a great place for attackers to steal the login credentials to your website (and many other sites you use) exposing both your site and yourself to a major security hole that can lead to compromised websites, spam, and in some cases even identity theft.
Here’s the problem
When you connect to a free wi-fi that doesn’t require any kind of password your data including passwords, cookies, and other information is being sent through the air without any kind of protection allowing anyone to pick it up and read it. It is in fact so easy to intercept this data that last year a researcher made a Firefox extension that would do it for you and display the victim’s accounts in your browser allowing you to take full control of their Facebook, Twitter, GMail, and other accounts. Now while the potential to steal your identity with such an attack is obvious, the potential it could cause a website owner might not be so obvious. The Firefox extension is just one example of a way an attacker can gain full access to your website for any purpose they choose. Simply put that if you log into your site using an open wi-fi connection you could be putting your site at risk. Here’s another example. Last winter a school contacted me about a hacked WordPress site they were running. This site ran their entire department including all faculty, marketing, etc so it’s importance to the department was higher than most. Well, they often connected to the site through an open wireless connection they could reach from their offices using an open wireless router set up by another department. What happened in their case is an attacker hijacked the wireless router in question and in doing so stole the login information for the department’s website administrator (and a whole lot of other systems but that’s for another post). With this information they were able to deface the site and use it to distribute malware. The attack went so deep as to actually create scheduled tasks known as CRON jobs in the underlying operating system. Needless to say some heads at that school were rolling the day the problem was found.
How can it be fixed?
Fortunately, nearly all the problems from unsafe wi-fi are preventable with just a little bit of knowledge and a couple of mouse clicks.
1.) If you can avoid open wireless connection do so.
As open wi-fi is the cause of many problems, avoiding open wi-fi connections entirely will of course solve the problem. As this isn’t an option for many though there are other ways to handle the situation.
2.) Don’t use an administrator account if you don’t need to
In most cases, when writing a post, editing a page, etc there is no reason at all to run as the website administrator. Instead, set up a second account with limited privileges to only add or edit content and make sure you have revisions or version control turned on (this is turned on by default in WordPress). Now, assuming someone does get into your site they won’t be able to change a whole lot and you’ll be able to easily reverse any damage they do. Just remember that if you do need to do any administrative work on the site you’ll probably want to go to someplace with a more secure connection or make use of one of the steps below.
3.) Make sure your site uses SSL
If you must log into your site on an open wireless connection make certain that your site is protected using SSL (Secure Socket Layers). This is the technology that encrypts the data sent between you and your web server thereby preventing anyone from intercepting the data at any point. Unfortunately, turning on SSL is probably the hardest step in this whole article. Contact your web host about getting SSL activated on your site (it is usually included with most hosting plans or can be added on for a dollar or two more) then use plugins like Better WP Security or WordPress HTTPS for WordPress or Secure Pages for Drupal to guarantee that any data you submit to your website, including usernames and passwords, is hidden from prying eyes.
4.) Use a Virtual Private Network (VPN)
While SSL is great for connecting to your own site it unfortunately can only guarantee security for pages on which it’s actually used. This means that if you share a username/password combination with another site that doesn’t use SSL it is still possible for someone to get ahold of your information. To prevent eavesdropping on any site we visit we must then employ a middleman to encrypt all the data we send over the insecure wireless network. One of the best and easiest ways to do this is through the use of a Virtual Private Network (VPN) which, for all practical purposes, creates an encrypted tunnel around your connection preventing anything you send over the wi-fi network from being intercepted by anyone else on that wi-fi network. Chances are if you need to connect to your company or school network for business you already have a VPN installed. If like me though you don’t have that luxury there is a service called SecurityKISS that can create a VPN for you. Bonus: for light work (up to 300MB/month) SecurityKISS is free. If you need more data than that their most expensive plan is only €89.90/year (that’s about $113 US at today’s rates), a small price to pay for a much stronger sense of security.
5.) Put it all together
Of course no matter where you are, SSL on your site (and any site you can possibly use it) is a good thing. Not only does it protect your account, but it can protect your users as well. In addition, not using an administrator account is really something everyone should do on their websites as well as their computers and anything else they can. The VPN solution however is really only necessary over open wi-fi as any private network will automatically eliminate the benefits it can bring. While there are still 1,000s of other ways someone can do damage to your website at least, if your careful, you can make sure that the place where you do your work won’t make it any easier for someone who would otherwise do you harm. After all, when it comes to security every little bit helps.
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Deepwater Wind proposes offshore wind power for New York's Long Island
(Reuters) - Privately held wind power developer Deepwater Wind has proposed supplying Long Island with 90 megawatts of offshore wind energy, the company said on Thursday. The 15-turbine project from Deepwater Wind, builder of the first offshore wind farm in the United States, would become the largest in the country when completed, the company said. It said that depending on permitting, construction could start as early as 2019 with the project commencing operations in 2022. The Long Island Power Authority (LIPA) is expected to officially vote on the proposal next week, the company said in an email. New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo said in a statement that at a meeting next Wednesday, the LIPA Board of Trustees would consider advancing the development of the wind farm. “Our project is not just the best site for offshore wind in the country, it’s also the right solution to meet the South Fork’s energy demands in a clean and cost effective way,” Deepwater Wind Chief Executive Officer Jeffrey Grybowski said in a statement. Reporting by Swati Verma in Bengaluru; editing by Grant McCool
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User:Nyimeh
I am Gerald Nyimeh Gweh. I have a Bachelor of Engineering in Computer Engineering. I was born in Bamessing, Ndop subdivision, Ngoketunjia Division in the North West Region of Cameroon. I participated in the Wike lives women in Buea on the 16th of August 2018.
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Sarah Robinson
Sarah Robinson may refer to:
* Sarah Scott (née Sarah Robinson, 1723–1795), writer and social reformer
* Sarah Robinson (activist) (1834–1921), temperance movement activist in the British Army
* Sarah Jane Robinson, Irish-born American serial killer
* Sarah Robinson, Countess of Ripon
* Sarah Robinson-Duff
Fictional
* Sarah Robinson, a character in 55 Days at Peking
* Sarah Robinson, a character in When the Boat Comes In
* Sarah Robinson, a character in Stranded
Other uses
* Ifield Community College or Sarah Robinson School
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Ore Sorting helps the economics of mining when ore becomes diluted by country rock because of narrow slopes or because of weak wall rock, or when it naturally contains barren material which is distinguishable from the ore, sorting and rejecting the worthless rock may be economical. This is done in a casual manner at some small mines and on a large scale at others, as was the case at Alaska-Juneau (40 per cent rejected), or covering whole districts, as at Kolar, India (10 per cent), and on the Rand (9 per cent). Sorting at a gold or silver mine may mean its existence, as at the Alaska-Juneau, or it may result in lower costs because less ore is crushed and treated to recover the same amount of gold, as at Cripple Creek, at Kolar, and on the Rand.
SORTING ORE IN THE FLOWSHEET
The place at which ore sorting will be done is mainly dependent upon the size of the mine-run ore. If the ore is not in too big chunks, the sorting belt may be placed below the grizzly or trommel to receive the oversize after it has been sprayed with water. The grizzly undersize is transported direct to the storage bin. If mine-run ore is in too large pieces, it should be broken to 4- to 7-in. size, sprayed, and then fed to the sorting belt. The wash water containing the fine material sometimes carries enough gold to be worth saving; therefore provision should be made for sampling and assaying it also for its proper disposal.
Ore Sorting on the Rand
The sorting of waste (low-grade) rock has been accepted practice for many years on the Witwatersrand. Low labor cost and the peculiar structure of the “banket” ore are both contributing factors. In some plants tube-mill pebbles as well as reject rock are removed from the belts and delivered to separate bins, while other plants merely pass the rock after sorting to grizzlies or trommel screens, where 6-in. oversize is separated out as grinding media and the undersize passes to the secondary crushers.
In his presidential address before the Chemical, Metallurgical and Mining Society of South Africa, A. Clemes states:
There has been little change in the last 10 to 15 years in the established method of removing waste rock from slow-moving conveyor belts feeding the primary (and possibly secondary) fine crushers. On most plants ore passing through jaw breakers set at, say, 5 in. and retained on grizzlies (or screens) set at between 2 and 3½ in. is subjected to waste sorting. Where intensive sorting is deemed necessary (say 15 per cent of the ore delivered), it is usual to arrange for two sets of sorting belts, one carrying minus 5 in. plus 3 in. material and the other minus 3 in. plus 2 in. The admixture of these sizes is, obviously, detrimental to intensive sorting, but where sorting of waste rock is not important, the capital cost of installing additional screening and belt conveyor equipment may be uncalled for.
“Time studies” of the efficiencies of native sorters have been carried out on most mines with some measure of individual improvement, but efforts in this direction are largely nullified by the fact that often only poor quality or transient labor is allocated to this work, whilst the sortability of ore varies widely. In general, it may be accepted that under normal conditions natives sorting coarse waste can average about 10 tons per 8-hr. shift, falling to well below 5 tons per shift under conditions of intensive sorting of the smaller sizes.
Purely from the angle presented to the metallurgist, benefication of the ore to the mill still seems profitable. Assuming a total cost of metallurgical treatment of 2s 9d per ton with a residue value 1s 9d (0.20 dwt.), it appears worth while to discard waste rock valued at 3s (0.35 dwt.) at a cost for sorting and dumping of about 1s 2d per ton; equivalent to a gain of 4d per ton.
Such a simple arithmetical justification of waste sorting is not, however, completely acceptable today. Native labor is in short supply, and a number of reduction plants are working below capacity; possibly, more mines could now profitably take in waste rock yielding, say, 80 per cent extraction of 0.35 dwt. or 2s 4d per ton. Thus, under present and forecast conditions of shortage of man power, one is inclined to wonder if the continuance of waste sorting on some producing mines can be justified, also if the capital cost of providing for waste sorting—conveyor, belts, waste bins, waste-disposal equipment, etc.—should be incurred in new plants.
Ore Sorting at Randfontein
The ore is first screened on seven 8- by 3- ft. Tyrock double-deck screens, with 3-in. round hole openings on the top deck and 1½-in. square mesh screen on the bottom deck. The undersize of these screens goes directly to the mill bins, and the oversize to washing and sorting.
The +3-in. oversize of the top deck, which ranges in size up to 14 in., is washed and sorted on five 36-in. wide by 118-ft. long belts, from which waste and primary tube-mill pebbles are sorted. The oversize of the lower deck passes to two similar belts from which waste and secondary tube- mill pebbles are sorted after washing.
The washing is done by sprays on the lower end of the sorting belts, using 525 gal. per min., and drainage from the belts or washing fines are dewatered in two simplex Dorr classifiers with rake product going to the mill bins and overflow 84 per cent minus 200 thickened in two intermittent settling tanks, from which the thickened pulp is pumped to the secondary grinding circuit classifiers.
The sorting belts run at 25 ft. per min., and on an average 40 native boys pick about 60 tons per hour of waste and tube-mill pebbles. In 1946 the waste amounted to 2.05 per cent of the crude ore and had an average value of 0.152 dwt. per ton. The cost was 13.06d (21.8 cents) per ton of waste.
Ore Sorting at McKenzie Red Lake, Canada.
The crushing plant will handle the mill tonnage (225 tons per day) in 8 hr. The ore from the 200-ton mine ore bin is fed by a swing-hammer feed regulator to a 30-in. link-belt feeder delivering to a 2-in. bar grizzly at an angle of 35 deg. The fines drop to an 18-in. conveyor belt, and the oversize to a 36-in. sorting belt, where it is water washed by sprays prior to sorting, which is done under fluorescent light. The average production per day in 1945 was 209 tons, of which 35 tons was sorted to waste. The total cost per ton of ore mined and milled was $7,656.
THE ECONOMICS OF Ore SORTING & Pre-Concentration
The question as to whether in any given instance sorting is justified is strictly a matter of economics. The cost of installation and operation of a sorting plant and the inevitable loss of some gold value, however small, in the rock discarded must be balanced against the saving in milling cost resulting from the elimination of low-grade rock. In this connection, R. D. Lord in “Milling at Preston East Dome,” C.M.J., August, 1941, gives the following formula:
Tons milled = A
Tons sorted out = B
Tons mined = A + B
Cost of mining per ton mined — C dollars
Cost of milling per ton milled = D dollars
Cost of sorting per ton sorted — E dollars
Value of waste as backfill = F dollars
Grade mined = m
Grade sorted = p
Grade milled = m(A + B) – pB/A
Recovery from mined ore = x (as a decimal fraction)
Recovery possible from sorted low grade = y (as a decimal fraction)
Recovery from milled ore² = xm(A + B) – ypB/m(A + B) – pB
To obtain the above formula we have that the gold recoverable from the total ore hoisted is mx(A + B) and that the gold recoverable from the material sorted out is ypB.
Then for the ore reaching the mill the gold recoverable is xm(A + B) — ypB out of the total gold reaching the mill which is m(A + B) — pB. This makes the fraction recovered expressible as
mx(A + B) – ypB/m(A + B) – pB
Without sorting:
Operating cost = A(C + D)
Recovery = xmA dollars
Cost in dollars per dollar in gold recovered = A(C + D)/xmA = C + D/xm
With sorting:
Operating cost of sorting = BE in dollars
Cost of picking per ton mined = BE/A + B
Cost of milling = AD
Total cost = C(A + D) + BE + AD + (ypB – BD)
Recovery = xm(A + B) – ypB/m(A + B) – pB x m(A + B) – pB/A x A = xm(A + B) – ypB
Cost in dollars per dollar gold recovered
= C(A + B) + BE + AD + (ypB – BD)/xm(A + B) – ypB
Then the maximum value of material that can be discarded without increasing the cost per ounce of production occurs when
C + D/xm = CA + CB + BE + AD – (ypB – BD)/xm(A + B) – ypB
This equation reduces to
p = xm(2D – E)/y(C + D + xm) X xn 2D – (E – F)/y(C + D + xm)
when introducing F, the value of the waste as backfill.
Example:
Example
ORE SORTING BY SINK-FLOAT for Pre-Concentration
As yet not applied to the sorting of gold ores, this method is extensively used for the elimination of low-grade material in the treatment of coal and various “metallic” and “nonmetallic” ores. Based simply upon the principle of “floating” the waste in a heavy media suspension having a density intermediate between that of the desired “sink” and rejected “float,” the method presupposes that an appreciable difference exists (at least 0.2) between the specific gravity of the ore constituents. Ordinarily as applied today, the method will handle minus 2-in. plus 3/16-in. feed (occasionally as fine as 10 mesh), but improved methods are under development which may soon make it economically possible to handle material as fine as 100 mesh.Ore Sorting Plant
The principal reason why gold ores have not thus far been handled by this method lies no doubt in the fact that it is rare to find coarsely mineralized gold ores in which the values are highly concentrated in a heavy fraction after crushing to the size range above indicated.
Cyanidation and concentration of gold and silver ores
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Trump warming to EU trade deal with Britain behind in queue: Times
LONDON (Reuters) - The United States could strike a free-trade agreement with the European Union after President Donald Trump warmed to a deal with the bloc, the Times reported on Saturday, quoting sources from both sides of the discussion. Post-Brexit Britain would be pushed behind Europe in the race to secure a U.S. deal after Germany’s Angela Merkel persuaded Trump that talks on a deal would be simpler than he thought, the newspaper said. Britain will not be free to agree new trade deals until it has left the EU in 2019. A source close to the White House was quoted as saying that there had been a “realisation” in the Trump administration that a trade deal with the EU - allowing the tariff-free exchange of goods and services - was more important to U.S. interests than a post-Brexit deal with Britain. “Ten times Trump asked her (Merkel) if he could negotiate a trade deal with Germany,” the newspaper quoted a senior German politician as saying. “Every time she replied, ‘You can’t do a trade deal with Germany, only the EU’,” the politician said. “On the eleventh refusal, Trump finally got the message, ‘Oh, we’ll do a deal with Europe then.’” Trump, who has repeatedly criticised the EU, had welcomed Britain’s 2016 vote to leave the bloc and said he would work hard to get a quick bilateral trade deal done. But German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said on Friday he was optimistic a U.S.-EU trade deal could be reached soon after he met his U.S. counterpart in Washington. He said he had seen a relaxation in the dispute with the U.S. over trade and believed a “non-confrontational solution” would be reached when financial leaders of the world’s 20 top economies meet in Hamburg in July under Germany’s presidency. Any quick deal between the U.S. and Europe could come as a blow to British Prime Minister Theresa May who had hoped to win a promise of deeper trade ties when she became the first foreign leader to meet Trump in office in January. Trade became a major issue during the Brexit campaign when the then-president Barack Obama said Britain would go to “the back of the queue” for a deal if it voted to leave. The comment was denounced as meddling by those campaigning to leave the bloc, who argued that Britain would be free to negotiate quick trade deals with major economies around the world once it had left the bloc. Reporting by Kate Holton; Editing by Louise Ireland
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Date of Award
Spring 1-1-2013
Document Type
Dissertation
Degree Name
Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)
Department
Computer Science
First Advisor
Dirk Grunwald
Second Advisor
Douglas Sicker
Third Advisor
Timothy X Brown
Fourth Advisor
Shivakant Mishra
Fifth Advisor
Kenneth R. Baker
Abstract
Layering in wireless networks provide clear abstractions to how various resources are managed for a particular communication link. However, the unpredictability of the wireless channel presents great challenge to these clear abstractions. Often, optimizations in these layers are not transparent to others. This creates a necessity to violate the modular approach and share crosslayer information to modify each layer's functionalities, which eventually improves the overall performance of the network. In this thesis, novel MAC-PHY crosslayer protocols have been designed, implemented and evaluated. These protocols provide unprecedented gain in various aspects of a wireless network, by facilitating simultaneous multiuser communication. By harnessing the untapped potential of the various signal processing subsystems in the physical layer, these protocols are able to increase network throughput, make certain group communications faster and enable covert communication. Using reconfigurable hardware to expose physical layer information, improvement is achieved in higher layers. Furthermore, it is also important to modify the physical layer based on the feedback from higher layers. The two-way handshaking changes the conventional modular approach and allows implementation of simultaneous communication in wireless domain. To make the crosslayer techniques practical, this thesis presents clear implementation steps to embed these concepts as an extension to common wireless network protocols and evaluate those using practical experiments and radio measurements. Through these techniques we are able to show practical benefits from a mutable radio and a crosslayer approach to protocol design for next generation, high bandwidth wireless networks.
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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Belinda Song
The result was delete. Doczilla @SUPERHEROLOGIST 22:27, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Belinda Song
* – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)
Fails WP:GNG, WP:MUSICBIO, WP:AUTHOR and pretty much everything the subject has tried her hand at. I've spent some considerable time looking into this person and her various careers, and drawn a complete blank. I've searched under her three aliases Belinda Song, Belinda Elkaim and Samey Fong – her Chinese name is 方心美, which I believe translates to Xin Mei Fang, and I've tried searching these names as well, but all five names produce nothing more than YouTube videos and streaming websites. She certainly was signed to the Asian division of Polygram Records (now part of Universal Music) as a teenager back in the 1980s, but I can't find any evidence that she was particularly successful – obviously sources from the time are likely to only exist as print copies of the Hong Kong newspapers, so I can't check that part of her career. Since she relaunched her music career in the 2010s all her releases have been independent, and the videos mostly premiered through her Instagram TV channel – the 2021 and 2022 releases in the article state "Universal Music Group", but that's not entirely accurate... she releases them via Spinnup, a company set up by Universal Music to distribute music uploaded by independent artists, and her low-budget music videos certainly don't appear to have been financed by a global music conglomerate. Similarly, her four novels have all been self-published, and the film was written and directed by Ms. Song herself, and she played the lead role in it. Kudos to Ms. Song for her entrepreneurial efforts, but I don't see anything that makes her notable for a Wikipedia article. Richard3120 (talk) 00:16, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Delete We need significant coverage of someone created by others to justify an article on someone, and that is lacking here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:01, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
* Delete per the nominator's detailed and well-researched rationale and per the lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. I searched for sources using the terms "Belinda Song", "Belinda Elkaim", and "Samey Fong", and for her Chinese name "方心美" and could not find coverage in any reliable sources about her. She does not meet Notability. Cunard (talk) 10:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
* Nice breakdown by nom. Delete per that rationale. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
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Stem Cell Treatment
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Talk:Sovereign citizen movement/Archive 1
Needs work
I've created a stub article, based on information in the 3 references. A good article would be a lot longer. It would also be better to have a wider range of sources. I seem to remember an article in TIME magazine, but I haven't been able to find it. Cheers, CWC (talk) 10:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
April 2007
User recently deleted a large portion of the article. I've reverted those edits. (I left a message on user talk:<IP_ADDRESS>, but that seems to be a dynamic IP, so he/she may not see them.) Anyone who has problems with the article can discuss them by editing this page. (Reading the talk page guidelines first would be helpful.) Cheers, CWC 01:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
General cleanup
This material makes little if any sense to the extent it touches on legal topics. I've tried to make some edits to begin a clean up, and and to tone down the POV - but without changing the meaning. Yours, Famspear 16:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've made some more edits to tone down the POV. This article as written prior to my edits sounded like a sales pitch for someone pushing conspiracy theories (and it still does to some extent). Neutral Point of View requires that Wikipedia present this kind of material as a description of some people's beliefs. Wikipedia cannot take a position that the beliefs are correct or valid. Yours, Famspear 16:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I've made some additional changes, but much of the article as presently configured still reads like a joke. Yours, Famspear 16:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
* Dear readers: Regarding this paragraph:
* The main premise is that the United States is a "Trust". The Congressman and Senators Trustees, and the common people are the Beneficiaries of that Trust. Under this theory, the United States went bankrupt in 1933 and provided a remedy under something called "Limited Liability" in the form of Social Security Insurance. HJR-192 (House Joint Resolution 192) of June 5th 1933, states in part "that no contract can be put forth which calls for payment in substance", and "all debts must be discharged like for like, dollar for dollar." [bolding added on last sentence by Famspear]
* I deleted the last sentence. I haven't checked the official text of HJR-192 in the United States Statutes at Large; the version of the text in Wikisource, however, includes no such quotations. (Of course it's possible that the Wikisource version is wrong.)
* Aside from the fact that these appear to be false quotations, the sentence doesn't make much sense anyway (although the same can be said about much of the theories described in the article). Yours, Famspear 22:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I imagine the only way to "make sense" of this would be to cut it substantially. Rather than the long, convoluted attempt at explaining an incomprehensible string of legal theories, just boil it down into two or three paragraphs giving an overview of the nature of their claims. Obviously it's not going to "make sense" as a logical argument, but there's no reason we can't craft an accurate characterization of the nature of their beliefs. Unfortunately, what we have now is so nonsensical I wouldn't even know where to start, so good luck.<IP_ADDRESS> 13:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Critique
I find the so-called critique weak. When someone critiques or comments on something, they should point to specific items in the article or theory and then write something like "when the 'sovereign citizen movement' claims that xyz, they are in error because such and such refutes that point specifically. For example, in Jan., 19xx, John Doe of anytown, US presented this idea but it was shown to be false because of a, b, & c."
The "Critique" in this article is nothing more than a thinly-veiled ad hominen attack. The "Southern Poverty Law Center" as a rule holds the view that "anyone who challenges 'government authority' is a nutcase and is probably violent"
July 22, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Creolefood (talk • contribs)
* So what? No court has ever upheld the wacky, baseless legal theories these lunatics spout. The only real critique one can make is that these people are completely wrong and are just making this stuff up. --Eastlaw 21:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
September 7, 2007 Anti-Sheeple League
Folks who espouse the "sovereign movement" as wacky "conspiracy theorists" are obviously blissfully ignorant (a CONSCIOUS CHOICE, not a condition) of the commercial + corporate = fascist mechanism known today as the "Federal Government". If the courts themselves and executive branches of "our" government are openly TRADING on the stock market (don't take my word for it, look it up on the Dunn & Bradstreet website),what in the blue blazes makes you think that all of their "court case decisions" are LAWFUL? It's high time for the mindless supporters of the "perception is reality" set to wake up, due their due diligence & study up on TRUE AMERICAN history & POSITIVE LAW, not case law. Cognitive Dissonance is the financially elite's greatest ally, & it's working brilliantly on folks like yourself, Eastlaw. Let me give you a reading assignment - check out the IRS code section that deals with 501 (c) 3 "tax exempt" organizations such as Wikipedia & the Anti-Defamation League - do you REALLY think that you can be "unbiased" when they fall under the DIRECT CONTROL of the TAX COLLECTION arm (IRS) of the PRIVATELY OWNED FEDERAL RESERVE BANK? Oops, you probably were blissfully ignorant of that TRUTH also, because you obviously prefer blind OPINION to TRUTH. IT IS OUT THERE - do YOU have the courage to face it head-on? I hope so for this country's sake. This whole movement is about returning to a UN-CORRUPT REPUBLICAN form of government, NOT anarchy nor a "DEMOCRACY". Another reading assignment & a gentleman's bet- show me ANYWHERE in the Declaration of Independence (our FOUNDATIONAL document by the way) or the Constitution that makes a SPECIFIC reference to this country as a "Democracy". THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC". That in itself is a contradiction in terms. "Republican" means "BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE". The Definition for "Democracy" is "MOB RULE". Ben Franklin said, "Democracy is two wolves & a sheep voting on what to have for dinner". As for the ignorantly ambiguous tripe that the ADL likes to vomit on the "common herd" (not my term - our own "people in government's") is that ANYONE who disagrees with their views is an obvious "anti-semitic" & "white supremacist". How banal! The only "defamation" happening here is THEIR OWN racist railing propaganda. Perhaps some remedial history reading is in order for the likes of you who enjoy seeing your own baseless writing rather than attack the issue in a truthful, forthright manner. Try reading "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin or watch America: Freedom to Fascism from Aaron Russo. Don't just spout OPINION - BACK IT UP WITH TRUTH!By the way, Wikipedia - the LEGAL term for "straw man" is defined in Black's 4th LAW Dictionary as "Stramineus Homo" - "A man of straw, one of no substance, put forward as bail or surety". Oh darn-did I give you another "wacky theory"? Look up "Public Statute" then "Private Statute". Look up "Status" then "Estate". Look up "sovereign" then "Sui Juris". Webster's Dictionary is NOT used in a "court of law", so get a Black's or Ballentine's. Can YOU HANDLE the TRUTH? Think you're up to it? Time to either "break from the herd" or put your head back down, be quiet & keep on grazing. <IP_ADDRESS> 04:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
* Dear user at IP<IP_ADDRESS>: Thank you for sharing your feelings with us, but this is not a weblog. The purpose of this page is to discuss ways to improve the article. Stay on topic. Yours, Famspear 02:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* Don't be so hard on the loon. He's the best argument against his position we have. --chbarts (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Clean up
I cleaned up the article by mostly cutting the rambling explanation of how to conduct your redemption and instead cited a USDOJ news release, that explains the theory these people work under. It is kind of cockamamie, but the idea I've gotten from reading some other websites is that people who believe in redemption theory, literally believe that government debt is directly connected to each individual citizen, and that as the government pays off that debt, an individual is entitled to the proceeds. Thats where the strawman (which is evidently your account where this money is supposed to be deposited) comes from. SiberioS (talk) 20:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Pretty weird stuff. I made some general copyedits. It's hard to make sense of out this stuff. Famspear (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: Regarding the recent edits by IP<IP_ADDRESS> that were reverted by other editor(s), I have posted the following on that editor's talk page:
* I cannot speak for the editor(s) who removed your recent contributions in this article, but I suspect that one reason for the reversions might have been that the language was a bit too non-neutral. I myself agree with the thrust of your edits; it's just that in Wikipedia, Wikipedia itself cannot take these positions.
* For example, I think we can agree that the sovereign citizen ideas are indeed "bizarre." Wikipedia, itself however, cannot take that position. If we can locate a previously published third party source that takes that position, we can cite to that source -- making clear that the "bizarreness" is the source's opinion, and not Wikipedia's opinion.
* On the Tennessee court case as a primary source, I think that there might be a way to work that back into the article along with some secondary sources (if we can locate some) in the context of an expansion of the article.
* I don't know a lot about the sovereign citizen movement per se, so please hang in there. This may take some time.
To reiterate, I think the Tennessee court case might be a proper sourcing, along with some secondary sourcing like material from the Anti-Defamation League, here:. The material just needs to be presented in a neutral tone.
Thoughts or ideas, anyone? Famspear (talk) 03:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Bias of a particular source compared to neutral point of view of the article
A new user deleted a quotation from the Anti-Defamation League, objecting to the verbiage because the verbiage is biased. I reinstated the verbiage.
"Bias" generally does relate to the Wikipedia policy on Neutral Point of View -- but not in the way that the new user may have thought. Bias of a particular source is not the same as neutral point of view (or lack of same) of the article as a whole. Although it may seem odd to a newcomer at first, there is no "neutral point of view" requirement in Wikipedia that sources used in Wikipedia be unbiased. If you think about it after a while, you may realize why this is so.
Here is the rule:
* As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. The neutral point of view policy is often misunderstood. The acronym NPOV does not mean "no points of view". The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV". The neutral point of view is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it neither endorses nor discourages viewpoints. Debates within topics are clearly described, represented and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but must studiously refrain from asserting which is better.
-- from WP:NPOV (bolding added).
You cannot present opposing viewpoints in an article without those viewpoints being biased. By definition, the viewpoints must be biased in order for those viewpoints to be opposed to each other. "Neutral point of view" means the neutrality of the article as a whole -- not the absence of points of view (biased or unbiased) within the article.
It is not Wikipedia itself that is saying the words in the quotation. It is the source that is making the statement. And it is OK to show that quotation (or an accurate paraphrase of that statement) in the Wikipedia article, even if the statement is biased and even if the source making that statement is biased.
What would be impermissible, however, would be for Wikipedia to then say "Oh, by the way, this source is correct" or "that source is wrong".
Neutral point of view is a complicated concept in Wikipedia, and we would agree that there are certainly some ways that an article might fail the NPOV standard, even without the article expressly saying "this source is right" or "that source is wrong." Deleting an accurate, in-context quotation from a reliable, previously published third party source merely because that quotation is biased, however, is generally not appropriate -- for the simple reason that the mere use of a "biased quotation" does not, in and of itself, violate the NPOV rule. Famspear (talk) 19:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
legal filing example
Why is it in all caps-lock, randomly underlined, and written like complete gibberish? Surely nobody actually believes that arbitrarily putting lines under words will cause nonsense to suddenly make sense. ʄ! •¿talk? 17:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
* Dear editor Fennessy: I've studied the writings of delusional people for years, and I can attest to the fact that there are indeed a few people who, apparently, actually believe this kind of stuff. Much of this kind of nonsense is found the U.S. tax protester scams, which I have been studying for some years. Famspear (talk) 18:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
still needs work
I realize that there are people who actually believe this nonsense. We cannot expect their writing to be coherent. However, I think that we can expect the rest of the article to be better written than it is. For example:
"Courts have consistently in the past that the movement has legal merit, but not recently."
Huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
* Vandalism. Fixed. WillOakland (talk) 03:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Notes from SLAUTCAANS on commonlaw sub-reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/CommonLaw/comments/76yhn/wiki_sovereign_citizen_movement_courts_have/c05uelj
"A 'Citizen' cannot be sovereign. And courts will always rule so, becuase this is absolutely correct...
A 'Citizen', like a 'person', is a legal-fiction or legal-entity created for acting under a created jurisdiction - a created set of rules. Such as the jurisdicion of the State or of the United States. This is why we can be both a 'Citizen' OF the State, and a 'Citizen' OF the United States. - These legal-fictions are creations of each.
See Welcome Page.
- You're either a Sovereign OR a 'Citizen'.
A 'Citizen' is a subject of something... It has obligation.
This is the mistake that most people make, they think that they want to remain a Citizen and can be sovereign.
*
A sovereign by defition has no obligations and is free, unless he or she chooses to have those obligations - such as by contract. A human being - man or woman - can be sovereign. *
A 'Citizen' has obligations to its creator, just as a 'person'.
You can put a Claim of Right on your 'person', so that only you the human being can give your 'person' obligations, but as for the 'Citizen' - this is created by the State and will always have obligations to it.
'Denying corporate existence' means breaking the link with one of the created 'Citizens'. For instance, you - the human being - state that you no longer associate with the created entity - the 'Citizen' of the United States (as defined in 1868).
This is done with a "Claim of Right" to put you in charge of your 'person' and a "Notice of Understanding and Intent".
A "Claim of Right" is literally that. You claim and reserve the right to hold title to your own name - the Strawman or Trade Name as written in ALL-CAPITALS (your 'Capitis Diminutio Maxima' name) - that was created for you on your behalf at birth.
Furthermore, to add complications for you, this is dependent on Jurisdiction which acts on a given name. Just as you can simultaneously be 1. A 'Citizen' of the United States, and 2. A 'Citizen' of the State, you can also be 3. A free and sovereign human being, protected by the Common Law and free to make contract (equity).
Which one of these you are at any instance depends on the Jurisdiction you fall under. If you are doing business with a private man by Contract then you are under 3. (though the courts will try to pull you under the UCC / U.S. Code, and you will voluntarily contract with the court by stating your name and arguing in their court), if you are dealing with the State, you are under 2., and dealing with agents of the US FEDERAL GOV (incl FBI, Homeland Security, District Judges etc.) then you are under 1.
Of course, this is a generalization, and doesn't go into the details of contractual obligations." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Osirisx11 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Unsourced commentary
The following unsourced commentary has been moved from the article to here:
* The concept of the Sovereign Citizen originates with the Magna Carta, considered the most important document to modern democratic forms of government, issued by King John of England in 1215 and confirmed by Edward 1 in 1297. In the Magna Carta the sovereign monarchs granted that men were endowed with rights above monarchy, rights granted universally by God directly to men, and that men may not rightfully be denied life and property by capricious act of monarchy but must be found guilty by law and fair process.
* The concept of sovereign citizenship is introduced in the second paragraph of the American Declaration of Independence with the phrasing “…that they (men) are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…” meaning that certain rights may not rightfully be denied or eroded by government, law or rulers and they are rights that naturally exist through all time in spite of all challenge or denial. That principle is asserted in the first three words of the United States Constitution “We the People (…establish this Constitution)” clearly authorizing the citizen as sovereign and government as subordinate. Some such unalienable rights of sovereign citizenship are enumerated and decreed in the Fifth Amendment of the United States Constitution which strictly limits and regulates the authority of government in the deprivation of life and property from citizens. Without citizen sovereignty democratic government is false and corrupt. To refer to sovereign citizenship as “extremist” is to insult the Constitution, the Magna Carta and democratic government.
* "Sovereign Citizen" does not belong in "Category: Conspiracy Theories". Please remove the false, misleading and irresponsible assertions above ("Courts have consistently ruled that the concept of a sovereign citizen has no legal merit..").
This is unsourced commentary, and really belongs here on the talk page.
The concept of a "sovereign citizen" does not originate with the Magna Carta. The concept is not introduced in the Declaration of Independence. The term "sovereign" is being used in the article to describe the way adherents of the Sovereign Citizen Movement use the term -- which is quite different from the way the term "sovereign" in used in the U.S. legal system. More on this later.... Yours, Famspear (talk) 12:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Legal sources
Regarding a recent edit:
To the best of my knowledge, there is no Wikipedia rule that "legal references must be hard copy, not just N-NPOV position papers on the web". First, there is no requirement that legal sources be "hard copy." A legal source that is published only on the internet is not disqualified on that ground.
Second, there is no requirement that sources of any kind be "neutral." In Wikipedia, as odd as it may sound at first, the sources themselves may be biased or non-neutral -- without violating the policy on Neutral Point of View (NPOV). The NPOV policy deals with how Wikipedia presents the information in the article, not with whether the source itself is "neutral."
Bias or non-neutrality in a source could possibly affect some other Wikipedia rule -- such as Verifiability. In other words, if the source is so biased that the information is unreliable, then there might be a problem.
To the best of my knowledge Bernard Sussman and the Anti-Defamation League would be considered a reliable source. Famspear (talk) 05:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Excerpt from the rules on Neutral Point of View:
* Neutrality requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view) — what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence.
--(italics added). Famspear (talk) 05:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Sussman's book has been cited, for example, here. Even if Sussman's book were not reliable, the court rulings collected in it would be. WillOakland (talk) 00:39, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Merger?
The page Sovereign Citizens was redirected here, then the redirect was undone, so it seems we need to discuss whether or not it really is a separate concept from this movement. Personally, I'm not sure I see evidence that it is. Thoughts anyone? Beeblebrox (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I can only share personal experience on the issue, which I understand doesn't hold much weight online, but here goes: I think the movements are very similar, but not in contact with one another because I've mentioned the sovereign movement to a group before, and they claimed to not know what I was talking about. So I would infer that they're the redemption movement. But, not entirely sure on that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Don't Agree With Merger
There is a difference between the concept of sovereign citizenship and the Sovereign Citizen movement, particularly here in the U.S., as a worthwhile subject. Unless there was some other reason behind the original merger. Njsamizdat (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
This matter is now at WP:AFD. See Articles for deletion/Sovereign Citizens. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Slander
There is nothing inherently racist about this ideology. And citing fear mongers like the ADL and SPLC is a violation of wikipedia's rules. These groups are openly anti-sovereign citizen and make no secret of their bias against the ideology. Neither of those is a valid source.
The whole end of the article needs to be edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
No, the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) and SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) would be considered reliable third party sources for purposes of Wikipedia. Clue: In Wikipedia, there is no requirement that the source itself be "unbiased" or that a source "not make a secret of its bias." Please review Wikipedia rules on Neutral Point of View (NPOV). Even if these groups are "openly anti-sovereign citizen", that would not in and of itself be a valid objection for using the source in a Wikipedia article. Famspear (talk) 03:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The problem is not in any sources' supposed 'open bias' but lies more in a general lack of clarification, failure to make elementary etymological distinctions and an implicitly preemptive defamation of people currently within United States jurisdiction seeking to remember creditable international communion without federal agency by repeatedly using misnomer as alias. It is obvious to anyone astute but perhaps overlooked that the most effective method for anyone to protect themselves from this so-categorized conspiracy theory (a misnomer of hypothesis to note in general and in this case one of legal hypothesis) is if they were made elucidated as to how "Sovereign Citizen" is an oxymoron and thus make one able to efficiently render any person titling themselves as such or claiming to be of the movement incompetent on the spot. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 11:19, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
* What problem are you speaking of, <IP_ADDRESS>? We need to know in order to understand the rest of your post. Thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
As an attorney, the "legal" arguments presented in the article and this talk page make no sense. As an English major, most of the above statements by <IP_ADDRESS> are unintelligible due to misusing or misunderstanding five-dollar words. It would be nice if someone could clarify the "legal" underpinnings of the SC movement, as in starting at the basic foundation for their beliefs and then slowly building on them until they reach the current status of affairs. Reallypablo (talk) 23:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
* The legal underpinnings of the movement are a mixture of radical pseudo-libertarianism, wishful thinking and misusing or misunderstanding five-dollar words and legal precedents. If you follow the specific legal cites usually proferred by them, you'll be led down a mystical maze in which the etymological fallacy runs rampant, and "common sense" trumps common (and statute) law, and some self-taught rural judge's 19th-century ruling, slightly twisted, is held to trump decades of subsequent precedent. -- Orange Mike | Talk 01:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
* Yes, and the "common sense" that followers of this nonsense espouse has little or no meaningful correspondence with the common sense of most people. I've been studying tax protesters in the United States for about 13 years, and the "sovereign citizen" nonsense came to my attention as part of that study. The so-called "sovereign citizens" share some of the characteristics of the tax protesters. Both groups tend to engage in an idiosyncratic and (from a legal analysis standpoint) totally erroneous process of amalgamating words taken out of context, sometimes from legitimate sources -- such as the texts of court opinions -- and then claiming that the materials somehow stand for some preposterous legal or political proposition that the author of the source material in no way espouses. I find these people fascinating in part for the same reason I find tax protesters fascinating: the psychology of these people. These are almost without exception very angry, bitter, paranoid types who "see" evil plots everywhere. Famspear (talk) 03:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Unsigned from 27 January 2010 suggests that the ADL and SPLC are not legitimate sources due to expectations in bias, however the history of the Sovereign citizen ideologies has been one of the subjects that organized skeptics have examined and "debunked," if you will, for decades, and science-based skeptic groups such as the Bay Area Skeptics (defunct) and The Skeptic Tank (Los Angeles, California) were evaluating and debunking the race-based claims and tax-predicated claims of the Christian Identity groups which originated the Sovereign citizen movement long before the ADL and SPLC became aware of (and thus became involved in) the exposure/debunking of the movement.
So the ADL and SPLC are not unique. So far as perceived bias is concerned, the critical examination and the scientific/legal debunking of any claim (be it claims of the paranormal, claims of denial of Federal citizenship, or any claim at all) can certainly contain bias, however the matter of legitimacy, testability, and falsifiability trumps bias. An organization or an individual may indeed harbor significant bias in his or her proclamations however such bias is irrelevant in the fact of the survival of efforts at testing claims.
In the case of Sovereign citizens ideologies and the ADL, SPLC, and organized skeptics groups which have examined and debunked the claims stemming from such ideologies for decades, perceived bias is not relevant in the face of irrefutable evidence, specifically in the face of the movement's undisputed origins (Christian Identity.) The movement's origins are solidly predicated in white supremacist racism. Over time additional motivations and ideologies were added to the movement and, indeed, new concepts are added while older ideals decline in favor among adherents, however the core ideology for the formation of the movement was racism.
Slander requires that something written be untrue, ergo the article contains no slander. Damotclese (talk) 02:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
* Oh, I would add that there is some measure of irony in the fact that many of the people who believe themselves to be Sovereign within the United States are Negros (reference here) which further shows that the movement itself has broadened and expanded from its [Christian Identity] origins. Those uncomfortable with the direction that the movement has taken, and those uncomfortable with the movement's factual origins would be best adopting a new title banner under which their unusual ideologies might be carried. Damotclese (talk) 02:58, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Claim vs Declare
You don't apply or make a claim for being sovereign. You DECLARE sovereignty. Please reword the first paragraph if you can grasp this. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This article states "In March of 2010 a group calling itself the Guardians of the Free Republics issued letters to at least 30 US state governors threatening violence if they did not leave office within 3 days" - attributed to the Huufuington Post. Yet the AP story cited by Huffington states "Investigators do not see threats of violence in the group's messageItalic text, but fear the broad call for removing top state officials could lead others to act out violently." [Emphasis added.] Generously, this could be the fallacy of extension, but in any case, it is a clear misstatement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 15:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Racism Smear
I am removing this section as it appears to simply be an unverifiable claim made in an "intelligence report" authored by people known to be slap-happy with accusations of racism, extrapolated to denigrate anyone who associates themselves with this group of people. Even if a couple people in the 70s used this term, that needs to be clearly and specifically stated instead of attempting to discredit the entire movement with allegations of racism.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:58, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Here is the article the reference for the racism smear points to: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2008/winter/house-of-ill-repute No evidence of calling black people "14th Amendment citizens", nor of those people being racist, apart from the allegation of a police officer. It is ridiculous that this was ever included in the article.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Problems with title
This title could create confusion between the political/philosophical concept of individual sovereignty, which a lot of libertarians believe in, and the totally separate concept of the sovereignty myth. Therefore, I encourage a merger. Tisane (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Jared Loughner
It's possible that Loughner is a part of this movement.
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJdAfChCRGE
* http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Sovereign Citizen - An Oxymoron
-The ADL "Sovereign Citizens" publication does not cite ANY sources, and does not even divulge who it's authors are, so please tell me why they should be considered reliable sources? We're looking for facts, not propaganda. Additionally, the term "Sovereign Citizen" is an oxymoron. You can't be a Sovereign AND a Citizen! Whoever coined that phrase didn't know about sovereignty, did they? This article doesn't deserve to be here, because it is all based on assumptions. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 11:20, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
-Because the ADL is considered to be a reliable source. It is generally not considered necessary to demand that every source article be perfectly cited itself if it comes from a reliable publication. And no, this article is not based on assumptions, it is based on the fact that judges have thrown this useless argument out of court every time it pops up. And whether you like it or not, the fact is that law is defined by the legal opinions and rulings of judges. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
* With all due respect <IP_ADDRESS>, 1) I understand where you are coming from and I do not encourage any unlawful behavior. I don't really care whether or not people are getting convicted of crimes related to the so called "Sovereign Citizens" movement. I just want to see an unbiased viewpoint. Obviously the ADL are coming from a position of disapproval with the Posse Commatatus reference. Tell me how this is helping the article remain unbiased? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
* It is certainly correct to say that from a U.S. law standpoint, an individual cannot be a "sovereign" (whether he or she is a citizen or not). Sovereignty in the United States is a "group" concept -- as in, "the people are sovereign" (not "a specific individual person" is sovereign). Having said that, I agree that the article is not "all based on assumptions." It is an article about a wacky -- but notable -- fringe group, much like "tax protesters," for whom Wikipedia has a whole group of articles. And under the U.S. legal system, the authoritative interpretations of the law are indeed court rulings, not the theories of members of some fringe group. Famspear (talk) 01:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
* Famspear, I'm sorry but your statement is not accurate. See Black's Law dictionary 5th edition entry for "Sovereign", a sovereign is a person, body, or state having supreme authority over themselves. So, a citizen and a sovereign are two very conflicting concepts which is why I think it is an Oxymoron. Any questions?<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Dear <IP_ADDRESS>: I'm very sorry, but you're apparently not understanding what I wrote. I am agreeing with you. The term "citizen" as a description of a U.S. citizen, and a "sovereign" -- as a description of just about ANY resident of the United States, are indeed "oxymoronic." The two are indeed very conflicting concepts. An "individual" in the United States cannot be a "sovereign." So, exactly which "statement" that I made do you somehow interpret as being "not accurate"? Famspear (talk) 01:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Dear <IP_ADDRESS>: I have, however, deleted the entry in the article referring to Black's Law Dictionary. I just happen to own a copy of Black's Law Dictionary, 5th ed., which is the version that was referenced. The definition of "sovereign" in that dictionary is: "A person, body, or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested; a chief ruler weith supreme pwoer; a king or other ruler with limited power." Black's Law Dictionary, p. 1252 (5th ed. 1979). The entry in the article was a bit too far off. Famspear (talk) 01:21, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Now, I have added the actual verbatim definition of "sovereign" from Black's Law Dictionary, and I have re-arranged the order of the sentences in that section. The believers of the "sovereign citizen" movement are wrong, but Wikipedia itself cannot take the position in a Wikipedia article that the believers are wrong. What we do is report what reliable, previously published third party sources say. Famspear (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh, by the way, regarding this question: "Obviously the ADL are coming from a position of disapproval with the Posse Commatatus reference. Tell me how this is helping the article remain unbiased?" Whether the ADL is biased or not is not the question, if we are using ADL as a source. In Wikipedia, the sources themselves do not have to be unbiased. The Wikipedia rule on Neutral Point of View (NPOV) does NOT require that the SOURCES be unbiased. NPOV refers to the way the material is presented by Wikipedia's writers in the article. You cannot delete source material from an article merely because the source material, or even the source itself, is "biased." Please review the rules on Neutral Point of View. Famspear (talk) 01:36, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
* Famspear, You state that the entry I wrote 'was a bit too far off', and you don't provide any reasoning for why you removed it other than your interpretation of Blacks Law Dictionary is more accurate than mine. I also sense that you have some kind of vested interest in keeping the article about how Sovereign Citizens have broken the law, are conspiracy theorists, have 'wacky' legal theories, and should be treated as a fringe group of outsiders. You stated 'The believers of the "sovereign citizen" movement are wrong..' but are they wrong 100% of the time? I don't think so. It isn't fair to put all of them in a bad light just because a few of them have broken the law or acted violently. Unfortunately, this is what has happened to the article. You are not the authority on this subject. No one is. Your original reply to me included the phrase 'Sovereignty in the United States is a "group" concept'. Yes, it is. But it is ALSO an individual concept as well, as Black's Law Dictionary states when it says a PERSON. That is why the term 'Sovereign Citizen' makes no sense. Anyone who has studied the numerous publications about UCC Redemption would laugh at this label that was given to them. I'll let you respond to this first before I place my original text back in the article. I'm not deleting any entries because I think they are wrong, so please refrain from deleting mine. I'm trying to abide by the Wikipedia standards because they are fair to everyone, I hope you would do the same in the future. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 19:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
* Famspear, according to Wikipedia, "..Articles should be written in your own words while substantially retaining the meaning of the source material." I have not violated this rule, therefore you acted out of line when you removed my text from the article. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt until you clearly show otherwise. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:38, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
* Dear IP<IP_ADDRESS>: I'm not sure what you mean by the statement that you "sense" that I have some sort of "vested interest," other than that you are reacting to the fact that your material was edited. Your request that I refrain from deleting your entries is misplaced. Everything you and I write is subject to being edited or deleted by another editor.
* No, I did not violate the Wikipedia rule. No, I was not out of line. Please go back and re-read the original entry. I would argue that the original entry is not what Black's Law Dictionary said -- or meant. To avoid any confusion, I therefore replaced the original entry with a direct quote from Black's -- indeed from the very same edition of Black's that was cited, the Fifth Edition. It's OK to paraphrase rather than provide a direct quote, but the paraphrase must accurately summarize the source.
* Black's Law Dictionary does not say that an individual citizen or resident of the United States is a "sovereign." The reference in Black's Law Dictionary to a single person is a reference to a single person having sovereignty such as a monarch - a king, for example. A single individual citizen of the United States, for example, does not have sovereignty in the legal sense, and Black's Law Dictionary cannot be cited for an argument to the contrary. Famspear (talk) 23:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
* Famspear, I still think you're incorrect about your interpretation of personal sovereignty, but I'm not going to add the text back in there. Perhaps we can add the entry for "citizen" and let the readers decide for themselves if 'Sovereign Citizen' is a phrase that makes sense to them? Cheers Visitor10001 (talk) 00:43, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Or, maybe add a link to the Wikipedia article on citizenship. At any rate, I would argue that it's not really a question of letting the readers decide whether the term "makes sense" to the reader. I would argue the main job is just to present information about the topic -- from reliable, previously published third party sources. Here's one possible definition that could be used:
* Citizen: "One who, under the Constitution and laws of the United States, or of a particular state, is a member of the political community, owing allegiance and being entitled to the enjoyment of full civil rights. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."
--from Black's Law Dictionary, p. 221 (5th ed. 1979). Famspear (talk) 03:15, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
This is the Wikipedia article: Citizenship. Famspear (talk) 03:16, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Information about the topic of "Sovereign Citizen", so, "Sovereign" and "Citizen" are both directly related to the topic and therefore are worthy of having a clear and precise legal definition in the article. Visitor10001 (talk) 09:28, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
* OK, I added the definition of "citizen" to the article. Famspear (talk) 13:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
False Portrayal and Categorization
I am adding some new text into the article. Hopefully this will help to show people both sides to the story. Please do not remove this, I have clearly used a reliable source, and remember that Wikipedia does not require that a reliable source be unbiased, as so many contributors have commented to me in reference to my statements. Thank You. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:36, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I see that someone has edited and moved my entry to the bottom of the article. Shall I add a few more paragraphs to the article that may not be in harmony with the ADL and SPLC viewpoint? Or would this anonymous person like to stop editing my text? I'd rather not play king of the mountain, I have better things to do than patrol this article. Visitor10001 (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
The text I added is in the wrong sub-heading. I would like to move it to the History Section, though I fear retaliation from another anonymous scholar. Perhaps we can come to a compromise? Visitor10001 (talk) 22:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
* Dear Visitor10001: Welcome to Wikipedia! One of the rules is to assume good faith of other editors when editing in Wikipedia. Also, everything you and I write is subject to the possibility of edition. Your reference to a "fear" of "retaliation" may really be a "fear" of seeing others edit what you have written. This article is a work in progress, as are all articles in Wikipedia. When others edit what you write, don't take it personally.
* I moved the material down into the next section because, with its mention of the SPLC's view of sovereign citizens, it seems to "fit" more readily in the article right after the other reference to SPLC that was already in the article.
* PS: Technically, I am not "anonymous" -- and neither are you, at this point, since you have set up an account with the user name "Visitor10001." We are both "pseudonymous" since we have user names that are not our "real" names. Yours, Famspear (talk) 22:49, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
* Fair enough. I'm glad that I was able to contribute to this topic. Cheers! Visitor10001 (talk) 00:34, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
..just because some SC promoter misrepresented
And on that same token, it isn't necessary to remove them, just because some anti Sovereign Citizen editor thinks they should be removed without giving an intelligent reason. I see right through your lame excuses, you're just mad because your little smear campaign is turning into something that is more accurate than it used to be. I will not back down until both sides of the story are told. So, you wanna play hardball? Let's play! Visitor10001 (talk) 03:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
* Dear Visitor10001: You may want to review Wikipedia's policies about edit warring. Be careful, because it is normally a violation to revert other editors more than three times in a 24 hour period. Also, personal attacks are violations. Statements such as "I see right through your lame excuses" and "you wanna play hardball" and "I will not back down until both sides of the story are told" are also hurting your position. You've done a good job working with me, but I think you are alienating some experienced editors here. Please take a deep breath. Thanks! Famspear (talk) 03:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
* Funny, because my edit's have been repeatedly removed without good reason more than 3 times in a 24 hour period. But I guess there's nothing I can do, because of people like you. So tell me how that is fair? I'm sure you'll have some Wikipedia canned answer for that. Visitor10001 (talk) 05:46, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Remove or Alter the usage of the word "extremist" in the first sentence of the article
I removed the word "extremist" due to its ambiguous meaning and frequent usage as an expression of opinion rather than a fact. I did not think its usage lended value to the article nor was its usage neutral in this context.
<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC) K.C.Golden
* I undid your edit. The claim is not an opinion someone just crammed into the article; the terminology is sourced to the FBI itself, which used the word to refer to the movement and its participants. Silvercitychristmasisland (talk) 22:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
* I understand where you're coming from. In that case, its usage should refer to the source such as "according to the FBI..." followed by a quote from the report in order to keep the article neutral. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a member and agree with the term to describe the group, just not the way its written out right now as it currently implies an expression of opinion in the wiki article itself when it was in fact, the FBI report that expressed the opinion so they should be directly quoted if it is to be used. I'll leave that decision to you.Oldmanklc (talk) 23:07, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
* That it's sourced to the FBI is how it says "according to the FBI." If everything worked that way, every single sourced statement would be "according to Webster's Dictionary," "according to historian Bob Smith," etc.
* I think, if anyone is allowed to designate a definition, it's Webster's, and if something is defined, I don't think you should say, "in Webster's opinion, the word 'boat' means..." because Webster's is stating facts it knows, not opinions. On the same side of the coin, if I want an expert analysis of a group like this, I'll ask the FBI. The term, while inflammatory, isn't just a tossed-off opinion; it's the result of tons of investigations, trials, arrests, and research. Silvercitychristmasisland (talk) 23:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
* It's one thing to cite a source which is reporting a fact without a quote as in the below sentence:
* The average temperature in the interior of Antarctica is -50°C.
* When citing an opinion, it needs to be clear that it is the cited source making the statement and not the article. It is not clear that this is the case without come sort of quote. Even quotation marks around the word "extremist" would be appropriate.
* To further back up what I am saying, see the section "Handling Neutrality Disputes," subsection "Attributing and specifying biased statements" of Wikipedia's "Neutral Point of View" article. In it, it describes specifically how I am requesting the FBI's opinion of the group be described in the article. It even says specifically "Biased statements of opinion can only be presented with attribution," meaning the cited source must be quoted..
* I have made an edit which I believe is compliant with Wiki's Neutrality Guidelines while leaving the word "extremist" in the article. While I do not agree that the statement lends any value to the article, at least attempting to cite it in the manner of my recent edit keeps the article factual since it merely quotes rather than appears to agree with a bias in one of its sources. I hope that further edits along these lines will involve how best to use the biased statement rather than edits which introduce the bias into the article itself.Oldmanklc (talk) 14:35, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation
The United States Federal Bureau of Investigation is not a reliable source. The FBI, as well as any other "gov" agency have a free-for-all publishing pass. They can basically say whatever the hell they want, and since they are the government, then it must be true, and if you dare to question were they got their information, then you're automatically a "fringe conspiracy theorist" or whatever the term is these days. I'm tired of reading blatant LIES cited from government publications that claim to be "official statements" about this and that. Obviously, the government is going to try their hardest to make these people seem like really dangerous "extremists" (god I hate that word). The gov't doesn't like it when people get to the root of their fraudulent colorable courts and implied powers of police state. As if they would come out and admit to enslaving the entire "citizen" population through the Federal Reserve (british fractional reserve banking), subtle brain-washing by the major "news outlets", poisoning our food and water etc... Am I a "conspiracy theorist" now?? Is that what you've decided to label me as? Yeah, that's because your brain cannot handle the cognitive dissonance you'd have to endure if you decided to look at this topic with an open mind, rather than a sock-puppet gov't free pass to distort the truth and fraudulently create some stupid "reality". Thank you very much. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
* The Federal Bureau of Investigation is a reliable source. Famspear (talk) 22:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
* Well let's not trust the FBI too much, shall we (grain of salt and all that)? It has lied to the American people and the Congress before. But in this case, concerning this particular subject IMHO it is a reliable source (I actually find 60 minutes more trustworthy - and the documentary seemed reliable enough). Flamarande (talk) 02:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
* Famspear, no, they aren't reliable until they are verifiable. Where does the FBI get their trusted 3rd party information then? How can I double check to make sure they aren't "self publishing" whatever they deem necessary to achieve their agenda?? Well, I probably can't. You see my point? <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:49, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I see your point, and the point misses the point. Under the rules of Wikipedia, the FBI is considered a reliable source. Your job as a Wikipedia editor is not to "double check" a source to make sure it isn't "self publishing" whatever it "deems necessary" to achieve its "agenda." Government agencies have been putting out falsehoods for as long as there have been government agencies. And people in government agencies may have agendas -- which may make them biased.
The fact that a source such as the FBI may have an "agenda" or may be "biased" or may be "self publishing whatever it deems necessary" is not a valid objection for to the use of that source in Wikipedia. In Wikipedia, sources are allowed to be biased, and Wikipedia does not exclude biased sources merely because they are biased. Please review the Wikipedia guidelines on Relaible Sources and, in particular, the Wikipedia rules on Neutral Point of View. Yours, Famspear (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* The FBI can be as biased as they want, so long as you and I can find the trusted 3rd party sources they used to formulate those views. So you're basically avoiding the real question here, Famspear. The FBI can "self-publish", however some other obscure organization or researcher cannot hope to have their viewpoint taken seriously because.. well.. they aren't like the FBI? I can't see the logic behind your statements. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 14:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
No, I am not avoiding the "real question" here. The real question is whether, for purposes of Wikipedia, the FBI is considered a reliable source. The real question is not whether YOU consider the FBI to be a "reliable source," but rather whether the FBI is considered a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia.
No, there is no Wikipedia rule that says that in order for Wikipedia to use the FBI as a source in an article, Wikipedia editors must be able to "find the trusted 3rd party source they [the FBI] used to formulate those views [sic]."
The FBI is a U.S. government agency. It's part of the U.S. Department of Justice. It has a good reputation for checking the facts -- that's the job of the FBI. There is meaningful oversight within the FBI to provide reasonable assurance that FBI news releases are accurate. That doesn't mean that the FBI is always correct. That doesn't mean that FBI employees have never put out false information. The FBI is not "widely acknowledged" as being "extremist" or "promotional," and the FBI does not rely heavily on rumour or personal opinion in issuing its news releases.
The term "self-publishing" as that term is used in Wikipedia does not refer to publishing of official statements by a U.S. government agency. The term does refer to things such as web sites by private individuals or private organizations without a reputation for fact-checking.
The reason you can't see the "logic" behind my statements is that I'm not using "my logic." I am explaining the rules of Wikipedia. Famspear (talk) 16:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* That's correct, that's the way Wikipedia works. Dougweller (talk) 16:47, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* "The FBI is a U.S. government agency." So what? That means absolutely nothing. "There is meaningful oversight within the FBI.." And whose definition of "meaningful" are we using here? "..and the FBI does not rely heavily on rumour or personal opinion in issuing its news releases" I'm sure they don't, yet I still have no clue what they actually do rely on for their news releases, and that's the problem I'm hoping we can resolve here. Thank you. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 20:15, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* And that's why people who use their brains can't take Wikipedia seriously. The End. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* I think most intelligent people can understand our policies and guidelines. That you don't like them doesn't prove you aren't intelligent but it may suggest that your pov is getting in your way - I suspect anyone taken in by this movement would struggle with the way we work. Dougweller (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* User IP<IP_ADDRESS> wrote: ".....yet I still have no clue what they actually do rely on for their news releases, and that's the problem I'm hoping we can resolve here."
* No, we cannot "resolve" what you refer to as that "problem" here - not here on a Wikipedia talk page. We as Wikipedia editors are not here to do an in-depth analysis of how the FBI formulates the content of its news releases. In matters of federal law enforcement involving the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the consensus among Wikipedia editors is that the FBI itself is considered a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia. That means that Wikipedia editors can use the FBI as a source in Wikipedia articles. Famspear (talk) 22:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
* " We as Wikipedia editors are not here to do an in-depth analysis of how the FBI formulates the content of its news releases." So you're speaking for every Wikipedia editor, not one of which cares to question the legitimacy of 'official statements' from the FBI (and other agencies I assume). Wow. That's believable. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 10:47, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Dear user at IP <IP_ADDRESS>: No, I'm not speaking for "every Wikipedia editor." I'm explaining to you what we as Wikipedia editors are here -- or in this case are not here -- to do, just as any other Wikipedia editor might explain to you on a talk page. And our purpose here as editors is not to "question" -- or "not question" -- the "legitimacy" of official statements from the FBI or other government agencies. Our purpose is to write and edit this encyclopedia using reliable, previously published third party sources. We can report on what reliable, previously published third party sources have done to "question" what you call the "legitimacy" of official government pronouncements, but it is not our job to do the "questioning" ourselves. Wikipedia articles are not places for publishing the personal beliefs of Wikipedia editors. Famspear (talk) 21:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Was it not the whole "we write what we are told" attitude of mainstream media that led to the rise of wiki-frenzy in the first place. It might be politically correct to cite wikipedias opinion to be the same as the FBI (ie no need to state that "X came from the FBI" when "X" will suffice), but if an article focussed on politics allows itself to be superceded by a currently powerful political entity, then it is hardly being faithful to the truth. I dont know about wikipedia policies - and there are some people claiming that its policy to consider government entities to be more truthful than any other entities - but I notice that wikipedia is not a reliable source when it comes to politics. The talk pages are more telling than the articles when it comes to political or social matters. PS The FBI, like any agency of any government is engaged in lying constantly and its usually evidenced by their own admissions which can usually be found swept under carpets but never on the television or anything that it seems alot of wikipedia editors consume very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm disgusted by the derisive POV tone in this article.
This is unencyclopedic to the max. The sovereign citizens are surreptitiously being painted as loonies making cockamamie claims. You people know damn well that putting their claims in quotes when none are called for is equivalent to making air quotes to imply sarcastic mockery. COME ON. And the article focuses almost exclusively on the illegal and unethical activities of the group, and its dismissal by the very court system they hold to be the problem (where it should be implicit that the court's dismissal of their claim is to be expected and carries little weight), without giving the time of day to the validity of the group's concerns and claims. This article's contributors should be ashamed of themselves. Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 06:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the burden is probably on you to show why this should not be treated as more than a fringe theory. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 07:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
* Lenin and McCarthy, there's no burden here at all. The general consensus has NOT been reached yet. This is an online encyclopedia, not a debate competition. In case you didn't realize, the ratio of editors on the "fringe conspiracy" side is actually much much lower than you assume. Thanks.
<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
* Probably, but extra measures are being taken in this article to actively cop a snide tone. Air quotes are uncalled for and totally inappropriate. I feel like I'm reading Conservapedia.
* Here, let me take an artificial stance in their favor and argue their case so you can see it's not complete horsecrap: People claiming sovereignty argue that they have never given consent to be ruled; they were born and a government simply assumed ownership of them, due merely to the geographic location where they, through no choice of their own, happened to be born. Therefore the government should not be able to force itself onto them and, on threat of imprisonment, force them to give it money from their pockets, hard-earned from their labor, when they do not use any of that government's services and never asked to be a part of this. You can't be born into inherited slavery if freedom is a natural right. The government should also not be allowed to force laws upon you that you never agreed to. You are not a slave or property. "I reject the idea that I was born damned to be a cog in this machine whether I like it or not."
* Sovereignty of the individual is a philosophical concept much bigger than this marginalized movement, and fairly well-understood by the intelligentsia, so it is not a mere "fringe theory" (see, I can air-quote too). I don't think it needs as much explanation as you seem to be requiring. Because of this, I plead clemency for this group and beg for a better article. I do understand how they feel. The nature of their "illegal" actions is in direct keeping with their credo and does not discredit the movement, contrary to what is being implied by the tone and structure of the article. Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 12:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
* MacAstaroth, you stated that Sovereignty of the individual is a philosophical concept. Yes you are correct, but sovereignty is much more than a philosophical subject that you discuss with your accredited mentors. Sovereignty is a legal word, it is found in trusted legal dictionaries. The publishers of Black's Law Dictionary included the definition of personal sovereignty because it is a legal concept with legal consequences. Try not to conveniently ignore that. Thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 07:43, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't usually interlineate comments, but I would point out that user IP<IP_ADDRESS> is confused. No one is saying that the term "sovereignty" isn't a legal term. What I am saying is that there is no such thing, in the United States of America, as a legal doctrine or rule of law that recognizes that a specific individual is "sovereign" in the sense in which those people who are the subject of this article use that term. Whether you or I want to be or not, we are subject to the federal and state laws of the United States. Black's Law Dictionary doesn't say other wise, so my advice to IP <IP_ADDRESS> is: "try not to conveniently ignore that." Famspear (talk) 20:03, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* Dear Succubus MacAstaroth: Actually, yes, this is a fringe theory. Neither the United States nor any other nation has ever recognized the idea that each specific individual within the society is somehow "sovereign." Indeed, it's logically and legally nonsensical.
* Famspear, of course the US can't acknowledge that each individual is somehow a "sovereign." The reason for this is because the United States is a fictitious corporate entity, and has no jurisdiction or authority to make such statements.
Another reason that pops to mind is that the United States has no incentive to make those kinds of statements.
* The United States municipal courts etc.. derive their revenue by getting convictions and collecting federal reserve notes from citizens who have violated one of the trillions of codes or statutes that the US claims to be / has decided is "the law." If the United States started recognizing folks as sovereign beings with rights and remedies in court, those courts would be playing fair. This would not create a very profitable environment, now would it :P Clearly this personal sovereignty concept is mainstream media poison. Wikipedia's 3rd party publishers are considered to be mainstream media. Wikipedia is therefore mainstream media as well. So the POV for this article is actually just fine and dandy. I guess I was wrong for expecting a MSM content publisher to go against their own viewpoint. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
More interlineation: Baloney. The concept of "personal sovereignty" as promulgated by the people who are the subject of this article is not "mainstream media poison," and Wikipedia is not going against "its own viewpoint." Wikipedia itself does not have a "viewpoint" on the topic. Famspear (talk) 20:03, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* The concept in the United States is that the people are sovereign - not each individual person. That's the people -- as a group.
* Individual sovereignty occurs only in the case of nations with a monarchy -- where ONE person (e.g., the King) has sovereignty. That is not what the sovereign citizen movement is talking about.
* By definition, anyone who subscribes to the "sovereign citizen" movement in the United States and who acts accordingly in his or her daily life is probably going to be risking engaging in some sort of criminal activity of some sort, even if only minor criminality. There is no sovereign right, for example, to drive without a driver's license, etc.
* Famspear, from the perspective of a public official who represents the fictitious entity DBA "The United States", your statements would be considered a legal fact. It's just that not all people are affected by the jurisdiction of the United States. There are situations were the Sovereign Citizens theories are perfectly valid. Also Famspear, you don't even know what a "fringe conspiracy" is, nor do you really know what lies beyond the scope of law you are in favor of. Thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:40, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Interlineation: Yes, all people who are physically located within the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, except for a few people such as foreigners with diplomatic immunity, etc. There is no rule of law that exempts an ordinary person born in the physical confines of the United States of America from the jurisdiction of the United States. Even a foreigner who enters the United States illegally and without diplomatic immunity is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Famspear (talk) 20:03, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* Yes, the Sovereign Citizen theories are fringe theories. They have no basis in American law. This kind of argument is the equivalent of someone arguing that scientifically, the Moon is somehow made of green cheese. The people who espouse this nonsense are making Green Cheese Arguments. In Wikipedia Neutral Point of View does not involve giving equal weight to fringe theories. Famspear (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
* Oh, by the way: The statement in the heading of this section to the contrary notwithstanding, this article does not have a "derisive" tone or a "derisive" POV. And further, under the rules of Wikipedia, Neutral Point of View (NPOV) does not involve or require giving equal weight to fringe positions. Famspear (talk) 13:52, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
* Never meant to suggest it should be given equal weight. I reiterate: "extra measures are being taken in this article to actively cop a snide tone." It's one thing to make clear in the article that the majority do not espouse the movement and that it has questionable or no legal precedent. It's another thing to write an article full of unnecessary air quotes and clear excessive bias. Imagine an article on communism written by a Middle American in the 1960s. Yeah. Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 06:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm agreed with Succubus MacAstaroth. I don't claim to be an expert on this area, but I can see several elements of questionable neutrality. For example, take the sentence "Supporters sell instructions explaining how to "free" oneself by filing particular government forms in a particular order using particular wording." Succubus already mentioned air-quoting, this is also a pet-peeve of mine on supposedly reputable articles, and the wording of this is emotive, set up to subtly make us question the content: the repetition of the word "particular", describing supporters "selling" instructions as if it is no more than a greedy money-fuelled society." It's done irritatingly cleverly to the point where the neutrality issue is linguistic.
I'm going to have a go at amending this. If you want to undo my edits then I can't exactly do anything to stop you, but I'm happy to further discuss it. This is not trying to give equal weight to Sovereign Citizenry, as Famspear states, merely substituting neutral language where I feel it is needed. --Futile Crush (talk) 17:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
* Dear Succubus MacAstaroth: Thanks for the note about "air-quoting". That's a helpful comment on the article itself. And thanks to Futile Crush for those changes. Famspear (talk) 02:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Contradictory statements
"Self-described sovereign citizens take the position that they are answerable only to common law and are not subject to any statutes or proceedings at the federal, state or municipal levels, or that they do not recognize U.S. currency and that they are "free of any legal constraints"." "They especially reject most forms of taxation as illegitimate." These 2 statements contradict themselves. They don't see money as legitimate, but they collect it anyway and refuse to pay taxes on it? Also, if they are only subjected to common law, then wouldn't taxes apply since the Supreme Court has ruled that Congress has the power to tax? You can't be "only judicial rulings" and then ignore them at the same time. Or am I missing something? No part of this ideology makes any sense to me. This article should be re-written by someone with more knowledge. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 02:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
* Dear user at IP<IP_ADDRESS>: The description of the ideology doesn't make sense to me either. It doesn't have to make sense to you or to me in order to be a correct statement of the ideology. From a logical, legal and political standpoint, the sovereign citizen theory is nonsensical. Famspear (talk) 03:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
The description above is a mash of all ideals the SCM would encompass, much like Republicans are generally Pro-Life. Essentially, common law is precedent or law that is applied by the courts and used as a "common", or normal ruling, as opposed to a Federal Mandate. Not recognizing U.S. Currency is the same as most shop owners not recognizing Monopoly Money. U.S. Currency isn't "money" as much as "Gold" or "Silver" is.. And SC's generally believe that taxation is a violation of due process, to be subjected to fines and have (in many cases ) up to 33 percent of your yearly gross removed before the check can even be cashed. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:23, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
This article should not be in wikipedia
This article should not be in wikipedia. It is completely biased and is based on eliciting fear to suppress a movement. Is there a way to "report" something on wiki? I do not consider myself a staunch supporter of the the movement that is being discussed, but I still respect what is going on and would like to learn more. I have just lost respect for other information on wiki by seeing that this article is published on here. I know that some college professors allow students to use wiki for introductory papers. That says a lot for the possibilities of of this "encyclopedia", but I am completely disgusted by the biased and uneducated stance of this article. --kcase — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
* What parts do you feel are incorrect? In its present form, this article gives a clear statement of their ideology, while pointing out that (as the commentors just above your note have seen) that the movement's ideology is based on a farrago of falsehood and misinterpretation. The article also makes clear that the movment has been used by persons of ill-will to mislead and injure many innocent people. While we strive valiantly to maintain a proper neutral point-of-view on all topics, our content guidelines also clarify that we should not inadvertently or deliberately lend credibility to "fringe" theories which deserve no such attention. -- Orange Mike | Talk 19:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
* Dear user at IP<IP_ADDRESS>: Please identify the specific words in the article that you feel are "biased." And please identify the specific words that you feel are "uneducated." Please identify the specific words that you feel are "based on eliciting fear to suppress a movement". Famspear (talk) 20:34, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
This discussion page is a fantastic demonstration of how Wikipedia really operates. Thank you, Famspear. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
* You're welcome. Famspear (talk) 22:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
POV Prevents Article from Beling Useful
After reading about the "Sovereign Citizen Movement" in a CNN article, I decided to do what I always do and come to Wikipedia to learn more about the history and the ideas behind the movement. However, unlike most Wikipedia articles, the article is merely an article blatantly editorializing against whatever this movement is. I suggest that the article be re-written / re-organized by someone familiar with the topic to unbiasedly explain the topic, and that additional sections be added to explain the criticisms with the concept. The article isn't very informative as it is written and organized. Tim Neely 18:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tneely (talk • contribs)
* Which CNN article? I do note that the article has nothing in it about recent concerns about its potential as a domestic threat, eg "The FBI said members of the movement have killed six police officers since 2000. A shootout in West Memphis, Ark., in 2010 left four people dead, including two officers in one of the more deadly clashes."We are focusing our efforts because of the threat of violence," said Stuart R. McArthur, a deputy assistant director in the FBI's Counterterrorism Division. Studies by the Homeland Security Department and the National Counterterrorism Center listed the sovereign citizen movement alongside Islamic extremists and white supremacists as major threats to the United States, the Times reported. More than 100,000 people have aligned themselves with the movement, said the Southern Poverty Law center, which tracks domestic terrorists and hate groups.
* See also the LA Times article
* And this article from last year Dougweller (talk) 19:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
* I don't think that's the focus he was looking for.
* At any rate, the problem is, as far as I can tell, there is no "sovereign" participant who can be considered a representative of the movement as a whole, or who has a major media prescense. Are there any big names behind this like Alex Jones and the Loose Change guys at the very least? --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 19:23, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
You totally missed the point of my comment. The article has very little information about the movement. I had to go elsewhere on the web to learn about the subject. The article is written more as a warning about the moivement than an encyclopedia article. I did find the criticisms useful, but only after I went elsewhere to actually learn what Wikipedia should have told me in the first place. By the way, my POV would be the same as the POV in this article, but those criticisms should be in a criticisms section not in the other parts of the article. I am also not asking for some balance here - I simply think the article should not be a POV piece. Tim Neely 19:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I mentioned CNN only because that is where I read an article that mentioned the movement. That article made me want to come here to learn background. That is when I learned that the Wikipedia article was POV rather than encyclopedic. I did not mention the CNN piece as a citation for anything. I suppose it sould be used as a citation if a section was added about laws being passed to stop the frivolous liens being created by those in the movement. But again that wan't my point. Tim Neely 19:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tneely (talk • contribs)
* The basic deficiency of the article is not a "POV" issue; it is not that the article lacks a Neutral Point of View. The article material is presented in a fairly neutral manner. The basic deficiency is that the article needs more on the details of the philosophy, etc., of the Sovereign Citizen Movement. That will hopefully improve as time goes by. Famspear (talk) 04:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
* Famspear, I agree enthusiastically with your statements above! Why then have most of the SC POV references been scrutinized and removed, or taken out of context, or hijacked to support the anti SC POV? I'm not trying to imply that both POV be given equal weight either. I'm saying that the SC POV cannot survive here while it is being hunted to extinction. Thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 09:44, 5 June 2012 (UTC) <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:22, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
ABC Nightline Broadcast on 3/8/12 for Citation Needed Sources
The ABC Nightline broadcast of March 8th provides documentation for comments marked "citation needed." Csarkwrite (talk) 05:08, 9 March 2012 (UTC)csarkwrite
Joseph Stack
An occasional problem I have noticed with WP's policies regarding sources, is the the assumption of organizational reliability that overrides the question of whether the specific source has bothered to support its claim. In this case, there is the assumption that ABC News is reliable when it claims in passing that Joseph Stack was a SC. You read Stack's suicide letter here, and I challenge to to identify where he relies on the esoteric legal theories of the SCM. Stack said that he was being screwed by the tax laws. He did not say that the laws had no authority over him, but argued at length from the assumption that they did. The belief that one is a victim of class warfare does not make someone part of the SCM. Citing the tax laws to explain a political grievance does not make someone part of the SCM. I am removing the mention of Stack from the article. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 01:32, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
* Dear IP <IP_ADDRESS>: As Wikipedia editors, I'm not sure that we're supposed to be demanding that the source "bother to support its claim." If ABC News identified Stack as a member of the Sovereign Citizen movement, then that's what ABC did. ABC may be correct, or it may be wrong. We don't know what information ABC used in concluding that it could make that statement -- and that's often true of many statements from many reliable sources. I would argue that as Wikipedia editors we are not generally supposed to delete source material merely because we don't know what "support" the source had for its claim. If a source is considered to be a reliable source, generally that's sufficient. However, I'm not going to revert your edit unless some sort of consensus develops about it. And if someone locates another reliable source that says that Stack was a member of the SC movement, that might change the picture. Thanks for your input.... Famspear (talk) 02:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
* PS: If we think about it, we may realize that many current news items published by ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, BBC, etc., etc., do not include statements where the news organization "bothers to support" what it "claims" in the news report. In fact, major news organizations often decline to name their own sources; they simply state that the information is from a "reliable source" or "a well-informed" source" or "a high level source in the Pentagon" or something along that line. Making such a statement in a news report instead of naming the source is the functional equivalent of saying "you're just going to have to trust us on this."
* Famspear, you stated "As Wikipedia editors, I'm not sure that we're supposed to be demanding that the source bother to support its claim." You really don't mind if one of your sources is deliberately telling lies? You'd rather just assume that they are? How far in to the world of fiction could that attitude take Wikipedia? Would you as an editor feel any better or worse if you found out you'd been referencing lies? You seem to be at a very high level of editorial efficiency so that statement shocked me just a bit. Thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 09:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
* Further, some pieces of data in news reports are not accompanied by any specific statement at all with regard to the source. The fact that we as Wikipedia editors cannot see the "support" for what the source is reporting -- which is often the case -- is not necessarily objectionable from the standpoint of Wikipedia policy on the use of the source material. Famspear (talk) 03:14, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
* It IS however objectionable to anyone that wanted to learn something meaningful and factual. Thanks. <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:17, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
* Nothing wrong with our clearly saying, "ABC News reported that Stack was a SCM member" and footnoting that report. Thus, we are not saying he was or wasn't: we are reporting what somebody else said, for them to take for what it's worth. -- Orange Mike | Talk 15:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
POV is the nicest term for this article
I am not a member of a "Soverign Citizes" group, I heard a talk radio program the other night where the commentator spoke about it. I was amazed, as I had never heard of such a thing before and went to the website he gave to find out more. Then I came to Wiki to find out what was written here on the subject. The only way to describe this article is to compare it to a hypothetical article written about the US Congress that spends 75% of it's space enumerating the cases where members of Congress have had sexual relationhips with underage pages of either sex, and only 25% actually describing the function of Congress, and the History of what it has done. You need to seperate the crimes of individual tax evaders and criminals who claim soverignty when faced with a prison term, from those who are writing coherent, albeit treasonous, articles on the subject. I humbly suggest that the editors of this article scrap it, and start from scratch. Perhaps if you go to www.therepublicfortheunitedstates.org you might find out the core beliefs and historical perspective of an organized group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 03:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* I'm not sure I'd use the term "treasonous", which has a narrow and specific meaning under the Constitution of the United States (which these clowns don't understand), to describe their writings. The sad fact is that the antics of these people, collectively and as induhviduals, are the only notable things about them, since their theories are not based on any coherent set of philosophies known to political science or to history. We find ourselves forced to write about what this movement and its adherents has/have done which is in fact notable: which is mostly crimes, violent and non-violent. -- Orange Mike | Talk 04:07, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Mormons and Scientologists have as little credibility, and as much crime to answer for as the Sovereignty groups, and yet when I read the Wikipedia articles on them I find that their beliefs and history are reasonably covered before the dirt on their many sins is dug up. All I'm saying is that this group either deserves the same treatment, or the whole article should be d/c'd rather than reading like the National Inquirer or Paris Hilton's rag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:43, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* I'm not saying I entirely disagree with you; but except as necessary in the course of a ruling by a court dismissing their appeals, nobody much has written on these theories, because they are so far out on the fringe. I'd be delighted if someone found a good item-by-item explanation and refutation of the various inchoate claims these folks make; but the only place you generally find them discussed is in various blogs and mock-the-wacko websites, which fail WP:RS. -- Orange Mike | Talk 14:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
* By the way, my favorite mocking-the-wackos website is Quatloos! This is their sub-forum for monitoring the antics of "sovereign citizens"; but it's not a reliable source, although it is a goldmine of links to new reports of their mishaps. -- Orange Mike | Talk 14:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I concur with what Orangemike has written. There are some mainstream news reports on the activities of "sovereign citizens" (more and more of them lately, I guess) but, unfortunately, there isn't much of anything in the fundamental principles or theories of the "movement's" adherents that is legally valid. Naturally, therefore, an article on sovereign citizens is going to look the way this one looks. By contrast, although I am not a member of the Mormon or Scientology groups, I would say that the fundamental purposes, theories, and activities of those groups are not based on something that has absolutely no legal or political validity.
By the way, I am a regular contributor at the Quatloos forum on tax protesters, "sovereign citizens", and other scams. Our main purpose at Quatloos is to expose scams -- but we do have fun, and there is definitely some mockery going on there. Very interesting forum! Famspear (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
the sovereignty of citizens
i have seen a lot of hate both from and towards this movement. i would hope wiki would be more unbiased, this, and other related articles are defaming and fear mongering on the subject and further put people at risk.
consider simply, all citizens of the united states, are sovereign. all of them. not some some, not a certain class or race or a few that file certain paperwork, but that all, every single 300-million of them, are sovereign, both collectively and individually.
when one understands this, sovereign citizen is by no means an oxymoron.
some people may declare the title or phrase, to reflect a personal belief or an assertion of independence.
the actions of a few, criminal extremists, are defaming other people. these articles further that defamation and need to be reworded to better reflect the nature of a sovereign citizen vs a sovereign extremist.
I would say, the category needs to be split, with a statement for sovereign citizens that states, 'the view held that americans hold sovereignty over themselves and their government'; thus moving the current articles, to the category, sovereign extremists, with the note that these people are extreme believers and criminals of the sentiment, who corrupt the notion through misunderstanding or intentional fraud.
<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 15:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Text dump moved from article
The following material was dumped in the article, and has been removed:
* "Sovereignty" is defined as: "The possession of sovereign power; supreme political authority; paramount control of the constitution and frame of government and Its administration" http://thelawdictionary.org/sovereignty/. In America, the people are sovereigns, not the government Juliard v. Greeman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=110&invol=421 Perez v. Brownell, 356 U.S. 44 (1958)|url=https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/US/356/356.US.44.44.html To further reiterate this fact, the Declaration of Independence says, "government is subject to the consent of the governed.".
* In 1913, sovereignty and allodial title http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title appear to have been unlawfully taken from the American people by the Privately Owned http://www.dailypaul.com/77899/the-primary-owners-of-the-federal-reserve-bank-are 'Federal Reserve Bank' via 'hypothecation' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothecation}} speech in Congress in The Bankruptcy of The United States United States Congressional Record, March 17, 1993 Vol. 33, page H-1303. Speaker-Rep. James Traficant, Jr. (Ohio) addressing the House http://www.babelmagazine.com/issue66/uscorporation.html the 'Federal Reserve Act' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act Speech in Congress in The Bankruptcy of The United States United States Congressional Record, March 17, 1993 Vol. 33, page H-1303. Speaker-Rep. James Traficant, Jr. (Ohio) addressing the House http://www.babelmagazine.com/issue66/uscorporation.html http://divinecosmos.com/start-here/davids-blog/1026-financial-tyranny-final?showall=1&limitstart=
* Fortunately however, all unconstitutional legislation is null and void and it is a crime for any member of Americas government to enforce such legislation Constitution for United States of America|location=Amendment 14 Norton v. Shelby County in the State of Tennessee, 118 U.S. 425 (1886) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=118&invol=425 LEGISLATIVE RESEARCH COMMISSION v. FISCHER, Supreme Court of Kentucky, April 26, 2012|url=http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ky-supreme-court/1599603.html Constitution for United States of America|location=Article VI.
* Furthermore, any member of government convicted of even a misdemeanor shall be removed from office Constitution for United States of America|location=Article II, Section IV.
* All Americans have equal rights Constitution for United States of America|location=Amendment 14 to cite, arrest, and prosecute any person, party, or member of government or military which they can prove with verifiable facts has committed a crime. This also means that Americans have the right to self-defense against an unlawful arrest, and to protect others from unlawful arrest, even when that other is consenting to such State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260 State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100 Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621 Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.
* Additionally, the federal government has no authority or jurisdiction over the people in the States, but only in the District of Columbia "The law of Congress in respect to those matters do not extend into the territorial limits of the states, but have force only in the District of Columbia, and other places that are within the exclusive jurisdiction of the national government." http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/152/211/case.html.
We can discuss the problems with this material below, perhaps beginning with the fake quotation. Famspear (talk) 00:03, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
First of all, the "quote" that begins with "The people are sovereign...." appears to be fake. It does not appear in the text of Juliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884). And it's "Greenman," not "Greeman." And it's "Julliard," not "Juliard."
Second the "quote" ("government is subject to the consent of the governed") supposedly from the Declaration of Independence does not actually appear in the Declaration of Independence. It appears to be a paraphrase, not a quote.
Third, this is not an article about the legal concept of sovereignty. This is an article about something called the "sovereign citizen movement." The concept of sovereignty as promulgated by the members of the movement is not the same as the actual legal and political concept of sovereignty.
More to come. Famspear (talk) 00:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
* Indented linethe thing I want to point out here, is that there is a difference between sovereign citizens, and a sovereign citizen movement. Not everyone who claims sovereignty is part of a movement, or violent, or believes a lot of the misinformation. it is dangerous to perpetuate a link between the two. its like saying all members of a religion are prone to violence. there needs to be a difference between, sovereign citizens, and the sovereign citizen movement.--<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 13:32, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
The statement: "In 1913, sovereignty and allodial title appear to have been unlawfully taken from the American people by the Privately Owned 'Federal Reserve Bank' via 'hypothecation'" is gibberish. The source given for this is the "dailypaul" -- which is hardly a reliable source for this purpose. This looks like something that a member of the sovereign citizen movement might say or write. Perhaps this gibberish could be re-added to the article, provided that a better source could be found to show that this statement represents a common belief of members of the movement. Famspear (talk) 00:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
"Babelmagazine" and "divine cosmos" are not reliable sources for purposes of Wikipedia. Famspear (talk) 00:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
The statement above -- that unconstitutional legislation is null and void and that it is a crime for any member of "Americas government" to enforce such legislation Constitution for United States of America -- is not found in the text of the cited case, Norton v. Shelby County, 118 U.S. 425 (1886). There is a passage in the text that includes the phrase "null and void", wherein the U.S. Supreme Court was quoting from the text of another court in another case, but the passage says nothing about it being a "crime" for any member of "Americas government" to enforce unconstitutional legislation. More explanation later. Famspear (talk) 00:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Article II, section IV (meaning, section 4) of the U.S. Constitution does not say that any member of government convicted of even a misdemeanor shall be removed from office. Here's what it says:
* "The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."
The term "conviction" here means conviction in the impeachment process -- that is, conviction by the United States Senate after an impeachment by the House of Representatives. This in no way applies to every member of the United States government; it applies only to the President, Vice President and CIVIL OFFICERS. That's a very small percentage of all "members" of the federal government. Famspear (talk) 00:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
And, no, not all Americans have "equal rights" to "prosecute" someone for committing a crime. None of the cited cases stand for such a silly proposition. That's typical "sovereign citizen" nonsense. Generally, criminal prosecutions can be conducted only by a legally constituted governmental authority, such as a district attorney, assistant district attorney, etc. There is no law that allows private citizens to have their own courts or to conduct their own criminal prosecutions, no matter how "sovereign" they feel they may be. Famspear (talk) 00:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
* Indented line No, but all citizens can arrest any other person and take them before a judge or magistrate to be prosecuted. Of course doing this without good cause opens that person to charges for unlawful arrest...
Rqpaine (talk) 20:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
The ridiculous statement that the federal government has no authority or jurisdiction over the people in the States, but only in the District of Columbia is not found, either in quote or in paraphrase, in the text of the Caha case that was cited above. The statement: "The law of Congress in respect to those matters do not extend into the territorial limits of the states, but have force only in the District of Columbia, and other places that are within the exclusive jurisdiction of the national government" is found in Caha -- but it refers to THOSE MATTERS. To know what "those matters" are, you have to actually read the text of Caha v. United States, 152 U.S. 211 (1894).
This kind of material is an example of why Wikipedia has a rule prohibiting "original research." This text dump is an example of the worst kind of original research -- making ridiculous statements, using fake quotes, using real quotes taken out of context ... in short, citing sources for propositions not promulgated by the sources. Famspear (talk) 00:58, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Question, why is the SC movement associated with 'far-right' politics?
It seems weird that a group that essentialy want to remove themselves from the political process are labeled as far-right. It would seem that they don't really have a political underpinning. It would seem that is more of an opinion.
Love the article though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dperry4930 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Most dangerous terrorist organization in the US
Story referencing government study which finds this to be the most dangerous terrorist organization on domestic soil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDpA9JChNf4
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:04, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Neutral? No.
This article is unbelievably biased. It does not even pretend to be unbiased. The article also needs a real cleaning. It cites way too many cases and most of them are not really noteworthy. Another thing is too much weight is given to the views of the State; for example almost every single cited case ends with a finding of "frivolous" but I have yet to find a legal explanation as to why... What laws were cited during these trials? Orasis (talk) 02:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
* No, the ariticle is presented with a neutral point of view, as that concept is defined in Wikipedia.
* There may or may not be bias in the source materials. Bias in the source materials, however, is not a violation of the Wikipedia rule on Neutral Point of View. The sources are allowed to be biased.
* Regarding your comment about a "legal explanation" for why a particular argument is frivolous: It is not the responsibility of the courts, when they render decisions, to explain why a frivolous position is frivolous. Indeed, the whole point is that a frivolous position is not worthy of serious consideration.
* It is not the responsibility of Wikipedia editors, in a Wikipedia article, to explain or justify a court decision that a particular argument in court is legally frivolous.
* It is, however, the responsibility of every litigant in court (at least, in the United States) to know when an argument is legally frivolous, and it's everyone's legal responsibility not to use frivolous arguments. In the United States, everyone is charged with responsibility for knowing the law.
* The article is presented with a Neutral Point of View. That does not mean "lack of bias." That means that Wikipedia presents the material without taking a position in the article as to who is right and who is wrong.
* Neutral Point of View does not mean giving equal weight to all sides. If you get the impression from the article, as written, that people who espouse the kinds of arguments described in the article are criminals and wackos, then you are getting the right picture -- and you are getting the picture not from a violation of Wikipedia rules, but rather from the weight of the authority as described in the court cases. In a court of law, "sovereign citizen" arguments are the functional equivalent of arguing, in a convention of scientists, that The Moon is made of Green Cheese. Famspear (talk) 03:24, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Here's a little background:
"Frivolous. Unworthy of serious attention; trivial [ . . .] inappropriately silly". American Heritage Dictionary, p. 535, Houghton Mifflin Co. (2d Coll. Ed. 1985).
"Frivolous. of little weight or importance [ . . . ] lacking in seriousness [ . . . ] irresponsibly self-indulgent". Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 461, G. & C. Merriam Co. (8th Ed. 1976).
Here's a famous quote from the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in the Crain case (a federal tax case), on why the courts often do not explain, in the texts of their rulings, the precise reasons why frivolous arguments are frivolous:
* We perceive no need to refute these arguments with somber reasoning and copious citation of precedent; to do so might suggest that these arguments have some colorable merit. The constitutionality of our income tax system — including the role played within that system by the Internal Revenue Service and the Tax Court — has long been established.
---from Crain v. Commissioner, 737 F.2d 1417 (5th Cir. 1984) (per curiam) (bolding added).
Again, the whole point is that, by definition, a frivolous argument is not worthy of serious attention. Famspear (talk) 03:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
* I have to agree of the extreme bias and poor case studies... it is highly one sided... there is no mention of the sources that provide proof that things like licenses are a privilege imposed upon the state and that they are all commercial in nature. There is no mention of the many cases of tax discharges that were completed and accepted by the government. There is no mention of the supreme court cases that support the fact that the 14th amendment was not ratified. There is no mention of HJR-192 which states that all labor and property of the American people will be the backing for the Private Credit that is issued by the Private Federal Reserve Bank. There is no mention of the constitution Article 1 section 10 and each state such as Oregon constitution article 11 section 1 concerning the issue that the current monetary system is not constitutional. But it is what we have. There are all associated with the Redemption concern that has substantial Legal documentation that supports the belief. There are also state senators (Georgia) that have stated that the licensing laws and the voluntary forcing of turning your automobile over to the state is in fact turning a right into a privilege... Tn supreme court case witness testimony from the DMV. Also, a law was advanced that does away with license and plates in Georgia recently... of course it went nowhere but it was a state senator that created the law. The point here is that this subject in all aspects is highly biased against the founding fathers basis of the sovereignty of the individuals as mentioned in the anti-federalist papers... The IRS that was created not by the US congress but by an act of the dept. of treasury. This is documented fact... It is not mentioned that the BAR is nothing more than an "association without standing" any more than a country club... that is documented fact as well... the selection of the so called source material is specifically biased and every write-up on the incidents page is supporting that negativity, where are the opposing sources and incidents (as there are many to select from). In fact it is very simple to find UCC and IRM references that support the sovereign point of reference and claim... for example there are many district court cases that support the claim of there being two classes of citizens... I also refer you to the "Trading with the Enemy Act" as well as the "Buck act"... If you look at title 28 sub section 3002 (10) and (15) you will find that the government code lists the United States as being a Corporation... it also states that a Us Citizen and a "Person" is in the same category as that of a corporation... If you look up these words in a Law Dictionary such as Blacks you will understand and see how the government changes the meaning of words. If you research the money issue, you will find that the Federal Reserve is no more Federal than the Federal Reserve... Of the IRS, a supreme court ruling stated that the IRS was not a government agency... Walker Todd a top ex-IRS agent testified and signed an affidavit (case#03.047448-cz Michigan)that there is no lawful constitutional money and only "Private Credit." The issues of redemption was recently tested in NC case Criminal Docket #1:08CR55-V Kathy Rayt Wahler, Edward William Wahler, and Lewis Vincent Huges... counts 1-20 25 27-32 for mail fraud: not guilty, Counts to defraud several creditors and the Federal Reserve by submitting (alleged) fictitious documents... etc... all charges were dropped 1:08CR55-RLV ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 05:31, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
* With all due respect, that is total baloney.
* Just a few examples: There are no U.S. Supreme Court cases that support the silly argument that that the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution was not ratified. HJR-192 (which is House Joint Resolution 192) does not state that all labor and property of the American people will be the backing for the Private Credit issued by the Private Federal Reserve Bank. Nothing in Article 1 section 10 of the U.S. Constitution (or in any state constitution) makes the current monetary system unconstitutional. And no court has ever ruled that the IRS is not a government agency (I know exactly the case that you are referring to, and the court made no such ruling).
* Sorry, but what you are describing is frivolous gibberish found all over the internet. None of this is new. Wikipedia has been targeted with this kind of nonsense off and on for years. This has already been covered in Wikipedia talk page discussions -- over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
* Here are the basic rules in Wikipedia: WP:NOR; WP:NPOV; WP:V. Famspear (talk) 06:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Financial Scheme Promoters
Sovereign Citizens are NOT financial scheme promoters. There is noting about financial fraud that goes with Sovereign Citizen ideology. Quite the opposite. There ARE financial schemers that especially prey on Sovereign Citizens, but this is true for every group of people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 13:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Some of the most visible "sovereign citizens" upon closer inspection turn out to be hucksters promoting their particular financial scheme, with kits and instructions they sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars which they pocket until jailed or otherwise stopped. This article enumerates several examples. -- Orange Mike | Talk 19:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
* Yes, one of my favorites is James Timothy Turner, who is mentioned in the article. Among other things, he was stupid enough to file a false claim in U.S. Bankruptcy Court. A smart robber would at least wear a mask to try to hide his or her identity. By openly filing a false claim in a federal court, a claim that was easily determined to be false, Turner actually handed the prosecutors the evidence needed to convict him. (He was convicted of other crimes as well.) As noted in the article, he is in federal prison now, and will be staying there for a long time. Famspear (talk) 19:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Validity of the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)
I find it peculiar that anyone would use this group as a source of quality information. They are far-left leaning and are ideologue<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 18:13, 26 June 2013 (UTC)s.
* In Wikipedia, sources are allowed to be "far-left leaning" or "far-right leaning," and they are allowed to be "ideologue." Wikipedia has a rule about using reliable sources. However, the mere fact that a particular source is extremely biased (for example, politically biased toward liberalism or conservatism) is a separate concept.
* Wikipedia also has a rule regarding Neutral Point of View, or "NPOV." However, NPOV does not mean that the source itself has to be "neutral" or "unbiased." NPOV means that Wikipedia must present the information from various sources (some of which may be strongly biased one way and others of which may be strongly biased in the opposite way) without Wikipedia itself taking sides. In simplified terms, this means (for example) that Wikipedia itself does not say that the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is "right" or that the SPLC is "wrong." Famspear (talk) 22:18, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* Example: MSNBC has a reputation for being strongly liberal, and Fox News has a reputation for being strongly conservative. However, despite the strong bias or alleged bias of these sources, both are considered reliable sources for purposes of Wikipedia. Famspear (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
* Further, a source that is not strongly biased might be considered to be not a reliable source. The lack of bias does not necessarily make a source reliable. Famspear (talk) 22:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
This is a really bad article
This article is terribly biased and the constant accusations of racism are a little much. I think it's fair to say that every political movement, even the established parties of the United States, have their fair share of racists but when writing about other movements little to no attention is given to them [racists] so why so much concentration on them in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 22:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
* Mostly because the practitioners of this particular cult (with one group of outliers) pretend that the non-white people recognized under the post-Civil War constitutional amendments are second-class citizens, unlike the white "sovereign citizens". -- Orange Mike | Talk 18:31, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
* Dear user at IP <IP_ADDRESS>: No, the article itself is not biased. And no, the article does not contain "constant accusations" of racism. You're over-stating your case. The people who adhere to the "sovereign citizen" ideas reported by the sources cited in the article are way, way, waaaayyy out on the fringe. As one court stated, these kinds of beliefs have no conceivable validity in American law. The article does report on what the reliable sources say. If the reliable sources say that some adherents of the so-called "sovereign citizen" philosophies have racist beliefs, the article itself does not become "biased" merely by reporting what the sources say. Neutral point of view does not mean absence of points of view.
* Further, the sources themselves are allowed to be biased. That might be what you are "picking up" on. Famspear (talk) 21:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
* By the way, in the article, there are very few references to racism. Mainly, the Richard McDonald material and the Greenstreet material might be considered to reflect evidence of some "racist" views by some adherents of the "sovereign citizen" nonsense. You completely over-stated your case. Famspear (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
* I went back and counted about 32 or 33 cases cited in the article -- counting Richard McDonald as a "case" (even though it's not a court case), I come up with only 3 instances where race could rationally be considered to have even been addressed -- namely in the Richard McDonald material, the Greenstreet material, and the Stoecklin material. That's three instances out of about 32 or 33 cases mentioned in the article. Famspear (talk) 22:24, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
one question
aren't driver's licences issued by states (not federal)? T-303 (talk) 02:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
* Yup. So are voter registrations, marriage licenses, etc. Call it an example of the internal contradictions of their beliefs. Ravensfire ( talk ) 02:41, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Nope, not a contradiction. Sovereign citizens do not believe in any of those forms of registration. Neither do I. Are your minds blown? Get off this page you haters, wtf are you doing here anyways? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 13:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Sovereign Citizen Movement
This is addressed to BethNaught. The article was changed because the information provided was not PROPERLY sourced. It was only sourced to specious articles that made claims about what Mr. Bundy might have said. Dispositive evidence needs to be provided - or leave the claims OUT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 14:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
* The part about using sovereign citizen language to beckon supporters is a direct quote from the Guardian - a reliable source. This source also supports the other bits you removed. In any case, the article never claimed that he explicitly calls himself a sovereign citizen. The article did claim that he called himself a sovereign citizen of Nevada, to which claim I have added a citation needed tag, and will try now to find a source.. BethNaught (talk) 15:30, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
* I have removed the word sovereign from "sovereign citizen of the State of Nevada" and added a supporting ref for the amended info from the Guardian. I believe that the content you objected to is now sufficiently supported by sources? BethNaught (talk) 15:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I removed...
I deleted,
"Many members of the sovereign citizen movement believe that the U.S. Government is illegitimate. JJ MacNab, who writes for Forbes about anti-government extremism, describes the sovereign citizen movement as consisting of individuals who believe that the County Sheriff is the most powerful law enforcement officer in the country, with authority superior to that of any federal agent, elected official, or local law-enforcement. "
because it is simply not true. The sovereign citizen movement has existed for long before the Cliven Bundy standoff, and Bundy does not speak for all sovereign citizens. I have NEVER heard a sovereign citizen claim, "The US Government is illegitimate," what they say is, "laws that conflict with the Constitution are illegitimate." In fact, that is TRUE. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and anything that conflicts with it is null and void, as per the Constitution..
I also deleted the part about the SPLC, for the same reason as the guy above said ^^^^^^^^. They are the ideological opposite of sovereign citizens, who claim that people who promote the 10th Amendment are "racists." They should have no business in defining sovereign citizens, just the same as racists should have no business defining or writing the wiki for the SPLC.
I tried editing this page multiple times, and have been subverted by the moderator every time. I got a message that told me to "explain why" I deleted something "in the talk section." Guess what? That's the fist thing I did, before I ever got that message. If my edits are continually deleted I will notify other Wikipedia mods. Whoever mods this page is a failure at allowing only reasonable, unbiased facts in this wiki. Do you let anyone else's enemies write their wikis? Why does the SPLC get a front and center spot at defining the Sovereign Citizen movement? Why do you assume they know better than the sovereign citizens themselves what a sovereign citizen is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 13:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Dear user at IP <IP_ADDRESS>: Wikipedia does not have moderators. Wikipedia does have administrators, but everyone is pretty much subject to the same rules in terms of editing articles.
* Further, the article is not written by "enemies" sovereign citizens. Let's get real.
* The SPLC is a reliable source. That does not necessarily mean that the people at the SPLC are "unbiased." Further -- and this may be difficult to understand at first -- a reliable source is not required to be unbiased. Neutral Point of View does not mean eliminating bias. Neutral Point of View means presenting reliable sources -- even biased sources -- in a way so that Wikipedia itself does not take a position that this viewpoint is correct or that viewpoint is wrong. In short, sources are allowed to be biased, and the bias can be presented in Wikipedia articles -- as long as the presentation itself is done with a Neutral Point of View, taking into consideration that fringe positions are not according equal weight with other positions. That's how any encyclopedia works (or at least should work).
* And no, the question is not whether the SPLC "knows better" than the "sovereign citizens" what a sovereign citizen "is."
* SPLC is just one of the sources in the article. People who espouse "sovereign citizen" viewpoints are being sent to prison on a regular basis. Do you know why? Because the whole sovereign citizen philosophy is based on theories that people are not subject to various laws to which those people are indeed subject When people commit crimes by breaking laws which they mistakenly believe they are not subject to, some of those people are going to get caught and sent to jail. That, to some significant degree, is why the article looks the way it looks. The material in the article is neutrally presented. The "problem" (if you will ) is not "bias" on the part of the SPLC or Wikipedia editors; it's the "sovereign citizens" themselves who keep doing stupid things, to themselves and to others. The article simply reflects the reality of what is going on, as reported by reliable sources. Famspear (talk) 22:30, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Oh, and by the way: You as a Wikipedia editor cannot remove material because you personally claim that the material is "false." Forbes material such the MacNab material that you wanted to delete is considered to be from a reliable source. Reliable sources may be right or wrong. But you as an editor cannot remove material just because you personally claim that the material is false or incorrect. Indeed, to allow such a thing would be to invite total chaos. As a Wikipedia editor, YOU are not a "source" for Wikipedia (neither am I or any other editor), and you are not a judge of the "truth" or "correctness" of material from a reliable source. You can add material from reliable sources, but you cannot delete material from reliable sources merely because you believe the material is incorrect. Famspear (talk) 22:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Another thing: Nothing in the article implies that the sovereign citizen movement started with Cliven Bundy, so I'm not sure what you were driving at. Indeed, this article existed long before anyone had ever heard of Cliven Bundy (who only came into the news this year). And part of the problem with many people who adhere to "sovereign citizen" nonsense beliefs is indeed that they do not understand that the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land -- and that they don't really understand the U.S. Constitution. Misunderstandings about the Tenth Amendment are examples. And yes, some "sovereign citizens" do falsely claim that the local county sheriff somehow is a higher authority than the federal government. The Wikipedia article, when read in its entirety, gives an overview of some typical "sovereign citizen" beliefs. Famspear (talk) 14:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
You can't tell me what to do. I am a free man and I am not subject to your Wikipedia laws!!!!11 <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 11:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
* Fortunately, we don't have laws here. Phew! Crisis averted! We do have various policies that need to be followed to allow groups of people to produce a high quality encyclopedia. Edits that don't follow those policies can and will be reverted. Ravensfire ( talk ) 13:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
* No, no laws here, but there are some Wikipedia guidelines, etc. Personally, I wish we had a Wikipedia super-secret double-naught spy decoder ring, cape, and secret handshake -- but I suppose it is not to be..... Famspear (talk) 19:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2014
I have tried numerous times to fix this article. It reads as if it was written by someone who hates the sovereign citizen movement. It is full of inaccuracies, and now it has been locked.
If you cannot accept the recent edits, at the very least you could defer to a previous edit, say, from a few years ago, before the more recent edits, which have been largely coming out of the Cliven Bundy standoff. Cliven Bundy was NOT a sovereign citizen. He had many beliefs which were in line with the movement, but he was not a sovereign citizen.
How about this edit, from 2007:
"The Sovereign Citizen Movement is a political movement in the United States which grew out of claims concerning government abuses of citizens' rights. Other names for "sovereign citizens" include "freemen" (see Montana Freemen) and "common law citizens".
This movement is based on theories that U.S. citizens are either "Fourteenth Amendment citizens" (who are subject to the federal and state laws and taxes) or "sovereign citizens", who are subject only to common law or "constitutional law" (or both), not to statutory law. Under these theories, sovereign citizens are exempt from any laws with which they do not agree. No court has ever upheld these arguments[1] (see Tax protester arguments). The Uniform Commercial Code plays an important part in these legal theories.
"Sovereign citizens" often avoid using zip codes, and refuse to hold social security cards or driver's licenses.
Some African-American groups have adopted Sovereign Citizen beliefs,[2] which sometimes include a distinction between the Corporation and the Government, which (under these theories) no longer operates in the traditional sense. "
Sovcitmov (talk) 13:57, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* If you want that material to be added you need to provide reliable sources that can be used as citations to support these statements. Cwobeel (talk) 14:57, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
* Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 16:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
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WIKI
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User:Agirlslife
DEAR WHOEVER IS READING THIS, THIS WEBSITE IS FOR BOYS AND GIRLS. YUP. UH................................... EVERY OTHER DAY OR SO I WILL POST STUFF ABOUT ME OR OTHER PEOPLE/THINGS. I...UH...GUESS THAT'S IT. ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PEACE FROM ♥AGIRLSLIFE♥
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WIKI
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While Rome Burns
While Rome Burns is a book collecting some of the 20th century American critic Alexander Woollcott's writings for the New Yorker and other magazines. The title is a reference to the popular legend that Nero played the fiddle while Rome burned. The book was published by Grosset & Dunlap in 1934. Vincent Starrett hailed it as one of the 52 "Best Loved Books of the Twentieth Century". Woollcott promoted the book on his radio show and his pointed critiques, quips, and asides gained enough of an audience to make it a bestseller. The New York Times reviewed it. The book includes accounts of his travels to Japan and Russia.
A sequel, Long, Long Ago, was published after Woollcott's death in 1943.
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WIKI
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Reproductive Surgery
Reproductive surgery encompasses a range of surgical procedures aimed at addressing fertility issues, correcting anatomical abnormalities, and enhancing the chances of conception for individuals and couples facing reproductive challenges.
These surgeries can be performed on both men and women and are tailored to address specific fertility obstacles, ranging from blocked fallopian tubes and endometriosis in women to varicocele and obstructions in the male reproductive tract.
Reproductive Surgery for Women
• Endometriosis Surgery: Laparoscopy can remove or destroy endometrial tissue growth outside the uterus, alleviating pain and enhancing fertility prospects.
• Myomectomy: The surgical removal of uterine fibroids (myomas) can improve fertility outcomes for women affected by fibroids that distort the uterine cavity or significantly impact uterine function.
• Hysteroscopic Surgery: This minimally invasive surgery is performed through the vagina and cervix to address intrauterine conditions such as polyps, fibroids, or septa that can affect fertility.
• Ovarian Surgery: Procedures to address ovarian cysts or to improve ovarian function can sometimes be necessary, although they are approached with caution due to potential impacts on ovarian reserve.
Reproductive Surgery for Men
• Testicular Sperm Aspiration (TESA) / Testicular Sperm Extraction (TESE): a procedure to collect sperms directly from the testes using one of the two methods – Aspiration (needle insertion) or Extraction (surgery).
Considerations & Risks
Reproductive surgeries, like all surgical interventions, carry risks such as infection, bleeding, and potential impacts on fertility. The decision to undergo surgery should be based on a comprehensive evaluation of the potential benefits and risks, considering factors like age, overall health, specific fertility issues, and future family planning goals.
Success Rates & Outcomes
Success rates for reproductive surgeries vary widely based on the type of procedure, the underlying fertility issue being addressed, and individual patient factors.
It is important for patients to have realistic expectations and understand that surgery may be one step in the fertility treatment journey, which could also include Assisted Reproductive Technologies (ART) like IVF.
Reproductive surgery offers vital options for addressing structural and functional fertility issues, potentially enabling couples to conceive naturally or improving the outcomes of ART treatments. A multidisciplinary approach involving reproductive endocrinologists, urologists, and surgeons specialised in fertility is essential for assessing the need for surgery, selecting the appropriate procedure, and managing post-operative care to optimise fertility outcomes.
Get in touch with our friendly team.
Dr Genia Rozen is a Melbourne gynaecologist and fertility specialist with 10+ years of experience dedicated to fertility medicine.
She holds a Masters of Reproductive Medicine (MRMED) degree and undertook three years of sub-specialising training in Fertility and Reproductive Medicine at the Royal Women’s Hospital in Melbourne. She is affiliated with Genea Fertility who are recognised leaders in advanced reproductive laboratory services.
Please get in touch if you have a question or wish to book an appointment.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Talk:Progressive rock/Archive 1
La Bourée?
"Jethro Tull recorded a version of La Bourée by Bach in which they turned the piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song" (in Ian Anderson's own words)."
First of all, it's spelled "bourrée." But secondly, "La Bourrée" just means "the bourrée," and the bourrée is just a Baroque dance form. Bach wrote tons of them. Someone who knows more about Jethro Tull than I do should find out which bourrée in particular they did the sleazy jazzy night-club arrangement of.
* Check sundaybaroque.org. I can't get the site to load at the moment, but they played the piece recently and even mentioned Jethro Tull having made it particularly well known. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Got it: It's the fifth movement (of 6) from Suite for Lute in e minor BWV 996 (BC L166). --Scottandrewhutchins
* Good research!!! :o) MarkCertif1ed 18:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Miscellaneous rewrites
I realize everyone has their own pet bands they want to talk about, but I had to add a line about the band Asia. I remember prog fans' huge anticipation of this mixing of King Crimson, Yes, and ELP, and having to listen to the album over and over because I simply could not believe my ears. Due to its visibility and stunning reorientation, Asia alone could represent the early 80's turnaround.
* Fair enough... but the fact that you wrote "suprised and disappointed" is POV writing... what, no one in the world was not disappointed by it? [[Image:Flag_of_Australia.svg|30px]] plattopustalk 16:01, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
* I knew, but it's a tough one. I assume there are subtle pov philosophy debates on wikipedia, so maybe someone will edit my words in a way that will capture in a few words a reasonable representation of who thought Asia was going to be what, and what they considered Asia to be once the group appeared. After all, even "much anticipated" is still pov, and I assume everyone acknowledges you're always caught within pov.
Hi, I wonder if it wouldn't be more wise to mention first what prog rock IS and only than mention elements that are common to prog rock but not necessery. If there are no objections, I'm going to change the phrasing a bit. -Marduk 18:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I removed the last paragraph from the article because he was too problematic in my view:
"Today, progressive rock continues to be created and admired by a solid core of enthusiasts, but seems to be paid little attention by the mainstream music press and receives virtually no radio airplay. The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did, and those innovations that are being made are usually ignored or derided by the commercial world at large, and by progressive rock enthusiasts themselves."
1. 'Today' is not encyclopedic.
2. "The genre can no longer convincingly claim to be progressing rock music at the rate it once did" - progressing rock? come on, that sounds awful.
3. I think it is enough to say that it's peak was in 70's, with decline in 80's and reincarnation in 90's, and that the article says. It seems to be enough to me. -Marduk 18:29, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
-
I edited this section a lot -
"Critics have often derided the genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way."
1) I don't see how the reputation prog-rock has as pompous and self-indulgent has anything to do with it being "difficult to define stylistically", and I really fail to see how anyone could think there was a connection there. The largely negative reputations of albums like Brain Salad Surgery and Tales Of Topographic Oceans and whatnot doesn't have much to do with them being difficult to define stylistically, because they aren't. I agree that as musical genre categories go, prog rock is one of the hardest to define boundaries for, but prog rock has a reputation as being pompous and self-indulgent because a lot of is pompous and self-indulgent. Defining stylistic genre boundaries is neither here nor there.
2) country and hip hop are not particularly "stylistically consistent" anyway. like zappa, radiohead etc being "prog" or not as mentioned in the article, there are a lot of artists where if you wished you could have (and people do have) long debates about whether or not they were definitely "country artists" (Songs Ohia, Will Oldham, etc) or "hip hop artists" (Boards of Canada, DJ Shadow, Portishead, etc).
I also changed "virtuosity" to the less loaded "skill", removed something about the intricate harmonies "requiring repeated listening to grasp" (which is arguable, and what does "grasp" mean in this context anyway?), and a couple other minor things. hope there are no problems.
--Jamieli 18:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The reason why I'm writing my opinion here are my claims to some doubtful statements, the way of wording and inaccuracy, encountering here and there. In this article I can hardly understand the statement that 'other bands took the genre in a more commercial direction' as well as the one following it, which states that 'these bands, including Renaissance, The Alan Parsons Project, Queen and Electric Light Orchestra, are sometimes classified as "progressive rock", "commercial rock", or "symphonic pop."' What was in in the author's mind when he/she mentioned the commercial interest of these bands? Did he/she got acquaitant with them? Or maybe he/she had the unique chance to penetrate into their's brains to find that sort of thinking? I just imagined someone of these guys telling his colleagues:' you know, there are plenty of ways of getting more money, let's turn our music to commercial direction. Agree? Good!' And I would like to turn your mind to recognizing that such terms as "commercial rock", "symphonic pop" and the like are not the special ones, but are often used by amateurs rather than by professional musicians and scholars. All this does also for decoding the styles of every of these bands.
* Absolutely right - I've removed the offending paragraphs. MarkCertif1ed 09:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
For example, does someone really intend to call Queen a pop (even 'symphonic') band? As far as I know, it's well-established a long ago, that Queen were (and still are) a rock band. It can be argued to what extent they were a progressive rock band (it's very difficult though, if one is going to remember that they wrote in every genre of rock and even pop, and disco), but there're no reason to describe them as a 'symphonic pop' - their instrumentation was neither 'pop' nor 'symphonic', it was only allusion - very powerful, indeed - with symphonic music.
* Not such a good example - Queen I, II and ANATO are, to my ears, pure Progressive Rock albums, and there is much that was proggy about them - but the "trouble" is that they were never "pure" Prog, stemming as they did from the Glam Rock "movement".
* Don't want to get into the endless debate, but Queen are/were one of the very few bands you could categorise however you liked and be right and wrong at the same time - they were all things to all people. /ends gushing fanboyism... :o) MarkCertif1ed 09:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The other my claim goes in the same direction, though it concerns the article on hard rock, to the use of words 'radio-friendly rock'. When we're saying 'hard rock' we're already recognizing its 'hard' nature as it is described in that article. That is the point. Nothing else. So, the general idea is that such terms as the ones I have just mentioned can be used in ordinary speech, but are inadmissible for use in the special research. IML-NT 18:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC) IML-NT, 4 July 2007
* Again, agreed - the article needs another "get tough" session. *Cracks knuckles* MarkCertif1ed 09:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Duplicate wikilinks
It's worth mentioning that the WP:MOS dictates that wikilinks should only appear on the first instance of a term in an article (as well as in captions, etc). I've removed a lot of unnecessary links, but if you find any more it'd be a good idea to remove them. plattopus (talk) 06:44, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
The most important feature of prog
In my opinion, #1 feature of progressive rock that differentiates it from other music genres is the harmony. Progressive harmony does not use traditional 5/7-tone scales, it rather uses the complete chromatic scale with no limitations. This is the key point. Music can not be treated as progressive if it is composed in major/minor/blues/rock/whatever-traditional key. I guess, this point would much purify and simplify the definition.
* This is very hard to quantify. Like most musical genres, prog is predominantly diatonic. There is a greater degree of exploration into augmented and diminished scales than in most music, but this is also true of jazz and 20th century classical music. There is a greater degree of chromaticism in the chord progressions than in vanilla rock, but I can point you to medieval music of which this is also true.
* I would very much disagree. I don't think there are any prog bands who solely use a chromatic scale. At best, perhaps a third of prog bands use chromatic scales from time to time. I don't think any reasonable definition of "progressive rock" would exclude Yes and early Genesis; the former abandoned traditional harmony on the first half of side 3 of Tales and Genesis never did.
* The # 1 feature of prog bands might arguably be that they modulate a lot. Yes rarely stays in one key for a whole piece. But you can still divide their pieces into sections, and those sections are almost always major or minor Western keys. Lawrence King 11:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
* The # 1 feature of prog bands might arguably be that they modulate a lot. Yes rarely stays in one key for a whole piece. But you can still divide their pieces into sections, and those sections are almost always major or minor Western keys. Lawrence King 11:01, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The #1 feature of Prog Rock is that there is no #1 feature, apart from a desire to be, or a perceprtion by their audience that the music is somehow "progressive" (whatever that means). :0)
I have performed in-depth Post-graduate level analysis on around 120 Progressive Rock albums over the last couple of years, and have come to the conclusion that Progressive Rock bands experiment with all of the basic parameters of music - which you could view as the defining feature in itself - but the one that stands out most is form.
To verify this conclusion through experience, if you listen to any individual Progressive Rock band that is generally accepted as such, the one linking factor is the expansion or conscious attempt at destruction of standard rock song form. This is as opposed to "jam" bands, or bands that claim to write "free-form" music, whose pieces generally display a lack of understanding of the concept of form rather than a conscious decision to fight against it or develop it. Such bands do not indicate any real level of composition, relying more on improvisation - which may be a fine line in some cases, e.g. Can, but to any reasonably competent musician, the difference is reasonably clear.
Another area of form that can be verified simply by listening, is the incorporation of formal elements from classical music in a significant and representative number of Progressive Rock groups. For example, this might be to base a piece of music on a classical piece - obvious example being ELP. This might also be to use classical-style harmonies to invoke a feeling of classical music, and even contrapuntal or leitmotif devices - an obvious example here being Gentle Giant.
There are some sites that go as far as to claim that Yes produced symphonic structures - but I have yet to verify this. The word "structure" may be viewed as synonymous with form, for the purposes of this discussion.
Agreement (or disagreement!)?
MarkCertif1ed 09:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
politics in progressive rock
I added the following line " Besides, as regards many early 1970's progressive rock bands (notably German ones) lyrics are very often concerned with politics (left-wing) and social issues." I see it's been removed, but yet I think it should be there, as the article in fact overlooks this very important aspect of progressive rock. Take such German prog bands as Eulenspygel, Floh de Cologne, Hanuman, Lied des Teufels, Coupla Prog, Electric Mud, Embryo, Hoelderlin, Necronomicon, Out of Focus, Profff. Wolf, or other European ones, such as Italian Jumbo, or famous English artists such as Henry Cow or Robert Wyatt. Many of the early 1970's German progressive rock bands were more or less directly related to the 1968 student movement. In fact, progressive rock was not just about dragons, fairy tales and princesses. I think one should not just focus on such maninstream bands as Yes or Genesis. Progressive rock was more than that. - Wolvin
* Not in the eyes of 99% of the Earth's population. Of the bands you mentioned there, only Henry Cow is what I would call a "notable" band, so the political views of those other artists barely warrant mention on an article that also includes such mainstream heavyweights as Yes and Genesis. --plattopus (talk) 17:40, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
''My personal opinion is that the political angle could be removed from the page. After all, even if some English prog bands were political, they were less explicitly political than their contemporaries in the folk scene, or even the psychedelic scene (Jefferson Airplane had more politics on one album than King Crimson and Yes had in their entire careers). Henry Cow was political but is hardly "mainstream" English prog.''
''Was Europe different? I wouldn't call Magma political in any comprehensible sense, and when PFM became political their music went downhill. However, I don't know the German bands you mention. So I reworded the paragraph in question to show that English bands' politics, if expressed at all, was done through their fiction. (See Bill Martin's book for an excellent analysis of why this sort of political critique is more valuable than straightforward Dylanesque politics.)''
''In fact, if I had to name the three most political English-speaking prog bands, they would probably be Henry Cow, Renaissance, and Rush. Guess what? These bands are Marxist, traditional English conservative, and Ayn Randist, respectively. Two out of three are on the "right"!''
''I vote to remove the reference to politics. At most, we need a page on German Progressive Rock bands, and then we could refer to the fact that prog bands wer usually not explicitly political and say "except for German prog ". How does that sound? Lawrence King 08:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)''
* Rush is not "Ayn Randist", nor are they right wing. Neil was influenced by her writing for a period of time, but is not correct to call Rush a right wing, "Randist" band. His use of her influence haunts them to do this day, but if you read anything he wrote post-1976 you can see that he is far from an Objectivist or Ayn Rand disciple.
* Neil Peart has described himself, both previously and more recently, as a libertarian, so they're not that far from Ayn Rand; not right-wing, but definitely not left-wing either. And I've never read an interview where they have stated that the influence "haunts them". --Joshua Boniface 01:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Well I think that if 99 % of the Earth's population might not have heard of Eulenspygel or Jumbo et al., it would be justified to claim that 99 % of them have not heard of "progressive rock" at all. So should we scrap the whole entry altogether? Where's the dividing line between what is known enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia and the rest? Is it enough to say "I don't know so it's not known"? Because a band was not a success in the States does not mean its non-existence. It looks like anything that's not English-speaking is obscure and should not be at least mentioned. I think it should. The other thing is whether the issue of politics should be left out. Well, it's an important issue and deserves a mention in the context of lyrics. Where these lyrics politically-oriented or not? Were I a novice wanting to consult an encyclopedia I would certainly want to find the answer to this question. Why is it justified to say that lyrics were about religion then? I don't know many outstanding prog bands that were religion-oriented. If ELP's Tarkus is against war, isn't it political or regarding social issues? I think that I mention a phenomenon that "did" exist and should not be obscured. At least as a note - I did not elaborate on that, did I? I think that adding an article on German prog is a good idea and as soon as I have some time I'll try to start one. However, I believe that at least a small mention, in the present form, should be left in the main article. - Wolvin
Okay, I'm fine with keeping the current version.
''I think Wikipedia articles sometimes end up with "a little of everything". The current article's list of "lyric themes" looks like a bunch of people tried to think of every topic that prog songs ever dealt with. So we have "science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness". Why not add supermarkets ("Selling England") and whales, too?''
''My opinion is that an article on a SUB-genre should focus on what makes the SUB-genre distinctive, so this article should focus on how prog rock differs from rock in general. And the fact is, that in the English-speaking world, the most distinctive thing about prog lyrics is they use a wider vocabulary and they much more often focus on fantasy, science fiction, and English romanticism. Songs about "war" and "love" are far more common in commercial rock than in prog! They certainly don't belong in this list. I agree with you that religion doesn't belong here -- I can think of one KC song, one ELP song, and a few very early Genesis songs that dealt with religion. And "madness"? I can think of two Pink Floyd albums; what else? (Sidepoint: I don't consider Floyd to be prog. They're psychedelic. People bought their albums because of the sound effects, not because of the key changes.)''
''If someday we have separate articles on German prog, Italian prog, etc., we can revisit this question. By then this article will be long enough that it will need to be broken up anyway!''
''Anyway, I'm ranting now, so I'll sign off. Lawrence King 09:30, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)''
Italian Progressive
I noticed that there are no references at all to the great Italian branch of progressive rock. I am not versed in the matter, but am almost sure that no article about progressive could be considered complete without references to the great Italian bands. There isn't any reference to fussion either, there should be. Just remember that at the very origin of both fussion and progressive, it is not possible to draw a perfect distinction between both kinds of music. --Paiconos 18:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
* I added a mention of the European prog scene, which is certainly very important both yesterday and today. If you visit Usenet you will see that modern prog fans in the UK and USA are often discovering the 1970's Italian and French bands!
* But the pages for PFM, Banco, and Le Orme are empty. Your turn!
* Lawrence King 09:18, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* Lawrence King 09:18, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
* I'm trying to find informnation on an Italian
* prog rock band from at least '66. predated
* King Crimson by a few years - the only other thing
* I know is that the singers first name in Vincenzo
* and had a #1 album in 1970 on the classical opera
* circuit.
Goblin deserves at least some mention on this page, even if it's not listed among the major bands.Scottandrewhutchins 15:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Scottandrewhutchins
* Not really, there are already lots of examples. The redundant examples should really be restricted (see comments by other users somewhere on this talk page in in html-comments in the article source). There's a list of progressive rock artists en bands where the band can and should be added. Regards --LimoWreck 17:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
* I haven't read the full article yet, but one group that was very popular among my 1970s prog friends was "Area" (who called themselves an "international pop group"). Others were "Banco Del Mutuo Socorsso" and "PFM." One German group that also made an impact in our universe was SFF (Schicke Fuhrs and Frohling).ZincOrbie 14:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Ever heard about Conception?? Khullah 03:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Hold on a minute!
Who added all the Mars Volta crap? They're an obscure band that don't deserve to be the most-mentioned group in the article.
* Perhaps not, but they definitely deserve a place somewhere... since they're currently the only progressive metal band who could be called "popular" in the mainstream.
* What? Tool appears to be enjoying a lot more publicity than Volta. They also have garnered significantly greater success in the way of airplay. And Dream Theater are becoming increasingly "popular" as well, their last album made the top 40.
* They are not all that obscure. In fact, they are the only progressive rock band on the radio/tv for quite some time.
* And who the hell switched Ween for Radiohead?
* Glad I'm not the only one who noticed it. Remove?
* I concur (if this is a democracy....) Lawrence King 19:11, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why was the image changed?
Just wondering why the first image was changed from a Yes concert photo to a Tull album? -- plattopusis this thing on? 17:38, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
* OK, it appears to be a JT fanboy making the changes (see his/her edit history, especially in the sandbox), so I'm going to revert it. -- plattopusis this thing on? 17:46, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about that image change... I'm new to Wikipedia, and was just experimenting around. -- Rantinghuman 16:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why no Mike Oldfield?
I guess it already got debated, but... why no mention of Mike Oldfield? -- 6 18:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
* If it already got debated it would be on this talk page... and it's not, so it probably hasn't. He deserves a mention somewhere, no doubt... probably just a case of noone actually taking the time to include him. [[Image:Flag_of_Australia.svg|30px]] plattopustalk 10:43, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
* I came to this discussion page to suggest the same thing. I'm listening to Tubular Bells at this very moment. Patrick Lucas 03:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Too many bands listed as examples
Recently there have been a whole lot of extra bands listed as examples. I think this is inappropriate, because this article is not intended as a list of prog bands. It is intended as a description of progressive rock.
For example, the following paragraph is absurd:
* Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include Journey to the Centre of the Earth by Rick Wakeman, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 and Hemispheres by Rush, The Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more recent Operation: Mindcrime by Queensrÿche, Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and Snow by Spock's Beard. The Mars Volta's albums "De-loused in the Comatorium" and "Frances the Mute" both follow storylines which are conveyed by both the music and the lyrics. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".
The point of this paragraph is that one feature that is common in prog is concept albums. This point is completely clear once the reader reads two examples. Why do we need 13 examples, including one that claims to not be an example after all?
I don't have a proposed solution. If Wikipedia had formal editors they could prune this down, but if I did that folks would take it as an attack on their favorite bands. Any suggestions? Lawrence King 07:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* Do what I did to the progressive metal article: remove all but the most important of examples, and create list of progressive rock artists. [[Image:Flag_of_Australia.svg|30px]] plattopustalk 08:48, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
* I just went ahead and yanked out a bunch of examples from the Characteristics section. I edit anonymously so there's no-one for people to get mad at :-). I tried to keep the most important examples but in some cases the decision process was admittedly pretty arbitrary. I also made a number of other changes, hopefully improvements. Feel free to discuss them further, but it's probably best not to add much stuff back in without discussing it here first.
* I kept all the bullet points that were there before in some form, but arguably some of them could be removed or consolidated (I did do the latter to a certain extent). More merciless editors than myself should feel free to chip in with (at least) suggestions.
I love the results! Lawrence King 05:27, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
* I've added/changed a lot since then. This has included some fairly merciless editing of other people's contributions (I've either nuked them or worked them in in ways their authors never intended [grin]; I think they only thing I left alone was when someone added Steve Howe to the list of famous soloists). Let me know what you think (and that applies to whoever is lurking too).
Break this page up into multiple pages?
...can someone please explain why in the section on progressive rock progressive metal groups are mentioned so much? In fact, to quote the article on progressive metal, "these bands are usually happy to be known as progressive, although the music bears very little resemblance to the original progressive rock form"... and yet it contradicts itself by mentioning the likes of Green Carnation and Dream Theater as examples of progressive rock bands that have made some long songs...
Also, the mars volta I don't think could be considered post-rock by any means, in fact, again, the page on themself doesn't mention post-rock so I think the mention of them being should be removed? (<IP_ADDRESS>)
* I agree. Muse isn't a post-rock band either.
* This page is sort of depressing to me, because every time we prune it, the stuff comes back. At least once a week someone feels it's necessary to add in their favorite bands.
* In my opinion, the facts are these: From about 1969 until the late 1970's, everyone agrees what is meant by "progressive rock". After this, there is a great dispute. Therefore this page should separate these out. The fact is, that the heirs of progressive rock clearly include the 1990's prog revival (Spock's Beard), and prog-metal, and groups like the modern King Crimson. But these groups are nothing like each other. They are different branches from a single tree: different genres entirely.
* Primus, for example, clearly are influenced by the 1980's Crimson. But if you say they are "influenced by progressive rock" that statement would be ambiguous.
* So how should the article be structured? I think ideally there should be separate articles for each post-1980 genre, and then this article should focus on pre-1980 prog. After all, the entire reason that any post-1980 band has claimed the "prog" title is because of similarites to 1970's prog bands. All of the "characteristics of prog" listed on this page were in 1970's prog (in varying quantities). In 1972 King Crimson radically changed their style and a new "characteristic" was added to prog; but Spock's Beard radically changed in 1998 they would have no longer been considered "progressive". In other words, the genre is fundamentally defined by the 1970's bands, even if you personally prefer other bands.
* But I don't believe for a moment that I can persuade everyone that this is a good change..... Lawrence King 08:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Me again (no usename), you have convinced me, obviously I am not objecting to the mentioning of progressive metal bands, but not in an article about progressive metal rather than progressive rock unless its in the context of music that has debateably been influenced by progressive rock. I just don't see the benefit to either progressive metal or progressive rock to have the former used wrongly in this article. To be honest simply deleting references to progressive metal bands would I think be sufficent and then a short piece at the end linking to other progressive styles. Waiting to see if anyone objects...
* Keep in mind that we should be using summary style. Just to throw something out there: what about having an article progressive music that explains all the different ways that term is used, with sub-articles with titles like progressive rock and progressive metal. The articles on individual genres should focus primarily in describing what the style is like (i.e. what makes progressive rock different from other kinds of rock and other kinds of progressive music) and then a separate article on the history of progressive rock that could explain all the little permutations and varieties over the years. Of course, that's a lot of work, but that's what I think you oughtta work towards. Tuf-Kat 20:44, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
* Oh, we already have progressive music. I thought it redirected to progressive rock. Still, there could be better interlinking and use of summary style among these progressive genre pages. I think it's clear that 80s and 90s progressive stuff is notable and should be covered in the appropriate article(s), so it should be made clear which article covers which topic. Plus, I think with an entire history of progressive rock article to play around with, there will be less pressure for this article to explain every last little variety of prog. Tuf-Kat 20:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
* That does sound like a good idea. And a lot of work.
* Here are the main divisions that I see. Is this unreasonable? Some of these already have pages, but these would all have to be referenced within some sort of index page. Or maybe a template?
* (1) Psychedelic music
* (2a) 1970's prog rock, main current (Crimson, Yes, ELP, etc.)
* (2b) 1970's prog rock, Canterbury bands (Camel, Caravan, etc.)
* (2c) 1970's prog rock, avant-garde and astringent bands (Henry Cow, etc.)
* (2d) 1970's prog rock, European bands -- or should these not be separated by nationality?
* (3) prog / jazz fusion (Mahavishnu Orchestra, Dixie Dregs)
* (4) prog pop (ELO, Alan Parsons, later Kansas, later Renaissance)
* (5a) 1980's post-prog bands (80's Crimson, Peter Gabriel)
* (5b) 1980's commercialization of prog (Genesis, Tull, Asia) -- is this the same as 4?
* (5c) 1980's prog revival (Marillion, etc.)
* (6) 1990's prog revival continued (Spock's Beard, etc.) -- is this in the same category as 5c?
* (7) progressive metal
* (8) modern bands that are arguably prog (Radiohead, etc.)
* [I retitled the current section because hopefully it will attract more attention that way.] Lawrence King 00:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* I don't think we need all that many articles. My advice is to keep it as simple as possible for as long as possible -- terms that are widely used with a clear meaning, like Canterbury Scene, should have an article; stuff like "1980s post-prog" probably doesn't need one. In other words, give progressive rock a tight focus, moving the chaff to history of progressive rock, letting that article grow until it gets really long or a particular section begins to overwhelm things, then make, as needed, articles like history of progressive rock: 1980s post-prog (since I doubt there is a whole lot to say about 80s post-prog beyond history and a few identifying characteristics -- that's not really a discrete genre in the same sense as the Canterbury Scene, I think, so it should be laid out as a part of "history" and not as a discrete genre in itself). I think a template is a great idea, as it can help keep things orderly and make it clear which article is on which precise topic.
* I don't suggest making any new articles at this time, except for a history of progressive rock, possibly along with e.g. French progressive rock (this is a potentially thorny issue, as the history of progressive rock must be neutral and not focus unduly on American and British stuff -- the hypothetical French progressive rock article is not a ghetto to avoid going into the subject on the main article; also note that there is a French rock article, and I am not sure if we need to make more of a distinction than that at this time, it might better to put all kinds of French rock in that article until it becomes unwieldy). I'm not sure if these rambling comments make much sense, but maybe some others will come along with other thoughts. Tuf-Kat 01:11, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
WAAAAY too many Wikilinks
There are lots of redundant links on this page and I see that far from cutting down on them, someone has been actively adding more. There are at least five links to Yes including two in the same paragraph, three to King Crimson again including two in the same paragraph, five to ELP, even two to Bach, which once again are in the same paragraph! There doesn't need to be more than one, maybe two apiece, and definitely not within a paragraph or two of each other. Could someone deal with this? If not I might do it in the next few days when I have more time. PurplePlatypus 21:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
* Done. Andy Mabbett 21:45, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Gentle Giant in intro?
I'm not too sure about adding GG to the intro. They are important, but I don't think they belong on the same list as the other seven bands there. Commercial success is a factor, and there they probably rank close to King Crimson but miles behind the other six, but I also think the other seven (especially Crimson) are all probably more influential. Seems to me there are other 70s bands that are at least as important as GG (Van der Graaf Generator? Mahavishnu Orchestra? PFM who, I'm horrified to say, don't even have an article!) - where do you draw the line? PurplePlatypus 07:34, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I actually didn't add them based on commercial success (while they were pretty successful). I think GG is a great example of one extreme of prog rock and how extreme it can be. As I said, I think they were quite influential in the genre (Ian Anderson's favorite band at the time and Jethro Tull shows how he was influenced). Obviously I'm biased because I love GG, but I believe they're one of the more notable prog rocks bands, if only for their eclecticism. --Comics 19:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
* Well, I had a pretty good idea what your view would be :-). What I'd really like, though, is to hear from a couple of others on this topic. Personally I just don't think they compare to the other seven in influence, even if they were themselves a key influence on one of those seven (and I don't know enough about either Tull or GG to really say - I'm more of a Yes, Floyd and Crimso guy). Think of the above query as a highly informal RfC (in the originally intended sense, not what RfC seems to have turned into).
* I should clarify that by mentioning commercial success, I wasn't trying to say that was the only reason you put them in; I was trying to say that wasn't the only reason I was suggesting removing them, a somewhat different point. Sorry if I was unclear about that. PurplePlatypus 19:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
* No, you're absolutely right. They don't have nearly the scope and influence of bands like Yes, Rush, Pink Floyd (all of which I love). Personally I think they're the extreme example of progressive rock and how they blended classical and conventional instruments and musical conventions. Arguably, they are the most prog of all the prog rock bands. I could go either way, though, don't get me wrong. I'll still be able to sleep at night if someone wants to revert my addition. :) --Comics 22:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
You'll never find a better reason to remove Gentle Giant of the list than your own preferences in prog rock. I'm a Crimson guy too, but I couldn't deny Gentle Giant's unbeatable progressive quality. As some people say in his section, they are probably the most "progressive" rock band, and that's reason enough to keep Gentle Giant in the list of "major acts" in history of progressive rock. As for the commercial factor, you can't only consider success in the US. Besides, they have been more influential than many people think. In a Dream Theater footage you can find on youtube, Dream Theater's Mike Portnoy tells how Jordan Rudess is largely influenced by ELP and Gentle Giant. This influence is not oblique at all (you don't have to analyze any song to find out): in his 2007 solo album called "The Road Home", he covers ELP's "Tarkus" and GG's "Just The Same". It seems "he couldn't help it". Moreover, other relatively young bands such as Echolyn and Spock's Beard are just more examples of GG's influence. Even The Mars Volta, as they have declared themselves, fit in the list. quinceps 20:51, 06 December 2006 (UTC)
Kansas
The last thing we need, obviously, is another person wondering why his or her favorite band isn't included. But Kansas is (as with all prog histories) relagated to one of the second-generation, mid-70s, almost irrelevant prog acts.
So here's my thoughts on more prominent inclusion:
1) Kansas started *recording* in 1971. The early songs were intensly progressive and bewlildered midwest audiences. They are absolutely a first generation prog band. (This is a change I already made to the history.) Kansas, which tours and records today, still plays one of the songs recorded in 1971 ("Belexes").
http://www.cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/protokaw.html
2) Kansas is one of the top-selling prog acts of all time, with over 30 million albums to date.
3) In...I think it was 1980...Kansas was the #1 concert attraction in the world.
4) "Dust in the Wind" is one of the most famous acoustic guitar songs in all of rock, not just progressive rock. Homer Simpson sang "Dust in the Wind." Bill and Ted did. Will Ferrell in Old School. The current Subaru ad campaign. I could fill the page...
5) I'd argue the most well-known prog song of all time is "Carry on, Wayward Son." Thoughts?
6) MTV had several Kansas videos in rotation. They were all punishingly awful.
I have never understood why the prog elite doesn't give Kansas props. But I'll tell you, all those other artists listed do.
Bill
PS: I agree on Gentle Giant - hugely influential. Certainly more so than Kansas.
* Bill, I'm not so sure I agree on all your points. I must say, to begin, that I'm not a big fan of Kansas and don't personally think they're actually especially prog if you compare to many of the other bands at the time. I would classify them more in the Classic Rock realm with maybe a few touches of prog here and there.
* Secondly, I don't think they were part of the first wave. All the most prominent names in prog. had their roots in the mid to late 60s, around the time The Beatles were calling it quits. The first prog albums were released in the last year of the 60s and first of the 70s. I'm thinking of the first King Crimson, Yes, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, etc. albums. Kansas only released its first album in its current incarnation in 1974, and they were sort of coming in late in the game, in many ways. The height of their popularity was much later, as well. --Comics 18:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
* Secondly, I don't think they were part of the first wave. All the most prominent names in prog. had their roots in the mid to late 60s, around the time The Beatles were calling it quits. The first prog albums were released in the last year of the 60s and first of the 70s. I'm thinking of the first King Crimson, Yes, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, etc. albums. Kansas only released its first album in its current incarnation in 1974, and they were sort of coming in late in the game, in many ways. The height of their popularity was much later, as well. --Comics 18:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
* Bill, I don't dispute that Kansas deserves a reasonably prominent mention; some of their early stuff is more prog than Comics seems to be giving it credit for, and they were certainly one of the genre's most commercially successful acts. However, I don't think they fit the first wave for pretty much the same reasons Comics just gave, and I certainly don't think they're as influential as the other bands in that section. I've reverted the change (along with an unrelated edit by someone else that I just don't think was very good), and will put in a bit of a compromise momentarily. PurplePlatypus 04:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
* No, I agree that some of their earlier stuff was more on the prog side, but this is not what they're known for. All of their successful material really doesn't fit into the prog category, IMO. Kansas does deserve a mention, though. Comics 04:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
* I'm actually with bill on Carry On, Wayward Son qualifying as prog - in fact, it's proggier than a lot of other prog bands' best known songs (ELP - Lucky Man, Floyd - Money [7/4 time notwithstanding] / ABitW2, Yes - Owner, almost every Rush or Genesis song the average person has heard of...). About the only other major prog band with as representative a song among the ones that actually get airplay is Yes, with Roundabout. And there are tons of less well-known album tracks that are clearly prog. These are not on obscure albums, they're on the same albums as Carry On and Dust. PurplePlatypus 06:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
* Yeah, that's a great song. I wouldn't say that Money is not a prog-ish song, though. It's definetly unconventional. Roundabout is probably the most popular true prog song ever. Lucky Man is not prog (though it's excellent). Comics 19:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
* I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your collective responses - this is my first experience with Wikipedia, and I am glad. To address the comments -- PurplePlatypus, in terms of influence, do you mean at the time, or over time? I agree that Kansas was not as influential to prog bands at the time. But for all the prog bands that came after, they have been hugely influential. Just ask any of the newer prog artists. Thank you for bringing up the songs other than Kansas's big hits. There are tons of very progressive songs on Kansas albums. They just weren't radio hits. A lot of people judge Kansas, but are not ulimately familiar with the material. -- Comics, I don't see how whether or not you like Kansas as having any bearing on this discussion. I can't stand Yes, but I have enormous respect for them. If you don't think the original Kansas was part of the first wave...well, perhaps I'm wrong. But I believe they are, as evidenced by the album recorded in 1971. If you haven't heard it, then what is the basis of your opinion? Is your definition of first-wave when a band was making music, or influencing other bands? Or fame? Outside of prog, no one has heard of King Crimson. Or ELP. And these days, the average person has not even heard of Yes. Which is a shame. But comparing the popularity of "Wayward Son" and "Roundabout" is...I dunno, man. I don't think anyone except a prog fan even remembers that song. Maybe I'm just showing my age. But "Wayward Son" is the only prog song to enter into the mainstream culture, and it still is, being used constantly to this day. It's even a popular ring tone on cell phones - I'm willing to bet the only prog tone. My biggest question for you, though, is what makes "Roundabout" proggier than "Wayward Son"? Please, be detailed!
* I was citing my opinion, just for the sake of the discussion we were having. It has no impact on the article itself. Unless you can prove that Kansas received any popular attention before the mid-70s, then I don't think you have much of an argument. Sure there were probably a ton of underground and lesser-known bands in the 60s and 70s playing prog-style music, but by first wave we're talking about bands with a huge imapact and significance on prog itself as well as influence on other bands which followed. In the Court of the Crimson King broke barriers and caught everyone's eye in the late 60s. Kansas didn't really appear on the map until a good amount of time later in a significant form (unless you can prove otherwise). Most articles barely even mention Kansas before their 1974 album. It was minor. I won't get into debating Roudabout vs. Wayward Son. It's a matter of opinion and of no relevance here. Also, please sign posts with ~ so that we know who you are. Comics 02:52, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
* This is my worst fears about Wikipedia realized. It's not so much an encyclopedia as a Star Trek convention where zealous fans argue over their favorite episodes. You didn't answer the points I raised. But that's because you don't have to. You'll just keep modding down any changes I make (or anyone else you don't agree with). Your stated metric for the greatness of a prog band is determined by...when they got popular? With whom? You? With the artists? If your metric is popular attention, then bands like ELP, King Crimson and Gentle Giant don't even belong here. And bands like Rush, Kansas and Yes which have outsold them a hundred times over are...the greatest prog bands? Please consider establishing an objective criteria for listing these bands in your history and stick to it - you know, one other than what you happen to think is cool for no particular reason. In writing these entries, you take on a responbility to the people who read them. Please take that responsibility more seriously. And if you're going to say something as astoundingly stupid as one song is "progier" than another, then be prepared to back that up with something other than, "Oh, well that's not important."
* Look, Wikipedia is not the place for personal debates on ideas. What we're discussing here is whether or not Kansas deserves to be mentionned in the first wave. I did not say that importance was determined in terms of popularity, I said that the groups which were a part of the so-called first wave were what influenced and really started the prog rock movement amongst fans. I think that Kansas was a minor player in this for the comparative reasons I have stated above. You mention that your worst fears about Wikipedia have been realized because of fanboys. You implied in your first message that you were essentially a firm supporter of Kansas which is why you were pushing for them to be recognized as part of the first wave. Furthermore, you claim that I did not address any of your points, but you also fail to address or acknowledge what I said in response to you. There was a reason why I didn't get into a debate of Roundabout vs. Wayward. You're obviously new to Wikipedia, but you have to understand that this is not the place for such debates as it matters not in the context of the article. I actually think Wayward son is a great song, as I noted, but I don't believe that it's especially proggy, and is more in line with classic rock style material. Just to quickly state my point so that you don't argue I'm coping out again, I based the "more proggy" comment based exactly on the criteria defining prog rock in this article. "Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings." Wayward Son is far more conventional in this area. "Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, including electronic instrumentation." There is some synth and piano in Wayward, but Wakeman takes all this a step further in Roundabout. Also, the pedals that Squire uses on his bass are pretty unique. "Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies." Anderson is a countertenor, to begin with. Also, his harmonies with Squire are often extremely unique in the way they're constructed. Wayward is more conventional, once again, with some standard backing vocals on the chorus. "Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives" again, Roundabout moreso. "Solo passages for virtually every instrument." There are several solos from varying instruments in Roundabout. Wayward does have a guitar solo and a shortish piano solo, though. "A coordination within the rhythm section of the band (typically consisting of the bassist and the drummer)" Well, Bruford/Squire are probably one of the best examples of countertempos in prog rock. Going completely against the rest of the band. Not so in Wayward. My argument is that Wayward has some prog elements, but I would suggest it's far more in line with classic rock. No doubt Kansas has some very prog material, but once again, they are not especially notable for it and sort were somewhat late in coming into the scene (other than the fact they were recording in 1971, which isn't really relevant. There were many bands recording that kind of music at the time, no doubt. Kansas should be put in the 2nd wave. --Comics 03:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
* I am concerned about the lack of meaningful, epistemological metrics here other than fandom. I remain convinced that your rationale for "important" prog bands is that if you don't already like it, then it's not good prog. Take your hilarious comparison of "Roundabout" to "Wayward Son". Your observations are detailed, dogmatic and demonstrate an astounding ignorance of the song you are denigrating. For example, "Wayward Son" has 3 guitar solos, not 1. And there's no piano solo. I can't fathom how you appointed yourself the ultimate master of progressive rock. Kansas was not especially notable for progressive rock? Wow. According to whom? Oh, right, according to you. Regardless, I will try to consider your opinions. After some thought, I will agree that Kansas should not be listed in the first wave. I also think it's important not position them as a result of it, though. Kerry Livgren was influenced by earlier bands like Procol Harum, not later ones like Yes. Bill Evans--<IP_ADDRESS> 04:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
It's blatantly untrue that Comics didn't use meaningful metrics, and it seems to me that the charge of substituting fandom for reasoned discussion is at least as applicable in the other direction. It also seems to me that you've accused Comics of using only fandom as a rationale, and admitted that he didn't, in virtually back to back sentences; you might want to give that a rethink. It's also simply not the case that he did anything that would reasonably be described as "denigrating" Carry On. Indeed, you seem to be sniping with very little provocation; nothing Comics has said strikes me as anywhere near as unreasonable as you've made it out to be, which is not to say I agree with all of it. PurplePlatypus 09:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is a short snyth solo at 3:05. At this point I'm going to walk away from this. You appear to be doing exactly what you claim is wrong with my comments. This is exactly why I did not want to get into this debate regarding Roundabout vs. Wayward. It doesn't result in meaningful discussion. You are being as much of a fanboy in regards to Wayward as I am with Roundabout, the difference is that I admit it. However, we were discussing the merits of having Kansas listed as a first wave band, which I disagree with for all the reasons I have mentionned. As a new user you appear to be slightly unfamiliar with how Wikipedia works and how consensus is achieved. I don't think I know everything about prog rock, but I was stating my irrelevant person opinion on two songs. At least we achieved consensus regarding the first wave, which is what really matters. Wikipedia is not a chat room. I thank PurplePlatypus for understanding what I was getting at. --Comics 15:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure why Kansas keeps being excluded. Rush's work is a lot popppier than Kansas, but it's allowed to remain. Next you're going to say Boston is an important prog band, but Kansas isn't.Scottandrewhutchins 15:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Scottandrewhutchins
It is a complete nonsense even to discuss whether a certain band should be included or excluded!
We can go to specialist Progressive Rock sites to explore the various bands of the genre - in an encyclopaedia article, we are concerned merely with defining what it is. There are a handful of well-known and slightly less well-known UK bands that are very widely recognised as initiating (and thus, defining) what Prog Rock is - and only those NEED to be mentioned at all.
Others should only be mentioned in connection with a specific and demonstrably important contribution to the genre IMHO.
MarkCertif1ed 09:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I just joined this discussion, but at the risk of sounding ethnocentric, I would like to add this: Regardless of what you think about the popularity of Kansas and regardless of your opinion of some of their weaker elements in the Pop realm, Kansas was the first (and arguably the only) American progressive rock band during the progressive era. That is what makes them worth mentioning, not how many hits they had or even how popular they were. Of course I've probably now opened the door to an argument to include the only prog band from Mozambique or something. Just mention the fact that they were American and leave it at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SolEnsLamb (talk • contribs) 03:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Cleanup
I just did another fairly large cleanup of the Characteristics section; a lot of stuff seems to have been added since I last checked it that detracted from, rather than added to it. Some of it was just more of the usual accumulation of mostly unnecessary examples - I expect that someone, who will quite possibly continue to be me, will need to do that every month or two until the end of time, but oh well.
But more egregiously, some of the contributors of these bits - I haven't checked but I assume it was more than one person - didn't seem to pay much attention to the context they were adding their comments to. For example, in two different cases people listed something as an "exception" to a trend it was actually very much a part of. Someone listed highly allegorical Rush songs as though they were exceptions to the allegorical trend (Pink Floyd's The Final Cut would have been a much better example), and someone said ELO was an exception to the trend of not using actual orchestras by calling them a "mini-orchestra" (a description that could apply to any of a dozen other bands mentioned on the page - hardly a unique feature of ELO, quite aside from its poor fit to the context!).
This is a wiki and anyone can contribute as much stuff as they like, but please, you best serve your readers and fellow contributors by making sure it fits the context you're adding it to (and that it isn't just restating something that's already in the article, another problem I saw a bit of). PurplePlatypus 11:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I noticed it when my friend was editing on my computer. I do think that there should be a variety of examples, but nothing overboard (I.E. listing half of Rush's catalogue when they only had a minor period of pure "Progressive Rock"). I also agree that Brain Salad Surgery is a solid example of the artistic movement in prog rock. Deckiller 23:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Tool?
Does Tool really belong in the same category as Genesis and Pink Floyd? A Perfect Circle, maybe--but Tool? I find that categorization hard to understand, especially in light of the Opiate EP. Their music is way too similar to metal. If anything, they would better qualify as Nu Metal, except for the lack of hip hop influence. But the heavy, rhythmic bass; the hard drums, the distorted guitar, the screaming, the loudness, the dark sound, the themes of abuse and disillusionment, and the fan base make them seem much more similar to Nu Metal than Progressive Rock.
* All it says is that there is debate on whether they belong in the category (near the beginning), and that they have cited King Crimson as an influence. Both seem fine to me, though granted, the latter might best be moved to the Influences section rather than where it is now. Neither reference states outright that they are prog, and in face the first rather goes out of its way not to. PurplePlatypus 22:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
* (And having said that - clearly Tool isn't much like Genesis or Floyd, but change your examples to King Crimson and Van der Graaf Generator and suddenly it's not so clear. Prog is a huge category that, as the article notes, doesn't have any universally present defining features and is routinely applied to bands that don't sound very much alike.) PurplePlatypus 22:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
hey hey what about the mars volta? they apply to almost all of the themes of prog rock except that theyre a modern band but theyre definately more prog than tool... just sayin is all
I'll defend Tool on this subject manner. Tool is more of a progressive rock band than many people give them credit for. Their sound is hidden under many of the things you discuss: the screaming, loudness, distorted guitar, etc... Though it's harder to find a progressive sound until their last album Lateralus, Aenima includes many progressive sounds. They have been categorized, much of the time, with bands in the nu-metal category, but... as Maynard has said about that, "I don't really see the connection. Because there is some intensity in some of our songs, I think these bands pick up the surface noise, and that's their influence." You should listen to Tool more and pick up on their sound. I know that Pink Floyd was considered very dark for their time... much like Tool. Their live shows definately add to the "progessive rock categorization," I mean... King Crimson even opened for them on tour, THE progressive rock band. willsy 7:38PM February 25, 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1vC8ubnkY
I would hardly call that prog. It sounds like their biggest influence outside heavy metal was Fine Young Cannibals. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 19:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Rick van der Linden dies January 22, 2006
Sad news from the Netherlands. This morning Rick van der Linden passed away at the age of 59 after battling the consequences of a massive stroke for two months. Rick was an influential member/arranger/composer and keyboardist of the Dutch progressive rock band Ekseption. Ekseption website: . AvB ÷ talk 13:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
European
The article describes european prog as influenced by jazz fusion while american prog as influenced by rhythm and blues. but jazz comes from the u.s. someone comment please Lue3378 02:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you're right. Classical music, European folklore music (Celtic, Slavic), etc. - That's the real "native" European influence on progressive rock. quinceps 19:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Not exclusively. It's dead easy to hear the influence of the UK pioneers (especially Genesis and Pink Floyd) in many early European (non-UK) Prog bands - e.g PFM's early albums are so clearly inspired by Genesis that discussion is almost unnecessary, and so many of the more psychedelic Krautrock bands virtually cover "Saucerful of Secrets" or "Set the Controls..." that it's beyond funny.
Jazz fusion was particularly influential on the "Canterbury" scene, of course - and it's evident in King Crimson and Genesis to a lesser extent. Psychedelia was as equally influential as rhythm and blues - early King Crimson are essentially a glorified hard/blues rock combo with a jazz influence, much like a psychedelic/garage band but with compositional structuring, and Pink Floyd were... Pink Floyd (both R&B and psychedlia combined, but again more tightly structured than a casual listen would belie).
I guess it depends on how European Prog is defined - can you be more specific?
MarkCertif1ed 13:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
21:13, 16 February 2006 <IP_ADDRESS> (→Reviews)
+ * Gagliarchives South Jersey's Finest Progressive Rock 15 Years Running. Would that URL belong into "Reviews"? If I understand that webpage correctly, that is some prog streaming site, maybe that would deserve a seperate heading? --BNutzer 21:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The Blood Brothers
I've listened to the Blood Brothers for a while in the past and I don't see a progressive sense in their music. Can someone inform me on why they're on the list, because their sound is more hardcore punk than anything. willsy 7:28PM, February 25, 2006
contemporary section needed
this article needs a section detailing contemporary prog bands. a few are listed under "influences"
Page cleanup
I'll copy/paste this note (made by User:PurplePlatypus as comment in the article source) here too, so it's also visible here:
Anyway, I think User:Hriped cleaned up the article well. There is room for quite a few notable examples as illustrations, but indeed, not every band needs to be added. The traditional, notable, "big" bands illustrate the points well enough. For people who really want to spam their favorite bands, that's not what wikipedia is for, or you might find some lists on wikipedia that list some artists or albums --LimoWreck 22:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
* I've begun to wonder if the best solution might be rewrite the characteristics so as to eliminate the prog rock band examples that follow each one. I am not saying get rid of all examples everywhere, but I think that the place for examples is in the history section or in the actual articles on the bands and albums themselves. The only helpful reasons for having the examples is to clarify or prove the characteristics. As for the latter point, if the characteristics are accurate, then that point that should be proven in the history to begin with.
* As for the point of examples somehow clarifying the characteristics, well, currently, the "Extremely wide dynamic range" characteristic and its explanation is succinct and unambiguous. It manages this quite well without citing any bands or pieces. Sure, we could add examples to it for the sake of having examples, but all that does is make the paragraph longer and invite a shopping list of every example a fan can think of.
* Also, since progressive rock characteristics are not mutually exclusive, authenticity lies in showing how prog bands exhibit many of the characteristics at once. I think that we could avoid definition bloat if we took that into account, by listing relevant characteristics when we write about the bands rather than mentioning bands when we are listing the characteristics. Moroever, I think it strengthens this article if an album (or band) article explains how the album (or band) shows prog rock characteristics X Y and Z, and then cites Progressive rock as the authority, instead of the current trend of using this article as a place to namedrop a band to "prove" that it is prog.
* Maybe I'm crazy to advocate for a clear, unadorned list of prog rock characteristics, but if I am, then thankfully the article on Schizophrenia is able to list each of its five symptoms without putting in 2-9 examples of each person's favorite schizoid man (or woman) after each one. ;-) --Hriped 05:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
* Hmm, well, the problem is -as with any musical genre-, you can't really give a strict definition of the genre. As you said progressive rock characteristics are not mutually exclusive, but not all characteristics will be found in most bands, or you might find characteristics in bands that traditionally aren't categorized as prog, or you might find some entirely different characteristic in some prog bands, etc....... So, as I see it, I think giving some examples of the "traditional" well-known prog-bands is the best we can do to clarify the examples ... These are the bands that influenced most other prog artist anyway, and when new artists show some characteristics, these are mostly based on those "traditional" examples. So maybe it's best to include some examples to give a generenal image of the prog.rock scene (as is done now) ? Of course the characteristics should be discussed in articles on the band itself, but removing those examples completely here might make the general picture too "general", too "abstract" ... The examples you left now actually are what made prog.rock what is today and has been the past decades, so as long as they're notable and limited in number, they are important in showing what prog.rock is. But that's just how i see the thing ;-) --LimoWreck 13:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Whoa! What kiddies are rewriting history!
All I can say is there is barely any mention of The Moody Blues! It was their producer who discovered King Crimson (real history, lads) and thus also McDonald and Giles (who also lack mention), and most later acts, god love them. Listen again to "In the Court of the Crimson King" closely. Hear the Moody Blues' influence. If you can't, then you haven't listened closely (not that you really need too, it's that obvious.) I know this article reeks of falsehoods when the grand-daddy of prog rock is considered a bit player! I lived through this stuff, kids. I know it. Fix it! It's no wonder wikipedia is a laughing stock of information.
Further: Mars Volta gets a mention? Listen closely. They have Led Zeppelin to thank for their sound, not the Blues or Crimson. Use your ears. This whole article is slip-shod.
* The Moody Blues first made big waves for "symphonic classicism"--in other words, classical arrangements that accompany rock, rather than rock that aspires to be classical. Around the start of prog, the MB's overt focus was on topics like transcendental meditation--similar to the Beatles and Beach Boys, who were also using elaborate-but-not-prog arrangements, at that time. As much as Crimson may have sounded like the MBs to some, the difference in approach and composition is as plain as "Cat Food" (too experimental for the MBs) and "Ride My See-Saw" (too straight-ahead rock for Crimso).
* It is true that the MBs, the Nice, etc., predate prog rock. Consequently, what needs to be fixed is the Symphonic rock article, which a.) misleadingly focuses on later prog rock bands rather than the innovators of symphonic rock, and b.) treats symphonic rock as an offshoot of prog rock, when c.) symphonic rock (bands + orchestral arrangements) actually predates prog rock. --Hriped 04:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
It is a little unfair to take bits and pieces from the Blues and Crimson, to say how different they are. These songs you mention were only parts of albums. They were never meant as singles. That is why both groups got very little radio time when I was growing up. Because both were album-oriented (and perhaps too experimental for radio). I want to say that I love both bands. Both deserve BIG kudos. Fans of one will be attracted to the other by virtue of their similarities, just as fans of, say, reggae, will be attracted to ska. Of course there are differences, otherwise I wouldn't be, or need to be, a fan of both.
I do see your point, and I have raised this in symphonic rock, where the Moody Blues aren't even mentioned! But that is my point. Both articles are giving little, to no credit, to the Moody Blues as a seminal band. Both from an empirical and chronological perspective, the Moody Blues influenced psychedelic, symphonic, AND progressive rock. (Back then, they were closer than you think. Almost synonymous. Musicologists and historians only began labelling and classifying these genres, in retrospect). This should be rectified to properly reflect this.
I admit to keeping the borders a bit blurry between symphonic and progressive rock, but that's how I, and many others (even TSO considers itself both prog and symphonic), grew up thinking of prog rock in the '60s and '70s: 1) Album-oriented, making some "progression" or journey through a, albeit loosely-weaved, story. 2) Musical complexity above and beyond other rock. Both the Blues and Crimson quack like ducks, and certainly swim in the same pond. And both belong equally to these articles. I lived through this time, was an original fan of both groups, and no amount of historical revision is going to change what I experienced first-hand.
I do appreciate your perspective, and I thank you for responding to me. Just don't give the Moody Blues such short-shrift in this article, is all I'm asking. It's not much. They're too important, historically, for that.
Oh, and I DO know my cat food. I have some connoisseurs at home. :) Be well.
No offense to fans, but note that The Moody Blues are not so much as mentioned in The Billboard Guide to Progressive Music, and the Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock says "very few would say that their music is progressive in the sense of Yes or Genesis." Gekritzl 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Nevertheless, I hardly think that Billboard qualifies as an authority on Prog Rock (Progressive Music is something else, and the Moodies were certainly progressive, beyond any doubt). The GEPR is incorrect - for the time, their music was easily as progressive as either Yes or Genesis. Listen to what the Moodies were doing in 1969 and compare it to what those other luminaries were doing. That's gotta make you think! MarkCertif1ed 12:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Punk vs Progressive
This article says that punk music of the 70s led to progressive's downfall. Is there any proof for this, any verifiable written source, or is this people passing on popular opinion today? From what I understand, punk remained an underground phenomenon for a long time, and progressive acts were still successful into the 80s. I don't know if this is good as a source, but this is what makes me wonder: an interview on the Mark Prindle review page: http://www.markprindle.com/unterberger-i.htm (It's the answer to the second question.) I would appreciate any info about this.
* Please sign your posts on talk pages per Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
* The idea that punk destroyed prog is indeed a popular myth. Nothing destroyed prog. Prog just evolved into something different. Actually it evolved into a lot of different things.
* The prog acts of the late 70’s and early 80’s were doing just what prog acts had always done. They were gathering influences from all the other music around them and incorporating it into their own music to keep prog ever progressive and new. But when prog bands started incorporating elements of punk and new wave, prog evolved to such a point that there was a division among prog fans.
* Some prog fans could not adjust to the new era of more mechanical, futuristic progressive rock that was being played on progressive rock stations. Hence the myth that punk or other forms of music killed prog. If anything, these things sustained prog and took it to its next phase. But those who wanted a return to the more organic sound of early prog split off from the main progressive movement. Thus you had the main progressive movement, represented by progressive radio stations, and a certain faction of fans who were all about making prog into a stationary genre for bands like Marillion and Pendragon.
* The actual progressive rock movement may still be very much alive and still evolving in the underground of today’s music, but you would never recognize it if you heard it. While the genre of prog, which is a different musical theory, never got killed. Rather it got born in rebellion against punk and new wave influences in an attempt to preserve the old sounds.
* I know this from actually being there and witnessing the evolution and split. Unfortunately, you can’t sight what you heard on the radio nearly 30 years ago as a reference. While you can sight an infinite number of prog articles written by people who either weren’t there or didn’t know jack about prog, since it was never popular with the mainstream press. Thus most of the articles that exist perpetuate these myths, and under Wikipedia’s rules I don’t know what you can do about it.
* It would be nice if you could sight the music itself as a reference. Good albums to try would be Split Enz “Time and Tide” 1982, King Crimson's "Discipline" 1981, Flash & The Pan’s “Lights in the Night” 1980, Godley & Crème’s “L” 1978 and even The Tubes self-titled album from 1975 to see that prog was absorbing the surrounding music and evolving into something that sounded nothing like classic era Genesis or Yes.
* The music itself speaks volumes about what actually happened back then. But that’s a bit beyond the ability of a written encyclopedia. It would have to be demonstrated on an external site and linked to the article. Perri Rhoades 22:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
* Rewrote this section as its was just wrong. Punk did not destroy prog, prog was more sucessful then ever, taking album sales and tours, during the punk period and also the influence of prog on new wave bands (we constantly here about how prog bands like Rush absorbed new wave influences but what about the other way around?) shows prog survived better than punk, the article I reffed backs this up. I removed the Martin Smith quote because, well who is he? Is it the bass player from ELO? If it is so what? It could be used to show the misinterpertation of the suituation that is constantly trotted out I guess. Prog progressed, punk didn't although some punks did. Punk's not dead? Yes it is and prog is alive and kicking 30 years after the obituaries were written--KaptKos 08:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
* It's not about who killed who. Prog isn't dead, put Punk rock's not dead at all too. It's about the genres that get attention in the media, on tv and/or radio, and by the general public. Prog had it's best days during the 70s... They did have massive following next decades, but they weren't the dominating genre... Punk still exists, prog rock does, metal exists; but they don't shape the musical landscape nowadays. Stop thinking black/white, genre xx vs genre yy... --LimoWreck 20:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
* I think you're missing my point and my point is that media attention has absolutly nothing to do with it its what the music listening public pay attention to that counts, the media started the misconception that punk killed prog and the music listening public ignored them in their millions and still bought prog records and went to prog gigs and the vast, and I mean vast, majority of the music listening public didn't buy punk records or goto punk gigs (they didn't buy or see prog either (Disco anyone?) but thats beside the point). But despite this this misconception is still, to this day, trotted out like its recieved wisdom, as in this article until now, and its just plane wrong as evidenced by the contined development of prog (Mars Volta ,Radiohead,Muse,Dream Theatre,Sigur Rós,Tool and on and on) compared with punk (Greenday?) And metal dosn't shape the musical landscape? Metallica are one of the biggest bands on the planet and have been for the last 15 years, I think metal shapes the musical landscape as much as any other genre. The black and white view was the one I removed from the article and backed up my take on things with references which I might add this article is, otherwise, completely lacking in--KaptKos 09:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
* Indeed, you're missing the point completely, nice WP:POV --LimoWreck 17:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
* Don't be glib, what point exactly am I missing? How is it POV to remove unsourced material and replace it with sourced detail? Or are you talking about my comments above which are an explaination of my changes not justification, which is the source? --KaptKos 06:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
* Don't confuse sources with POV/NPOV. It's not because this source says something, it is NPOV and can be added to the relevant article... --LimoWreck 17:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
But of course you can't be accused of this after your last edit? The source I used uses emperical evidence, album sales, the web cite you are using is pure POV, (no need for boldface). So critical opinion in England determines which genre is at the forefront of rock? Hmm, didn't realise its so, how can I say it? Black and white? --KaptKos 21:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Bold sentences
I removed bold sentences from the characteristics section, according to Manual of Style, as it should be reserved, within the article text, only of sub-entries (i.e., in a city article, relevant monuments which have no separate entries; names of characters in a comic book series, etc.). Attilios
Rewrite
Strange rewrite... The original section wasn't that bad; some changes seemed OK, but some statements seemed overdone, which off course results in their removal... Maybe try a less radical rewrite ? --LimoWreck 23:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
* Well, my idea was just to rewrite the info that was already there so that it read better. I didn’t venture to take out anything, even though I knew it was a bit much. Apparently by making it more clear what was being said some things promptly got zapped. And I heartily approve. I like the zapped version. Now if only someone would look at the "Characteristics of progressive rock" section and give it a good culling down to Wikipedia standards. Perri Rhoades 00:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
* that's sometimes the problem when rewriting for better readability... we tend to state things a bit too clear, so they're a bit exagerated ;-) --LimoWreck 08:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't Forget about Queen
With songs like Bohemian Rhapsody and March of the Black Queen, these guys hae also made a mark in the genre with their own creative style. I had to add their name into one of the lists present in the article I hope no one doesn't mind. <IP_ADDRESS> 13:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
If they're not going to accept Kansas on the main list, they're certainly not going to accept Queen. Scottandrewhutchins 15:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)Scottandrewhutchins
Queen is not a traditional prog rock band, add them in the seperate article List of progressive rock musicians if you like; however, this short list is limited to the few traditional prog rock names. This article is already bloated by redundant irrelevant names --LimoWreck 15:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok thats fine by me but you don't have to give me a warning about vandelism since I said what I did on here and its only one word. <IP_ADDRESS> 21:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
* sorry about that, I saw this talk page too late... lots of people try to spam their favorite bands in different music related articles, both well-known bands as hobby bands; so those were a natural reaction (one gets really tired by it sometimes)... I'll remove those warnings ;-) --LimoWreck 23:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Queen produced some Progressive Rock by any definition - at least 3 albums of it by my reckoning - but they are not famous for being a Progressive Rock outfit, and 3 albums is a tiny part of their output. They are hardly representitive of the genre. ProgArchives lists them as "Prog-Related", and that will do nicely. You can go there to explore their back catalog, and any number of Queen sites to get a flavour of how they are perceived more generally. This article needs lists like it needs a section on Mariah Carey. MarkCertif1ed 13:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
* I must say that I have a major problem with Queen being mentionned on the same line than Genesis and King Crimson as examples of 1970's prog rock bands. I propose that it is removed. --Childhood's End 13:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
When did ProgRock Begin?
I would argue for the inclusion of The Nice as an early band in the progrock genre. Then there is Camel, and how many others have escaped mention? What about MagnaCarta? William R. Buckley 20:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
* Keith Emerson was a member of The Nice, their style is typical progrock, what are your doubts about? --Doktor Who 13:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
* I did not express any doubts. I expressed an expectation. I was listening to The Nice in the mid-1970s (i.e. 1975), and well know that their music is typical of progrock. So, why are then not listed among the groups that define the genre? The fourth paragraph of the article mentions Jethro Tull, etc, as being genre-defining groups, and these came to be long after The Nice were no longer together. Neither is MagnaCarta mentioned, though they originated in the mid-1960s. My point is that progrock started well before 1970. William R. Buckley 15:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Some of the Blues Magoos' pieces like "Pipe Dream" and "Love Seems Doomed" (both 1967) are stellar examples of proto-prog: frantic tempo changes, quirky vocals and quasi-classical phrasing in places. The lyrical content is more in tune with the psychedelia of the day, but the songs themselves would prick up the ears of many a prog fan. I don't think they could be included as an early prog rock band, but some of their material may merit that designation. Twalls 20:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Prog Rock evolved out of the various popular music scenes of the mid-late 1960s - it's evident in the music.
The roll-call is too long to list in its entirity, but the Byrds, the Beatles, the Doors, the Nice, the Pink Floyd and the Moody Blues are all key players in its development. Although none produced bona-fide Prog Rock albums at the time, all laid down some of the foundations.
You'd need an article to explain this properly... :0)
MarkCertif1ed 09:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
<IP_ADDRESS> 08:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
* I agree that this needs a separate article to do it justice. The origins of 'progressive' are very hazy indeed - I would argue that you could go back to the huge success of Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" single in the early 60s; as a 'difficult' piece in 5/4 time, it was nevertheless very popular with the listening public. I would also suggest that the boundaries between 'psychedelia' and 'progressive' are not at all clear-cut. For example, Procol Harum's "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" is usually held up as defining the psychedelic era, and yet look at it more closely: it's keyboard driven, it borrows from classical sources, its lyrics are impenetrable and open to wide range of interpretations; in all these senses, it conforms more closely to what later became defined as 'prog'. And then of course, we cannot forget The Beatles, who almost single-handedly 'progressed' pop music into rock, and in very experimental ways ("Tomorrow Never Knows", "Eleanor Rigby", "A Day In The Life", "I Am The Walrus", "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" - each of which could be argued kicked off an entire sub-genre of prog in later years). The 1960s and early 1970s were a time of constant evolution and progression in rock music, when different fusions were being tried; some were successful and survived (e.g. what became 'prog', 'metal'), others fell by the wayside, for example the attempted fusion between rock and classical music in the late 1960s. All that can be said is that there is no particular and recognisable date, event, or band, that defines the origin of 'prog rock'.
Ambient noise
In the following sentence:
* The Mars Volta make heavy use of ambient noise on their album Frances the Mute.
ambient noise redirects to ambient noise level. So, can we fix this without starting an edit war? There are a few articles relevant to background music, noise, ambient music and so on, let's discuss which is the most appropriate.--Doktor Who 14:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Guidelines for inclusivity
I recently discovered the genre of Prog Rock though I have been a prog rock person for about 30 years. I find it very difficult to know how to include or reject an artist from this cathegory. I could find even artists like Neil Young included with some of his pieces. Could someone name a single band or two who epitomizes this genre? Would it be someone like Pink Floyd or King Crimson and so that others would be measured by how much they depart from their model, similar to how one pomeranian differs from the ideal at a dog show? Progress is such a subjective word and genres are a kind of fixed classification; it is almost an oxymoron. It sort of makes the music to the moniker a moving target, yet I know what you mean. My current bitter sweet affection is toward Porcupine tree as well as unearthing Robert Fripp. There is something about this music that differentiates people. Some people vibrate to the surreal while others can only stand on simple reality. IAMIS 01:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
* Well, imho, we need music genres and styles in order to use less words when we are dealing with and describing such huge numbers of musical works and musical forms; we need words to say that the artist x is similar to artist y, that guitarist a sounds different from guitarist b, and so on; such words are meant to inform-educate-teach, they are not meant to pigeonhole for snobism or hate. I would argue that the term subgenre almost means nothing, we just need a little number of words related to genres and a larger number of words to describe styles, techniques and feelings.--Doktor Who 14:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I am in agreement with using genres. It is in the concept of a genre being "progressive" that confuses me. Can it progress or evolve to where it no longer resembles what it once was? Is it then split? Or maybe there could be a better descriptive to fix the style in place. There must be something else it has in common. If not then maybe it is only possessing an illusion of being progressive. In some ways "surreal rock" could fit as to me much of it is to ordinary rock as a Salvador Dali painting is to a still life painting.
* We're not here to invent new terminology (see numerous Wikipedia policies, in particular WP:NAME, WP:V and WP:NOR). As the article itself notes, "Progressive rock" is the established name for a certain more or less well-defined genre of music whether or not one thinks the term "progressive" is strictly accurate. There is no question in my mind it is the correct name for this article; calling it anything else would go against both the letter and spirit of at least one of the above policies.
* As to whether it can "progress" to the point where it is no longer recognizable, again, the article already notes that this is both possible in theory and may have in fact happened in practice (for example, to King Crimson). PurplePlatypus 05:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It was fashionable to label music as progressive - Progressive Blues compliations were 10 a penny. Progressive Jazz had come and gone in the late 1940s-early 1950s. It was only a matter of time before Progressive Rock came into being. As for how it progresses (or doesn't!) in a literal sense, that's all in the music - as I've tried to indicate through my revamp of the Typical Characteristics.
MarkCertif1ed 09:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The Characteristics section
I violently disagree with the restoration of the bloated monstrosity that was the old Characteristics section. Far from being "useless" or "not saying anything", the version I stripped it down to contains the same information with far less non-contributing, pointless verbiage, and the advantage of being able to actually find it. Most of the points made in the version that has just been restored are perfectly clear after a single sentence; the further elaboration and especially the bloated, fanwanky lists of examples contributes absolutely nothing.
Or such is my view, anyway. What do others think? What does all that extra verbiage actually add to the article that my version lacked? What important information that is worth all the extra length did I remove? I submit that the answers are "nothing" and "none", but if anyone sees a good reason to keep the old format, I am willing to give them a hearing. PurplePlatypus 20:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* I really agree that the reduced section is really unreadable. Is this an encyclopedia, or just a shortlist ? An article has to contain text, explaining things; it shouldn't be a mere summary of some things. This article doesn't clarify anything anymore; it doesn't give a good feel of the characteristics, nor doesn't it shows how each characteristic is more or less relevant in the genre. The redundant crap had been removed from the previous version, and that version really was worth reading and informative. --LimoWreck 21:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* Not disputing exactly, but merely asking for clarification - could you give a specific example of useful information in the long version but not in mine? Because it's the long version I find "unreadable". It's impossible to retain it, and I don't agree that the old version makes relative importance clearer (quite the opposite; there is a lot of pointless trivia in it). PurplePlatypus 21:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* Eg, the short version:
* Unusually intricate melodies and harmonies for popular music.
* Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes.
* long compositions? What's special about them. Are those 20min long monotonous dance tracks ? Show a few typical examples (not many) to give me an idea or directions
* Pieces made up of shorter parts that in some cases could be songs in their own right, similar to the use of movements in classical suites.
* some typical examples are nice, just explain it a little
* Use of unusual time signatures, rhythmic techniques, scales, or tunings.
* Virtuoso solos, often lengthy, and sometimes for instruments that are seldom spotlighted this way in other styles of music.
* An extremely wide dynamic range.
* what is this short phrase about?
* Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, and/or unusual vocal styles.
* what's so unusual? Flute is something remarkable indeed, and electronica and the relation with electronic music too
* Musique concrète, that is, the use of sound effects in compositions.
* Inclusion of classical pieces on albums.
* Highly literate and/or utterly opaque lyrics, which concern "serious" themes like war and religion far more often than typical pop themes such as sex and dancing.
* listing some of the topics is more clear than just mentioning it's serious. What are serious lyrics ? Are you going to lyrically compare them to Jimi Hendrix or punk bands later on, they seriosly protested against war, right ?
* Concept albums, sometimes also called "rock operas", in which a theme is explored throughout an entire album. Some such albums have an outright plot; most such storylines are either psychological dramas, or science fiction or fantasy tales.
* show me some archetypes
* No assumption that every piece must have lyrics at all; instrumentals are much more common than in other forms of rock or popular music.
* ''When people read about a genre in and encyclopedia, they want some explanations insteads of a criptical list; and some archetypical well-known examples to show them some directions... --LimoWreck 21:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* by the way, I appreciate the idea of trying to keep this article "under control"; but I really think this version of the article does try to bring some nuances, without containing too much baloney. It is essential however not to include new redundant examples of people adding their pet progrock band, as having more than two (sometimes try when trying to differentiate a little) is completely unnecessary indeed... --LimoWreck 21:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* Hello, I must tell that I am not entitled to talk here, becouse I never read such articles (music genres) from the beginning to the end, unless the article is very short. Sometimes I try, but suddenly a strong headache stops me. I believe that my humble duty is to come here from to time to time in order to check and fix inconsistencies or wrong info regarding physics of - technology for - electronics in music, as I did in analog synthesizer, but my favorite activity is to write about artists and their discographies. So, sometimes I think that this article and similar ones are too short, sometimes too long;
* in this case actually there are some rebundant or wrong info in that section, but I'm not so bold to come here and edit, not for now, sorry. If we are going to split in a separate article this section, I will be happy to give my aid. --Doktor Who 21:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* Ah, what is electronica mentioned above by LimoWreck? Do you mean electronics and relevant techniques applied in music?--Doktor Who 21:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Some responses to individual points made by Limowreck:
* Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes.
* long compositions? What's special about them. Are those 20min long monotonous dance tracks ? Show a few typical examples (not many) to give me an idea or directions
* Do the examples actually make it any clearer, though? Notice that the version you reverted to didn't actually contain any more information other than examples than mine - less, as a matter of fact. And the examples only help someone understand this point if someone is already familiar with them, in which case they don't need the article. Also, as far as "what's special about them", that's well covered in the other points, which pretty much rule out "20min long monotonous dance tracks". People are not going to read each individual bullet point in a vacuum. (Whereas they might very well read each lengthy paragraph in the previous version that way!)
* Pieces made up of shorter parts that in some cases could be songs in their own right, similar to the use of movements in classical suites.
* some typical examples are nice, just explain it a little
* What needs explaining? What about this isn't clear from the single sentence I've given? I'm not saying my word choices can't be improved upon (I'm very unhappy with some of them, as a matter of fact) but in this case the point seems to be totally clear without any further elaboration needed.
* An extremely wide dynamic range.
* what is this short phrase about?
* That's what the wikilink is for. If that isn't enough, one could always add a short explanatory note just like I did for the sound effects point. Like I said, I'm not saying every decision in my version was perfect, I'm just defending the general direction I took.
* Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, and/or unusual vocal styles.
* what's so unusual? Flute is something remarkable indeed, and electronica and the relation with electronic music too
* Actually, the electronica point has always bothered me, because I don't see that connection at all. Certainly I thought it recieved too much emphasis in the previous version of the article. Having said that, I agree that mentioning the flute specifically might strengthen this point, along with a similar summary, if it can be done in just a few words, of Gentle Giant's approach to vocals. (Note that I was the one who added both these points to the previous version of the article! You don't need to tell me they're significant.)
* Concept albums, sometimes also called "rock operas", in which a theme is explored throughout an entire album. Some such albums have an outright plot; most such storylines are either psychological dramas, or science fiction or fantasy tales.
* show me some archetypes
* Yeah, this is one I actually kind of agree with. This could be split into a couple of slightly more detailed points and it would probably be to the article's benefit. (This is also the home of some of those word choices of mine that I didn't care for.)
* (Overall point about explanations and examples)
* I'm not certain the previous version had the explanations you're attributing to it, except of fairly trivial points that distract from, rather than contribute to, getting the "big picture". (I'm actually guilty of adding some of them, like the stuff about Larks Tongues and the AA suite.) Examples, yes - it still has far too many, in fact. And what exactly do the points about political commentary and exchanging members contribute? Despite having contributed a bit of text to both, I've never really liked either of them. At the very least, those should be removed or severerly cut back. PurplePlatypus 21:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
* Well, I sometimes have the feeling some points are too verbose, others may be too short. The problem with musical genres is you can't really summarize things in a few words... you can't summarize it in a short list... and indeed, those more extended characteristics will have simplifications and shortcomings too. Progrock may be a loose, wide genre... Besides the traditional Genesis, Crimson, Yes,... people may place krautrock, the RIO-movement, early electronic artists, Magma's Zeuhl, Ian Carr and Nucleus' jazz-fusion,... under the krautrock "umbrella". A little more extensive explanation may try to bring some nuances, or give an indication about the importance of the point or show some typical examples; it should avoid giving the impression that the genre can be strictly definied as a number of well-defined typical characterstics. Instead of just a short summarization, many people like some "examples" of illustrations with an encyclopedia article, and some occasional trivia. The "political song" section in the article seems strange too, but well, as long as it was in such a short form ;-) It is a difficult exercise indeed to find a balance between clarity, avoid bloat and more extensive phrasing and clarification... I have seen versions of musical (sub)genre articles (mostly in another language wikipedia) that were merely an short introduction and a list of characteristics and bands; and to be honest, I didn't really "feel" what the genre was about by just seeing anything reduced to a theoretical general list ;-)--LimoWreck 22:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The Characteristics section can have meaningful examples without being verbose. One-line 'characteristics' may very well be clear, but examples make them tangible - a key difference. The ones there are good, but several can be chopped in the interest of readability and the language can be streamlined in each. Twalls 22:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Limo, but one thing I think we can admit is that prog rock is a genre that naturally lends itself to verbosity and overcomplexity. :) Twalls
* Even on talk pages ;-) Well, I think your "streamlining" was +/- OK. Something PurplePlatypus might hopefully like too. At least some of the more redundant examples are removed, but some typical "illustrations" are left. Regards --LimoWreck 02:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Good points. Yes, it could stand some more competent and thorough streamlining. I didn't fully understand the point about the use of orchestras - the original author seemed to be saying that it was rare for prog rockers to use orchestras, so I think that might qualify as a negative attribute - making itself unnecesary. Tot straks, Twalls 03:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
* The orchestra/choir stuff was originally added by me, replacing something that was in the article even earlier that implied that they were common, which certainly wasn't true (at least in the 70s). I probably replaced / elaborated it rather than simply deleting it to minimize the number of people I'd piss off, rather than because I generally thought it belonged in the article. (I've gotten BOLDer since then, as the events of this afternoon illustrate :-). Feel free to zap it. PurplePlatypus 04:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
* Thanks for the clarification on the history. It's not a bad point. We may just want to move it down to the end or zap it and work it in somewhere else. In contrast, many non-Prog classic rock acts and artists during the "Baroque pop" era (Left banke, Merry go Round etc) actually did/do use choirs/orchestras in places. Twalls 20:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Links
Why a link to French progressive rock has been removed and a link to Italian prog can stay here?--Doktor Who 13:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
* At first glance:
* the Italian prog site is dedicated to the italian progressive music of the 70's , a specific phenomen which is discussed in the article: The prog rock scene in italy: italian language, italian bands.
* AmarokProg, in french, is just another general progrock site, Tout sur le Rock Progressif. Nothing that special, just a collection of the wellkown international bands. There already are way too may progrock review sites linked by the way --LimoWreck 14:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
* I don't have the time to check again right now, but I am sure that on a site named The Gibraltar encyclopedia of progressive rock as well as on progarchives.com you can easily find some further interesting groups belonging to European and also American (not US) regional scenes that don't seem to be mentioned here.--Doktor Who 17:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
* GEPR has indeed lots of them, and is generally seen as one of the biggest references, yes. That's why the link is at the bottom of the article ;-) --LimoWreck 17:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Pink Floyd?
Is it really undisputed that Pink Floyd is a Prog Rock band? Shouldn't they be along with Frank Zappa and The Moody Blues as a band that there is some controversy about? Many prog fans reject them altogether as a prog band because of their lack of virtuosity in comparison to most other bands that are characterized as progressive rock. Does anyone agree with me?
* doesn't matter; WP isn't a vehicle for spreading personal opinions. They are frequently and traditionally qualified as prog band, so they're included here as well. --LimoWreck 17:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
* The Moody Blues were never regarded as prog-rock because they were too middle-of-the-road -- 1970s teenagers could discover that their parents liked them, so they were definitely uncool. Frank Zappa isn't prog-rock, because of the central, bitter humour that consumes much of his work. Prog-rock was always earnest, or so it seemed to its teenage followers. FZ didn't seem earnest. Arguably 'Hot Rats' is prog-rock, but an artist cannot be considered prog if he released 40+ other albums that weren't prog-rock. As for virtuosity, Pink Floyd were just as skilled as most of Yes and King Crimson, possibly excepting Howe and Wakeman. Personally, I don't regard actual virtuosity as a qualification for prog-rock; so long as the musician seemed to his audience to have high aspirations and to be capable of playing whatever he wanted, that was good enough for us fans! Gavin Wilson 20:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
* There's no central, bitter humor in ELP? I beg to differ. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand the "humour" thing about Zappa. Quite a musician, his tongue is almost always in his cheek. For what it's worth, note what Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock says: "There's little point in denying that Zappa is progressive: from the outset his albums transcended the norms of music, and at the same time made fun of them too." Gekritzl 00:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I could throw in that I am, too, uncertain that Pink Floyd was a truly progressive rock band (psychedelic, perhaps), but as another editor here noted, they're widely considered progressive so I guess WP must reflect that rather than our personal opinions. --Childhood's End 18:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Psychedelic? - only early in their history. Their first few albums are definitely psychedelic and not Prog, but they went Prog after Sid Barret left. They were Prog during their peak, certainly (in my opinion, of course). I agree that other bands such as King Crimson and Yes are more closely grouped together but PF still share many traits with them, such as instruments, experimentation, irregular time signatures, unconventional harmonies, drama, pretentiousness, ostentatiousness etc. They have/had, I would say, a slightly mellower and chilled-out style. Sort of watered down Prog. This made them a little more accessible to the mainstream than other Prog bands. So still prog, I would say.
However It is true that there are Die-hard Prog fans who don't include them in their album collection which is interesting given they're the biggest 'Prog' Band. Not sure that this means they should be omitted - a lot of dedicated followers of more diverse styles might often reject the more mainstream option.TheJoff 14:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Helium and Mary Timony?
How about it? Prog or not?
* Doens't matter. Not relevant --LimoWreck 16:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Groups that belong to the genre.
This subject is the place to list bands that should be listed.
I vote for the inclusion of Ozric Tentacles into the ProgRock article. While OT incorporates much from other genres, they clearly have a prog orientation. This comes out clearly in their (latest ?) release, "The Floors Too Far Away." William R. Buckley 18:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* You can add them to the list of prog bands page, but not here. They're not a well known or key band in the movement. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* I agree that many prog bands exist, and that it is probably a bad idea to include every example within the body of article text. My primary point is to provide an example demonstrating that prog is alive and well in 2006. William R. Buckley 10:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
* You're actually right that the article doesn't demonstrate that. The contemporary bands mentioned are mostly either prog-metal or only "influenced" by prog. Narssarssuaq 15:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
If you want lists of Prog Rock bands, go to a Prog Rock fansite like GEPR or ProgArchives :o)
MarkCertif1ed 13:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
All the talk about "complex song structures"
...needs to be more descriptive. The article glosses over what ultimately makes a progressive song progressive: linear songwriting (as opposed to verse-chorus, cyclical, narrative, etc). I mean, look at the word. Line. Straight. Moving in a straight line. From one part to another, no cycling back. Progressing from one part to the next. Simply saying the structures are "complex" quite frankly doesn't cut it. Ours18 06:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You're right. I don't think prog is necessarily "complex" in song structure. Especially in the cases in which the music tends to move in a straight line, the structure is not really complex: "A, B, C, D, etc..." Certainly, the structure has many themes quite different one from another, but the structure isn't likely to be solid, mainly because it doesn't have at least one idea which is somehow present during all the piece (listen to Focus's masterpiece "Eruption" and compare it in structure with Dvorak's "From The New World" Symphony). So prog rock's main features don't include complexity in structure. quinceps 21:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
* Agreed, it could be rephrased. If there is a better term somewhere out there. Narssarssuaq 20:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
This is important - I'm working on it... :o) MarkCertif1ed 09:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The use of sound effects in compositions, otherwise known as Musique concrète
Are we sure this is used significantly more in prog than in other music? Narssarssuaq 15:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
No - and sound effects aren't necessarily known as Musique concrète. The entire page is in need of a re-write by someone who knows a little bit about music.
Since I only know a little bit, I volunteer... :o)
MarkCertif1ed 13:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Focus
They don't mention dutch progressive rock band Focus at all. I'm talking about one of the few 70's rock bands still active in the 2000s (Focus 8 was released in 2003 and Focus 9, their last album has been released recently). Although this band wasn't as popular in North America as Pink Floyd, Yes or KC, there are Focus's works in the seventies, such as Eruption, Hocus Pocus, Sylvia and House of the King, Harem Scarem, etc. which are very important in the history of Prog Rock, because of their originality (like Jethro Tull, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc. the band was recognized for its unique sound). Thijs Van Leer's yodelling has not equal in rock, not to mention that Pierre Van Der Linden's style at drums was very influent.
I'm not giving further details because there's no room for lots of data concerning just one band in this article, but I'm just reminding you about this facts - I don't know exactly where we should put the information, though. Quinceps 06 December 2006 20:54 (UTC)
Snobby
The opening paragraphs of this article are incredibly snobby as they currently stand. Major rewriting is required if this article is ever to aspire to encylopedic standards. Sorry, just felt I had to say that... quercus robur 01:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* Could you point out more precisely what you dislike? I don't see a lot of problems, most of it seems NPOV. Narssarssuaq 01:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* I decided to actually edit out the bits I was unhappy with rather than just complaining about it, go back in the edit history a bit and you'll see what I meant, all that stuff about fans of progresive rock music being serious listeners who are a cut above people who listen to mere pop music!!! I should have just jumped in and edited boldly from the start rather than moaning and complaining on the talk page, but had been imbibing a few fine ales which no doubt affected my critical reasoning!!! quercus robur 09:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* I think it's much better - thanks! However, the sentence "Progressive rock acts often combine elements of jazz and classical music,folk and world music influences with rock formats." doesn't work quite well as a one-sentence abstract of what it's all about. Narssarssuaq 10:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* Oh dear.Its back to how it was, including stripping out requests for citations that I added. Well I'm not getting into an edit war over it, hence I'll stick a cleanup tag on, someone else can sort it out. quercus robur 21:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* Quercusrobur was right. Some bits are very snobby. It's unfair the fact that his/her edition somehow was "undid". There are some very popular bands classified as prog rock (e. g. Dream Theater, LTE, etc) which attracts a kind of audience not quite different from Commercial Pop & Rock fans. Yet we must consider that some progressive rock acts, such as Gentle Giant and KC's music actually may be appreciated by some serious listeners. quinceps 23:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
* Reverted back to quercus robur's version, as there seems to be some concensus in favour of that. Still, we should add a few (better) sentences on what prog really is about at the very top. Narssarssuaq 04:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Prog Rock is snobby - and why not ;o)
It has allusions to the highest forms of music, so there is bound to be some "snobiness" among its fans. That's not to say we're all snobs - it's just that many of us don't care if we have that label or not, since there is much in the music to be "snobbish" about!
MarkCertif1ed 09:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I added this phrase to the opening paragraph:
"As such, progressive rock can be seen as an approach to songwriting as well as a genre of its own."
I felt it would be neccesary to mention this in the opening paragraph, since it helps reinforce the idea that bands can be considered "progressive" while playing music in other established genres, like Tool who write progressive songs in the nu metal genre. Is this OK?
User:PearlTheater 00:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
* I think it's spot-on. Narssarssuaq 15:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
It's a bad idea.
Progressive as an adjective is different to Progressive Rock as a Noun.
Some of ABBA's arrangements are progressive - listen to the Suite that closes "ABBA - The Album".
Are you postulating that ABBA may be considered progressive in the same way that King Crimson may?
Didn't think so!
MarkCertif1ed 13:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Krautrock
This page needs a separate section on krautrock. The german scene is a key part of the history and development of progressive rock.
<IP_ADDRESS> 19:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia needs a separate page on Krautrock for that exact reason. That and the fact that Krautrock is as different as Amon Duul, Kraftwerk, Can, Faust, Guru Guru... :o) MarkCertif1ed 13:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Article Update discussion
Hi
Please allow me to introduce... myself...
I'm Certif1ed, noted for exceptionally long and tedious reviews of Progressive Rock on the site http://www.Progarchives.com - and equally long and tedious forum replies packed with a plethora of musical ramblings and rants.
I also write music - but enough of this over-glorified self-promotion - anyone would think I was into Progressive Rock or something...
On to the article - the reason for this talk post:
Enlighten me, please - what's dubious about the phrase;
"Another common structural feature lies in extended instrumental passages that are part composed, part improvised, giving the form strong links to both jazz and classical music"?
The way I've phrased it?
Does it need fleshing out a bit more?
Maybe I should explain the links to classical music a little more - I'm trying to avoid examples unless absolutely necessary, but I guess a few won't hurt. It's easy to hear quasi-symphonic formal structuring in the music of Yes, and Gentle Giant's improvisations around the old forms are nothing short of stunning. I might also mention the Enid and a whole load of others - who anyone even remotely familiar with Prog Rock should already know inside and out.
Then there are the bands who incorporated snippets or whole pieces of classical music - surely I don't even need to mention ELP, Renaissance, et al - and we mustn't forget the bands that actually used avante-garde compositional methods or who had direct influence from it: 50% of Can studied under Stockhausen, Zappa, famously, had a soft spot for Varese (and was himself, a bona fide composer), and Shub-Niggurath composed using "Cells" or cut-down note-rows based on Serialism.
I think that the actual content is not only correct, but also the consensual perception of Progressive Rock music by the great unwashed... but I'm open to suggestion, and will happily expand the subject matter so that it makes more sense.
Secondly, what's dubious about "While the Ionian mode is still prevalent even in progressive rock" ?
If you check out most pieces by the pioneering bands, you'll notice that not too many of them wandered off this track into more "exotic" (read "older") modes - this seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon, although it's true to say that acts such as King Crimson (notably) and jazz-fusion bands (by necessity) did use them.
Examples of non-Ionian mode pieces, please - preferably well-known and representational pieces rather than marginal.
Here, I think the actual content is again correct, but probably conflicts with the general perception.
Finally, what is the general feeling of the completely re-vamped Typical Characteristics section?
I'm quite happy that only two items were flagges as dubious - I was hoping for a halfway house so that the article is readable (and understandable) by non-musical folk and also satisfies the criteria of the more serious Prog Rock fan (of which there are a great number, if GEPR, ProgArchives and such sites are anything to go by!).
Does it sum up Prog Rock in 6 nutshells, or is it too retentive and rambling - even for Prog?
It certainly kills the laundry lists of examples!
Do you like the progressive structure of this post? :o) MarkCertif1ed 10:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Tell the story, as well as definitions and lists?
I'm beginning to think that definitions of prog rock and lists of bands and albums on the time line don't really tell the story as well as it might be told. It's almost as if the article is treating prog rock in the same way as blues, or something else relatively static. To me prog rock is about experimentation and change.
Prog rock did not spring fully formed, and I find it strange that King Crimson is seen as the start, when this doesn't seem to be what the time line says, either. I would see like to see how prog rock started. Perhaps the start was with "Tomorrow Never Knows" on Revolver (Beatles) or a Syd Barrett era Pink Floyd song (lengthy 40 minute songs on stage in London, Astronomy Domine, Arnold Layne as a single, or perhaps See Emily Play?). I would also like to know a little more about how the bands influenced each other, and how prog rock developed over time.
I know that other editors of this page know a lot more about what prog rock bands and songs are out there than I do, and I would like to know what people think of this approach.Trishm 11:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
* I'm in agreement here - but remember that Progressive Rock has become known by defining characteristics like any other genre of Rock music - it does not always progress in a literal sense. even though, on the whole, that is exactly what it did between c.1969-1975.
* From the bands that define what Prog Rock is (Crimson, Genesis, Tull, Yes, ELP, etc.), it's quite easy to work backwards and see the progression from "Heavy Rock", Folk, Psychedelic Rock and everything else that wasn't Soul, fused with more established pre-rock styles that had an air of authenticity or artistry - ie, "Classical" and jazz - especially "Progressive Jazz" that developed in the late 19402/early 1950s and culminated in "Bitches Brew".
* It'd take a while to go through all the important bands in its development - The Byrds, the Beatles, CSN/Buffalo Springfield, The Nice, Pink Floyd, John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, the Pretty Things, the Who, Jimi Hendrix, the Doors - and I've hardly got started (but I'm working on it!).
* The next idea is good - I hadn't thought of exploring the cross-semination, and it'd be a devil of a job to research - but it's quite apparent that "In the Court..." was a major player. Again, we'd need to be careful to avoid "laundry lists" - and you'd need to check sources very carefully. This would be a tricky thing to speculate on, even with in-depth analysis of the music - do you have good sources (ie musicians from Prog bands) with whom such links could be verified and even expanded upon?
Added references to Southern Cone bands
The article originally only mentioned three "New World" bands. A better term should have been North American, since the New World does include the rest of the Americas. As such, I've added references to a few of most imaginative prog bands from one of the hemisphere's most vibrant prog scenes: Argentina's.
* Please insert your own username here - I've edited this post because you made it look like I wrote it!
I also don't believe this article needs any more references to bands - you can always go to Prog Archives or GEPR to research the area of Southern Cone bands, or follow a simple link from this article. References removed. :o)
A NOTE TO ALL CONTRIBUTORS PLEASE RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO ADD MORE EXAMPLES, ESPECIALLY TO THE LIST OF CONCEPT ALBUMS. This is a general-purpose encyclopedia article, not an attempt at an exhaustive list. Really, at this writing ( 22:02, 21 March 2006) there are still too many examples even after a pretty good paring down by Hipred; there is absolutely no need for more. Please make sure any additions you make add useful information to the article without making it read like a laundry list. Your favorite band does NOT need to be mentioned at every turn, though by all means add ONE reference somewhere if you think someone important has been overlooked. Thank you.
MarkCertif1ed 21:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
* In that case, if we're choosing to avoid a major scene in this hemisphere, we should use North America instead of New World.
* Please insert your username!
I don't think that "major scenes" should be avoided at all - that's not what I was saying.
Examples are meaningless to everyone but those people who already know the bands cited. What is needed is a general article section that discusses the scene as a general thing, with a link to an expanded article that will contain further links to specific bands.
If it's a major scene, then it should have its own page - linked to from this one - and if the band in question is a good representative, then it too should have its own page.
BUT it should be made a part of the discussion in the article, rather than another list.MarkCertif1ed 08:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The terms prog or prog rock
I do not remember these terms being used in the 1970's or 1980's. It seems to come from the streamlining of words and expressions that is common practice in the internet era.. It also at times seem to be used to describe bands of more recent vintage <IP_ADDRESS> 21:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)
* As the article says, "It is commonly associated with symphonic rock and art rock, although the term progressive rock in today's usage often embraces a significantly wider spectrum of music than these styles". Maybe your point could be made more overtly in the article. Narssarssuaq 11:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
* Indeed, the term Progressive Rock was not in general usage until the mid 1970s - pretty much after the whole "movement" had finished.
* I think this needs discussion in the aticle itself - AFAIK, the term "Progressive" was first applied to jazz in the early 1950s (possibly late 1940s), and then to blues in the late 1960s.
* For examples of usage when applied to Blues, look no further than DECCA's "World of Progressive Blues Power" collections, and Johnny Winter's album.
* There is a one-off usage of the term "Progressive Rock", again, by DECCA, on their collection "Wowie Zowie" (1969), which features Genesis, Savoy Brown and Touch.
The terms "Prog" and "Prog Rock" are fairly recent developments, but are held to mean the same thing as Progressive Rock - which can be very confusing, as "Classic" Prog Rock (pre 1976) and modern day "Prog" are completely different, on the whole. Indeed, most modern "Prog" seems to be a watered-down interpretation of "Classic" Prog - unless anyone can point to concrete examples that prove this conception inaccurate.MarkCertif1ed 08:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
(My first-ever contribution to Wikipedia, so I hope I am not doing the wrong thing here...). In reply to the above, I wish to correct the assumptions made about the origin of various terms.
1) 'Progressive' was a fairly short-term label used in the late 1960s - and interchangeable with the term 'Underground' - by bands who wanted to escape from the general label of 'pop music', i.e. who wished their music to be taken seriously. This is exemplified by the Bath Festival of Blues which changed its name in 1969 to The Bath Festival of Blues, Underground and Progressive Music. Many bands so described in the late 1960s did not conform to the later definitions of 'prog', for example Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin, Free, etc.
2) By 1971, the term 'progressive' had died out, as rock music had become by then a form which was being taken much more seriously. In the British music press of the time, you will find no reference to the term, it having been supplanted by the general term 'rock', under which bands like Yes and Genesis were promoted, reviewed and sold. This was at a time when many sub-genres did exist - folk-rock, country-rock, space-rock, Krautrock, jazz-rock, pub-rock, etc. But the term 'progressive' is conspicuous by its absence in the early 1970s.
3) The shortened term 'prog' did not exist before 1976. It was deliberately coined by the new wave of punk journalists (e.g. Charles Shaar Murray, Julie Burchill, Tony Parsons) to dismiss a genre which they particularly hated, along with 'stadium rock'. It was meant to sound contemptuous, but subsequently the label stuck, and has come into widespread use by the 21st Century. It is used widely to describe many disparate sub-genres of rock, but ironically was used by those who hated the genre to imply a stale, formulaic and overblown type of music, of which the examples regularly cited as existing in the mid-1970s would be the works of Emerson Lake and Palmer, and the solo albums from Rick Wakeman.
<IP_ADDRESS> 22:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the fleshing out - it's worth having a little discussion about the origins of the term in the introduction to the article - and I did do an extensive update and re-write, which now unfortunately seems to have been removed and replaced with the rather bland intro we have today. I'll remedy that in due course - as long as my updates are agreed with, of course! MarkCertif1ed 14:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
No At the Drive-In?
This seems a little off. Relationship of Command is probably one of the best examples of prog/post-rock in the 90s, and TMV's Deloused in the Comatorium definitely qualifies no questions asked.
Good article but needs to be more complete. Kyuss is another example of 90s prog leanings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
* More examples are the last thing we need. Could you explain the phrase "Kyuss is another example of 90s prog leanings" - are you talking about a band? Is this band an excellent and representative example of 90s prog rock? Why? Thanks! MarkCertif1ed 08:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Kudos for a Good Article.
This is a short note to all who have added to this article. Upon reading it, I find it to be very informative and enjoyable. There does seem to be anticedent commentary regarding quality and accuracy issues, and I would like to see that these are resolved, with corresponding notes on the Talk page, just so we know that all points are addressed. Bottom line, all have done a very good job. William R. Buckley 05:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
* I agree, it's good. The next step should be to add more citations. See also WP:OR. Narssarssuaq 09:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
* Does verifiable fact count as a WP:OR violation? I think there's a fine line with articles concerning areas of the arts, in that many published works are themselves often unreliable, being but one person's view - often coloured by nostalgia. MarkCertif1ed 14:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
* We're getting to it I think. Indeed, a few more citations would improve, or perhaps simply removing some unsourced statements here and there. I would also like to trim down the references to various bands and sub-styles and keep the most notable ones. --Childhood's End 13:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
* Indeed - where a sub-style is not grammatically descriptive of what it represents, it should be ignored as a passing phase. The terms "Progressive Rock" and "Prog Rock" have a core definable group of representative bands with identifiable musical attributes. Other more dubiuos bands are discussed in minute detail on Progressive Rock fan sites.
* As above, I'm of the opinion that this article should look at what Progressive Rock is/was from an impartial and scientific viewpoint - which is something that most sources passionately avoid, hence their inherent unreliability. I'm not talking about self-spun theories, but adhering to provable fact - e.g. Genesis used the Mellotron, or Holgar Czukay was a pupil of Stockhausen. The problem is that we get stuff like "It is commonly associated with symphonic rock and art rock, although the term progressive rock in today's usage often embraces a significantly wider spectrum of music than these styles"
* The above is nonsense at best - the definitions for symphonic rock and art rock are vague to the point of being meaningless, as they cross over with most people's definitions of progressive rock - including many of the same bands as examples.
* This is also nonsense: "As well, they often reject specific genre norms, and use uncommon musical structures and ideas. Progressive rock often uses a melodic or symphonic approach to songwriting."
* Think about it - ABBA used a melodic approach to songwriting - so this sentence contradicts itself when it says "rejects specific genre norms" (whatever that means). There are also very few examples of where Progressive rock bands have used "uncommon" musical structures or ideas - one only has to go back about 50 years or so in music to see that most of the structures and ideas used were anything but uncommon. If we're going to be specific, we should avoid being vague!
* I'm not sure which sources would be of any use to cite, as most internet sources, at least, use Wikipedia as their source... :o)
* Update to follow in the next month or so... MarkCertif1ed 14:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
* I agree for some part and disagree for another :)
* It seems to me widely accepted that prog rock rejects specific genre norms and that it uses uncommon musical structures and ideas. I would thus keep this. But perhaps the "melodic" approach does not belong specifically to prog rock, yes. Perhaps what this was pointing to was that the melodic approach in prog rock is different than for mainstream rock genres (typically couplet, chorus, couplet, chorus...).
* As for further above, I say we should consider any improvement suggestions, as I also understand that symphonic rock and art rock do not give much of an idea (especially symphonic rock, imho). --Childhood's End 13:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
* The phrase "rejects specific genre norms" is meaningless without context - What specific genre norms? What genre? How do we know these are norms? In what way(s) are these "rejected"?
* Plenty of Prog Rock songs do use the structure you outlined, further underlining the meaninglessness of such urban myths. It's very common for a Prog Rock song to start with intro, verse, chorus, etc, and simply have an extended instrumental bridge - if we were being pedantic, we could even analyse songs like "The Musical Box" or "Echoes" and determine such a fundamental structure.
* These things may be "widely accepted", but that doesn't stop them from being verifiably mistaken at a fundamental level. This is why many people think of Prog Rock (and it's fans) as being overbearingly pretentious. :o) MarkCertif1ed 18:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
External links to useful sites
A few weeks ago a link that i posted a long time ago to a progressive rock related site was removed. I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, because i think this was an understandable reaction after this page being spammed with irrelevant links. Now the spam has calmed down, i'd like to reintroduce this link, as i think it is a useful community for progressive rock bands and fans. The name Bazaar could be misleading: it is certainly NOT a commercial site (neither is it some kind of obscure personal site). Also i think more external links should be allowed on this page (well, of course not some obscure fan page about Yes or something) as long as it's highly relevant (informational and about progressive rock).Bill Larivière 17:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
* sorry, but WP:EL, forums, blogs, etc... should be avoided... they're just random online communities, and really contribute essential information to the subject...
* I don't know about Bazaar, but I notice that every time someone adds a link to ProgArchives.com, it is deleted right away. I understand that the uninformed may find this to be a "random online community" - however, it is the leading prog site on the Net, and includes a wide range of genres and members, perhaps making it the closest the prog community gets to "authority" on the field. Its member profile and structure is admittedly inclusive, not unlike Wikipedia's. I feel that a link to this site is far more interesting, and would give far more output to people wanting to learn more, than the link to Progression Magazine, which honestly is way more random.Desor 18:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* Fanzines and ezines are all, essentially, violations of WP:EL. That being said, 1 particularly notable site can be added if there is previous talk page discussion and concensus reached. If you are opening that type of discussion now... then I can concur with your thoughts that, of all the Prog fansites(and, in the end thats what they all are) then ProgArchives is certainly a prime candidate for inclusion as an external link. If a third editor can also agree, then this discussion will have reached a concensus and that 1 website can be added to the external links section. After it is added, also by this discussion, any other 'zines added to the EL section can deleted with both WP:EL and WP:CON as the background reasoning. Two votes for ProgArchives. Anyone else? <IP_ADDRESS> 19:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* Vote 3 :o) MarkCertif1ed 13:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
* I just read ProgArchives' description of Progressive rock, and the phrase "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research" sprang to mind. It's quite awful from this perspective, as it's riddled with misleading information of all those types!
* I note that they're recently added The Who, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, Iron Maiden, Roxy Music and Deep Purple - who are by no means Progressive Rock bands.
* Is this site outgrowing actual "Prog" and therefore becoming of limited use to readers of this article? MarkCertif1ed 12:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Improv in prog, jazz and classical music
About the sentence
* "Another common structural feature lies in extended instrumental passages that are part composed and part improvised, aspects which are usually associated with jazz and Classical music"
I think this is dubious. Most progressive rock is almost 100% composed, totally unlike jazz, and classical music IS generally 100% composed. Also, metal and rock (which I guess is what the sentence compares progressive rock to) sometimes contains some improvs, such as guitar solos. In prog, only fusion and kraut contain a significant amount of improvisation, (and this could be precisely why at least fusion only is considered fringe prog). Narssarssuaq 10:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
* I agree that jazz is mostly impro and that classical music is 100% composed. I would also agree that prog is mostly composed (some have impro, but well...). I although had to revert to this former version because the new text had references such as to Krautrock, which to me is really unfit so early in the article and within this section's topic. I'll try to reword later unless someone can find a better compromise.
* The entire progressive genre covers the whole spectre with regard to improv, from the Kraut jams to 100% composed music. If we can't mention sub-genres, we should perhaps not mention improvs at all. Narssarssuaq 07:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
* Perhaps this would do? : "Another common structural feature lies in extended composed instrumental passages, an aspect which is usually associated with classical music".
* Rock and metal do have composed instrumental passages, but they are not usually very long, or "extended"... --Childhood's End 18:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
* Hmm not sure this would make sense... Classical music is instrumental only :) --Childhood's End 18:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
* You've never heard of classical singing???--Scottandrewhutchins 18:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
* Well yes, of course, probably I should have considered it as included within the meaning of "classical music". --Childhood's End 19:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not true to say that most Progressive Rock is 100% composed - ELP, for instance is a clear case where the band jam around many of the ideas.
Jazz pieces are partially composed, and the improv is performed around certain structure points in the composition. You get more or less improv, but that there is some composition is unavoidable.
Classical Composers improvised all the time - Beethoven was renowned for his improvisations, as were Mozart and Bach. The pieces we have in manuscript form are a result of improvisation within a framework. MarkCertif1ed 18:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Time to semi-protect this article?
There has been a flurry of edits made by IP accounts recently. I have tried to follow and check this here and there, but it is getting out of control. While a few of these edits have actually improved the article (in my opinion), too many are merely additions of references or info about their favourite bands or simply about specific bands rather than about prog rock. This article already has way too many references to non-notable bands, and info about even notable ones. Perhaps it is time to semi-protect it for a while... Thoughts? --Childhood's End 13:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC) ut
* I think there are still a lot of improvements that can be made - with proper discussion and approval. We've got a nice "B" rating now, so it'd be good to hold onto that - I will defend my contributions to the letter, unless there's a reasonable challenge :o) MarkCertif1ed 18:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
* Well I agree with that, there's still improvement that can be made. And I think that this article has the potential to be featured some day. But semi-protecting the article would not prevent editors like you to edit the article - only IP addresses and newly registered users. Yesterday alone, we had to revert "The Sound of Animals Fighting" and some mention that Rush was considered progressive only by uneducated people. IP accounts also regularly come here to add their favourite bands somewhere in the article. It's getting hard to control... --Childhood's End 18:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Minor addition
Since it wasn't mentioned before, I added that not only does (and always did) use polyrhythm, but also layering of entirely different time signatures (polymeter). Those are entirely different things when it comes to musical theory. And to my knowledge - outside of (contemporary) classical music - progressive rock (first of all King Crimson) was the first musical style which used polymeter... Jazz has only ever used polyrhythm, syncopated rhythm and hemiola etc, but no polymeter.... Regards, <IP_ADDRESS> 04:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC) MikeB
* That could be the case, but beware of original research. See WP:OR. Also, is it important enough to be included in the article? Narssarssuaq 10:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
* And it's not widely used enough to be a good generalism.MarkCertif1ed 18:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
List Of Concept Albums
WP's List of albums has an entry for List of concept albums but there is no article there. Seems like one of us proggers would be qualified to start such an article - either open to all musical genres, or as "List of concept rock albums", "List of concept progrock albums" or "List of concept pop albums". Could be fun to make, informative, and fits with WP policy. Any thoughts? Gekritzl 00:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
* I think there was a List of concept albums, but I can't find it now. Maybe it's been deleted. Narssarssuaq 11:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
"Timbre" used and defined incorrectly
The word "timbre" is defined in this article as "instrumentation and dynamic." This is a complete misuse of the word "timbre." The "Timbre" wikipedia article definition is pretty accurate and is completely inconsistent with this progressive rock article's definition. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre) Timbre refers to the sound and tone color of a particular instrument or sound; it, in no way, refers to instrumental arrangement or dynamics. It describes the tone and sound of specific voices. I haven't made any changes myself, but it needs to be changed. Any thoughts? Pbmaverick 21:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
* I know that "Timbre" ususally means what you say, technically, but it seems here to refer to the "Timbre of a song or piece" instead of an instrument... --Childhood's End 01:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
* The term still has nothing to do with dynamics or instrument choice; it describes tone. Speaking of dynamics and instruments does not describe timbre. It is definitely used incorrectly in this article and should be removed. Pbmaverick 18:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
* I dont know, let's wait for more input. To me, a song that features different instruments than another song necessarily involves a different "timbre". --Childhood's End 20:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
* That argument could be made in a strange way regarding instrumentation, though it still involves a misuse of the word's regular musical definition (and therefore, I feel, should be removed). However, including a description of dynamics is completely unmerited with regard to timbre. The volume of a sound certainly has nothing to do with its tone color, whether one is speaking of a full band or of one particular voice.Pbmaverick 20:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The volume of a sound does alter a tone's colour - it's an easily demonstrable fact: Try shouting, then whispering. Do the two sound different - apart from the volume?
Instrumentation is also a part of timbre - Wikipedia's article states very clearly: "Timbre has been called "the psychoacoustician's multidimensional wastebasket category" [1] as it can denote many apparently unrelated aspects of a sound.".
Timbre is in no way limited to a single instrument - timbre is one of the 5 basic elements of music as a phenomenon, and music does not limit itself to individual instruments, but instead is the sum of its parts. MarkCertif1ed 17:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
...at least. the same is true of words and sentences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Roxy Music
I suggest adding Roxy Music to the list of notable progressive bands in the lead. Badagnani 04:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
* At least notability-wise, I dont think Roxy Music is on par with Rush, Jethro Tull and co. --Childhood's End 13:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
* No - Roxy Music are not an example of Progressive Rock. The definition needs updating, and I think I might have something... MarkCertif1ed 17:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
* Roxy Music is actually Art-Rock. M.V.E.i. 16:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
* Progressive Rock is technically a subgenre of Art Rock - if the term "Art Rock" is used correctly (which it rarely is, as most often it's just used as a bucket into which unknowns are placed). There's little that's particularly artistic about most of Roxy Music's output.
* I have bought progressive compilations that included Roxy Music on it, but I thought they stuck out like a sore thumb. --Scottandrewhutchins 15:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
NEW DEFINITION
Let's see what comments this attracts over the next couple of months. I came up with it in response to a post about Progressive Music on ProgArchives.com (a growing force in the world of Prog Rock now, with 12,500 members or so). The reactions there were only positive - but maybe there's still something missing.
Essentially, what I'm trying to do with this is provide a concrete definition based on observable and verifiable fact, not opinion or private research - just common sense.
The idea is then to expand this to provide a historical context, and structure the article better so that it flows well and loses the need for "laundry lists".
PROGRESSIVE ROCK: A (very potted) definition by Certif1ed. Progressive Rock is a form of rock music that evolved in the late 1960s and early 1970s, principally from psychedelic rock - and ultimately, but also as a result of jazz-rock fusion and experimentation with electronic instruments. The main defining characteristics and tendencies are that the compositions are more elaborate than standard rock song structure of verse, chorus, etc., the arrangements incorporate stylisations based on jazz, classical, world or even avant-garde music, and the lyrics, where they exist, are often conceptual or based in fantasy. Some progressive rock bands took the explorations into composition and style to such extremes, that their music ceased to be Rock at all - and so it is that the term Progressive Rock has become less useful than the term Progressive Music. MarkCertif1ed 18:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Time signature/Mixed meters
Does people here know about music theory? Do you think prog music have a lot of different time signatures and/or mixed meters (signatures)?? Khullah 03:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Some Progressive Rock uses different time signatures, some doesn't. For example, "Dance on a Volcano" by Genesis is largely in 7/4, and so are "Money" by Pink Floyd, and "Paranoid Android" by Radiohead.
It's a widely held misconception that the use of unusual time sigs is a feature of Progressive Rock - in reality, most bands don't use anything outside of 4/4, or will gravitate back to it - e.g., the "rock" sections of "Money", "Paranoid Android" (can't remember if "Dance..." changes or not offhand...).
One of Genesis' popular hits (widely considered as not true Prog Rock), "Turn it on Again" is in 13/4, as is "Golden Brown" by the Stranglers.
So while Prog Rock may use odd time sigs, the use of odd time sigs is not the most important factor in deciding whether a piece is Prog Rock or not. MarkCertif1ed 07:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
It still is an important factor, though. It can certainly help differentiate between progressive music and non-progressive music, obviously not EVERY prog song will be out of 4/4 in parts. I know a lot of other music has different time signatures in places but not necessarily in the same structure progressive music applies them. It may not be a "defining factor", but it is still an important facet, in most progressive music. --Crescent Armada 18:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
* Concur. --Childhood's End 18:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
* There are many "defining factors" - it's important not to focus too tightly on a single one or even subset of factors. This is how people get confused about what constitutes a Progressive Rock act. People try to define it using a couple of loose criteria, to include their favourite band in the elite that is Progressive Rock, then find out that many bands that would never in a million years be considered Prog use the exact same techniques.
* Interesting that you mention structure - it's my belief that form (structure) is the key defining factor of Progressive Rock.MarkCertif1ed 07:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Sun Ra?
I'm not big into Progressive rock (or dealing with categories anyway), but if prog rock is "also as a result of jazz-rock fusion and experimentation with electronic instruments", hasn't Sun Ra been a major influence on anyone in the genre? --John_Abbe 05:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
* There are many bands that were influences on the genre - the important thing is to be specific - if Sun Ra were profoundly influential, for example, you'd need to say which innovations were picked up by which bands. MarkCertif1ed 09:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Proposal : Delete "Influences" sub-section
The article's sub-section "Influences" is merely a pile-up of the favourite obscure bands of editors who came by and added them, and it offers little if no valuable information. Per se, all musical styles have had various influences, especially prog rock, and it seems to me a meaningless exercise to try to enumerate all the bands that have been minimally influenced by some element of progressive rock at some point. Agree/disagree? --Childhood's End 18:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
* Agree - we need to reduce lists to make the article more readable. MarkCertif1ed 09:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Moog Taurus Bass Pedals
This may seem a little flipant, but would this be the right page to write about the influence on Prog Rock of the Moog Taurus Bass Pedal? Doozy88 17:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
* A better general discussion of popular instruments used would certainly be usefulMarkCertif1ed 09:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
"Name was initially applied to bands such as Yes, Genesis"etc
deleted for reference to new article.
Melodymaker1969 08:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It jolly well IS true - the term Progressive Rock wasn't widely used until the mid 1970s, by which time the "movement" was almost over, and referred to precisely those ENGLISH bands.
The term Progressive was regular and fashionable coinage - it was used in conjunction with the Cool Jazz of Miles Davis and Lennie Tristano... hang on - the article explains this (I know, I did the updates :o) MarkCertif1ed 08:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I recall the first use of the term Progressive Rock in the late 60s on FM radio. It referred to groups like The Byrds, The Airplane/Starship, The Doors, SuperSession, and many others who today's "definers" would not assign the term. What Progressive Rock was then was a movement away from the general top 40 music, in style and content, as part of the Counter-Culture. At least, that is how the term was being used in Cleveland at the time. ``` —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrZom (talk • contribs) 18:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Hard Progressive Rock
I just added the subgenre "hard progressive rock" which is too important to be ommited. As Dream Theater in their footage to "Live at Budokam" DVD defines their genre as "hard progressive rock" (By Petrucci to be acurate.) So it seems useful to put this link open for further grow. --Sepand 18:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why it's so important - and even less why it applies to Dream Theater. Just because Petrucci says that's what DT play doesn't make it so. DT play and have always played a type of Metal music - it's got riffs and solos and everything. Whether it's actually progressive of not is open for debate :o) MarkCertif1ed 08:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Altering Mention of Rush Album
I loved reading the Progressive Rock page, but was surprised by the 80s section, which mentioned popular efforts by King Crimson, Asia and Yes, but nothing about Rush, though their most successful album (Moving Pictures) and single ("Tom Sawyer") were from this era. I made brief mention of Moving Pictures and listed the three singles from it, noting that "Tom Sawyer" was the group's biggest hit. All told, it was no more than three sentences long, briefer than the nods to King Crimson and Yes. A few minutes later, it was changed and greatly shortened, with no special mention of "Tom Sawyer". However, the section goes on to describe in detail Yes' hit, "Owner of a Lonely Heart". Why the change, and how does the editor defend it?
* It was a hasty pov/cruft clean. The article is in need of some WP:NPOV cleaning. Of course Tom Sawyer can be mentioned. Will rp it in a bit. <IP_ADDRESS> 21:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
We don't need to metion specific albums - it just turns the article into a nasty laundry list. The albums can be mentioned on the band's pages, unless they're truly revolutionary, like "In The Court...". MarkCertif1ed 08:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
JETHRO TULL
I wouldn't say that they were progressive in any way myself. More linked to folk and blues, don't you think? DaveEx 22:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Progressive music spans far and wide, including many influences. Of course they are linked to folk and blues, as many modern progressive bands are more linked to, for instance, metal, like Opeth. But the way they execute their music makes them more than just an ordinary blues or folk band. --Crescent Armada 13:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Take your point about the invention, but still not convinced.DaveEx 18:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Say what you like - Jethro Tull are widely acknowledged as one of the early Progressive bands.
If you want to take that approach, you could argue that King Crimson were more linked to blues and jazz (similar in many ways to bands like Bakerloo, May Blitz, High Tide, etc.), that Genesis were more linked to folk and so on.
The link is strong to folk, obviously, but then that's a feature of Prog Rock - it takes on aspects and flavours of other genres. Read the typical characteristics section on the main article and listen to what Tull did - especially on the albums up to and including the incontrovertibly proggy "Thick as a Brick". Odd time sigs abound - Barrie Barlow was/is master of these - and the rock element is very strong. There's a clear breaking away from blues structures - it's not at all hard to hear.
Hope this helps :o) MarkCertif1ed 08:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Tull death us do part
You're obviously a fan, fair enough. And I don't disagree that Tull subsequently absorbed the prog influences, and became part of it, but that was much later. Early Tull were not, in my opinion, at all progressive. But then, they were inventive enough (as has been said) to warrant a case for inclusion, albeit a tenuous one. I just wanted to throw the question in, to see what others thought. But I think you're going too far when you suggest that they were at the heart of the movement! Another point I'd like to make is that the original Tull, with Mick Abrahams, Glen Cornick, Clive Bunker, were the true Jethro Tull. Ian's obsession with getting his own way led to the band being merely him plus his chosen minions - the heart of the band was decimated. OK, still sold the records to the fans who were already sold, but none of the later incarnations was a patch on the original band, especially on stage. The problem was that the guys from Ian's original Blackpool group were basically semi-pro in quality, much inferior to the guys they had replaced. I know, I was there and saw (and heard) it happen. Of course, Ian was so talented that anything he did was still clever and interesting. DaveEx 06:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not really a fan - I only own one Tull album, and it's a "Best of". Besides, my comments aren't fanboyisms - I'm making factual observations of the music, not telling you how much I like it!
Besides, Yes' first album isn't Prog either - and nor are Genesis or Pink Floyd's early outings... shall we continue?
The point I'm making is that Tull are WIDELY regarded as being one of the original 10 or so founder groups that represent what Prog Rock is, no matter what is "True" Tull - it's Ian's band, so anything he wants to do with it is real and true enough.
Saying that the first line-up is the only true one seems a bit silly to me - what if Genesis had remained with their original line-up? Pink Floyd?
Interesting discussion, but off-topic, unless you've got something concrete to add to it - like some notable authorities on Prog Rock that agree with your sentiment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkCertif1ed (talk • contribs) 12:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, so you're not a fan, but you seem to have a pretty big axe to grind, all that tosh about 'widely regarded' (and in BIG letters to convince yourself it must be true!). Is that what you mean by 'notable authorities'? We can all find a couple of guys to agree with ourselves. Well the authorities I know (!) would say no way were Jethro were among the original '10 or so' founder groups of Prog. Maybe a case for inclusion, but that's about it. Bands like King Crimson, Yes, The Nice are much more defined in Prog terms. For instance, Crimson's jazz and blues are merely influences, Tull's are there by definition. And as for being Ian's band, so he can do what he wants with it, that's true, but doesn't mean he's ended up with anything better. Excrement is real and true enough, after its conversion from the original product. Then again, that's not fair on Ian. Anything he produced would be interesting. But you can't just kill that magical chemistry and expect to get anything even approaching the quality. It's the sum total of the parts, not the parts. Ian didn't want chemistry, he wanted control. Chemistry comes by accident, not design. Or do you think it's justified because of continued record sales? Maybe you do, if your observations on Genesis and Pink Floyd are anything to go by. Disagree with that kind of thinking. But I don't have any axes to grind on this, the Jethro of the late 60s was a really good band, I don't have quibbles about that. And the labels don't matter, the music does. It was just a passing observation, and one I know to be true, from being there, and seeing it happen. I should be careful of authorities if I were you. You might start to believe you're one yourself. DaveEx 14:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
* From my limited knowledge, I'd think most people who knew anything about Prog would include Tull in the original 10, but I'd be happy to bow to a good argument why they shouldn't. Who are your "authorities"? It'd be good to cross-refer with the source.
* You could always try a straw poll at a site like Prog Archives.com, where you'll get a cross-section of a large number of Prog fans.
* Your opinions are interesting, if a little confused and somewhat misguided in the way you express them, if you don't mind me saying - but you're obviously passionate about your subject, so that's OK. It's a bit unfair of you to make all those assumptions on what I might be thinking though, and distinctly not conducive to a good discussion.
* I'm sure there are plenty of people that were "there" - but if you remember it, surely you weren't really? ;o)
MarkCertif1ed 20:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
* I'm glad you admit your knowledge is limited, that's a start! But I was only asking a question, not expressing a strong opinion, I like Tull, nothing worth fighting over. If there was, I'd dig out authorities for you to sniff at, though nuff said bout authorities! Maybe I was unfair about assumptions, you're right. And I appreciate your good humour regardless. But I really was there. Though as you suggest, it's a bit like a blind man feeling part of an elephant and trying to decide what it looks like. One guy's meat is another's poison etc. Good luck. DaveEx 09:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
* You seem pretty convinced at the answer to your question, and that's intriguing, as it differs to every other opinion I've encountered. I concede that Tull's early material is bluesy - with more than a touch of folk, but the albums they released during the heyday of Prog are, by and large, Prog - so it seems to make sense to include them in any list of originators of the genre.
* My most convincing source is here; http://www.j-tull.com/discography/studio.html, although I "have it on good authority" that Ian himself didn't like Tull to be thought of as Prog Rock, and Thick as a Brick was just poking fun at the genre. Mind you, I've also heard that Fripp hates the term Progressive Rock, and there's something about the word "Prog" that I don't like...
* The second (less convincing, badly written, but nonetheless adequately authoritative) source is here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jethro_Tull_(band), where the term "archetypal" is used.
* Personally, I think that's going too far - Genesis, Crimson and Yes are probably the only archetypes, but it takes more than archetypes to form the core of a genre; for example, Pink Floyd are hardly the archetypal Prog band (many proggers have issues with their simplicity and clearly blues-rooted songs), yet they are core to how Prog Rock developed and is still being produced. Tull, along with VDGG and Gentle Giant are great and bleeding-edge bands that showcase the diversity of Prog (that most modern Prog bands are sadly lacking) - yet none of those 3 have the influence of the 3 archetypes - or Floyd. But VDGG and GG are also "widely held" to be at the core of the "movement".
* I guess a line should be drawn - should we limit the list to the archetypes or keep it as "widely held" examples (bearing in mind that listing everyone is NOT an option!)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkCertif1ed (talk • contribs) 16:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
* I guess we're all convinced about our own replies! And I knew Ian, he didn't like labels at all. The trouble with history is it depends who's writing it. And fame helps a lot too. I'd say that the group who had more to do with what happened than anyone is 1-2-3, but because they didn't become famous, the bands who took the idea from them got the credit instead, Yes, The Nice, King Crimson, Genesis, all derivative of what 1-2-3 did at least 2yrs before them. Though lately there seems to be some acknowledgement of that. Then again, lots of pioneers get lost in the history books for the same reason. Understandably, people who follow on later identify it all with the most famous groups rather than the ones they stole the ideas from. Of the ones you mention, I'd say only Floyd were original. And Tull were individual, if not original. But that's truth, not history. DaveEx 18:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
* To answer your question, I like to see it as a hardcore list surrounded by a few peripheral 'maybes'. But looking at what you're trying to do, I think you're doing a good job. Follow your own instincts, they seem fine to me.DaveEx 18:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The Who and Led Zeppelin...
A lot of references to these bands seem to have suddenly appeared recently.
Hopefully everyone agrees that neither are tier 1 (or even tier 2) prog rock bands - or am I being picky? MarkCertif1ed 20:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I can see why someone might think that they're prog bands, particularly The Who from Tommy to Quadrophenia, but they're usually not referred to as such. --Scottandrewhutchins 20:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
* Indeed - and one would never consider them Prog Rock in the same sense as, for example, Jethro Tull or Gentle Giant (Tier 1) or even Barclay James Harvest or Camel (Tier 2) MarkCertif1ed 21:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
* Also, Kansas, Rush and Marillion keep getting added to the paragraph that begins "The term was originally applied to...".
* I beg to differ that the term Progressive Rock was originally applied to these bands - most hadn't formed when Prog Rock was in its infancy, and since the term came into general use a year or so before either Rush or Kansas gained widespread popularity, I can't believe that the term was originally applied to them. As for Marillion, well... no comment!
* Rush and Marillion need to be mentioned, but in appropriate places, e.g. Marillion as an example of a Neo-Prog act. Kansas I'm not at all sure about - as far as I can recall, "Leftoverture" is their only truly proggy album, and it's second tier compared to the English bands.
* Concurrence? MarkCertif1ed 21:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
* Kansas is definitely prog from their inception to 1980, and probably from 1985 on. It's hard to imagine a description that fits songs like "Belexes," "Imcommundro", "Apercu," "Lamplight Symphony," "Angels Have Fallen," etc. better than prog. They did not start until 1971, so they would not be the earliest, but they are by far the most important American band described as prog and should rate a mention. --Scottandrewhutchins 21:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
* A "mention" isn't a badge of honour - a band is mentioned because of their contextual importance - so if we were discussing important American prog bands, then Kansas are probably the first one would think of.
* However, when discussing the origins of the genre as a whole (not geographically), Kansas are not so important - the Komische bands rank much higher in their innovative and experimental approaches, even though many of them owe a huge debt to Pink Floyd.
* Kansas, by contrast, merely had a progressive style, as opposed to overall approach. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that in this light, it's hard to count them among the originators of the genre.
* MarkCertif1ed 22:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The Who are commonly cited for their work in the area of the rock opera, which falls under progressive rock. See: and Rock and Roll: Its History and Stylistic Development <IP_ADDRESS> 01:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* But they are not known as prog acts primarily, that's the point. Freshacconci 01:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* According to who? You? Not good enough. Take it up with the rock 'n' roll history text book I cited. <IP_ADDRESS> 01:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* Well, according to the consensus being developed above. I obviously can only check the online source at the moment, but it basically states that prog rock can be a blanket term that includes rock opera, but the Who is not listed as a key prog rock act. In other words, according to your source, rock operas can be included in the overall term, but not as the main definition, which again is the whole point: who are the main figures of prog rock, i.e. acts known primarily as prog. The Who went through various stages, including rock operas. Feel free to work this in somehow, but they can't be listed as a key prog act. That's why we have discussion pages, to build consensus. Don't just revert and delete wholesale. It borders on vandalism. Cheers! Freshacconci 01:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* Thanks for the robust debate! It's not that The Who are a "key" prog rock act or "main figures of prog" or anything like that. They are not being listed as such in this wikipedia article. They are simply receiving their due mention for their innovation and popularization of the rock opera, a form which emphatically falls under the umbrella of progressive rock according to multiple sources. This is a cited and referenced opinion. Cheers, to you, too! <IP_ADDRESS> 02:22, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The online source specifically mentions The Who. The Rock 'n' Roll History textbook I cited placed their write-up on The Who in the Art Rock (Progressive Rock) section instead of the British Invasion section, due to the importance they placed on The Who's innovation of the rock opera. You can verify that for yourself with the link I posted by perusing the Table of Contents. We aren't supposed to be editing these pages with our opinions and/or creating original work. We are supposed to be using the information of reputable sources. For the record, I'm not contesting Led Zeppelin's omission, but The Who are emphatically progressive rock according to my sources, which includes a college level course. Thanks for reading! <IP_ADDRESS> 02:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* First: The Who didn't write Rock Operas - they just told people they did, and people believed them because they saw a great film with inspirational pop songs that went with it.
* Second: Tommy wasn't the first Rock Opera (not that it was a Rock Opera!). Surely Andrew Lloyd Webber is more deserving of being listed, if Rock Opera is so important?
* Third: I haven't read the book cited here - but I have read others, and none exhort the Who in such a fashion.
* Fourth: The Real Music service at the link you provide is OK, but I wouldn't take it as an authority over everywhere else - still less a "reputable source", since it's misguided in some of its categorisations and vague in its definitions: It more or less says that Art Music and Progressive Rock are the same thing. They're not - Progressive Rock is a type of Art Rock, but not all Art Rock is Prog Rock!
* Finally: I've also done a college course or two - the first one I attended was very light on reference material (there wasn't much around back then), so I had to do a lot of original research. The only thing a college course will tell you in regard to Progressive Rock is that no-one really knows what it is. Maybe I should publish my own research, and become my own authoritative source ;o) MarkCertif1ed 07:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* Maybe you should. Saying The Who didn't write rock operas is complete tosh. They coined the phrase so they can define it however they like. Tommy predates Jesus Christ Superstar. So do The Who's first stabs at the rock opera form with 1966's "A Quick One While He's Away" and 1967's "Rael". The Who's efforts in the rock opera form are certainly far more "progressive" than Pink Floyd's, since The Wall is nothing more than Pink Floyd's version of Tommy, arriving over a decade later. Several of the songs of Tommy have more in common with classical works than anything on The Wall as well. You may think you know what progressive rock is, but I'll stand by my published sources. <IP_ADDRESS> 18:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
* Your description of my opinion as "complete tosh" without good evidence is not helpful to either your cause or rational discussion.
* Check here, where it's fully acknowledged that "Rock Opera" is a misnomer in most cases; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_opera (an article written by a Who fan, it would seem, as there's no mention of Queen or Andrew Lloyd Webber's earlier outing, not to mention other attempts at Rock Opera outside of the Pretty Things and Pink Floyd - anyone reading it might think that these are the only 3 examples, which they're not!).
* No-one was trying to claim that "Jesus Christ Superstar" predates "Tommy" - but it's much, much closer to the real thing. The Andrew Lloyd Webber piece that does predate "Tommy" - and is closer to being an actual Rock Opera - is "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat".
* Also, the Pretty Things "SF Sorrow" predates "Tommy" by a year, and is widely acknowledged to be the first Rock Opera (although again, it isn't really). Most sources point out the pieces you refer to - but a single piece does not make an opera, so again, I find this misleading. It's like saying that "Days of Future Passed" is the first symphonic prog album just because it features an orchestra. Well hang on - so do many Frank Sinatra albums.
frank sinatra didn't work in a collective or write his own material, you're using incorrect criteria —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 21:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
* It's also like reading articles that claim "Bohemian Rhapsody" is a mini-opera. It's understandable how people could reach this conclusion, given the general misunderstanding of what opera is by the general public and the rock world's attempt to confuse it further, but "BR" is simply operatic in style - not to mention entirely tongue in cheek, as the lyrical content is meaningless.
* The Wall isn't really a Rock Opera either - but it's a bit closer than the Who's efforts, as it at least has passages that resemble recitative, arioso - and even operetta in the trial scene.
* The Who's historian, Richard Barnes points out that "Tommy" is not really an opera - so I know whose (sic) opinion I'd choose in this case. Source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_%28rock_opera%29
* Finally, I don't think I know what Progressive Rock is - it's an ongoing learning process, and it's patently clear, after nearly 25 years of research, that very few other people actually know what it is either. Most people have their own pet ideas of what it is, and most are right in some ways and wrong in others - so please accept the limitations of your source, since it is such a personal subject that there is indubitably a lot of POV in it. MarkCertif1ed 07:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't care who says Tommy isn't a "real opera" since it doesn't claim to be. It claims to be a "rock opera," a phrase coined by The Who. You say The Wall is closer to rock opera, utilizing your definition of what a rock opera should be. I say Tommy is closer to rock opera, as, unlike The Wall, it contains an overture and utilized instrumental passages and recurring musical themes a decade before The Wall did. I also say it's closer to rock opera since The Who invented the form, so they ought to know. Regardless, The Wall is Pink Floyd trying to make their Tommy. I don't see what's so "progressive" about mimicry.
Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat is all over the map. It's far from a rock opera. A couple Elvis impersonations in a pastiche of broadway showtunes, calypso, country music, etc. do not a rock opera make. It also doesn't predate either "A Quick One While He's Away" or "Rael". A rock opera is a narrative expressed through a series of rock songs, so length doesn't matter. I don't recall anyone saying a rock opera has to be album length or double album length or anything like that. Certainly not the guy who invented it: Pete Townshend. Rush's rock opera 2112 isn't even album length. It's only on the first side. S.F. Sorrow also doesn't predate "A Quick One While He's Away" or "Rael". It's the first album length rock opera. Not the first rock opera. I don't know why you're bringing up Queen, since they didn't release anything until 1973 and their experiments are in the realm of operatic rock, as opposed to rock opera which is narrative based.
But none of this matters. I have published sources and you do not. Saying The Who didn't write rock opera is downright Orwellian. They invented the form. They popularized the form. They coined the phrase. They're the rock artist most associated with the form. The day your theories are taught at the university level nationwide is the day you'll have a point. Until then, I'll stand by what's been taught in the past, is taught today, and will continue to be taught until you or someone else convinces the world that The Who aren't representative of the musical form they're best known for:Encyclopedia Britannica Good luck. <IP_ADDRESS> 18:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
* While your opinions are interesting, they are also entirely POV. I looked at the link you provided, then searched for Rock Opera in that same site (Encyclopaedia Britannica (Concise Edition)). The Who were not at the top of the list that the search returned - instead, it appeared to be Andrew Lloyd Webber who dominated the list. You can imagine my surprise...
* There is little concurrence that The Who are a key Prog Rock act, so they should not be added to the first section - is the point of this discussion, and that much still holds water. If they were going to be mentioned in relation to Prog Rock (what is this fever that grips people to have their favourite bands "mentioned"?), then it would be as a note under a single one of the typical characteristics sections, or maybe somewhere in the discussion about Concept albums - which at the moment is a complete mess.
* The side discussion of what consitutes a Rock Opera is moot, as you yourself agree that it is not Opera as I understand it - which is basically the same way the world's Opera community understands it, and "Jesus Christ Superstar" exemplifies.
* You even underscore the fact that "Tommy" is pure rock at heart in your attack on Joseph for having influences which are too diverse. All of this makes the Who/Prog link even harder to grasp, and the Lloyd Webber link easier to see.
* Saying that since they invented it, it can be whatever they like is not a very convincing argument, if you'll excuse my bluntness. I wonder if there will be any concurrence here or anywhere else on the internet?
MarkCertif1ed 19:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Now you've really lost me, because I've never claimed that The Who are a core prog rock band. Ever. I don't know what you are talking about. The article as it currently stands is fine with me. It does not say anywhere that The Who are a core prog rock band. It appropriately mentions their two album length rock operas in the "Characteristics" section and their first use of the form with "A Quick One While He's Away" in the "Precursers" section. I also never agreed that Tommy is not a rock opera. Where are you getting that from? I said it's not a real opera. But it is emphatically a rock opera, a form which falls in the realm of progressive rock. I'm also only referring to the album and The Who concert performances of the album when I say it's not a real opera. When the work is staged, as it was on Broadway, then it's certainly a real opera. Far more real than The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and The Wall. I also defy you to listen to the album and then tell me that "Overture" and "Underture" are just rock songs. The classical music influences are obvious. Standard rock form? Hardly. Keith Moon's approach to the drumkit alone on the album is truly progressive, in the original and best sense of the word. On another note, I fail to see how anyone can listen to "Baba O'Riley" and say with a straight face that it's not progressive. It's unlike anything that existed before, a strange melange of the minimalism of Terry Riley, anthemic rock and an irish jig on speed. Heck, The Who were playing "In the Hall of the Mountain King" before Emerson, Lake and Palmer even existed. So I could easily make an argument that The Who are a progressive rock band without even mentioning their rock operas at all. The Who are groundbreakers. That's what progressive rock really is. Rock music that is making progress, going beyond what has been done before. That makes The Who far more "progressive" than bands like Dream Theatre who are merely continuing a tradition created decades before. So what do you want to do? Remove mention of Tommy and Quadrophenia from the rock opera portion of the article? Albums that predate both The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and The Wall, making them far more progressive? Deny that rock opera falls under progressive rock, when I have sources from uk.real.com and Rock 'n' Roll: Its History and Sylistic Development saying that it does? Deny that The Who wrote rock operas when every source, including the Encyclopedia Britannica, says that they did? You even do a search on the Encyclopedia Britannica site and then hilariously claim that the source is flawed, when, clearly, it's the search engine that is flawed. So what is your aim here? I've provided sources. Three of them, not one. Including a university level textbook and a respected encyclopedia. You claim to have many sources and present none of them. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, here. <IP_ADDRESS> 20:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
And now you just completely changed what I was replying to. That's just great. Like I said, I'm fine with the article as it stands, in relation to The Who. I'm not trying to get The Who added to the first section as a key prog band. I never have been. No one has that I can tell. Their albums Tommy and Quadrophenia are appropriately mentioned. A mention you tried to remove. "A Quick One While He's Away" is mentioned in the precurser section. That's also appropriate. I'm satisfied. Are you? <IP_ADDRESS> 20:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
And, by the way, my opinions aren't POV when I'm citing textbooks and encyclopedias. Sheesh. <IP_ADDRESS> 20:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
* Serves me right for saving test edits again... there are few people as quick to respond around here as you seem to be.
* Your views on what make Progressive Rock are actually views on what makes rock progressive - see, Progressive Rock is not the same thing at all. I suggest you learn something about the genre - there's a quite informative article on Wikipedia, although it's not quite perfect yet...MarkCertif1ed 21:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
You've answered none of my questions. I've looked at the history of your edits. No one was adding The Who to the first section. No one was saying they are a key prog act worthy of the first section. No one was saying that Led Zeppelin is a prog act. I don't know how you got that impression from the section you deleted, since that section was in fact differentiating Led Zeppelin from prog. The Who are mentioned in the characteristics and precursers sections for their rock opera works. That's fine with me. <IP_ADDRESS> 21:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
By the by, I'd love for you to explain why Emerson, Lake and Palmer performing classical pieces on rock instruments in the seventies is prog rock, but The Who doing it in 1967 isn't prog rock. Or don't you hold that opinion? <IP_ADDRESS> 21:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
* I propose that there is a brief discussion of Concept albums as an aspect of Progressive Rock, and a link to the Concepts album page, where the Who and their albums are more appropriately listed.
* I would like concurrences or disagreements from one of the people who have been key to getting this article upgraded to its current "B" status, so that we can move on and gain "A" status. MarkCertif1ed 06:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* Discussion edited for relevance MarkCertif1ed 10:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Rock opera has been a part of this article for years, since long before either you or I got here. There's a reason for that. Genesis, The Who, Jethro Tull, Rush, Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, Styx, Electric Prunes, Dream Theatre, etc. all produced rock operas. So, unless you want me to tackle the lead of this article next with my references and citations, let it go. <IP_ADDRESS> 18:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Is that the first time references and citations have been used as a threat on Wikipedia? Question for the proponent: what are the five most notable rock operas in the "mid-1970s peak of Progressive Rock"? I can think of plenty of concept albums, but not rock operas; however, I invite you to convince me, if you're of a mind to do so. ShaneCarey 19:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* Of the bands you mention, only 2 are core, and each produced a single example - both of which are just as commonly known as Concept albums. Pink Floyd's release was after the Core period, as was Rush's. Zappa cannot under any circumstances be considered as typical of the Prog Rock genre - in my humble opinion, of course.
* Dream Theater are Prog Metal, which is different to Prog Rock, Styx, the Electric Prunes and The Who are not Prog Rock - these are bald facts for which no citation is even required!
* This heavily underscores my *opinion* that rock opera is not central to Progressive Rock and its development - indeed, it suggests that rock opera is merely a single influence among many that went into the melting pot. Hardly a defining characteristic in my opinion. I'm going to get that textbook you keep plugging to find out what compelling evidence it has to the contrary.
* Again, I urge you to read the guidelines before someone complains about your inappropriate behaviour.
* Have a nice day. MarkCertif1ed 20:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
You have a nice day, too. Please do get that textbook and see what section they put their write-up on The Who in. Just as uk.real.com does, it conflates Art Rock and Progressive Rock, and places The Who in that section due to their work in the rock opera form. They picked that chapter instead of the British Invasion or Psychedelic Rock or Hard Rock, etc. You appear to want this article to be only about "Prog", which is what your beloved tricky time-signature bands of the mid-seventies fall under. Progressive Rock is a broader genre than that, despite your attempts at revisionism. Here's yet another source for you: Amazon.com Endless Wire Look what it says towards the bottom. Now, why on earth would progressive rock be there, I wonder? And here and here. Isn't that odd. How about Tommy at Allmusic and Quadrophenia at Allmusic and Endless Wire at Allmusic. Look what it says under "styles". University text books, uk.real.com, Amazon.com and Allmusic all seem to think rock opera falls under progressive rock. It's not some big conspiracy. Here's a progressive rock class from Colorado University: MUSC 5832-001 American Music: Progressive Rock Here's an excerpt: Week 4 (2/6): 60s Psychedelic Rock II: The Nice, Pink Floyd, Soft Machine, The Moody Blues, Procol Harum, The Who, Deep Purple Yes, those are all progressive rock bands, by the acknowledged broader definition that you're railing against. Here's another link:. Look who's there. I could do this all day. Notable rock operas from the mid-seventies include Tarkus, A Passion Play, Quadrophenia, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars and 2112. Just because artists like Bowie and The Who played music that wouldn't be classified as progressive doesn't mean they never played it. Thanks for reading. <IP_ADDRESS> 21:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Just because The Who sometimes played progressive rock doesn't mean that Quadrophenia exemplifies rock operas as characteristic of Progressive Rock. I'm not convinced by your examples -- not all are generally agreed to be rock operas, and not all are notable enough to typify the genre. If you were to forget for a moment how important it is to you to prove that The Who were a progressive rock band, would you really be so insistent that adding the "rock opera" clause is so much more descriptive of the genre than letting "concept albums" cover it?
That said, I acknowledge my mistake in stepping into the middle of this argument. Unless you have some reason to want me involved, I apologize for the intrusion. ShaneCarey 22:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* Rest of argument removed - the differences between the two parties have been resolved, even though we both stand by our opinions. This has been taken into account, and a proposed new "Proto-Prog" section will be put forward for discussion that will take both points of view into account with factual references.
"New" History section
I find the History section might be the weakest part of the article as it stands now. The first two paragraphs of the subsection "Precursors" lack references and look to me too far from the subject. I would consider starting this subsection at the current third paragraph. The subsection "Early bands" has even bigger problems. References to minor, obscure and non-notable bands flourish, but the reader finds nothing about Genesis, King Crimsom, and other 'majors'. We then find a first reference to Genesis in the next section (Ascending popularity) only to be told that Phil Collins formed a group called Brand X ?!? I'll wait for some thoughts, but I suggest to rework this (perhaps some good material was lost in the article's restructuration which we should retrieve). --Childhood's End 20:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* I'm all for 'tightening' up the articles and references, but you must be careful when you make decisions about what you regard as 'minor, obscure, and non-notable bands'. Many of these groups were the true originators, certainly not Genesis, Crimson and other 'majors'. All of these bands without exception took their ideas from the 'minor' bands, and claimed the credit because of their fame. Let's have true history, not history as some would wish it to be. I'm not suggesting that's your motive, but I hope you're aware of the danger of the fame trap.DaveEx 10:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* I completely agree - Crimson is arguably where it all began, ie, ask most Prog fans or read any book, and ITCOTCK will be referred to as the first (sometimes grudgingly). What happened before that album should be documented - but the impact it had should be made clear. "Court" is revolutionary in many ways, and musically signifies a new genre. The ingredients, of course, came from elsewhere (chicken and egg).
* The history section is not wonderful as it stands - the bit between the Precursors and the Early bands is notably missing. I think that should be a new section - suggestions for a snappy title?
* This section should include the obvious; The Nice and The Moody Blues. After that, most people have their pet ideas of who were most important - this is a can of worms. I actually agree that the Who were important, but so were Tomorrow, Touch, Organisation (later Kraftwerk), Sun Ra, Procul Harum, Kaleidoscope, The Zombies, 13th Floor Elevators, Electric Prunes, The Byrds, Buffalo Springfield, Silver Apples, Fifty Foot Hose, White Noise, Graham Bond's Organisation (not the German group, but the group who probably used the Mellotron first), Johnny Almonds Music Machine... the list goes on.
* Since there seems to be a propensity towards creating lists, maybe we should start tables of lists under the article sections - this would keep them out of the articles themselves, and ensure that Prog Rock fans see their favourite artists mentioned? Or am I being too indulgent? :o) MarkCertif1ed 12:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* I'm content with that description of 'Court of the Crimson King' as being a defining moment in the realisation of the genre, as far as the public masses are concerned. This holds true for me, as long as the 'chicken and egg' scenario you refer to in your fine and thoughtful paragraph is given proper due. The point to emphasise is, "Court" may have seemed revolutionary, but without that egg? Crimson would not have existed in that form, without bands like 1-2-3, and that's also true of Yes and The Nice/ELP in particular. But in the public mind, it certainly was Crimson's very public entrance that announced the arrival of the genre. At least sticking to that solid fact could help us root the article on solid foundations, instead of being sidetracked as much as it has been by peripheral concerns - including mine! If we give full credence to the influences that led to Prog, then full attention to the influence it had in the latter part of the article, then the main body of the article could be given - properly - to the bands who truly constituted the genre. DaveEx 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* Snappy title? How about using Mojo's article on 1-2-3? 'The Birth of Prog'? Could add some more group info in that new section too. Vanman404 14:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* Funnily enough, I've been considering exactly that on my talk page brain dump. The only reservation I have is that there seems to be a fairly popular feeling that Prog was born well before its more generally accepted birthdate. Still, that counts as a perfectly acceptable vote for - unless Mojo have an issue with another site using their title!
* Not sure that more group info is needed, though, as you'd find that on the groups' pages.
* I think it might be helpful to split "Core" (Crimson, ELP, Genesis, Yes) from the rest of the 1st wave (VDGG, Floyd, Tull, Gong, etc.) - but not sure if this constitutes POV or OR material. I think it's reasonable and without contention - and can be verified. It's just not documented as such, anywhere that I know of. MarkCertif1ed 14:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
* The point about the 'Birth of Prog' title is that 1-2-3 had much to do with that birth. There should be more reference to the influence the group had. Yet instead, reference to the group was deleted along the way among the edit wars. Note my comments on the trap of putting too much store on 'famous' groups. DaveEx 01:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I completely agree with Mark's "chicken and egg" paragraph above. Emphasis should be given to ITCOTCK. No matter what we think hapenned before that or lead to that, notability must prevail in an encyclopedic article, and 1-2-3 and anything else that happened before ITCOTCK should be given no more than a short paragraph that sums up an idea about various influences. Core content should address King Crimson, Genesis, Yes and so on. --Childhood's End 20:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
* I don't disagree with that point of view. I already said (above) that I think the King Crimson entrance was where the public perception lies. As long as 1-2-3 are given a fair mention for their influence on Yes/Crimson/Nice/ELP etc, that's fine. Read my earlier comments - the 'core' is fine by me, and draws the article back into proper focus. DaveEx 20:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
* Agreed on the essence. As for 1-2-3, I could also agree, but only provided there is a reliable source to support that they did have such influence on these bands (unless this is not challenged by anyone). --Childhood's End 20:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been dumping ideas on this on my personal Talk Page - I think that the "Precursors" section is good, because it shows a historical rooting of the progression of music that concentrates on the innovations that later became incorporated into Progressive Rock. A single "History" section would get clogged up with all kinds of things in no time - I think it would be better to split it down and keep it specific.
What is needed, in my view, is a "Proto-Prog" section that will discuss the contributions of bands from about 1965 onwards (unless anyone can think of previous related innovations in rock), that will include references (not mentions!) of The Moody Blues, The Nice, The Beatles and as many bands (and their specific, verifiable) innovations that are relevant. This will probably include The Who, Tomorrow, Silver Apples, Fifty Foot Hose and White Noise among others.
I need some kind of source for 1-2-3, as I'm not familiar with their music, and information is really hard to find. All Google found for me was a single Wikipedia article with no online links, and somewhat dubious article references to what, on the surface, looks like journaslitic POV. The only other thing I could find was this; http://www.feenstra.co.uk/bands/ianellis/ianellis.htm, which isn't conclusive either. It's a bit difficult to credit a band when there are no recordings - the earliest seems to date from 1968, and that was a Clouds release called "Scrapbook". I can already think of more progressive precursors, such as the Byrds, Moodies, Beatles, (Graham Bond's) Organisation - particularly the latter, who were the (documented) first to use a Mellotron on the album "There's a Bond Between Us" in 1965.
Do you know of any recordings of 1-2-3?
Thanks MarkCertif1ed 11:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Little Tragedies
M.V.E.i. insists to have a reference to Little Tragedies (some Russian band that sings in Russia, in Russian) along the likes of Porcupine Tree and The Flower Kings in the 90's-200's section. I find that the contrast in notability is shocking and I tried to arrange a compromise by moving the reference to this band to the Festivals section, but he re-added LT again to the 90's-2000's. I suppose the right way to go is to settle this here with community feedback. Any thoughts? --Childhood's End 20:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* If you don't mind, i'll copy here what i said on your talk page, where i bring up the points:
* I appreciate the cleanup you do now in the progressive rock article, nevertheless, there's something i dont agree with.
* 1. Moving the image of Little Tragedies to the festivals doesnt fit the section, why? Because the image was not taken at a festival but after a band's concert.
* 2. I on purpouse putted them to the 90's-00's section. Why?
* a) They represent a "third-wave" 90's band.
* b) They are the most famous prog-band in Russia and one of the most famous in Eastern Europian prog-bands. and by that...
* c) They represent both the East-European and the not-English-speaking bands (and the genre is very alive their, it's just that the editors of the article in the English Wikipedia, well, most, think it exists only in the English speaking countries). M.V.E.i. 20:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* Ok; as for the image, I would actually delete it (no reason to have an image of Little Tragedies in this article) but I would tolerate it in the Festivals subsection failing any more relevant image. As for the ref in the 90's-00's subsection, I oppose it because i- the other bands mentioned are way more notable whereas Little Tragedies has low notability, and ii- there are already too many band refs in this article, and including every non-notable bands that all editors like for some reason would make this article look ridiculous. Finally, the English Wikipedia is... English. This band sings in Russian. Perhaps there are also famous bands in Japan that sing in Japanese and so on, this would be no reason to include them. Sorry but we'd all like to see more text about our favourite bands, but a line must be drawn somewhere... --Childhood's End 23:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
* The images adds alot, images make the article look better, and they represent. They are more notable then all the third-wave bands noticed, the only one more famous on the list are Porcupine Tree. Maybe there are to many band referenced, but Little Tragedies should be noticed. Law notability? One of the most importent East-European progressive rock bands. There is no law that only English information should be entered here. They are not my favorite band (though they are really exellent), my favorites are the classic Russian rock and Pink Floyd, it's just that i know how notable and importent Little Tragedies are. M.V.E.i. 12:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
* We have 3 images as of now; Pink Floyd, Yes, and... Little Tragedies (!?). Images are usually used to visually represent the most important topics of an article. Please read Images. --Childhood's End 14:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
* In East Europe they have a status almost like Pink Floyd's in the west, and bigger then Yes's in the west. M.V.E.i. 16:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
* Even if this was true, the perspective has to be worldwide, not Western European... --Childhood's End 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
* In the third wave list their are many bands who are for example only American known. M.V.E.i. 18:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The whole 90s-00s section is in desparate need of a re-write to change it into a meaningful discussion in an agreed Wikipedia style, rather than yet another list.
I'm of the opinion that this should be two sections, as Prog Rock has become even more popular in the new millenium.
Once the section is properly written, maybe there should be some sort of list to follow it - but this list should be absolutely pertinent to what's popular and innovative.
Maybe user M.V.E.i. could start an article on Eastern European and/or Russian Prog that this page could link to? MarkCertif1ed 12:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
* I agree with everything you say, but not shure about the last one. First, now i lack the time to write it (while i had i created 14 articles, of them 13 connected to Rock music, and 11 of them connected to prog-rock). Second, it's an article about progressive rock in general so... why not to combine in it information about the whole world and scenes? But you are right about the 90's-00's section. I mean, you have nowhere to insert 00's prog bands unless it's prog metal, and the 90's once you have to add to the third wave list and we get a situation that what we have on the 90's is nothing but a list. The Russian rock article had the same problem, and i did there a thing that worked. I splitted the 90's-00's section to two sections: about the 90's, and about the 00's. Offcourse i re-wrote both of the sections and expanded. Anyway, it looks real good now :-) There's no reason why not to do that here, i mean, i proved it is good and that it works. M.V.E.i. 16:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Original use of "progressive rock" in Britain
deleted post for use in new suggested article.
MelodyMaker1969.2 18:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Source?
The word "Progressive" was used in conjunction with the "Cool" jazz movement of the late 1950s, then later applied to Blues bands, such as John Mayall's Bluesbreakers in the late 1960s - at which point in time, the word "Progressive" when applied to popular music became very fashionable. For example, the numerous DECCA "Progressive Blues" compilations, Johnny Winter's "Progressive Blues Experiment" and the compilation "Wowie Zowie, the world of Progressive Music", which included, among others, the fledgling Genesis.
I have yet to see an article that refers to "Progressive Rock" as a genre until around 1976, when it was used in articles on Punk music to describe the "progressive rock dinosaurs".
I will look at the album you refer to - although 1968 is too early to apply to the core Progressive Rock bands, and, as I said, the term "progressive" was common currency. It may be worth elaborating on this, if there is further referrable evidence from the time.
You've edited out the original question, which leaves this entirely without context - and a main point. Please refrain from editing discussions, as that loses continuity and focus.
Thanks MarkCertif1ed 12:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Rock Opera and "A Quick One While He's Away"
Rock opera and "A Quick One While He's Away" deserve mention in this article per Stuessy, Joe. Rock and Roll: Its History and Stylistic Development, 5th ed., Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Prentice Hall, 2003. ISBN 0-13-099370-0, as well as uk.real.com, Amazon.com, Allmusic.com and progarchives.com. If you're going to excise The Who from the Precursers section for being "Proto-Prog" then you might as well excise the Beatles, too. Both of their contributions are crucial. According to progarchives.com they are both proto-prog. That's why they're in the Precursers section. Proto-Prog is not the same as Not-Prog. Proto-Prog is a progressive rock subgenre per progarchives.com. Not-Prog would be something like Chuck Berry or Aerosmith, not The Who and the Beatles. Failing to mention the track that progarchives.com calls "the first prog epic" makes this a weaker article. Not a stronger one. <IP_ADDRESS> 19:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
* ProgArchives does not call this the first prog epic - the author of the Who's biography (who I know very well) states that it could be considered as such - but offers no explanation as to why this might be the case, or any evidence - ie, it is purely his opinion. Biographies on Prog Archives are notoriously personal and opinionated - as I stated above.
* None of those other links confirm what you're saying - the evidence you give is inconclusive. There are vague listings, most of which confuse Prog Rock with progressive Rock music - see my discussion.
* Proto-Prog means "before Prog" - prototype Prog, or in other words, not Prog. Ask the guys there - the distinction is clear. Prog Archives says this:
Those links directly mention rock opera as falling under the umbrella of progressive rock. The evidence I give is as conclusive as it gets. Rock opera is progressive rock. See below for more. <IP_ADDRESS> 19:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
* There are rock operas which can fall under the umbrella of progressive rock, but certainly not all of them. At best, I would agree that 'most' rock operas used to be, or even are still, progressive rock works. --Childhood's End 19:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Proto-Prog definition
Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock. The late 60's was a predominately experimental period for music. These bands were moving in a stream that eventually led to prog. The influence could have come from new sophisticated forms of writing and playing music, recording techniques, new instruments and vocal harmonies to name a few. Some of these bands became progressive rock bands themselves others did not.
* Following a recent conversation away from this discussion, I have edited some points which were not directly helpful to the discussion from this section with the agreement of the other party - who has an open invitation to correct me if my edits are misplaced. MarkCertif1ed 10:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Proposed new information for the Introduction
I propose that there is a small paragraph indiciating the difference between Progressive Rock or "Prog", and Progressive Rock Music - with a link to a new article on the latter.
This will explain briefly the difference between song-structure bands that improvised, like Led Zeppelin et al and those that worked outside of these standard structures and composed instrumental sections - ie, Prog Rock bands.
This may help to clarify misconceptions that people often have about Progressive Rock (or Prog). Comments and thoughts? MarkCertif1ed 19:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
* (cuts made by MarkCertif1ed Sept. 19, '07 ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Childhoodsend (talk • contribs) 15:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
* The fact that prog rock artists find inspiration in some classical composers does not make these classical composers progressive rock artists. Similarly, the fact that Dream Theatre or Genesis may have found inspiration in some works by The Who does not necessarily make The Who a progressive rock band. People like to believe that because a musical piece is original, it falls into 'progressive rock'. But hey, I must confess - what can legitimately be labelled progressive rock according to me is quite restrained (even Pink Floyd is out; they're no more than psychedelic to me). --Childhood's End 19:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
* I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The aim of the Precursers section, as I understand it, is to illustrate the musical innovations that led to what we call Progressive Rock. Progressive Rock didn't spring up out of nowhere. The Precursers section is filling in those gaps. It is not the aim of that section to define an artist as Progressive Rock. I don't think it is doing that. That section is filling in the gaps between the rock 'n' roll of artists like Chuck Berry and the Progressive Rock of a band like Genesis. There are a lot of stepping stones between those two points, and the Precursers section is touching on some of the more noteworthy ones. I think those rock artists are more relevant to the article than the musicians and composers from the beginning of the Precursers section, but there's no reason to not include them both. I believe it presents a fuller picture, making the article more informative. <IP_ADDRESS> 21:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
* Following a recent conversation away from this discussion, I have edited some points which were not directly helpful to the discussion from this section with the agreement of the other party - who has an open invitation to correct me if my edits are misplaced. MarkCertif1ed 10:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
1-2-3
don't know who exactly took out the piece on 1-2-3, but it's totally wrong that this was done. It's a fact that The Nice/ELP, Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, etc would not have taken the road the did without the influence of this group. What do you think MOJO meant by 'The Birth of Prog'? Check up on the history before deleting please. It seems my comments above went unheeded - what's the point of discussion if it's only an excuse for imposing your own point of view? DaveEx 00:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
* Is it a verifiable fact or a POV? There were plenty of other influences on the above groups: Yes came from a different background to Crimson and Genesis (who admit to spending months in a barn listening to ITCOTCK before releasing Trespass). Yes' background is in standard 1960s hard rock, with some Beatles and Buffalo Springfield influences (particularly the vocal harmonies).
* I couldn't find any interviews with Keith Emerson acknowledging this source of inspiration either - I'm not dismissing the band, we just need some facts here, as verifying this band seems next to impossible, and based on anecdotal references. MarkCertif1ed 11:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
* I'm also in need of a reliable source to support 1-2-3's alleged influence. Provided there is one, I see no problem in ackowledging it through a short mention in the article. --Childhood's End 13:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
* Note your comments, but check the Clouds page and also the Clouds website - there are plenty of references to the influence, Q magazine, Mojo, David Bowie, several books etc. Regards the bands you mention, Crimson, The Nice etc watched the early Marquee shows. Check out what the Marquee programme said. Yes in particular were very much based on 1-2-3, taking other people's songs and making epics out of them - that's exactly what 1-2-3 did. Yes were a support band at the Marquee, doing covers of Beatles' songs, then even did Simon Garfunkel's 'America' straight after hearing 1-2-3 do it first. Keith Emerson didn't realise the potential of organ as a lead instrument till he saw Billy Ritchie standing and taking the lead role. That meant David O'List's days were numbered,though you won't ever hear Keith or Rick say it (though Blinky Davison did). 'Nut Rocker' also came from 1-2-3. Incidentally, the title of Jethro Tull's song 'Living in the past' comes from a line in the Clouds Scrapbook. Ask Terry Ellis. DaveEx 14:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It'd be good to have online documented evidence of this - especially period docs - do you have articles you could scan and make available via an online file share or website?
The anecdotal stuff is all very well - but if people are likely to deny it, then that's not very helpful.
Without easy access, the references aren't very helpful, and it's difficult to get a response out of Terry Ellis - although I could ask Barrie Barlow :o)
I'm not trying to put obstacles in the way - rather I'm trying to get evidence together so that Joe Public could verify it, if he'd never heard of 1-2-3 or Clouds.<IP_ADDRESS> 17:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
* I do understand and appreciate what you're saying, and some of the things I mentioned are very much anecdotal, but the articles and books are there in the public domain, and as I said, they are visible as references in the Clouds (60s rock band) wikipedia entry. You can see them and read them on the clouds website, www.cloudsmusic.com too. Also check with Matthew Hartington, he's the sponsor of the page, and has more direct input than I do on the subject. Though there again, I was at the Marquee in 67 and saw all this happen. Though of course, that's anecdotal again! DaveEx 18:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the Wikipedia entry, but found it equally anecdotal. I also checked Emerson's entry in Wikipedia - which seem to have been mainly copied from VH1 or similar, with a Clouds reference pasted in at what looked like a good spot. On the surface, it looks like a wind-up, as Billy Ritchie is emphatically not as widely regarded a keyboardist (however unfair it may seem) as Banks, Wright, Wakeman or Emerson.
I found quite a bit of stuff - but nothing to verify anything to do with 1-2-3, which is the main area of interest, as this point rests largely with their musical output. I can't see 1-2-3 listed in the Marquee club's records, although they are listed in the Dumferline ballroom's - but information is scant.
Clouds are listed in the Marquee records - in 1968, of course, but 1-2-3 don't appear to be listed. The Nice and Emerson's former band, Gary Farr and the T-Bones appear numerous times - of course! This is odd, as there is evidence that 1-2-3 not only played there, but played regularly - including supporting (and band members jamming with) Jimi Hendrix.
Of course, http://www.cloudsmusic.com is the richest source - but obviously is going to have some bias. There are interesting scraps - but really, what's needed are recordings, or verification from influenced people that this was indeed a source.
More of my original research and internal musings may be found on my Talk Page. I'd like to assemble more, to get at the facts; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MarkCertif1ed#1-2-3_.2F_Clouds MarkCertif1ed 19:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
* The Wikipedia entry is far from anecdotal, it's completely referenced, and to a higher standard than this article here for a start. It's not my baby, but that's how I see it. And you're wrong about Billy Ritchie too, unless you discount the printed comments of David Bowie, Ed Bicknell (Dire Straits) etc etc, isn't that what you would call 'influenced people'? Any 'home' website is bound, as you say, to be biased, but the articles and book extracts are real enough, and if you read the content, you'll see plenty of references to 1-2-3. Didn't you read Bowie's letter to the Record Mirror for instance? As for the Marquee club records, they are at the mercy of the siteholder, and you can see quite clearly that the saturday night spots where 1-2-3 appeared have all been excised. 1-2-3 were a group who elicited either great admiration or outrage (and if you see websites like Amazon etc, they still produce wild reactions on both sides. Doesn't the fact that this is the case even after so many years, tell you something? Because the music was so far ahead of it's time, only musicians appreciated it, and even then, there was a lot of jealousy. But I was one of the musicians who did understand what they were trying to do, which is why I've 'stuck up' for them since I found these entries. They never got the credit they deserved, only in recent times - the past 10 years or so - has there been any acknowledgement. I certainly would totally oppose any removal of the reference. That to me would be pandering to the 'fame' syndrome. The fact is, most of these bands were not original at all, at least in the concept of what they did. Their achievement - and this applies to Emerson as well - was to take the idea and develop it further than the original could have done. DaveEx 02:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* RE THE MOCK MARQUEE
PS. This site calls itself the Marquee, but it's actually nothing to do with the Marquee club, it's purely a fan running a Marquee memories site, now that's what I CALL bias.....obviously, the feelings that 1-2-3 generated in this particular fan run deep, the wrong way. But as I said, doesn't that tell you something? When someone deliberately censors entries, they are trying to make their own version of history. What did I say about history being dependent on who was telling it? This is a particularly blatant example, the fact is, 1-2-3 were a very big group at the Marquee, only during a few months of 1967, but they created quite a stir, as the Marquee programmes make clear. This kind of negative rubbish and false reporting is one of the reasons 1-2-3 need support. The TRUTH needs support, and the facts are there. Read the entries again. DaveEx 02:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* OK, it's agreed that sources can be flawed, hence my overall (natural) suspicion - and there are interesting fragments of real evidence around, but these are few and far between. The wild reactions on Amazon are very interesting - Prog seems to be full of such controversies!
* The Bowie letter is interesting confirmation of his admiration for the band, but his description of the music is pidgin-academic and hence untrustworthy - "chromatic, quarter-tone and choral harmonics" confuses musical terms (I think he means harmonies, not harmonics, which are something entirely different - and tonal intervals and choral styles are different entities), and is not very descriptive - it's too "fluffy". Bowie doesn't state categorically that his music is influenced by 1-2-3, and it's hard to tell by listening to Bowie's early work, as there is no reference source.
* I go into this in much more depth on my talk page, and there are many other bands that deserve credit, and my current research suggests that the notable ones are Fifty Foot Hose (US) and Delia Derbyshire (UK) - but they're more in the electronica and experimental fields. The symphonic, dramatic and acid-jazz aspects are intriguing - especially the latter, as acid-jazz seemed to spring from rock bands who were influenced by Miles/modern (progressive) jazz and the avant-garde composers - and also what was happening in the US.
* It is difficult to ascertain exactly who influenced the bands we do know about, like the Nice, etc - and the Marquee link is clear between many of the bands I'd consider important (Floyd, Graham Bond, East of Eden, etc.,).
* The evidence is still only anecdotal, though - I went through Cloud's website with a reasonably fine-toothed comb, and, although Clouds' music can be verified through recordings, it's the 1-2-3 stuff that's important to this article/discussion, because of the timing - and the one or two factual things that come out of the woodwork are very intriguing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MarkCertif1ed
* I'm not removing stuff at the moment - I'd rather get the Precursors and Proto-Prog sections completed in essence and submit those, integrating the current references in a way that doesn't come across as dubious; I will also tidy up these entries to ensure that the overall format is coherent and matches Wikipedia's style guidelines.
* Comments on my edits will be welcomed. MarkCertif1ed 07:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* I appreciate your thoughtful approach, but I disagree about the 1-2-3 evidence being anecdotal - several major publications are quite specific about the influence, and all of that is on the website. Unless you mean that the bands themselves (who were influenced) haven't owned up to it. Now seriously, are they likely to?!!!! But plenty of fairly recent commentary refers directly to that influence. Then again, I'm not making a case for a vastly expanded paragraph on 1-2-3, the present one seems almost ok to me. The only other thing I'd personally add is a direct reference to the bands they influenced, Yes, The Nice/ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Family, Soft Machine. All of that really happened at the Marquee in that short spell, it really was revolutionary. The music business thought so too, that's how they got signed by Epstein/Nems. Unfortunately, the music press didn't do their job at the time, and that's why we're having this debate. Plus of course, the lack of fame. Ultimately, this HAS to be an article about the famous bands, with the 1-2-3's of this world consigned to brief acknowledgements. That's life.
PS, I wasn't making a claim that Bowie was influenced, I was pointing out that he was impressed. That kind of evidence may not be directly relevant to 'influential', but it strongly suggests that something different and revolutionary was going on. Adding all these fragments may be somewhat anecdotal, but it sure adds up. And as I said, there are plenty of direct citations if you look closely enough. The only thing you won't find are comments from the bands who took the ideas in the first place. I wouldn't think that's very common, but perhaps that's what you're looking for. If you are, it's unrealistic. Most guys like that tend to quote influences out of their own sphere, eg, rock musicians praising jazz guys (usually obscure and black). DaveEx 10:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* What I'm really looking for are recordings - demo tapes... I won't say bootlegs, as obviously, no-one sensible or law-abiding would listen to a bootleg... but any recording of their music that confirms what the band were playing in 1967 - or better still, 1966.
* The reported musical evidence is scant - interpretations of other's songs isn't too much to go on, especially as that's the core engine of many jazz bands, and one can only assume that pop groups also experimented with arrangements. I am struggling to think of pop/rock bands from 1966 or prior who elaborated on other's songs in such a fashion - although the Byrds do spring to mind.
* As far as the harmonies go, Bowies comments are hard to accept. Clearly the group had some kind of jazz influence, and probably used modal harmonies, or possibly chromatic-sounding harmonies verging on the dischordant - but so did the Fugs and the Ethix in 1965-6 - and probably other psychedelic bands. To go on to talk about open harmonies is downright misleading - chromatic (and even more quarter-tone) harmony is close by definition.
* I'd really like to know where 1-2-3 got their influences and ideas from too, for continuity - maybe the remaining members would be forthcoming (or even have sound desk tapes from the Marquee or even 2-track demos?). Are you in contact with them? If it turns out that their influences just happened to be the same as those cited by later bands, then we're onto something.
* This is simply the level of detail I think in - not what will end up in the article - which is why I prefer to use my talk page for such extended discussions about what will undoubtedly end up as a passing reference. The point is to get at the truth and give verifiable credit where it is due and leave no room for doubt. It's not an impossible task. MarkCertif1ed 11:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* It's very thorough (what you're trying to achieve), but it's asking a lot, and I don't see that thoroughness expressed anywhere else in Wiki either. Not that it isn't a laudable notion, I'm all for uncovering the truth. As for what 1-2-3 were like, I heard it. It was mainly well-known songs changed completely, new melodies in places, different time-signatures for pieces within each song, new pieces written in, lots of improvisational playing, jazz-like, you could say, though it was definitely rock, not jazz. I'd say that was one of the main things to say about Billy Ritchie, out of (what I would say were)the three leading players, Emerson, Wakeman, Ritchie, Ritchie was the only genuine Rock organist. And Harry was a very Jazzy drummer. Though it all merged and became something else, it had that bluesy base. The songs were mainstream a lot of the time, 'She's not there', 'Sweet Talkin Guy', but, as Bowie said about his song, they were changed radically, yet retained their heart and soul. This was a virtual blueprint for a band like Yes, but though they were trying to copy it, it came out differently somehow. As has been said, they took the pieces, but couldn't add the soul. Yes (in my opinion) lacked good taste and musical sense sometimes. And King Crimson was too self-indulgent (some of the time). None of these bands ended up sounding like 1-2-3. But it's crystal clear where the ideas came from, that's the point. I knew the guys back then, but I don't have any contact now. Matthew Hartington might be worth approaching, he sponsored the Clouds page. And I seem to remember a reference on the website about a live recording of 1-2-3 playing 'America' at the Marquee. Now that would be interesting to hear after all these years. DaveEx 14:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
* 1-2-3 Live
Just heard the America track, great memories of the Marquee, and easy to see where The Nice/ELP/Yes/Crimson came from. Where they got the song from was par for the course for this group. Also Billy's virtual tracks - if that isn't genius, I don't know what is. DaveEx 09:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
* How can I get to buy 1-2-3 live? Can you help with that? Vanman404 08:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Early uses of 'progressive' to describe rock
deleted post for use in separate article as suggested - concerns difference between terms and possible separate pages.
MelodyMaker1969.2 22:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
All I've done so far is to elaborate on what was already here - what most people understand as Prog Rock.
The whole "what came before" is still in progress, and as you say, much of what was labelled by some as progressive music had plenty of other labels too, such as underground, art music, jazz-rock, folk-rock, blues-rock, psychedelic rock, etc.
Progressive Rock was an extremely uncommon term in the 1960s, and was only widely used in the 1970s. You also make this very clear by linking this term to the 1960s progressive music "movement", as opposed to Prog Rock (the shortened term is quite convenient, as most understand it to mean something in itself).
It may be worth clarifying the difference - but this use is so transient (ie, few people use progressive rock in that sense any more) that it hardly seems worth it, especially given that no-one has yet found defining characteristics for 1990s or 2000s Prog Rock, or done any work on the second half of the article to stop it reading like a load of lists and more like something useful and interesting.
Personally, I think there should be a separate article called "progressive rock music" that can link to this page (Prog is a type of progressive rock music - the ultimate type, one might say!), and this can define the late 1960s-early 1970s "movement" and all the various offshoots. There are so many bands and so many approaches to rock music that this would be quite a lengthy article. I look forward to reading it. MarkCertif1ed 17:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Rush in first paragraph?
They were there in the past, but recently they have been removed. Now, I don't have a source off hand, but I think they deserve mentioning in the opening paragraph at least for their longevity, if more due to a large fan base and a collection of classic prog albums. Does anyone else have an opinion? --Joshua Boniface 01:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
* According to Progressive Rock Reconsidered, edited by Kevin Holm-Hudson, Rush's prog period started around 1976 and ended around 1979. It is noted that when Rush began in the late 1960s, it was primarily influenced by Cream and Jimi Hendrix and briefly turned into a cover band for same. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 00:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
* I listened to 2112, which is supposed to be their first true prog album. The title track certainly has prog influence, but they seem more influenced by metal. The lack of keyboards certainly argues against a strict prog definition, either. I also think that they come across as right-wing even if they intended not to. Repeating "Freedom isn't free" over and over again makes it hard to see them as Libertarian. I read about "2112" and wanted to be open to the song being not on the side of the guys in the temple, but the structure of the song makes it difficult to hear it any other way, and that's coming from someone who has both admired and written stories of someone who has gone up against the system and lost. The guitar guy comes across as an easily dismissable bug in the works.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 04:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Clarity in 80's revival
Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but Genesis clearly did not "follow" Asia's lucrative example in 1983. Genesis had been changing ever since losing Peter Gabriel, and soon after, Steve Hackett. The 1978 album "And Then There Were Three" clearly shows the band striving for shorter songs and a more accessible style. Genesis' breakthrough on the American charts was the song "Misunderstanding" from the Duke album, and the next album, Abacab, accelerated their breaktrhough with songs like the title track, "Man on the Corner", and "No Reply At All". Phil's monster hit "In The Air Tonight" also helped their transition, and all this was before Asia released their album. Furthermore, other prog bands like Yes were also clearly transitioning in the late 70s/early 80s, or floundering (anybody remember ELP's "Love Beach"? Anybody WANT TO?) If anything, Asia was the result of prog bands' transitioning to more commercially successful music, not the precursor of it. Can we consider a rewrite of this section?
Macsnafu 19:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
* Love Beach isn't THAT bad. It has a few good tracks. The biggest problem with it is that it's mostly retread. The best track is a rearrangmenet of a classical piece. --Scottandrewhutchins 19:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Minor Change: 'polyrhythm' to 'polymeter'
In the section about musical characteristics, subsection rhythm, I changed layering polyrhythms to layering different meters (polymeter) and linked the article. Also I added '(metric modulation)' after 'time-signatures changes'. First, layering polyrhythms was obviously a pleonasm, as poly implies layering. Second, there is a distinction between polyrhythm and polymeter: polyrhythm can refer to non-tactus-preserving-polymeter as found in classical music, or it can refer the layering of different rhythms which you find absolutely everywhere, e.g. when - in a staight 4/4, one voice sounds 4 4ths and another sounds 1 half note and two 4ths... What is obviously meant is 'tactus-preserving polymeter' when e.g. a 13/8 is played over a 7/8, as in King Crimson's Frame by Frame. - MikeB —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Deleted Entry re 1-2-3
I deleted the entry (by Matthew Hartington) re History of 1-2-3. Sorry Matthew, much as I support your intentions for Clouds/1-2-3, the rather long-winded inclusion here was, I think, far too much for the subject - Progressive Rock. I think enough has been said about 1-2-3 for the purposes of the article. I see you've added the piece to the Clouds talk page, that covers enough ground. DaveEx 06:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The genre of progressive rock listed on 30 Seconds to Mars's wikepedia page
In the wiki page for the band 30 seconds to mars the genre "progressive rock" is listed. I have tried to remove it many times and have given reasons is the discussion page on how it does not fit, but one user is determined that it does and refuses to change it. I would appreciate it if I could get backup on my arguement and have other users to give him convincing proof that he is wrong. Zanders5k 17:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
* Edit: I am moving my response to the 30 Seconds to Mars page, where this discussion rightfully belongs.
* Enfestid 20:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
"a small cut of neo-prog bands catered to a faithful audience"
How silly. This line exists for no reason other than to make it appear that progressive is a relic, old hat, and that its fanbase consists of ultra-traditionalists in their upper 40's. This is ridiculous. I don't see why I should even need to point out the existence of Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, Oceansize, the Mars Volta, Tool, 3, Between the Buried and Me, Opeth, Muse, etc... <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 16:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Subgenres
Why is Jazz Fusion listed in the infobox as both a "stylistic origin" and a "subgenre"? Jazz fusion is most certainly not a subgenres of Progressive rock. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 02:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
* Perhaps not, but it could certainly be argued that jazz fusion and progressive rock often overlapped in the 70s. Dalkaen 01:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
* Oh, I certainly agree with that. But, it cannot be both a "stylistic origin" and a "subgenre". Can it? I do not know of any critic who calls jazz fusion a subgenre of prog rock. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 03:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Swedish Bands??
there is a mention of three notable swedish bands that supposedly "kicked off" the third wave of prog, this is crap, i dont think they are as relevant as to be mentioned as some of the notable third wave bands, since they are not as popular as Dream Theater or Mars Volta, so i'll clean up this section.
* Er, I find they're perfectly notable; you'll see them discussed in progressive rock communities quite frequently. Dalkaen 01:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Deletion of relevant and sourced material
There is an editor who keeps deleting Scaruffi's comments on the decline of prog in the mid-1970s. here. This is a well-documented part of the history of prog and should be in there for completeness. If there is a good reason not to have this section in the article, I'm open to argument, but it would be dishonest to pretend it didn't happen, which is the effect of these deletions. Hence, I am bringing this here to achieve a consensus. -- Rodhullandemu (Talk) 13:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
* (I apologize in advance for any English mistakes).
I considered editing this myself in a few weeks (when I'll get my copies of some books on prog for accurate reference) although I never contributed anything to Wikipedia before, except some very minor changes. But that section is disturbing enough for me to want to take the trouble and edit it (I'm not the one deleting it though, never touched it yet). I think practically placing the "blame" for the decline of prog on ELP (that's the impression the reader gets) is very narrow and even naive (not to mention biased). This section completely ignores central factors such as the social context and climate surrounding Progressive Rock and the Punk backlash, the ideology of rock (most explicitly or extremely expressed in the writings of critic Lester Bangs who considered even the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper" pretentious and self indulgent. But rock ideology wasn't limited to Bangs), economic factors that influenced the record companies to perhaps prefer simpler and less expensive music, the changes of policy and structure in radio stations (that became more formatted and demanded 3 minutes hit songs), not to mention just natural change of guards and generation (it was a part of pop music after all, every trend in pop lasts but a decade). This section doesn't mention any of these, although at least the social context is quite well known. Instead it basically scapegoats one band as the "rotten apple" that spoiled it for everyone - it is an opinion I've heard before, but certainly not the only hypothesis. I wouldn't call it "well-documented", nor thorough, deep or comprehensive. Regrading Scaruffi - his book on rock is available online although I'm not sure it's the entire text, but from what I read he is definitely not the most authoritative source on the genre as it takes only a chapter in his book, unlike authors who focused their research on progressive rock. His comments about ELP cited in the article were not part of an attempt by him to analyze what led to the decline in popularity of the genre, but are just his own opinion on ELP in general. And with all due respect there are other, not less qualified and authoritative opinions on ELP's music, such as those of its most meticulous biographer Edward Macan (who is a musicologist and a musician, not less qualified). Scaruffi's utter dismissal of any merit to the entire work of ELP is just his opinion and his understanding or evaluation of the music, an opinion maybe shared by some on this board, but still just an opinion. To cite this as the only expert opinion, taken out of its original context and placed in the context of the decline of prog, does paint a very one-sided picture and in my opinion, also a very superficial analysis.
What I was thinking of doing is not removing Scaruffi's quotes, but rather balance them with quotes from other sources, and most importantly, include reference to other hypotheses, maybe more common and probably more thoroughly researched, regarding the decline. But you know what? On second thought, I'm glad someone had the audacity to simply remove them because it's just not right to take his extreme opinion on ELP and place it in this context in such a way that makes it look almost like a fact that ELP almost single-handedly brought the entire genre down because its music stunk. It just wouldn't meet any academic criteria, would it?
But it'll probably take me months to get the books I need (it's import and it costs). So maybe someone can write some reservations or otherwise make it a bit more balanced? - Debby <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 08:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Festivals
That section should be looked over, it looks messy and essentially like a concealed list. Also, why is only ProgPower USA mentioned? ProgPower started in Europe, after all! Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Keith Goodwin
I tried to provide a citation regarding Keith's involvement with the 1980's progressive rock movement, but this was removed as being "promotional puffery" or whatever. So perhaps someone can help explain how this can be worded so as not to offend anyone as I think it's important to stress Keith Goodwin's impact on this time period. Let me first state that Keith was the press agent for Yes, Black Sabbath, Rod Argent, Vangelis, etc. back in the 1970's. During the 1980's many of the bands mentioned relied on his connections and insight, most notably Marillion. Indeed, on Fish's web site he wrote a lengthy eulogy and provided, what I thought was, all the information necessary to cover the original request for "citation needed" (see Fish: a eulogy to Keith Goodwin ). At least a dozen bands of that period would happily cite Keith Goodwin as representing them and having a major influence on the level of success that each managed to receive. Keith also wrote the foreward in the book that is mentioned on this site (and many prog rock web sites) "The Progressive Rock Files" by Jerry Lucky, as well as being mentioned within this book during the timeline of bands it refers to. Perhaps I have not approached writing this succinctly within the bounds of approval of others, so I instead ask that someone else try their hand at this. Or coach me into what someone needs when they say "citation needed". I'm open to learning, especially as I think it's a travesty that there is a glaring omission on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 23:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
* I think the issue is that the article is about the music and not how the bands achieved fame. Press agents etc abound in the music industry, before and after prog, without being mentioned here, so it would have to be shown that Goodwin was extremely, if not vitally important, to the success of these bands, which I think is the hurdle to be overcome. Compare, say, Max Clifford, with his clients; and then take any other publicist and ask whether s/he is as well-known as his clients. Rare, indeed. You'd have to make a strong case, supported by reliable third-party sources, to put Goodwin into this article. -- Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
* Thanks for responding Rodhullandemu. Fair enough I see your point -- of course there are many others that are involved. I think with respect to that 1980's period, many of those bands mentioned here (and many others not mentioned too) found themselves under the guidance of Keith that was a defining attribute in their success relative to his input. The page I cited is from the lead singer of the most successful of bands from that period: i.e. Fish of Marillion. This is his web site, and that is his account of how critical Keith Goodwin was to their success (as well as many others). Here are a few quotes from Fish:
"There are so many artists out there who would not have received even the slightest acknowledgement or encouragement in their careers without the voice of passion and belief that was Keith Goodwins. Some of us came through; others disappeared in a blaze of obscurity. Keiths integrity was never however questioned." "How do you encompass a range of artists he loved and worked with as diverse as Dusty Springfield/ Stan Kenton/ Vangelis/ Yes/ Black Sabbath and of course Marillion through whom Keith had become one of my best friends, a spiritual guide, a mentor, a teacher and someone whom without which I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say that I would not have become the artist or the person I am today" Of all the bands of that 1980's period, I think this carries a lot of weight. The truth is that some of the other bands achieved a lot more with his involvement. There are other sites that make mention of Keith in this light too: http://www.landmarq.net/lenl/lenl66.htm http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=724 http://www.funtrivia.com/en/Music/Marillion-4414.html I guess my claim is that the reason why the 1980's rock revival made more than a light ripple in the water is because Keith was a diehard that made sure these bands got the best he could offer. I think that is backed up by Jerry Lucky's decision to have Keith write the foreward in his book "The Progressive Rock Files". I am pretty sure that Jerry would say that Keith has as much right, if not more, in appearing on this page -- at least with respect to that 1980's period. Perhaps there is a way to make that reference without it getting as wordy as it became. I tried to keep it short, but a citation was needed. By providing a citation, it became long. Hopefully there's a happy medium that we can agree upon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by <IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 00:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
History
I have not been involved in this article for some time, only to find that the History section is now a disaster area. Who cares so much about "music critic Piero Scaruffi"? He and a few people may think that The Beatles played the larger role in prog rock birth, but that's really giving too much attention to a fringe point of view imo. This section should be focused on King Crimsom, Genesis, Yes and a few others, as it used to be. And I'm not saying this because they're my favourite bands, quite the contrary. --Childhood's End (talk) 03:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
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Albanians in the Nordic countries
The Albanians in the Nordic countries (Shqiptarët në vendet nordike) refers to the Albanian migrants in Nordic countries such as Denmark, Faroe Islands, Finland, Norway and Sweden and their descendants.
The Albanians mostly trace their origins to Albania, Kosovo, North Macedonia and to a lesser extent to other Albanian-speaking territories in the Balkan Peninsula. Their exact number is difficult to determine as some ethnic Albanians hold other citizenship than Albanian or Kosovan.
Albania and Kosovo maintain close and friendly diplomatic and political ties with the Nordic countries. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden have been among the first countries to officially recognise the self-proclaimed Independence of Kosovo and its sovereignty.
Norway
Based on data of the Statistisk Sentralbyrå of 2018, there were approximately 18,500 Albanians (0.34% of the total population) geographically distributed in the territory of Norway composed of 15,642 (0.29% of the total population) Kosovan nationals and 2,111 people (0.04% of the total population) with Albanian nationality. The exact number of Albanians in the country could be higher which would as well include the Albanians from North Macedonia or other Albanian-speaking territories in the Balkan Peninsula but the data in Norway gives no indication of ethnic backgrounds. The historical conflicts in the Balkans, especially the Kosovo War, set in motion large population movements of ethnic Albanians to the country and elsewhere. Around 6,000 Albanians from Kosovo were evacuated to Norway from North Macedonia in 1999.
The electoral districts with the most significant concentration of Albanians are Akershus, Buskerud, Oslo, Østfold and Rogaland predominantly in southern Norway. The most lesser number are to be found in Finnmark, Sogn og Fjordane and Nordland. The city, county and metropolitan area of Oslo in southern Norway remain the prime destination of Albanian migrants in the country.
Denmark
The Albanians migrated to Denmark in two main groups - firstly through Yugoslavian labor migration, which spanned from the 1960s to 1970s, and later as a result of the Yugoslav wars. Many of said Yugoslavs came from Macedonia; an estimated 2,000 ethnic Albanians. In Greater Copenhagen, many Yugoslav immigrants are ethnic Albanians from Tetovo, Resen, and surrounding regions.
It is estimated that there are about 15,000 Albanian speakers from Albania, Kosovo, North Macedonia and Serbia in Denmark. Albanian has been continuously taught in Copenhagen and some other communities for some time.
The Albanian community in Denmark has long gone unnoticed. It gained publicity in recent years with the killing of an young Albanian boy. Kosovar Albanian migrants founded the Radio Television Voice of Kosovo in Denmark (RTVZiK).
The regions with the most significant concentration of Albanians in Denmark are Hovedstaden and Syddanmark mostly to the south and southeast of Denmark. The most lesser number are to be found in Nordjylland in the north of the country.
Finland
Albanians in Finland are active in cultural events and other similar meetings. The Albanian Association "Bashkimi" is a cultural association established in 1998, in Turku, a city in southern Finland where roughly 1,800 Albanians live. A recently-taken demographic report has revealed that ca. 20,000 Albanians emigrated to the country between 1990 and 2016.
Sweden
The exact number of ethnic Albanians in Sweden is not known.
The Diaspora Ministry of Kosovo has stated that "Sweden has the best conditions for the Albanian diaspora". Sweden is exemplary in promoting the teaching of Albanian in schools. One of the three state cultural centers of the Albanian diaspora is in Sweden, located in Halland.
Albanska Fotbolls Föreningen "Albanska FF", Rinia Idrottsförenig "Rinia IF" and "Prespa" are two Albanian football teams in Sweden.
Radio Dituria is an Albanian radiostation located in Borås. The radiostation focuses on Albanian culture and tradition.
Notable people
Selected people:
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Talk:Donald Cline
Untitled
when is his birthday
BLP violation?
It appears to me that the note attached to the May 26, 2022, revert is a BLP violation and should be stricken. Jerry Stockton (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I cant believe it
I hate him and I know everyone as well he had 90 siblings and the majority we have 3 or 8 but he has 90. 2603:8081:A002:FF9B:A45E:AD66:CA55:D815 (talk) 06:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Medical Ethics
Medical Ethics. I m surprised with the exclusive focus on violations of law when it appears violations of medical ethics were common in his practice. 2603:7081:333E:7361:70F5:2DDA:3DF3:5931 (talk) 02:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
Conviction
Before my edits the article claimed he was convicted of six counts of obstruction of justice. However, the referenced sources did not say that. I could find no source that authoritatively stated what he was convicted of, and the best I could find suggested that he was charged with two, not six, counts. If anyone can locate an authoritative source for his conviction, please reinsert the conviction with a reference and the correct number of counts, whatever it is. But be careful: some of the sources I found were clearly copying each others' mistakes. Elliotte Rusty Harold (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
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BRIEF-U.S. CPSC Says Bed Bath & Beyond Recalls Hudson Comforters By Ugg
January 18, 2018 / 6:36 PM / in 12 minutes BRIEF-U.S. CPSC Says Bed Bath & Beyond Recalls Hudson Comforters By Ugg Reuters Staff
Jan 18 (Reuters) - U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission:
* BED BATH & BEYOND RECALLS HUDSON COMFORTERS BY UGG DUE TO RISK OF MOLD EXPOSURE
* U.S. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION SAYS BED BATH & BEYOND RECALLS ABOUT 175,000 HUDSON COMFORTERS BY UGG IN U.S. DUE TO RISK OF MOLD EXPOSURE Source text for Eikon: Further company coverage:
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Agile Advocate: What's in Your Continuous Integration?
Agile Advocate: What's in Your Continuous Integration?
These core capabilities should be in your CI process.
I’ve had the unique opportunity over the last 30+ years to be involved in multiple large, enterprisewide, mission critical application development projects. I’ve also had the opportunity to develop and bring several products to market. In looking back at these projects, the common thread in the successful ones (yes, some were not successful) was the ability to respond quickly and effectively to the changing needs of the end user. Whether these were because of vague or misunderstood requirements, a changing technology landscape or competitive pressures, the ability to react quickly and change directions without regressing the end product was a critical factor in their success.
Getting these projects and organizations into an agile posture and reactive, adaptive position was not without its trials and tribulations. In every case, we had our share of setbacks and missteps along the way. And as more and more organizations embark on their journey to DevOps, each of them will undoubtedly encounter some of these same challenges.
I would like to share these past experiences and observations, both the success and particularly the failures with others so they can benefit and avoid these pitfalls and hopefully smooth out their road to a successful adoption of DevOps.
What’s in Your Continuous Integration?
So, what’s in your continuous integration, or CI, process? What does it do and what does it produce or provide as an end product? It’s interesting most projects don’t know what their CI process does, only that it “integrates” or “builds the product.” But you should really know more than that about a component so critical to your ability to deliver to your end users.
The CI process should be viewed as you would any other piece of software or application. You should develop and document clear functional requirements that dictate what it should do for the overall process as well as each phase of the process and exactly what it should produce.
I realize the requirements for CI will differ significantly from project to project. I’ve seen a range of CI processes —from very basic to everything plus the kitchen sink. What I’d like to understand though is, what are the basics requirements one would expect from a CI process? And more importantly, what should organizations expect as an end product from their CI process?
I’d like to propose a set of basic requirements or core capabilities that should be in your CI process. In doing so, I’m going to be looking at the CI process in terms of phases in the build life cycle. This life cycle proceeds from phase to phase with each contributing something to the end product and typically providing input into the next phase. The following is a list of those phases, along with a description and narrative I believe should serve as at least the starting point as requirements for your CI process.
Initialize and Validate: This phase provides for any initialization to occur for the build to complete successfully such as creating directories, setting variables and properties, etc. During this phase, formatting and style checks on the code according to project standards should be performed. Curiously, standardizing formatting seems to invoke some of the most heated debates and hotly contested discussions. I’m all for creativity and understand we all have our preferences when it comes to coding style. But for those who have to maintain the code long after the author is gone, I want it to be easily read and follow the code and be comfortable fixing and extending it. Establish projectwide formatting and style standards and stick with them.
Manage Resources: This phase is for any resources that need to be created, copied or processed in any way. This can include creation of test data, copying of files and directories, transformation of data and so on.
Compilation: Of course, we’re going to compile. While this seems too obvious to point out, make sure you’ve parameterized and standardized how the compilation will occur. For example, ensure the version of compiler and target platform are explicitly set and those values are used throughout the project. It really is important how your object or byte code is created. When the rubber hits the road, the bits and bytes need to line up.
Test: Here’s where we test our code at the unit and component level. And with some application frameworks, we’re able to go a bit further by testing how different “slices” of a system interact. The unit and component tests created by developers are run with each build. This includes the previous tests along with any new tests that cover any new or modified code. By running all the tests with each build and having them successfully complete, we are guarding or testing the modifications or additions to the code did not regress the functionality.
Packaging: The code is packaged along with any required resources into the required format — be a JAR, WAR, Bundle, etc. The end product is either the entire monolithic application or a component or part of the system or application to be deployed.
Integration Test: Strangely enough, despite its name, this phase is one of the most neglected and overlooked. This may be because it can be one of the most difficult and involved to implement. However, it’s where I believe you can achieve some of your highest return on investment. The integration phase is usually broken down into three separate steps.
The first is the pre-integration step, used to provision and set up the environment where the application will be deployed. When this phase is completed, the application should be deployed to the target platform, all resources provisioned and available and the application in a state where automated testing tools can exercise the functionality.
The second phase is the actual integration testing. Automated testing should drive the application from the user interface, application programming interfaces and any other access points that make sense for the application. This usually is the first opportunity where all the components and resources are brought together and must interact effectively.
This can pose a challenge, especially when considering the effort required to stand up some components such as large, distributed databases. But considering the value derived from the integration across the application, every effort should be made to create as effective and inclusive integration environment.
The third phase is used for cleanup. The application or servers should be shut down, all resources cleaned up and reclaimed and the environment reset as when the testing started.
Verify and Validate: This phase should gather code metrics using static code analysis tools — many of which are available as open source. These code metrics should be aggregated and uploaded into tools such the open source tool SonarQube, which provides management transparency on the overall health of the code. They also identify and track issues such as technical debt, code smells and test coverage via a drill-down graphical user interface. In addition, the code metrics should be gathered with each build or at least on a daily or nightly basis to support historical trends to determine if code quality is trending in a positive direction.
Deploy Artifacts: Not to be confused with a promotion of a release candidate to the next environment, this step will deploy the package or artifacts from the build into a remote artifact repository for use by other developers and build processes within the project and potentially across the organization. The artifact repository should allow for the versioning of each artifact so builds can have access to different versions of an artifact. For example, a build may want to use the most stable versions of most artifacts in the project but may want to use the very latest versions or snapshots of a particular artifact.
This isn’t an exhaustive list of what a CI process can do. But hopefully, this at least gets the conversation going concerning your project’s requirements for your continuous integration process. It’s one of the cornerstones of your delivery pipeline so it’s important you determine these requirements up front and understand not only what it does, but also what it produces for you. Don’t assume just because you’ve been told you have a CI process it does what you need to do. Be prepared to answer the question, “What’s in your CI?”
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Braid Hills
The Braid Hills form an area towards the south-western edge of Edinburgh, Scotland.
The hills themselves are largely open space. Housing in the area is mostly confined to detached villas, and some large terraced houses. The Braid Hills Hotel sits above Pentland Terrace and Comiston Road, overlooking the park across the road. The area is well known for its golf course and its views of the city, and is a popular destination for families taking children sledging in the winter. There is also a riding stables and school, eastwards towards Liberton, which arranges pony trekking.
Nearby areas are Morningside to the north, Comiston to the west, and Liberton to the east.
The core of the name is shared with the Braid Burn and the nearby Hermitage of Braid woodland park.
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Talk:Timeline of the Wing Commander universe
No timeline starting from Wing Commander III and beyond...?
As the title states... (<IP_ADDRESS> (talk) 01:42, 31 March 2012 (UTC))
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3D printing
What Do You Need to Know About 3D Printing Pen?
What exactly is a 3D pen? A three-dimensional pen is the most recent addition to the line of three-dimensional printing products. It is a pen but not primarily intended for writing a text on paper, but it’s designed and built mainly for printing objects in 3D
If you are finding that a little vague and confusing, don’t worry; 3D pens are still a fairly new technology, and not everyone is familiar with it yet. Consider a standard glue gun that works with colored glue sticks and comes with a smaller tip to make it easier to use.
Rather than using the colored plastic oozing out from the nozzle of the pen to glue objects together, you can use it to draw figures or objects.
Who Would Think About Inventing a 3D Pen?
3D penIn the beginning, we only had 3D printers. During those days, 3D pens were unavailable and unheard of. 3D printer machines were also massive and the vast majority of them were expensive, too.
Evidently, only a small number of select groups of people, like hobbyists and artists, can manage to acquire and own such a groundbreaking machine. It requires a huge amount of computer expertise to figure out how to design objects in computer work.
During those days, what was lacking was a lightweight, compact, and self-contained pen that designers, artists, or engineers could use that would allow them to create 3-dimensional figures.
Enter Daniel Cowen, Maxwell Bogue, and Peter Dilworth, a phenomenal triumvirate who produced the very first three-dimensional pen after having a bad experience with a 3D printing machine.
They called their invention the “3Doodler”. This product offering they came up with is no less than a 3D glue gun. They held a public launch for this offering in 2013, and after which, as they say, the rest is history. From then on, 3D pens naturally became a must-have item for both seasoned and budding artists alike.
What are 3D Pens and How Do They Work?
The working principle behind a 3D printing pen is very straightforward. Plastic is thawed by the right amount of heat. Then, they are forced into a heating compartment where the melting process will take place. Basically, it is pretty much the same as how a simple glue gun works.
The temperature of the filament is never in a fixed state, varying usually and this would be highly dependent upon the materials used to manufacture it. The extruder nozzle will be forced through the molten filament.
3D printing
The pen user, which is referred to here as a “doodler” pushes the pen around to make various shapes and figures. Once outside the pen, the melted plastic will be cooling down and taking form in no time, preserving the extruded filament’s newly assumed form.
The pen user (also known as a doodler) pushes the pen to make way for making shapes and figures. Once outside the pen, the melted plastic will cool and solidify in no time. This helps a lot in preserving the form of the extruded filament.
When extruded, 3D printing pen plastics need to melt and solidify easily. Unfortunately, only a limited number of plastics meet these requirements. Glass filled polyamide, PLA (polylactic acid), nylon (nylon), ABS (acrylonitrile butadiene styrene), PVA (polyvinyl alcohol), and PC (polycarbonate) are some types of plastic material that readily fall into this classification. PLA and ABS plastics are most commonly used.
How 3D Printing Australia is Improving the Manufacturing Industry?
3D printing processHere is a bit of good news for us all, 3D printing Australia‘s market share is increasing fast over the years. The mere fact that there is now a greater volume of production industries that are joining the bandwagon, and taking on the shift to acquire 3D printing units of their own substantiate all this.
While traditional manufacturing methods, also known as subtractive manufacturing systems have been rendered less impactful as far as improving business interest is concerned, there are still a handful of businesses out there that are having second thoughts on giving up their old manufacturing processes or production ways.
3-dimensional printing, otherwise known as the additive manufacturing technique, can empower consumers. Assuming that consumers can 3D print their most required consumer goods with their 3D printer machine at home, this signifies that manufacturing organizations will be facing serious drawbacks.
In a different light, it has paved the way for the opening of brand new opportunities for factory maintenance, production, and R&D — because acquiring machine spares has never been a breeze.
3D printing is a groundbreaking technology that comes with a mixed impression. What people notice most about is that the pros outweigh the cons. Hence, it is on its way towards becoming the most preferred production method to use.
Additive Manufacturing
The irrefutable buzzword in the four corners of the manufacturing world nowadays is additive manufacturing. Nowadays, various industries employ the use of the subtractive process. With this system of production, the raw material used is getting wasted by reusing it multiple times, over and over. What do we mean by this?
If you will pay a visit to a car manufacturing company, you will see they are cutting metal sheets for shaping into many different parts. If there are any leftover metals or scraps, they will be melted back down for forming into metal plates again.
Melting down scrap leftover metal is necessary for repurposing. They will be utilized in the production of other vital parts and components that will be used anywhere throughout the vehicle manufacturing process.
As for 3D printing Australia, we will describe it as a precise process of manufacturing. Whatever design for a material you have in mind, it will be printed in 3-dimensions using your raw materials (filaments).
No cutting of anything will take place here, hence eliminating the creation of leftover materials or scrap metals. For this reason, we can say that 3D printing manufacturing is not to be qualified as a subtractive type of production.
We should look at it, instead, as a qualified additive process. 3-dimensional printing minimizes its generation of waste materials and alongside that, it also takes away from the equation the use of a lot of equipment. As for the processing time, the 3D printing method uses only a fraction of the time that the traditional method requires.
Redefining Calculation Cost
When you employ the use of 3D printing Australian technology into your production environment, it is certain to create a significant impact on your anticipated material and production costing.
Now, with respect to its intended purpose, the current price for 3D printing machines can be estimated to run between $5,000 to $500,000. But in terms of a massive manufacturing setup, you can have confidence that the ROI (return of investment) would make up for the cost.
An industry that migrated to the use of 3D printing will significantly hit the breakeven point a lot quicker as opposed to the integration of other process technologies.
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pseudohemophilia
Etymology
From, reflecting New Latin :.
Noun
* 1) Any of several disorders of blood clotting time, seeming clinically similar to the hemophilias, but pathophysiologically different therefrom, without the same clotting factor derangements as found therein; at least some of these disorders are types of, and nowadays would be called and diagnosed thus.
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User:Powerpuffgirl21
Hey! This is Sanjeevani Thakur. I am a MSc Economics student from Symbiosis School of Economics. /Sandbox
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Do bots use VPNs?
There are many advantages to using a VPN, such as increased security and privacy. With the rise of online threats, more people are turning to VPNs to protect their online activity from malicious actors. But do bots use VPNs?
The short answer is yes, bots can use VPNs. In fact, many botnets are designed to operate through VPNs in order to avoid detection and mitigation efforts. By encrypting their traffic and routing it through a remote server, bots can make it much harder for security researchers to track them down.
Of course, not all botnets rely on VPNs. Some botnets communicate directly with their master controller without going through any third-party servers. However, these types of botnets are generally less sophisticated and easier to take down.
So why do bots use VPNs? The main reason is to avoid detection and blockage by security systems. By hiding their traffic behind an encrypted tunnel, bots can blend in with legitimate traffic and avoid being flagged as suspicious activity.
Operating a botnet is illegal in most jurisdictions, so the operators go to great lengths to hide their tracks. Using a VPN is just one of the many techniques they use to stay under the radar.
When it comes to encryption, there are multiple different types that can be used. However, VPN providers typically use one of two different types: IPsec or OpenVPN.
IPsec, which stands for Internet Protocol Security, is a protocol that uses both Authentication Header (AH) and Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP). AH secures data by authenticating the sender and verifying that the message has not been altered in transit. ESP provides confidentiality, integrity, and authentication for data traffic.
OpenVPN is another type of encryption that uses SSL/TLS protocols. This method is considered more secure than IPsec because it uses AES-256 bit ciphers with 2048-bit key certificates for authentication. It also employs Perfect Forward Secrecy, which means that each session key is unique and cannot be derived from previous keys.
Worth knowing
Although there are many benefits to using a VPN while at school, some schools block these services. This is usually because the school wants to maintain control over the network and prevent students from accessing certain websites or applications. While a VPN can be used to bypass these restrictions, it is important to note that doing so may violate the terms of service for your VPN provider. Additionally, using a VPN at school may also violate the terms of service for the school’s network. As such, it is always best to consult with your school’s IT department before using a VPN on their network.
Worth knowing
The short answer is yes, VPNs can protect your computer from a number of threats. By encrypting your traffic and re-routing it through a secure server, VPNs make it much more difficult for anyone to intercept or track your data. This can be especially useful when you’re using public Wi-Fi, which is often unsecured and easy for hackers to exploit.
In addition to protecting your data, VPNs can also help to improve your privacy online. By masking your IP address and making it appear as though you’re accessing the internet from a different location, VPNs can make it much harder for third parties to track your online activity. This is particularly useful if you’re concerned about government surveillance or spying by corporate entities.
Of course, no security measure is perfect, and VPNs are not immune to attack. However, they provide a valuable layer of protection that can significantly reduce the risk of having your data intercepted or tracked. If you’re looking for ways to improve your security and protect your privacy online, using a VPN is definitely worth considering.
Worth knowing
A VPN can be an effective tool to prevent hacking, by disguising your IP address and encrypting the information you send across the internet. This makes it much harder for someone to track you, or intercept and read your data.
Thank your for reading!
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Page:The Coming Race, etc - 1888.djvu/186
172 influences at thy birth marred all thy gifts and virtues with counter- acting infirmity and error."
Muza,—more perhaps than any subject in Granada,—did justice to the real character of the king; but even he was unable to penetrate all its complicated and latent mysteries. Boabdil El Chico was no ordinary man: his affections were warm and generous, his nature calm and gentle; and, though early, power, and the painful experience of a mutinous people and ungrateful court, had imparted to. that nature an irascibility of temper, and a quickness of suspicion, foreign to its earlier soil, he was easily led back to generosity and justice; and, if warm in resentment, was magnanimous in forgiveness. Deeply accomplished in all the learning of his race and time, he was—in books,at least—a philosopher; and, indeed, his attachment to the abstruser studies was one of the main causes which unfitted him for his present station. But it was the circumstances attendant on his birth and childhood that had perverted his keen and graceful intellect to morbid indulgence in mystic reveries, and all the doubt, fear, and irresolution of a man who pushes metaphysics into the supernatural world. Dark prophecies accumulated omens over his head; men united in considering him born to disastrous destinies. Whenever he had sought to wrestle against hostile circumstances, some seemingly accidental cause, sudden and unforeseen, had blasted the labours of his most vigorous energy,—the fruit of his most deliberate wisdom. Thus, by degrees, a gloomy and despairing cloud settled over his mind; but, secretly sceptical of the Mahometan creed, and too proud and sanguine to resign himself wholly and passively to the doctrine of inevitable predestination, he sought to contend against the machinations of hostile demons and boding stars, not by human but spiritual agencies. Collecting around him the seers and magicians of orient-fanaticism, he lived in the visions of another world; and, flattered by the promises of impostors or dreamers, and deceived by his own subtle and brooding tendencies of mind, it was amongst spells and cabala that he thought to draw forth the mighty secret which was to free him from the meshes of the preternatural enemies of his fortune, and leave him the freedom of other men to wrestle, with equal chances, against peril and adversities. It was thus, that Almamen had won the mastery over his mind; and, though upon matters of common and earthly import, or solid learning, Boabdil could contend with sages, upon those of superstition he could be fooled by a child. He was, in this, a kind of Hamlet: formed, under prosperous and serene fortunes, to render blessings and reap renown; but over whom the chilling shadow of another world had fallen—whose soul curdled back into itself—
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Yes Diet And Exercise Can Preventing Heart Disease
Preventing heart disease with diet and exercise means more than dragging out your old running shoes and changing from ice cream to vegetables. Too many times life catches up with us. You may have been a runner or volleyball player before you were married and had kids but now, with the added stress of work and family life, exercise has been moved to a back burner.
Something may have triggered your desire to exercise and prevent heart disease – it could have been an article, a friend who had a heart attack or a recent diagnosis of a chronic disease. What ever the reason there are steps to take before you begin.
Your first step should be a medical examination with your doctor. Only your doctor can determine if you already have a degree of heart disease or coronary artery blockage that will kill you within weeks of beginning a vigorous exercise program. Depending upon your history, your health issues and your family history he will do specific tests to look for a coronary artery blockage. This preventative screening may just save your life.
Cardiovascular disease will kill 950,000 Americans every year but as many as 2/3 are preventable. Preventing heart disease with diet and exercise is your next step to a healthier you. A heart healthy lifestyle consists of 8-10 servings of fruits and vegetables each day, plenty of water, limited caffeine and alcohol and at least 30 minutes of moderate to vigorous amounts of exercise each day.
Dietary changes are your first step. There are several easy and quick changes that can make a big difference in the long run. First, change to grapeseed and olive oil. You can use light extra virgin olive oil when you don’t want the heavy flavor of olive oil or a heavier version when you are looking for the extra flavor (like in whole wheat pasta). Olive oil is cold pressed and not heat-treated which makes a difference in the way your body processes the oil. Grapeseed oil is stable at higher temperatures and can be used for frying or baking, while olive oil is wonderful for dipping and sauces.
Next using the broiler or baking for your foods instead of sautéing or frying. Frying and sautéing adds extra fats and oils to the foods that you don’t need and only clog your arteries. If you like cheese make it hard cheese, like parmesan or Romano. The harder the cheese the less fat is in it. Velveeta and softer cheese are higher in fat and processing, which adds to your risk of heart disease.
What is important with your dietary and exercise changes are that they should be consistent. Eating foods rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains and low fat dairy products will help to protect your heart. Including fish, legumes and other low fat types of proteins will also help to reduce your risk.
After including certain foods you must also limit others such as saturated, polyunsaturated, monounsaturated and trans fats. All of these fats will increase your risk of heart disease and raise your blood cholesterol. Major sources of these fats are beef, butter, cheeses, milk, coconut and palm oils as well as deep fat fried foods, baked products and packaged snack foods.
Preventing heart disease with diet and exercise also means getting 30 minutes of moderate to vigorous exercise 5 days each week. You aren’t training for the local triathlon or the Olympics – you are getting your heart rate elevated and your breathing deeper for 30 minutes each day. You can use a trampoline in the house, an exercise ball, walking, jogging, jump rope or sports such as basketball, soccer, tennis or racquet ball. You don’t have to do the same thing each day. Vary your activities and keep them interesting.
Again, the intent isn’t to exercise for one week and then stop but to make life changes that will improve your chances of living a long and healthy life. This is true for dietary changes as well. Preventing heart disease with diet and exercise is a commitment to long-term changes that will decrease your risk of heart disease, stroke and heart attack.
How To Stay Healthy
More Healthy Living Tips
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Healthy Eating Facts - Why It is SO Importtant
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Exploring contexts of occurrence of particular words in large datasets
Hi everybody, how are you?. I am currently working on a project where we would like to explore and be able to obtain the contexts of occurrence of particular words or n-grams in large datasets used to train language models, such as GitHub - josecannete/spanish-corpora: Unannotated Spanish 3 Billion Words Corpora.
As you can imagine, the problem is that when dealing with such large datasets, conventional strategies like using libraries like pandas and the like require a lot of RAM and computing power, so here are my questions:
• Does the platform have any tools already available to carry out different types of searches on large datasets, which facilitates this task?
• Is there some kind of server/service within the platform with enough RAM and computing power that we can access to load the full datasets and use an API to interact from our Space?
Thank you very much! Hernán
@nanom I’ll try and take a shot at providing some assistance. I am still a beginner at the huggingface suite but I’ve been using various aspects of it recently.
Does the platform have any tools already available to carry out different types of searches on large datasets, which facilitates this task?
Perhaps one thing to consider is the datasets library (here). From what I gather, it utilizes Apache Arrow under the hood to efficiently build a memory map of the data for efficient loading and processing. Within datasets there is a map() function that I have used extensively with great success. If your dataset is some what customized, it might be worthwhile to build a loading script for the datasets object and then run map() over the data to perform your searches/calculations. I have done both of these recently and am happy to help and share my experience if you think it will benefit you.
Is there some kind of server/service within the platform with enough RAM and computing power that we can access to load the full datasets and use an API to interact from our Space?
This one I’m not super certain of. If I read your question correctly, you’re asking about the possibly to load some data, model, and training routine onto a set of compute hardware on hugginface’s end that has a lot of RAM (and possibly GPUs) available to run the training pipeline. If this is the case, then perhaps the hardware solution and/or the HF services might be of interest.
1 Like
Thank you very much for your response! @nanom managed to implement an inverted index to address the first problem but we are still struggling with hardware limitations. Do you know who we should contact to ask some questions about which is the best pricing option for a particular project regarding hardware? HF services
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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munuccild
Etymology
Composed of.
Noun
* 1) child training to be a monk
Declension
Also often appears as an a-stem:
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WIKI
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Mauno Kuusisto
Mauno Arnold Kuusisto (3 November 1917, Tampere — 29 August 2010, Tampere) was a popular Finnish vocalist and opera singer (tenor), as well as an actor.
Early life
Mauno Arnold Kuusisto was born on 3 November 1917 in Tampere, Finland. Kuusisto was orphaned when he was just a few weeks old and was subsequently taken in by his grandparents who also lived in Tampere. He resided in a Finlayson workers' house during the remainder of his life as a child and then by the time he was a teenager he began to work for the company.
Kuusisto completed his schooling at the Pyynikin old vocational school. However, he was offered a place as a model carpenter at Finlayson which he accepted and began to work before the Winter War. He worked for Finlayson until the year of 1957.
Career
Mauno Kuusisto initially participated in Finlayson's musical activities. Since then, Kuusisto began to study singing and visited choirs and quartets in Tampere. He had his first concert in 1952 in Tampere. In the Tampere Opera he sang a total of twenty-one operas and operetta roles. Tampere orchestra leader Eero Kosonen gladly paid him for these roles. Kusisto also visited the Finnish National Opera in Helsinki, Finland, twice. Kuusisto appeared as part of the cast in these operas mostly between 1952–1968.
Kuusisto became a familiar radio personality in the 1950s. In 1930 Rudolfo Falvon composed the song "Kertokaa se hänelle" ("Tell it to him") which Kuusisto sang in 1959. As a result, Kuusisto rose to popularity among audiences and "Tell it to him" reached gold record sales in Finland. With 47,000 initial sales, "Tell it to him" is Finland's best-selling domestic single.
Albums
* Kertokaa se hänelle (1965, Discophon)
* Hengellisiä lauluja (1967, Discophon)
* Mauno Kuusisto laulaa (1967, Finnlevy)
* Lauluja Sinulle (1969, Discophon)
* Elämäni on lauluni (1971, Discophon)
* Sunnuntai (1978, Discophon)
* Tulin onneni yrttitarhaan (1980, Discophon)
* Sua kohti Herrani (1980, Discophon)
* Joulumuisto (1980, Discophon)
Collections
* Kauneimmat lauluni (1979, Discophon)
* Unohtumattomat (1992, Finnlevy)
* Joulun tähtihetkiä (1992, Finlandia Records)
* 20 suosikkia – Lokki (Fazer Records, 1995)
* 20 suosikkia – On jossakin (Warner Music Finland, 1999)
* 20 suosikkia − Oi muistatko vielä sen virren (Warner Music Finland, [2002)
Filmography
* Kertokaa se hänelle... (1961) (dir. Åke Lindman)
* Kun tuomi kukkii (1962) (dir. Åke Lindman)
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WIKI
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Reynolds Channel pipeline completed | Newsday
Get breaking news alerts from Newsday Turn on notifications? Desktop notifications are on You might be using private browsing or have notifications blocked. Please enable notifications or using normal browsing mode. Long Island American Water pipes in Lynbrook, where there was a brown-water incident in 2010. The company flushed the pipes, and use restrictions were lifted. Photo Credit: Danielle Finkelstein, 2010 Long Island American Water has completed a $1.5 million pipeline replacement project under Reynolds Channel to help improve water service reliability for customers in the villages of Atlantic Beach, Lawrence and Cedarhurst and the hamlet of Inwood, water company officials said. The replacement of the water main that crosses under the channel is part of the water company's $14.2 million budget to ensure reliability for residential water demand and fire protection, president William Varley said in his announcement Tuesday. American Water is the largest water supplier in Nassau County, providing water services to about 220,000 people. Underwater crossings are technically and logistically challenging projects, said American Water's engineering manager Ben Claase. This was the largest directional drill project conducted in Nassau County and one of the largest for Long Island. The project took nearly a year to finish and involved installing a new 1,400-foot, 20-inch diameter, high-density polyethylene pipe 25 feet below the channel's bottom as required by the state Department of Environmental Conservation and U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The company used horizontal directional drilling technology between Acapulco Street in Atlantic Beach, and Beach 2nd Street in Lawrence, adjacent to the Atlantic Beach Bridge crossing, officials said. Bancker Construction Corp. and Environmental Crossings Inc. drilled and installed the new main, which was then pressure-tested, disinfected and connected with the existing distribution system on both shores, officials said. Photo: Long Island American Water pipes in Lynbrook We're revamping our Comments section. Learn more and share your input. Try our new Search Privacy Policy | Terms of service |Subscription terms |Your ad choices |RSS |About Us |Contact Newsday |Reprints & permissions |Advertise with Newsday |Sitemap |Help Copyright var currentYear = new Date().getFullYear();document.write(currentYear); Newsday. All rights reserved.
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NEWS-MULTISOURCE
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How Pixels Are Converted to Bytes
By Stephen Lilley
File Information
When a person talks about converting "pixels" to "bytes," he is not talking about a literal conversion. What he is referring to is a mathematical calculation that determines how large an image file will be based on its resolution. It sounds complicated, but in reality it is no more involved than plugging a few easily obtainable numbers into a mathematical equation.One of the two pieces of information that are required for the calculation are the width and height of an image. This is called the resolution. The unit of measurement will be in "pixels", which is another term for "picture elements."The second piece of information needed is the number of colors per pixel in the image. This is called the image "depth."
General Data
As a rule, there are 16 bits of file size per pixel. This means that there are 8 bits per byte of file size, as 2 bits equals 1 byte. In keeping with things that are equal, this then means that there are 2 bytes of file information per pixel contained in the image.It is easy to calculate the amount of pixels contained within an image. You can look this up in the image information of the particular file you're working with, or you can do the calculation yourself. For example, if your display has a resolution of 800x600, then 800 multiplied by 600 is 480,000 pixels.
Calculations
You can now do the calculation and discover how many bytes are in your image. The number of bytes is equal to the number of pixels multiplied by the number of bytes per pixel. As we've already found how many pixels are in the image (480,000), and that there are 2 bytes of information in a pixel, the equation then becomes:480,000 pixels multiplied by 2 bytes per pixel.This gives us a final answer of 960,000 bytes. Remember that this equation can be performed for a file of any size, no matter the amount of pixels contained within. Just substitute the appropriate numbers and calculate away.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Page:Historic highways of America (Volume 9).djvu/185
Rh couraged. We were passing the lone shanty-boat of a river tradesman, tied up on shore, waiting for the wind 'to lay.' Chris hailed him and asked leave to boil coffee on his stove. I expected a rebuff, but the trader cordially invited us to 'walk in, gentlemen; you seem ruther fagged. Set down, set down. I seen you uns a passin' us above t'other day, but this old tortus runs night and day and gits ahead of the rabbit sometimes while you're taking a nap.' And so the loquacious old chap ran on. Glad of a rest, we stayed and drifted with him some ten or twelve miles that night, bunking on a pile of bags in a corner. To be sure the wily old fox turned our visit to his profit. He proved to us plainly, by river logic, what our experience had already shown—that we had certain cumbrous baggage that ought to be disposed of, and he bought it of us for a song, 'jest to accommodate you uns, you know; I'm allers a-buyin' a lot o' no-account truck, jest to help folks out.' Very likely! But the information he gave proved so valuable, his bacon tasted so good, that night spent with him drifting and resting was so
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WIKI
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`<[T]>::as_uninit_mut`
Some decoders may accept an uninitialized out buffer.
fn decode<'s, 'd>(
src: &'s [u8],
dst: &'d mut [MaybeUninit<u8>]
) -> Result<&'d mut [u8], Error>;
If we add this method:
impl<T> [T] {
pub fn as_uninit_mut(&mut self) -> &mut [MaybeUninit<T>] {
let (ptr, len) = (self.as_mut_ptr(), self.len());
unsafe { core::slice::from_raw_parts_mut(ptr.cast(), len) }
}
}
Then we can easily pass an initialized buffer to the decoder.
let mut buf = vec![0; len];
let result = decode(src, buf.as_uninit_mut());
I like this idea - I had the same one for ndarray, it would be convenient.
I ended up not implementing it because it has a hole that makes it unsafe unfortunately:
let mut data = [0; 4];
data.as_uninit_mut()[0] = MaybeUninit::uninit();
// when we reach this point `data[0]` is uninitialized in safe code
7 Likes
Oh that's right. &mut T is invariant over T. I should read the Rustonomicon once again.
It's unfortunate, we need another abstraction - not MaybeUninit - that's compatible with write-valid-only, not sure how to do that :slight_smile: i.e a type that represents an uninitialized hole but the only valid operation is to fill the hole.
I'm not sure if this would handle what you're trying to do, but you might be interested in https://rust-lang.github.io/rfcs/2930-read-buf.html#reference-level-explanation.
3 Likes
I can't speak to vec specifically, but for simple array use cases and especially when inlining is working, examining the godbolt output for this sort of pattern shows no difference between using an initialized array e.g. [0u8; 4] or unsafe { mem::zeroed() }:
If the output bytes are overwritten, LLVM appears to optimize away initially filling the buffer with zeroes.
I mention this mostly because I see people unnecessarily reach for unsafe here for assumed performance benefits when the generated code is identical to using safe code.
If you have some wacky FFI use case, obviously all bets are off.
4 Likes
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Lawrence John Cannon
Lawrence John Cannon (November 18, 1852 – January 30, 1921) was a Canadian lawyer and judge.
Born in Quebec City, Canada East, the son of Lawrence Ambrose Cannon and Mary Jane Cary, his godfather was Augustin-Norbert Morin. Cannon studied at the Séminaire de Québec and the Séminaire de Nicolet before receiving a law degree from the Université Laval. He was called to the Quebec Bar in 1874 and practiced law in Arthabaskaville (Victoriaville) in partnership with Édouard-Louis Pacaud. In 1882, he ran unsuccessfully as the Liberal candidate for the House of Commons of Canada in the riding of Drummond—Arthabaska losing to Désiré Olivier Bourbeau. In 1891, he was appointed deputy attorney general and law clerk for the province of Quebec. He was appointed a judge of the Superior Court for the district of Trois-Rivières in 1905 and served as a judge until his death in 1921.
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WIKI
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Page:EB1911 - Volume 28.djvu/855
Such was Wordsworth's theory of poetic diction. Nothing could be more grossly mistaken than the notion that the greater part of Wordsworth's poetry was composed in defiance of his own theory, and that he succeeded best when he set his own theory most at defiance. The misconception is traceable to the authority of Coleridge. His just, sympathetic and penetrating criticism on Wordsworth's work as a poet did immense service in securing for him a wider recognition; but his proved friendship and brilliant style have done sad injustice to the poet as a theorist. It was natural to assume that Coleridge, if anybody, must have known what his friend's theory was; and it was natural also that readers under the charm of his lucid and melodious prose should gladly grant themselves a dispensation from the trouble of verifying his facts in the harsh and cumbrous exposition of the theorist himself.
The question of diction made most noise, but it was far from being the most important point of poetic doctrine set forth in the Preface. If in this he merely enunciated a truism, generally admitted in words but too generally ignored in practice, there was real novelty in his plea for humble subjects, and in his theory of poetic composition. Wordsworth's remarks on poetry in general, on the supreme function of the imagination in dignifying humble and commonplace incidents, and on the need of active exercise of imagination in the reader as well as in the poet, are immeasurably more important than his theory of poetic diction. Such sayings as that poetry “takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquillity,” or that it is the business of a poet to trace “how men associate ideas in a state of excitement,” are significant of Wordsworth's endeavour to lay the foundations of his art in an independent study of the feelings and faculties of men in real life, unbiased as far as possible by poetic custom and convention. This does not mean that the new poet was to turn his back on his predecessors and never look behind him to what they had done. Wordsworth was guilty of no such extravagance. He was from boyhood upwards a diligent student of poetry, and was not insensible to his obligations to the past. His purpose was only to use real life as a touchstone of poetic substance. The poet, in Wordsworth's conception, is distinctively a man in whom the beneficent energy of imagination, operative as a blind instinct more or less in all men, is stronger than in others, and is voluntarily and rationally exercised for the benefit of all in its proper work of increase and consolation. Not every image that the excited mind conjures up in real life is necessarily poetical. It is the business of the poet to select and modify for his special purpose of producing immediate pleasure.
There were several respects in which the formal recognition of such elementary principles of poetic evolution powerfully affected Wordsworth's practice. One of these may be indicated by saying that he endeavoured always to work out an emotional motive from within. Instead of choosing a striking theme and working at it like a decorative painter, embellishing, enriching, dressing to advantage, standing back from it and studying effects, his plan was to take incidents that had set his own imagination spontaneously to work, and to study and reproduce with artistic judgment the modification of the initial feeling, the emotional motive, within himself. To this method he owed much of his strength and also much of his unpopularity. By keeping his eye on the object, as spontaneously modified by his own imaginative energy, he was able to give full and undistracted scope to all his powers in poetic coinage of the wealth that his imagination brought. On the other hand, readers
whose nature or education was different from his own, were repelled or left cold and indifferent, or obliged to make the sympathetic effort to see with his eyes, which he refused to make in order that he might see with theirs.
He is retired as noontide dew Or fountain in a noon-day grove, And you must love him ere to you He will seem worthy of your love.”
From this habit of taking the processes of his own mind as the standard of the way in which “men associate ideas in a state of excitement,” and language familiar to himself as the standard of the language of “real men,” arises a superficial anomaly in Wordsworth's poetry, an apparent contradiction between his practice and his theory. His own imagination, judged by ordinary standards, was easily excited by emotional motives that have little force with ordinary men. Most of his poems start from humbler, slighter, less generally striking themes than those of any other poet of high rank. But his poetry is not correspondingly simple. On the contrary, much of it, much of the best of it—for example, the Ode to Duty, and that on the Intimations of Immortality—is intricate, elaborate and abstruse. The emotional motive is simple; the passion has almost always a simple origin, and often is of no great intensity; but the imaginative structure is generally elaborate, and, when the poet is at his best, supremely splendid and gorgeous. No poet has built such magnificent palaces of rare material for the ordinary everyday homely human affections. It is because he has invested our ordinary everyday principles of conduct, which are so apt to become threadbare, with such imperishable robes of finest texture and richest design that Wordsworth holds so high a place among the great moralists in verse.
His practice was influenced also, and not always for good, by his theory that poetry "takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquillity.” This was a somewhat doubtful corollary from his general theory of poetic evolution. A poem is complete in itself; there must be no sting in it to disturb the reader's content with the whole; through whatever agitations it progresses, to whatever elevations it soars, to this end it must come, otherwise it is imperfect as a poem. Now the imagination in ordinary men, though the process is not expressed in verse, and the poet's special art has thus no share in producing the effect, reaches the poetic end when it has so transfigured a disturbing experience, whether of joy or grief, that this rests tranquilly in the memory, can be recalled without disquietude, and dwelt upon with some mode and degree of pleasure, more or less keen, more or less pure or mixed with pain. True to his idea of imitating real life, Wordsworth made it a rule for himself not to write on any theme till his imagination had operated upon it for some time involuntarily; it was not in his view ripe for poetic treatment till this transforming agency had subdued the original emotion to a state of tranquillity. Out of this tranquillity arises the favourable moment for poetic composition, some day when, as he contemplates the subject, the tranquillity disappears, an emotion kindred to the original emotion is reinstated, and the poet retraces and supplements with all his art the previous involuntary and perhaps unconscious imaginative chemistry.
When we study the moments that Wordsworth found favourable for successful composition, a very curious law reveals itself, somewhat at variance with the common conception of him as a poet who derived all his strength from solitary communion with nature. We find that the recluse's best poems were written under the excitement of some break in the monotony of his quiet life—change of scene, change of companionship, change of occupation. The law holds from the beginning to the end of his poetic career. An immense stimulus was given to his powers by his first contact with Coleridge after two years of solitary and abortive effort. Above Tintern Abbey was composed
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WIKI
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Monitoring and Metrics
A look at all the stats/metrics generated by backend and how to monitor the application using them.
The backend uses statsd client to log stats. These stats can be collected by any statsd server like Graphite, CloudWatch, etc. For example, CloudWatch Agent can be used to collect stats to Amazon CloudWatch.
Note that the collection of stats can be disabled using enableStats in config.toml.
Every metric has a dimension called instanceName which can be used to filter metrics. This can be helpful in case of multi-node deployments.
Available metrics
Recovery Mode
The backend usually runs in normal mode. If backend crashes and restarts multiple times in a short span, it is started in either degraded or maintenance mode. In degraded mode, events are collected and stored by backend's gateway, but are not sent to destinations. In maintenance mode, existing database is set aside for further inspection and a new database is used. So, it is important that recovery mode is monitored and appropriate action taken when backend enters either degraded or maintenance mode.
This is the most important metric to monitor as it directly indicates the health of the application.
Name
Type
Description
recovery.mode_normal
Gauge
has a value of :
1 when running in normal mode
0 when running in degraded or maintenance mode
Gateway
Name
Type
Description
Dimensions
gateway.response_time
Timer
Response time of each request
-
gateway.batch_size
Counter
Requests are grouped together internally for processing. It captures the size of such batch
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gateway.batch_time
Timer
Time taken to process each batch of requests
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gateway.write_key_requests
Counter
Number of requests received with each write key
writekey
gateway.write_key_successful_requests
Counter
Number of successful requests with each write key
writekey
gateway.write_key_failed_requests
Counter
Number of failed requests with each write key. *
writekey
* Requests fail in cases like large request size, invalid write key, bad format of events, etc.
Processor
Name
Type
Description
processor.active_users
Gauge
Number of active users. Based on the most recent events received. Useful for monitoring real time traffic.
processor.gateway_db_read
Counter
Number of events read from database for processing
processor.gateway_db_write
Counter
Number of events whose status is updated in gateway database after processing
processor.router_db_write
Counter
Number of events written to router db
processor.batch_router_db_write
Counter
Number of events written to batch router db. Note that batch router db is used for handling batch dumping destinations like S3, MinIO, etc.
processor.transformer_sent
Counter
Number of events sent to transformer
processor.transformer_received
Counter
Number of events received from transformer. Note that this may not always be the same as transformer_sent even if there are no failures,
processor.transformer_failed
Counter
Number of events from transformer with error responses.
Router
Name
Type
Description
router.[destination_code]_delivery_time*
Timer
Time taken to send each event to a specific destination
router.[destination_code]_batch_time*
Timer
Time taken by routing worker for each iteration. Multiple events are sent in each iteration. Equivalent to the interval with which a worker picks new batch of events to send.**
router.[destination_code]_failed_attempts*
Counter
Number of retries made for a specification destination
router.events_delivered
Counter
Total number of events delivered to all destinations.
* These metrics are each destination type like GA, AMP, etc. So all the different Google Analytics destinations are grouped under a single metric (e.g: router.GA_worker_network). Useful for monitoring if there are failures or delays in delivering to a particular destination.
** Number of events picked in each iteration can be configured using noOfJobsPerChannel from config.toml.
BatchRouter
Destinations where raw events are dumped like S3, MinIO are handled by Batch Router
Name
Type
Description
Dimension
batch_router.dest_successful_events
Counter
Number of successful events sent to a specific destination
destID
batch_router.dest_failed_attempts
Counter
Number of failed attempts per specific destination. Increased number of this metric means we are unable to reach that specific destination (usually due to invalid authorisation or endpoint).
destID
batch_router.[destination_code]_dest_upload_time
Timer
Time taken to upload events to a specific destination (S3, MinIO, etc.)
-
batch_router.errors
Counter
Total number of errors when sending events to destinations
-
JobsDB
These are backend's implementation specific metrics that can be used to analyse the performance based on traffic. JobsDB maintains active events and their statuses. For optimising DB operations, we periodically add new tables in the db and migrate rows from older tables.
Name
Type
Description
jobsdb.gw_tables_count
Gauge
Number of gateway tables in JobsDB
jobsdb.rt_tables_count
Gauge
Number of router tables in JobsDB
jobsdb.brt_tables_count
Gauge
Number of batch router tables in JobsDB
Ideally, the above tables count should not be ever growing. Ever growing tables indicate either events not getting processed and delivered in time, or that the load exceeded what current setup can handle and it is time to scale.
JobsDB - Table Dump specific
All the events from gateway tables are periodically dumped to S3/MinIO as a backup and also to facilitate event replay. These stats monitor delays or errors in dumping.
Name
Type
Description
jobsdb.table_file_dump_time
Timer
Time taken to dump gateway tables to a json file
jobsdb.file_upload_time
Timer
Time taken to compress and upload the generated json files.
jobsdb.total_table_dump_time
Timer
Total time taken for the whole process of dumping tables to S3.
Config Backend Polling
Configuration about the sources and their corresponding destinations is polled from config backend. Any errors in fetching this config can be monitored using config_backend_errors.
Name
Type
Description
config_backend.errors
Counter
Number of errors in fetching or processing config from control-plane's backend.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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Theory Hazit
Thearthur Readié Washington (born November 3, 1978), better known by the stage name Theory Hazit is an American Christian hip hop artist and record producer from Cincinnati, Ohio.
History
Thearthur Readie Washington IV was born in Winchester, Kentucky, on November 3, 1978, to Tenecia Jackson and Thearthur Readie Washington III.
At the time his debut album was released in 2007, Theory Hazit had relocated to Cincinnati, Ohio. This album, entitled Extra Credit, was released on July 17, 2007, in the United States by Groove Attack Productions. It featured production from Tony Stone and Re:Flex the Architect. A review of Extra Credit written in Relevant compared Theory Hazit to Kanye West and Common as both a producer and an MC. Another review of this album, written by Omar Mouallem for Exclaim!, praised the album's song "I Just Wanna Come Home" for having "lyrics as contagious as its soulful hook." The album was also ranked as the 59th best hip hop album of 2007 by Quentin Huff in PopMatters.
Since then, he has released several additional albums, including Thr3e in 2012. He has also released another album entitled "Fall of the Light Bearer".
Discography
* Extra Credit (2007)
* Lord Fire (2008)
* Modern Marvels (2010) (with Toni Shift)
* Lord Fire 2 (2010)
* The Rock Is Steady (2011)
* Thr3e (2012)
* Monolith Monster (2013)
* The Fall Of The Lightbearer (2015)
* It's Whatever (2017)
* Ravioli & Beatbox (2017)
* Halftime Slow (2017)
* Bless Your Food (2017)
* This Is Damone (2017)
* Uglyface (2017)
* Eye See What You Did There (2017)
* Poor Thing (2017)
* It’s Me, Not You (2017)
* FEELS (2017)
* The Soul Chops (2018)
* I Love It Down Here (2019)
* yall still ain't washin yall hands (2020) (temporarily available)
* The Giraffe Tape (2021)
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WIKI
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Leucopogon elatior
Leucopogon elatior is a species of flowering plant in the heath family Ericaceae and is endemic to the south-west of Western Australia. It is a slender, erect or straggly shrub with broadly egg-shaped leaves, and white, tube-shaped flowers.
Description
Leucopogon elatior is a slender, erect or straggly shrub that typically grows to a height of 0.2–1 m. Its leaves are broadly egg-shaped to lance-shaped, 2–6 mm long with a more or less heart-shaped base. The flowers are arranged in cylindrical spike of many flowers with leaf-like bracts and small bracteoles. The sepals are about 2 mm long, the petals white and joined at the base to form a broadly bell-shaped tube about 4 mm long, the lobes longer than the petal tube. Flowering occurs from January to May, or July to November.
Taxonomy and naming
Leucopogon elatior as was first formally described in 1845 by Otto Wilhelm Sonder in Johann Georg Christian Lehmann's Plantae Preissianae. The specific epithet (elatior) means "taller".
Distribution and habitat
This leucopogon grows on sandplains, hillslopes and winter-wet places in the south-west of Western Australia.
Conservation status
Leucopogon elatior is classified as "not threatened" by the Western Australian Government Department of Biodiversity, Conservation and Attractions.
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Trump detours off campaign trail to tout new Washington hotel
WASHINGTON, Oct 26 (Reuters) - Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump planned a detour from the campaign trail on Wednesday to formally open a new hotel in what a top aide said would remind voters of his business accomplishments less than two weeks before the election. Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway, in several television interviews, said the event in Washington would not detract from the campaign’s efforts to rally voters before the Nov. 8 election. Trump, a real estate developer making his first run for elected office, is trailing his Democratic rival Hillary Clinton in national opinion polls. “It’s a quick pit stop,” Conway told CBS program “This Morning,” speaking at the Trump International Hotel, which opened for business last month about a mile from the White House. Trump, a former reality TV star, has held numerous events at his properties since launching his White House bid in June last year, including a trip to Scotland to open a refurbished golf resort in June this year. His campaign has stressed his credentials as a wealthy businessman, although Clinton and other political opponents have long pointed out that Trump’s career includes business failures, and have also criticized him for not making public his tax returns. Trump’s hotel event was scheduled for 11 a.m. ET (1500 GMT) ahead of two rallies in North Carolina, one of the key states that could determine who wins the White House. On Thursday, he heads to Ohio, another battleground state. Republican strategist Steve Schmidt, who led 2008 Republican presidential nominee John McCain’s campaign, said the hotel stop was the latest inexplicable act from Trump and was atypical behavior for someone trying to win the White House. “The walls are collapsing,” Schmidt told MSNBC in an interview. “He is not doing any of the normal activities that you’d be doing 13 days out in a presidential race for somebody who’s competitive. You don’t take a time-out to tend to your business interests.” Conway defended Trump’s decision to leave the campaign for a business stop, noting that Clinton went to a concert by singer Adele on Tuesday night in Miami, where the former secretary of state celebrated her birthday. She turned 69 on Wednesday. “Hillary Clinton has time to go to an Adele concert, and everybody thinks that’s really cool. Donald Trump stops off to unveil just an incredibly stunning piece of architecture and new ... first-class hotel and everybody’s hair’s on fire,” Conway told NBC’s “Today” program. Trump’s 263-room luxury hotel in Washington’s Old Post Office building has not escaped controversy, as preparations for its launch and its opening came in the middle of the presidential campaign. Trump has sued celebrity chefs Jose Andres and Geoffrey Zakarian for backing out of plans to run a restaurant there amid Trump’s harsh rhetoric towards Hispanics. Critics have also organized protests out front. Earlier this month, the hotel’s facade was sprayed painted with graffiti, NBC News reported. One of Trump’s sons, Eric Trump, said the Trump brand was “hotter than ever before” but that his father put his presidential campaign before his business interests. “Even if there was a price associated with it, I think he was willing to pay that price, because it’s just that important,” he told Fox News. On Tuesday, Trump stopped at his Doral National Golf Club in Florida as part of a campaign swing through the state, denouncing President Barack Obama’s signature healthcare overhaul because of rising insurance premiums. Clinton will continue to campaign in Florida, where many public opinion polls show a tight race. An average of polls compiled by RealClearPolitics showed the two candidates close in Florida, with Clinton at 46.4 percent compared to 44.8 percent for Trump in a race including minor candidates. With the campaigns focused on battleground states, Clinton has a strong lead in the race to secure the 270 Electoral College votes - or tally of wins from the states - needed to win the White House, according to results from Reuters/Ipsos States of the Nation project released on Saturday. Conway predicted Trump would win Florida and its 29 electoral votes, saying his supporters’ enthusiasm would motivate them to go out and vote. “There’s a lot of time left,” she told CBS. Reporting by Susan Heavey and Doina Chiacu; Editing by Frances
Kerry
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Portal:Military history of Australia/Selected anniversaries/August/August 6
August 6
* 1915 – World War I: Members of the 1st Division begin their assault on Lone Pine during the Gallipoli Campaign. The attack was part of the greater August Offensive.
* 1951 – National Service Training began. This conscription scheme continued to July 1960.
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dichlorophenylphosphine
Noun
* 1) An organophosphorus compound commonly used in the synthesis of elaborated phosphine ligands for coordination chemistry.
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Autobiography of a Yogi/Chapter 15
Chapter 15: The Cauliflower Robbery
"Master, a gift for you! These six huge cauliflowers were planted with my hands; I have watched over their growth with the tender care of a mother nursing her child." I presented the basket of vegetables with a ceremonial flourish.
"Thank you!" Sri Yukteswar's smile was warm with appreciation. "Please keep them in your room; I shall need them tomorrow for a special dinner."
I had just arrived in Puri {FN15-1} to spend my college summer vacation with my guru at his seaside hermitage. Built by Master and his disciples, the cheerful little two-storied retreat fronts on the Bay of Bengal.
I awoke early the following morning, refreshed by the salty sea breezes and the charm of my surroundings. Sri Yukteswar's melodious voice was calling; I took a look at my cherished cauliflowers and stowed them neatly under my bed.
"Come, let us go to the beach." Master led the way; several young disciples and myself followed in a scattered group. Our guru surveyed us in mild criticism.
"When our Western brothers walk, they usually take pride in unison. Now, please march in two rows; keep rhythmic step with one another." Sri Yukteswar watched as we obeyed; he began to sing: "Boys go to and fro, in a pretty little row." I could not but admire the ease with which Master was able to match the brisk pace of his young students.
"Halt!" My guru's eyes sought mine. "Did you remember to lock the back door of the hermitage?"
* Yogananda Image Gallery (MY GURU'S SEASIDE HERMITAGE AT PURI )
A steady stream of visitors poured from the world into the hermitage tranquillity. A number of learned men came with the expectation of meeting an orthodox religionist. A supercilious smile or a glance of amused tolerance occasionally betreayed that the newcomers anticipated nothing more than a few pious platitudes. Yet their reluctant departure would bring an expressed conviction that Sri Yukteswar had shown precise insight into their specialized fields of knowledge. My guru always had young resident disciples in his hermitage. He directed their minds and lives with that careful discipline in which the word "disciple" is etymologically rooted.--see puri.jpg]
"I think so, sir."
Sri Yukteswar was silent for a few minutes, a half-suppressed smile on his lips. "No, you forgot," he said finally. "Divine contemplation must not be made an excuse for material carelessness. You have neglected your duty in safeguarding the ashram; you must be punished."
I thought he was obscurely joking when he added: "Your six cauliflowers will soon be only five."
We turned around at Master's orders and marched back until we were close to the hermitage.
"Rest awhile. Mukunda, look across the compound on our left; observe the road beyond. A certain man will arrive there presently; he will be the means of your chastisement."
I concealed my vexation at these incomprehensible remarks. A peasant soon appeared on the road; he was dancing grotesquely and flinging his arms about with meaningless gestures. Almost paralyzed with curiosity, I glued my eyes on the hilarious spectacle. As the man reached a point in the road where he would vanish from our view, Sri Yukteswar said, "Now, he will return."
The peasant at once changed his direction and made for the rear of the ashram. Crossing a sandy tract, he entered the building by the back door. I had left it unlocked, even as my guru had said. The man emerged shortly, holding one of my prized cauliflowers. He now strode along respectably, invested with the dignity of possession.
The unfolding farce, in which my role appeared to be that of bewildered victim, was not so disconcerting that I failed in indignant pursuit. I was halfway to the road when Master recalled me. He was shaking from head to foot with laughter.
"That poor crazy man has been longing for a cauliflower," he explained between outbursts of mirth. "I thought it would be a good idea if he got one of yours, so ill-guarded!"
I dashed to my room, where I found that the thief, evidently one with a vegetable fixation, had left untouched my gold rings, watch, and money, all lying openly on the blanket. He had crawled instead under the bed where, completely hidden from casual sight, one of my cauliflowers had aroused his singlehearted desire.
I asked Sri Yukteswar that evening to explain the incident which had, I thought, a few baffling features.
My guru shook his head slowly. "You will understand it someday. Science will soon discover a few of these hidden laws."
When the wonders of radio burst some years later on an astounded world, I remembered Master's prediction. Age-old concepts of time and space were annihilated; no peasant's home so narrow that London or Calcutta could not enter! The dullest intelligence enlarged before indisputable proof of one aspect of man's omnipresence.
The "plot" of the cauliflower comedy can be best understood by a radio analogy. Sri Yukteswar was a perfect human radio. Thoughts are no more than very gentle vibrations moving in the ether. Just as a sensitized radio picks up a desired musical number out of thousands of other programs from every direction, so my guru had been able to catch the thought of the half-witted man who hankered for a cauliflower, out of the countless thoughts of broadcasting human wills in the world. {FN15-2} By his powerful will, Master was also a human broadcasting station, and had successfully directed the peasant to reverse his steps and go to a certain room for a single cauliflower.
Intuition {FN15-3} is soul guidance, appearing naturally in man during those instants when his mind is calm. Nearly everyone has had the experience of an inexplicably correct "hunch," or has transferred his thoughts effectively to another person.
The human mind, free from the static of restlessness, can perform through its antenna of intuition all the functions of complicated radio mechanisms-sending and receiving thoughts, and tuning out undesirable ones. As the power of a radio depends on the amount of electrical current it can utilize, so the human radio is energized according to the power of will possessed by each individual.
All thoughts vibrate eternally in the cosmos. By deep concentration, a master is able to detect the thoughts of any mind, living or dead. Thoughts are universally and not individually rooted; a truth cannot be created, but only perceived. The erroneous thoughts of man result from imperfections in his discernment. The goal of yoga science is to calm the mind, that without distortion it may mirror the divine vision in the universe.
Radio and television have brought the instantaneous sound and sight of remote persons to the firesides of millions: the first faint scientific intimations that man is an all-pervading spirit. Not a body confined to a point in space, but the vast soul, which the ego in most barbaric modes conspires in vain to cramp.
"Very strange, very wonderful, seemingly very improbable phenomena may yet appear which, when once established, will not astonish us more than we are now astonished at all that science has taught us during the last century," Charles Robert Richet, Nobel Prizeman in physiology, has declared. "It is assumed that the phenomena which we now accept without surprise, do not excite our astonishment because they are understood. But this is not the case. If they do not surprise us it is not because they are understood, it is because they are familiar; for if that which is not understood ought to surprise us, we should be surprised at everything-the fall of a stone thrown into the air, the acorn which becomes an oak, mercury which expands when it is heated, iron attracted by a magnet, phosphorus which burns when it is rubbed. . . . The science of today is a light matter; the revolutions and evolutions which it will experience in a hundred thousand years will far exceed the most daring anticipations. The truths-those surprising, amazing, unforeseen truths-which our descendants will discover, are even now all around us, staring us in the eyes, so to speak, and yet we do not see them. But it is not enough to say that we do not see them; we do not wish to see them; for as soon as an unexpected and unfamiliar fact appears, we try to fit it into the framework of the commonplaces of acquired knowledge, and we are indignant that anyone should dare to experiment further."
A humorous occurrence took place a few days after I had been so implausibly robbed of a cauliflower. A certain kerosene lamp could not be found. Having so lately witnessed my guru's omniscient insight, I thought he would demonstrate that it was child's play to locate the lamp.
Master perceived my expectation. With exaggerated gravity he questioned all ashram residents. A young disciple confessed that he had used the lamp to go to the well in the back yard.
Sri Yukteswar gave the solemn counsel: "Seek the lamp near the well."
I rushed there; no lamp! Crestfallen, I returned to my guru. He was now laughing heartily, without compunction for my disillusionment.
"Too bad I couldn't direct you to the vanished lamp; I am not a fortune teller!" With twinkling eyes, he added, "I am not even a satisfactory Sherlock Holmes!"
I realized that Master would never display his powers when challenged, or for a triviality.
Delightful weeks sped by. Sri Yukteswar was planning a religious procession. He asked me to lead the disciples over the town and beach of Puri. The festive day dawned as one of the hottest of the summer.
"Guruji, how can I take the barefooted students over the fiery sands?" I spoke despairingly.
"I will tell you a secret," Master responded. "The Lord will send an umbrella of clouds; you all shall walk in comfort."
I happily organized the procession; our group started from the ashram with a SAT-SANGA banner. {FN15-4} Designed by Sri Yukteswar, it bore the symbol of the single {FN15-5} eye, the telescopic gaze of intuition.
No sooner had we left the hermitage than the part of the sky which was overhead became filled with clouds as though by magic. To the accompaniment of astonished ejaculations from all sides, a very light shower fell, cooling the city streets and the burning seashore. The soothing drops descended during the two hours of the parade. The exact instant at which our group returned to the ashram, the clouds and rain passed away tracelessly.
"You see how God feels for us," Master replied after I had expressed my gratitude. "The Lord responds to all and works for all. Just as He sent rain at my plea, so He fulfills any sincere desire of the devotee. Seldom do men realize how often God heeds their prayers. He is not partial to a few, but listens to everyone who approaches Him trustingly. His children should ever have implicit faith in the loving-kindness of their Omnipresent Father." {FN15-6}
Sri Yukteswar sponsored four yearly festivals, at the equinoxes and solstices, when his students gathered from far and near. The winter solstice celebration was held in Serampore; the first one I attended left me with a permanent blessing.
The festivities started in the morning with a barefoot procession along the streets. The voices of a hundred students rang out with sweet religious songs; a few musicians played the flute and KHOL KARTAL (drums and cymbals). Enthusiastic townspeople strewed the path with flowers, glad to be summoned from prosaic tasks by our resounding praise of the Lord's blessed name. The long tour ended in the courtyard of the hermitage. There we encircled our guru, while students on upper balconies showered us with marigold blossoms.
Many guests went upstairs to receive a pudding of CHANNA and oranges. I made my way to a group of brother disciples who were serving today as cooks. Food for such large gatherings had to be cooked outdoors in huge cauldrons. The improvised wood-burning brick stoves were smoky and tear-provoking, but we laughed merrily at our work. Religious festivals in India are never considered troublesome; each one does his part, supplying money, rice, vegetables, or his personal services.
Master was soon in our midst, supervising the details of the feast. Busy every moment, he kept pace with the most energetic young student.
A SANKIRTAN (group chanting), accompanied by the harmonium and hand-played Indian drums, was in progress on the second floor. Sri Yukteswar listened appreciatively; his musical sense was acutely perfect.
"They are off key!" Master left the cooks and joined the artists. The melody was heard again, this time correctly rendered.
In India, music as well as painting and the drama is considered a divine art. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva-the Eternal Trinity-were the first musicians. The Divine Dancer Shiva is scripturally represented as having worked out the infinite modes of rhythm in His cosmic dance of universal creation, preservation, and dissolution, while Brahma accentuated the time-beat with the clanging cymbals, and Vishnu sounded the holy MRIDANGA or drum. Krishna, an incarnation of Vishnu, is always shown in Hindu art with a flute, on which he plays the enrapturing song that recalls to their true home the human souls wandering in MAYA-delusion. Saraswati, goddess of wisdom, is symbolized as performing on the VINA, mother of all stringed instruments. The SAMA VEDA of India contains the world's earliest writings on musical science.
The foundation stone of Hindu music is the RAGAS or fixed melodic scales. The six basic RAGAS branch out into 126 derivative RAGINIS (wives) and PUTRAS (sons). Each RAGA has a minimum of five notes: a leading note (VADI or king), a secondary note (SAMAVADI or prime minister), helping notes (ANUVADI, attendants), and a dissonant note (VIVADI, the enemy).
Each one of the six basic RAGAS has a natural correspondence with a certain hour of the day, season of the year, and a presiding deity who bestows a particular potency. Thus, (1) the HINDOLE RAGA is heard only at dawn in the spring, to evoke the mood of universal love; (2) DEEPAKA RAGA is played during the evening in summer, to arouse compassion; (3) MEGHA RAGA is a melody for midday in the rainy season, to summon courage; (4) BHAIRAVA RAGA is played in the mornings of August, September, October, to achieve tranquillity; (5) SRI RAGA is reserved for autumn twilights, to attain pure love; (6) MALKOUNSA RAGA is heard at midnights in winter, for valor.
The ancient rishis discovered these laws of sound alliance between nature and man. Because nature is an objectification of AUM, the Primal Sound or Vibratory Word, man can obtain control over all natural manifestations through the use of certain MANTRAS or chants. {FN15-7} Historical documents tell of the remarkable powers possessed by Miyan Tan Sen, sixteenth century court musician for Akbar the Great. Commanded by the Emperor to sing a night RAGA while the sun was overhead, Tan Sen intoned a MANTRA which instantly caused the whole palace precincts to become enveloped in darkness.
Indian music divides the octave into 22 SRUTIS or demi-semitones. These microtonal intervals permit fine shades of musical expression unattainable by the Western chromatic scale of 12 semitones. Each one of the seven basic notes of the octave is associated in Hindu mythology with a color, and the natural cry of a bird or beast-DO with green, and the peacock; RE with red, and the skylark; MI with golden, and the goat; FA with yellowish white, and the heron; SOL with black, and the nightingale; LA with yellow, and the horse; SI with a combination of all colors, and the elephant.
Three scales-major, harmonic minor, melodic minor-are the only ones which Occidental music employs, but Indian music outlines 72 THATAS or scales. The musician has a creative scope for endless improvisation around the fixed traditional melody or RAGA; he concentrates on the sentiment or definitive mood of the structural theme and then embroiders it to the limits of his own originality. The Hindu musician does not read set notes; he clothes anew at each playing the bare skeleton of the RAGA, often confining himself to a single melodic sequence, stressing by repetition all its subtle microtonal and rhythmic variations. Bach, among Western composers, had an understanding of the charm and power of repetitious sound slightly differentiated in a hundred complex ways.
Ancient Sanskrit literature describes 120 TALAS or time-measures. The traditional founder of Hindu music, Bharata, is said to have isolated 32 kinds of TALA in the song of a lark. The origin of TALA or rhythm is rooted in human movements-the double time of walking, and the triple time of respiration in sleep, when inhalation is twice the length of exhalation. India has always recognized the human voice as the most perfect instrument of sound. Hindu music therefore largely confines itself to the voice range of three octaves. For the same reason, melody (relation of successive notes) is stressed, rather than harmony (relation of simultaneous notes).
The deeper aim of the early rishi-musicians was to blend the singer with the Cosmic Song which can be heard through awakening of man's occult spinal centers. Indian music is a subjective, spiritual, and individualistic art, aiming not at symphonic brilliance but at personal harmony with the Oversoul. The Sanskrit word for musician is BHAGAVATHAR, "he who sings the praises of God." The SANKIRTANS or musical gatherings are an effective form of yoga or spiritual discipline, necessitating deep concentration, intense absorption in the seed thought and sound. Because man himself is an expression of the Creative Word, sound has the most potent and immediate effect on him, offering a way to remembrance of his divine origin.
The SANKIRTAN issuing from Sri Yukteswar's second-story sitting room on the day of the festival was inspiring to the cooks amidst the steaming pots. My brother disciples and I joyously sang the refrains, beating time with our hands.
By sunset we had served our hundreds of visitors with KHICHURI (rice and lentils), vegetable curry, and rice pudding. We laid cotton blankets over the courtyard; soon the assemblage was squatting under the starry vault, quietly attentive to the wisdom pouring from Sri Yukteswar's lips. His public speeches emphasized the value of KRIYA YOGA, and a life of self-respect, calmness, determination, simple diet, and regular exercise.
A group of very young disciples then chanted a few sacred hymns; the meeting concluded with SANKIRTAN. From ten o'clock until midnight, the ashram residents washed pots and pans, and cleared the courtyard. My guru called me to his side.
"I am pleased over your cheerful labors today and during the past week of preparations. I want you with me; you may sleep in my bed tonight."
This was a privilege I had never thought would fall to my lot. We sat awhile in a state of intense divine tranquillity. Hardly ten minutes after we had gotten into bed, Master rose and began to dress.
"What is the matter, sir?" I felt a tinge of unreality in the unexpected joy of sleeping beside my guru.
"I think that a few students who missed their proper train connections will be here soon. Let us have some food ready."
"Guruji, no one would come at one o'clock in the morning!"
"Stay in bed; you have been working very hard. But I am going to cook."
At Sri Yukteswar's resolute tone, I jumped up and followed him to the small daily-used kitchen adjacent to the second-floor inner balcony. Rice and DHAL were soon boiling.
My guru smiled affectionately. "Tonight you have conquered fatigue and fear of hard work; you shall never be bothered by them in the future."
As he uttered these words of lifelong blessing, footsteps sounded in the courtyard. I ran downstairs and admitted a group of students.
"Dear brother, how reluctant we are to disturb Master at this hour!" One man addressed me apologetically. "We made a mistake about train schedules, but felt we could not return home without a glimpse of our guru."
"He has been expecting you and is even now preparing your food."
Sri Yukteswar's welcoming voice rang out; I led the astonished visitors to the kitchen. Master turned to me with twinkling eyes.
"Now that you have finished comparing notes, no doubt you are satisfied that our guests really did miss their train!"
I followed him to his bedroom a half hour later, realizing fully that I was about to sleep beside a godlike guru.
Endnotes
{FN15-1} Puri, about 310 miles south of Calcutta, is a famous pilgrimage city for devotees of Krishna; his worship is celebrated there with two immense annual festivals, SNANAYATRA and RATHAYATRA.
{FN15-2} The 1939 discovery of a radio microscope revealed a new world of hitherto unknown rays. "Man himself as well as all kinds of supposedly inert matter constantly emits the rays that this instrument 'sees,'" reported the ASSOCIATED PRESS. "Those who believe in telepathy, second sight, and clairvoyance, have in this announcement the first scientific proof of the existence of invisible rays which really travel from one person to another. The radio device actually is a radio frequency spectroscope. It does the same thing for cool, nonglowing matter that the spectroscope does when it discloses the kinds of atoms that make the stars. . . . The existence of such rays coming from man and all living things has been suspected by scientists for many years. Today is the first experimental proof of their existence. The discovery shows that every atom and every molecule in nature is a continuous radio broadcasting station. . . . Thus even after death the substance that was a man continues to send out its delicate rays. The wave lengths of these rays range from shorter than anything now used in broadcasting to the longest kind of radio waves. The jumble of these rays is almost inconceivable. There are millions of them. A single very large molecule may give off 1,000,000 different wave lengths at the same time. The longer wave lengths of this sort travel with the ease and speed of radio waves. . . . There is one amazing difference between the new radio rays and familiar rays like light. This is the prolonged time, amounting to thousands of years, which these radio waves will keep on emitting from undisturbed matter."
{FN15-3} One hesitates to use "intuition"; Hitler has almost ruined the word along with more ambitious devastations. The Latin root meaning of INTUITION is "inner protection." The Sanskrit word AGAMA means intuitional knowledge born of direct soul-perception; hence certain ancient treatises by the rishis were called AGAMAS.
{FN15-4} SAT is literally "being," hence "essence; reality." SANGA is "association." Sri Yukteswar called his hermitage organization SAT-SANGA, "fellowship with truth."
{FN15-5} "If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."-MATTHEW 6:22. During deep meditation, the single or spiritual eye becomes visible within the central part of the forehead. This omniscient eye is variously referred to in scriptures as the third eye, the star of the East, the inner eye, the dove descending from heaven, the eye of Shiva, the eye of intuition, etc.
{FN15-6} "He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? . . . he that teacheth man knowledge, shall he not know?"-PSALM 94:9-10.
{FN15-7} Folklore of all peoples contains references to incantations with power over nature. The American Indians are well-known to have developed sound rituals for rain and wind. Tan Sen, the great Hindu musician, was able to quench fire by the power of his song. Charles Kellogg, the California naturalist, gave a demonstration of the effect of tonal vibration on fire in 1926 before a group of New York firemen. "Passing a bow, like an enlarged violin bow, swiftly across an aluminum tuning fork, he produced a screech like intense radio static. Instantly the yellow gas flame, two feet high, leaping inside a hollow glass tube, subsided to a height of six inches and became a sputtering blue flare. Another attempt with the bow, and another screech of vibration, extinguished it."
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SS Oceania (1907)
SS Oceania was an Austro-Hungarian hospital ship that ran aground off Cape Rodoni, Albania on 4 October 1918 after striking a mine in the Adriatic Sea.
Construction
Oceania was built at the Alexander Stephen & Sons shipyard in Glasgow, Scotland in 1907. She was launched on 10 September 1907, and completed that same year. The ship was 119.2 m long and had a beam of 15.2 m. She was assessed at and had two triple expansion engines driving double screw propellers. The ship could reach a maximum speed of 15 kn.
Early career
Oceania made her maiden voyage from Trieste to New York on 26 September 1908, and kept sailing on that line until the outbreak of the First World War.
World War I and sinking
After the start of World War I, Oceania was requisitioned by the Austro-Hungarian Navy in October 1915 for service as a hospital ship. All hospital ships were distinctively painted in white with a green stripe down the side and three red crosses on each side as well, this was done to differentiate these "non-combatant" vessels from other shipping. But sometimes even these non-combatants became targets of enemy submarines. Oceania was given the prefix HS, which stands for Hospital Ship.
Oceania struck a mine in the Adriatic Sea and subsequently beached herself off Cape Rodoni, Albania before being abandoned on 4 October 1918. The wreck of Oceania was thereafter torpedoed and sunk by the Austro-Hungarian torpedo boat Tb 16 on 15 October 1918, to avoid her falling into Italian hands. No lives are reported to have been lost during these events.
Wreck
The current condition of the wreck is unknown.
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Stanley Reed (British politician)
Sir Herbert Stanley Reed (28 January 1872 – 17 January 1969) was an important figure in the media of India in the early 20th century who later became a Conservative Party politician in the UK. He was conservative member for the Aylesbury division of Buckinghamshire.
Reed was the longest serving Editor of The Times of India from 1907 until 1924. He received correspondence from the major figures of India such as Mahatma Gandhi. In all he lived in India for fifty years. He was respected in the United Kingdom as an expert on Indian current affairs. He christened Jaipur as 'the Pink City of India'.
Reed was returned as Conservative Member of Parliament (MP) for Aylesbury in a by-election in 1938. He was re-elected at the 1945 general election and stepped down at the 1950 general election, when aged 78. He served as chairman of the India and Burma Association.
He died in January 1969 aged 96.
Personal
In 1901 he married Lilian Humphrey, the daughter of John Humphrey, CBE of Bombay and London.
Publications
* Memoirs: The India I Knew, 1897-1947 (1952)
* The Times of India Directory and Year Book Including Who's Who. The Times of India. 1964.
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Advantages of Weight Lifting Straps
Buying a basic pair of weight lifting straps from the fitness store for 15 or so dollars can go a long way. Here we will take a look at why you should consider using them on your back exercises, and also some reasons why people prefer not to use them.
For those who don't know, lifting straps are used by wrapping them around your wrists and then the barbell/dumbbell or cable handle. This pretty much attaches the weight to your wrist, and the strain is taken off your hands and forearms.
Using weight lifting straps properly will allow you to focus all of your effort on the target muscle, which will most likely be the back muscles because you will only need straps for back exercises.
To understand the effectiveness of weight lifting straps, I will give you an example. Just say you're doing a set of deadlifts and you aim for 7 reps. On your 6th rep your grip fails and your forearms are killing you, so you cannot possibly perform another rep.
The point of deadlifts is to blast your back and upper body, so you shouldn't have to stop because of your grip. That's where weight lifting wrist straps come in.
If you were using lifting straps though, this would never happen because your grip and forearms are taken out of the equation. You can then concentrate on working your back for great muscle gains. You will also notice that with lifting straps you will be able to lift more weight immediately, and we all know that by lifting a heavier weight you will gain more muscle.
So if I were you I would definitely consider using straps on your back exercises such as deadlifts, barbell rows, and shrugs. The only disadvantage to them is that you won't be working your forearms as much, and your grip strength won't improve as much.
To combat this you can simply perform specific forearm and grip exercises, eg: Wrist Curls. I believe that the advantages of weight lifting wrist straps outweigh the single disadvantage they have.
So go out and get some! You can find them at most fitness equipment and general sports stores. Lifting straps will help you on your way to developing that wide, strong and muscular back that all lifters strive for.
Return to Weight Lifting Apparel from Weight Lifting Straps.
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ESSENTIALAI-STEM
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BIG mousecursor R9-290
Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by KBDE, Dec 31, 2013.
1. xddevv231
xddevv231 New Member
Messages:
2
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0
GPU:
1A
wow thanks for this!!!!
one question:
I have a Syncmaster PX2370... what hex values would I use to set it to 23? I used the ones provided, but it blows up the windows.
Thanks
2. TacticalQuit
TacticalQuit Member
Messages:
33
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0
GPU:
2x R9 290X
Height: 286.41mm
Length: 509.17mm
Play with those 2 values until you get approximately that.
Higher hex, higher mm
3. KBDE
KBDE Master Guru
Messages:
217
Likes Received:
26
GPU:
R290 4gb
I would try: (HEX 34 1D) 520 x 290 mm (23,4 in)
These are the official edid values from a 24" 1080p monitor i have here.
Also make sure the scaling is @100% in windows if its still big after loading the fixed driver.
4. supernova
supernova New Member
Messages:
7
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0
GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
Some additional questions for 'big mousecursor'.
Hi all!
Sorry for using an old post, but I think the solution given by KBDE is incredibly helpful for many AMD card owners. Thanks a lot for the beginners guide!
Since I'm sceptical that AMD will solve the Big cursor issue with a driverupdate soon, I might just have to use the guide myself. I am, however, left with a few questions:
- The final beginnersguide by KBDE doesn't mention flashing fixed Edid data into the TV, like he mentioned doing in an earlier reply. Does this mean it's not necessary for most of us?
- I understand that I need to boot windows without signed driver-enforcement to be able to install the custom-made monitor driver. But do I have to boot like this everytime I start up the computer, or will it accept the driver in non-testmode after it has been installed? And what happens if I boot the computer while not in testmode? Will my computer be able to see my monitor at all, or will I be in trouble?
- Assuming AMD DOES actually manage to fix the big cursor issue with a new officially signed driver, how can I best uninstall the custom-made driver, and replace it with AMD's new one?
- I can't find the HEX values for a 40 inch widescreen to fill in with 'monitor asset manager'. Does anyone know them?
Thank you very much for your help!
5. KBDE
KBDE Master Guru
Messages:
217
Likes Received:
26
GPU:
R290 4gb
Flashing the fixed edid to the monitor/hdtv is only a luxury, not really needed at all.
Once you installed the driver you dont need to boot windows without signed driver-enforcement again. Its just a one time only event.
Uninstalling is easy, right click, uninstall.
40inch i dont know... but just so you know, windows has the habid to increase everyrthing on screen once you go above a certain displaysize, i'm not sure when this happens, but if you use the 24" or 26" values this aint a problem.
6. supernova
supernova New Member
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7
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0
GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
Thanks for the fast reply.
I'll try this tomorrow, and hopefully I'll be gaming with a normal sized mousecursor soon :) . What a relief that would be!
7. supernova
supernova New Member
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7
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GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
Hmmm, that didn't go according to plan...
I created a monitor.inf file following your instructions. That went smoothly. The problem is, that when I want to update the driver in device manager, it doesn't seem to recognize the monitor.inf file. When I direct it manually to the right folder, it says "the best version" of the the devicedriver is already installed, and "no new or better driver versions are found" (well, something like that anyway, I'm translating from a Dutch windows version here). I booted with the unsigned driver option, and I also tried it with windows in testmode, but that gave the same result. Any ideas what could cause this?
I'm wondering about a few things:
- Are you running on (windows 7) 64 bit as well?
- Does the location of the monitor.inf file, or the filename itself make a difference when it comes to recognising this file by windows?
- The Getedid and monitor asset manager were installed in my (x84) program files folder. Would the created driver be different if those programs were installed in the 64 bit program files folder?
- Is there any other way to install a monitor driver than through device manager?
These are my random thoughts about what could be causing this proble, but ofcourse every suggestion what could be wrong would be very welcome,
Thanks.
8. supernova
supernova New Member
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7
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0
GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
Is there anyone who could point me in the right direction with the problem described in my previous reply. I only have untill Friday to return my R9 290 to the store, but it would be a shame to do so, only because of the driver issue (unfortunatly the new ATI-drivers released recently also didn't fix the big cursor problem).
Any pointers to what could be causing my computer to not recognize the custom made monitordriver would be much appreciated.
9. KBDE
KBDE Master Guru
Messages:
217
Likes Received:
26
GPU:
R290 4gb
There is not much special to it. With windows7 you don't even have to disable driving signing. Just go to the device manager update the monitor driver to the just created monitor.inf
Don't let windows search for a new one automatically, but point to it manually. You will have to click a few times for that. If done incorrectly windows complains its already good the way it is. So make sure to click the correct buttons.
After its correctly installed the monitor name should rename from "Generic PNP monitor" to something else (depends on the monitor/tv you have) if it doesn't it isn't installed correctly. Try again. ;)
After this reboot the pc and the mouse should be normal. :)
10. supernova
supernova New Member
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7
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0
GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
I would expect it to be really easy too. Just in case I'm missing something really obvious here, I'll describe the steps I'm taking:
- Go to Device Manager
- Double click on Generic PnP Display
- Click update
- Click "Search my computer for drivers" (I'm translating from Dutch windows, so I might be off a little with the exact translation)
- Then I click the "Browse" button, and browse to the folder that contains the monitor.inf file (Program files (X86)\GetEdid1.2). (I tried both with, and without the subfolder checkmark).
- When the right folder is displayed next to the "Browse" button, I click "next"
- A split second later a screen is displayed that tells me "The best drivers for your device are already installed". A "close" button is the only option left at this point.
One thing I did notice: The monitor.inf file doesn't pick up my TV, but my Marantz receiver, which is in between the two. The resolution, audio etc. data it detects seem to be correct though.
Are the steps I'm taking above correct? Thanks.
11. KBDE
KBDE Master Guru
Messages:
217
Likes Received:
26
GPU:
R290 4gb
Nah, not correct. You let windows search automatically.
In windows 8.1 its like this:
You have to click update driver, then browse (lower option), then let me pick a driver, then let me pick from a list of device drivers.... , then have disk, then browse to the monitor.inf then confirm a few times. ready. :)
In 7 if i remember right it should be simular. Just never click an option that windows should search automatically.
Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
12. supernova
supernova New Member
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7
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0
GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
I guess my translation of the option I chose wasn't very good than :) . I was careful not to select the automatic update option, but the manual (lower) one instead. When I subsequently select the option to choose from a list, it doesn't find the monitor.inf file. Same story when I manually select the folder where the driver is located, it just doesn't appear to see it.
13. KBDE
KBDE Master Guru
Messages:
217
Likes Received:
26
GPU:
R290 4gb
Then you still clicked the wrong options i'm affraid. If done correctly you do not select a folder to search in, but the monitor.inf file itself.
14. supernova
supernova New Member
Messages:
7
Likes Received:
0
GPU:
Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X oc
You sir, deserve a Medal! Despite my stupidity, I finally managed to update the driver. I was indeed using the wrong "browse" option, as you mentioned. Thanks to your instructions, I finally found the right option, and everything seems to work as it should. I hope you don't mind one last question:
- Will installing a future official catalyst driverupdate replace my custom made monitor driver as well? (and therefore: Will I have to manually install the custom made monitordriver again?)
Much respect for your solution and patience. Thank you!
15. KBDE
KBDE Master Guru
Messages:
217
Likes Received:
26
GPU:
R290 4gb
Nah i don't think you have to reinstall it everytime. Monitor |= display driver.
That said; keep the monitor.inf somewhere safe so you can reinstall if necessary.
16. Eustachy
Eustachy New Member
Messages:
1
Likes Received:
0
GPU:
Radeon R7 260X
I have a r7 260x, a Samsung TV and a HDMI cord, ran into this problem, thankful that I'm not alone here. I followed those instructions and it did indeed work, after I reboot the big cursor is gone.
However, if I reboot again at some point after that, the big cursor comes back. Even though the fixed driver is still loaded. I can fix it again by replacing the default driver then going through all the steps again but it is irritating. Is there some reason why the big cursor goes away at first but then comes back? I'm starting to think I should just buy a DVI or DisplayPort cord but I am too cheap
17. kumars
kumars New Member
Messages:
1
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0
GPU:
Radeon HD 5750
KBDE, U are a savior!!!!
Happened to me after installing AMD Catalyst 15.7...
Thanx!
18. brubaker
brubaker New Member
Messages:
9
Likes Received:
0
GPU:
Vapor-X R9 290 4G D5
amd are just incompetent, after she broke my balls for a week at every boot the computer with the notice of the new driver in output, finally decide to install them, and after I installed the mouse huge problem, now I have to spend time to remedy a problem because of their drivers plagued by problems....
with nvidia, I never had these stupid problems that make losing only time...:3eyes:
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