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Multigrain rye sourdough problems I have been making a dark rye sourdough from a recipe in “Crust.” It calls for 300g white flour, 500g dark rye flour, 400g sponge, 20g salt, and about 530g water. My starter is 50-50 flour/water by weight. The recipe on p 59 of the book by Bertinet calls for 600g of water but I find th...	Not sure What Bertinet suggests but with such a heavy rye I would skip the slap n fold technique and use a different method for mixing like pinching and folding and following up with a fold or two during the bulk. Rye doesn't develop gluten like wheat flour and is known for being very sticky due to the pentosans, I be...
She's not the prettiest girl at the dance, but... It was absolutely delicious. My best loaf! But the whole underside exploded so I'm hoping someone here can tell me where I'm going wrong. I'm pretty sure it's the way I'm shaping the boules. First off, this is the first time I put the sponge in the fridge. The fridge is...	If your underside gives out... oh dear, that sounds like the start of a terrible joke. Seriously though, your problems are probably two fold. Insufficient tension and sealing during shaping. Really make sure you seal your seams shut during shaping, And watch your slashes. Try making a tic-tac-toe shape on boules, keepi...
Confused about feeding ratios Hello all,as I'm starting to delve deeper into the world of starters I'm becoming increasingly curious about different feeding regimes. So far what I've been doing is taking my 200 g of starter, discarding half ( = 100 g of starter left) and adding 50 g of flour and 50 g of water to bring ...	I am no expert, but yes, I am no expert, but yes, work the ratio, then the total amount you need at the end, and work backwards. So if you want to have 200 grams of starter at 1:1:1, discard all but 66, then add 66 water and 66 flour, and you will be at 199. I don't bake with sourdough all that much, but I have bee...
My Tartine country bread Hi to all. Merry Chrystmas!I'm new of this site, and I wanna share with you my first experience with the country bread described in the famous book "Tartine bread".I start with few pics:I am quite satisfied, but I want some good suggestions to be able to make a bread more like the original.The ...	Are you using steam in the Are you using steam in the oven? There are several ways to add steam. It would help in opening up the crust where you score the bread.The color of the crust and the texture of the crumb looks fantastic!
Yeast Water question Today I made these Rustic durum baguettes [formula was posted by isand88] with my yeast water made from concord grapes. They were a hit! Here's some photosThey were difficult to score and maneuver, but they still bloomed nicely in the oven. My first attempt at baguettes! And my second bake using th...	What I do to replace commercial yeast in recipes is to make a small poolish using YW and flour and deducting the from the recipe water and flour. The size if the YW poolish depends on the amount of the yeast in the recipe. For this small amount, I would use 25 g of YW and 25 g of the dough flour to make a 50 g pooli...
wheat sourdough starter, increased volume A question about how much your sourdough increases during the feeding processTime	Feeded sourdough, for example 50 g sourdough starter + 100 g water + 100 g flourTime B: Active sourdough starter, ready for baking How much did your sourdough starter increases in volume between time A and B? For example, 100 % = double volume...
Starter a la Tartine I followed the recipe in the Tartine book #2 for making a starter. By day 3 I saw some activity but by day 4 a crust had formed as well as some mold and a foul smell - not the nice foul smell of a bubbling starter but a really foul smell of a rotten starter. I threw everything out and tried again, ...	Start with pure rye flour, Start with pure rye flour, and pineapple juice. An enzyme in pineapple juice (as well as the acidity) inhibits certain types of non desirable growth. I've had much success with Peter Reinharts method.
Sourdough starter mould after 12 hours!!! I started a sourdough culture last night at a ratio of 1:1. Warm temperature last night and today, 26°C. it rose slightly this morning and I’ve gone to feed it and I can already see red mould on top! I’ve been told this is bad and is when an old starter should be thrown away bu...	Difficult to tell Not so clear in the photos. Difficult to advise what to do. On the one hand i'm for salvaging where possible especially if it's a starter one has kept going for a while and it's not red/pinkish mould. Yours is less than a day old so not the end of the world if you start again and it does look red (ish...
From sour beer to sourdough? I'm brand new to sourdough starters so please excuse a potentially ignorant question. I'm trying to avoid wasting time and resources on well explored blind alleys . The TFL search function only turned up a few semi-germane threads.The gist of my question is as follows: is it worthwhile t...	From what I understand, most From what I understand, most sourdough cultures start off based on the yeast and LAB bacteria in the flour. Overtime, the bacterial flora shifts from the culture found in the flour, to those found locally. Thus, build your starter, leave the lid off, feed it, and all of the local beasties s...
Sour Oats? Does anyone know if you can use a sourdough culture to sour oats instead of using active yoghurt? Cheers! Tim	The things you learn.... This (i.e. the whole soured-oats phenomenon) was a new one on me, but the question made me curious and I poked around a bit. Sure enough, it seems that rye sourdough culture is exactly the right thing! I also saw anecdotal evidence of souring with lemon juice or vinegar. Dang, I think I need to...
Autolyse oops Well I tried a long overnight autolyse. Not thinking, I used the bowl that I'd built my previous levain in. Feeling lazy, I just used my bowl scraper to clean out the bowl before adding flour for the autolyse. I was feeling lazy, and figured 'good enough.' . Needless to say, I returned to a bowl full of h...	but your mistake Has benefits.Scenario we all to often hear about..."Oh no I by mistake used all my starter in the dough"As long as you haven't washed the starter container up then simply add flour plus water and voila - starter saved.:)
Sourdough problem I have been baking bread a few years, initially in a bread machine but more recently using the machine only for mixing and kneading the dough.I have a plain white bread recipe that gives me a perfect loaf every time without exception.Recently I decided to try to convert this to a sourdough loaf, so to...	Good day sir :) This sounds Good day sir :) This sounds like you left it in bulk for too long. Try fermenting at roomtemp for 6-8 hours. I routinely make 100% 75% hydration sourdough. I start with 10-20% of my dough as a preferment. I stretch and fold a bunch of times until the texture and gluten development is good. ...
How much starter is too little? Hello everyoneIt has been a while since I posted on here. Work catches up on you sometimes. Have been baking when I can ALL wholegrains as usualHow much starter can you use when making 100% wholegrain loves. i.e : spelt, rye, WWIs putting in 2- 5% of flour weight just too little?Also whe...	Depends on the flour type But I've found my starter getting imbalanced and changing when going higher than a 1 to 20 (starter to flour) feed. I think using less than 5% starter to flour weight is dangerous for the stability of the starter. One or two such feeds to rescue a starter, say like when using only the scrapp...
Changing hydration for wholegrain flours...? I was building a loaf of sourdough today, and I ran out ofwhite. All I had left was a bag of Robin Hood Multigrain bread flour, which isn't my favorite. Since I was stuck, I topped up the remaining required flour with the multigrain. The resulting dough feels like a low 70%...	Whole Wheat Flour Whole wheat flour does require more liquid than plain white flour. The bran just takes up more water in swelling. It is also a good idea to let the whole wheat soak for an hour or more to complete the softening of the bran. My 50% whole wheat sourdough is about 78% hydration and the white sourdough...
Doubling Recipe? I am really happy with the sourdough recipe I have right now. It makes about an 850 gram loaf. I bought a couple of bannetons - one round and one oval. The round is for a 750 gr loaf (although I proofed my loaf in that one just fine) and the oval one is for a 1.5 kg loaf.If I want to make a larger lo...	Simple answer is Yes. Just double it. Easier to understand if you work in bakers percentages. Why oh why are you still feeding your starter like that?
Analyzing a sourdough bake session Here's a formula I've been working on:Light Whole Wheat Sugar Free SourdoughOverall FormulaBread Flour26.15 oz55%WW Flour21.4 oz45%Water33.45 oz70.35%Salt.9 oz1.9%Butter3 oz6.3%Total Yield5 lb, 4.9 oz176.45%Liquid-Levain Build (night before)Bread Flour7.15 oz100%Water8.9 oz125%Mature ...	2 things affect affects rise times Proof Box:You noted that your ambient temp was 76F. There would be a noticeable decrease in rise time if you were able to increase the temp to 80-85F. After I started using a proof box (Brod and Taylor), I notice this difference myself. My preferment ripening can be as little as 4 hou...
Going from 200g to 250g of starter Hello,I'm new to the world of sourdough baking so sorry if this is too basic a question:I'm currently working on getting 200g of sourdough starter ready to use. Once it's ready I'd like to use a recipe that calls for 250 g of starter. I'm not planning on maintaining a "mother" for now...	questions Hard to say without knowing a little more. Do you know the hydration level of your starter? i.e. the percentage of liquid in relation to the weight of the flour. Example: a starter composed of 100 grams flour and 125 grams of water is said to have 125% hydration. Also what hydration rate is called for in the ...
Proofing Temperature Although I haven't posted much lately, I still have been baking. The last 3 most recent bakes have been interesting. Bake 1 (about 5 weeks ago) was for Thanksgiving. I made 2 batches of SD dough using a modified Reihart BBA basic sourdough ... a little different than what I've posted here before, I...	acid Gluten in acidic water will depolymerize (break down) over a prolonged period of time. Higher temperatures speed up the process. A couple of hours at 80°F should not cause too much degradation.Ford
My sourdough starter is rising faster than instant yeast, normal? Yesterday i have taken a very small amount of instant yeast (less than 0.5g) mixed with 50g water and 50g bread flour. I want to see how the rise could be. The mixture had risen for almost 5 times in volume. This afternoo, after i have done the feeding ...	None experienced or come None experienced or come across any sourdough starters with similar condition?
Will this work? Amish Friendship Starter hello all! I made an Amish Friendship Bread starter. The starter turned out well and I even gave some away. I made a cake with some of mine and although it over cooked slightly it was still yummy. I took the rest of my starter separated it and put it in the fridge. It's been in...	Go for it! It may need a Go for it! It may need a couple hours at room temp to be ready to bake, but I see no reason why you couldn't bake with it. Yeast activity slows down at refrigerator temps, but they are still somewhat active. You may try putting it in a warmer-than-room-temp environment for a while to jump start...
Health of my starter My starter is about 3 weeks old now. At the start of the 6th day I started refrigerating after allowing it to ferment approximately 8 hours, then feeding it every 3 days. My house stays pretty cool in the winter, so where I keep it when out is a pretty steady 65ºF. I'm following Peter Reinhart's fo...	often thickening a starter will slow it down. Logical, as there is more flour food to chew on so it takes longer until the yeast numbers are up. Be careful not to feed too soon and taste the starter to make sure there is enough build up of acid before feeding more flour. Watch the starter carefully and let the starte...
Am I the only idiot? So, I was enjoying my last loaf of sourdough over dinner with my family, and in a Zinfandel induced moment of clarity, I realized........all of my starter went into the dough for the loaf!!! Ack! Poor guy, he deserved so much better! :(I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who has done this, and...	Hi rgreenberg2000 Sorry, I have only * almost * done it. lolIn the last moment I realised and put 1 tbsp back in the Starter container for feeding. phewwwNow I make sure that I feed my starter FIRST once I took out what I needed.
How to keep my starter alive while I travel? I'll be travelling for 2 weeks and I'm horrified at the thought of my viable starter dying and having to start from scratch all over again. I'm planning to feed it and stick in the fridge and say a little prayer. Will that work?	Better than working, it will Better than working, it will be just fine. If your starter is very healthy, two weeks in the fridge is nothing. Look up dabrownman's method. He keeps his for a LOT longer than that! I don't know how you're currently maintaining your starter or how in-tune you are to the starter's timings, b...
Hydration in Cook's Illustrated sourdough recipe (I would've asked the folks at Cook's Illustrated / America's Test Kitchen this question but I didn't see any way of doing so for a non-subscriber.)I bought a copy of Cook's Illustrated All-Time Best Bread Recipes. Very good book, in general. But unless I'm doing my math...	I'm dreadful at math So sorry--I was trying to respond on my tablet yesterday and the server repeatedly got hung up.I tried to make a Cook's Illustrated bread recipe a few months back--from one of their emails--and the dough was very very dry. On paper, I sensed something was off, and I was right. I added a few health...
Tourist trap or the real deal? So, I'm brand new to baking bread. In fact, I'm brand new to baking period. My mother taught me to cook starting around age 8. I can cook pretty good. I have a passion for BBQ. But I recently have caught the baking bug. Here’s what happened. I went on a fishing trip in Alaska. I had great...	So how much starter do you have and how have you been feeding it and at what hydration?
Carl's Starter - when to add I am brand new to sourdough.I received Carl's starter and got it started with the 1 Tbsp flour/water, after the initial softening. I am now at just over 24 hours. I am seeing a tiny bit of activity, I think. When do I add the next flour/water, and how much? I have read so many different i...	Instructions for reviving dried starter at carlsfriends.net/revive.txt
Starter Troubles Hi all, I'm new here but I've been reading this forum to get some ideas. I've been trying to get a decent starter going for awhile now. My current batch is about 3 weeks old now and still won't rise much. I tried using the pineapple juice method to get it started and only use rye flour and water no...	What kind of flour are you What kind of flour are you feeding it? And how much (quantities in g or cups) are you discarding and feeding? You have bubbles, so it does have some activity already. Do this to help kickstart it further: Try not feeding it for 1 day.On day 2, without discarding any starter, feed it with flo...
Can I collect local San Fran yeast when I visit? Will I get a unique tasting bread from the local yeast I collect when I travel? I can order SD cultures that the seller purports to be from a certain location in the world (Egyptian,Greek, Alaska, etc) and that they are each unique. Is this true? So when I travel to San ...	Unique? um maybe. If you buy the flour in SF and use the water from SF to start a culture in SF, you will have a SF culture. But, how long will you be there? If you don't stay long enough to get a good strong culture, it may be for naught. As long as the culture is in initial development stages, there is always a chanc...
pros and cons of differing sourdough starter techniques I'm wondering if anyone has any insight/experience/opinions on some variations I know for starting a sourdough culture. I first learned from Reinhart's BBA, and have also used some of Reinhart's later techniques, but have recently been reading Forkish's FWSY.Speci...	I prefer to start off with a very small amount and build. Reason being is for the first week it's going to need daily feeding/s and while creating a starter there's going to be some discard otherwise you'll end up with a swimming pool. As it is even if you start off with a very small amount you'll have to discard some....
Open crumb with baker's yeast vs sourdough starter Something that has been baffling me is why my sourdough have a more open crumb than my yeast breads. I would use the same ingredients and the same hydration, and roughly the same handling. My sourdough breads would turn out with large holes in the crumb but somehow yea...	Have you tried a longer bulk rise with less yeast?
Delayed Oven Spring Hello friends,I have an issue to which I have not found an answer yet. I am attempting to make the tartine country bread and am running into a strange issue. Previously I had some problems with the dough itself but since, I have resolved it. Now, I am sticking to the exact recipe in the tartine book...	Good questions I can only give you my observations with my loaves. However, one of my baking goals was "consistency". My sourdough loaves now behave exactly as every other has done for the past two or three years.I use a baking stone, preheated. I create steam, starting before loading the loaves, despite the fact I lo...
Fitting a sourdough cycle with full time work Now that I feel I'm on top of making basic, failproof sourdough, my next bread project is to focus on the following problem: Usually starter refreshes, bulk rises etc. using a sourdough starter take about 5-6 hours if done at room temperature. But 5-6 hours is a terribly in...	I do the latter one: set up a I do the latter one: set up a preferment before leaving work (as early as 6:00 am), and doing the final rise and baking when I come from work. In order to have a preferment that is ready and just ripe when I come home, I feed it 12 hours earlier with only little amount of starter (say a sc...
How soon after feeding the starter can one make a preferment? Is 3 hours after feeding too soon? I'm in singapore so it's always hot and humid here :)	Variables It depends on how active your starter is, what your ratios of starter/flour/water are, and temperature. For some people, 3 hours might be too long, and for some 3 hours might be too little time.The important thing is that your starter is showing plenty of signs of activity. For liquidy starters, that might lo...
? Transporting my bram My friend is coming to visit, I want to send her home with some of the bram I have already going. How should I do it? She'll be in the car for at least 6 to 7 hours and in the plane another 4 hours. Should I just freeze it, and give it to her in the morning when she leaves? Should I feed it f...	Typo? Do you want to give away your pram? Your brain? Your barm? Hmmm ... given the context, I'm guessing you mean "barm," and I'm guessing you mean the sourdough starter that Reinhart incorrectly calls "barm." I think there are two "best" ways, but first you have to understand that you can adjust the hydration level ...
How much levain to keep when getting ready to bake Hey folks,I'm new to the fresh loaf but have been a member and following lots of amazing stuff for months now. Seems like a really great community of passionate bread bakers, which I have now become.Question:How much levain do you keep when refreshing to prep for bakin...	Sorry everybody. Posted it Sorry everybody. Posted it twice by accident. Oops!
How to make a sourdough starter Due to recent influx of sourdough starter questions and troubleshooting just thought i'd share this with you all. Came across this video on youtube and it's really nicely done. One of the best out there. How to make a sourdough starter: http://youtu.be/SuU0xmqEZyI Hope this helps.	That is a good video - shows how easy it is but, the comment that a whole rye starter limits the bread you can bake with it is wrong. You can bake any bread with it no worries.
Starter Woes Hi all,I'm sure you're sick of starter related posts now, but I wondered if you could lend a hand. I've had my starter for 3 wks, and received it from the Leeds Bread Coop bakery where I did a one day course. This was a rye starter and i have kept it at room temperature, removed 1/2 and fed it daily with 5...	The starter looks lively Hey Tom, Your starter looks lively and healthy enough. You say you feed it 50g flour and 50g water. How much starter are you starting with? The relevance is all in the relation of starter inoculation to fresh flour. If you are only feeding once a day and keeping at room temp I'd say no more...
It's all about the starter 3-4 years of baking now with lots and ups and downs has taught me one important thing. It's all about the starter/leaven. If the starter/leaven is strong and ready, I will get a fast rise and a solid bake. I will be able to bulk rise in 4-5 hours and keep it in a 37 F fridge for more than 12 ...	How do you know when it is How do you know when it is active enough to make bread? How much does it need to rise in how much time for you to consider it ready? Thanks.
Starters from fermented fruits Has anyone made starters from fermenting fruits such as apples and raisins?I'm made some great tasting loaves but I've also churned out a couple that tasted really bland. I know it's because fruits aren't the same all the time. But does anyone have any experience with this?Would like to k...	Plenty of people here have done this. What you are referring to though is Yeast Waters, rather than starters. If you search for that term in this site you should find plenty of threads where people show how to make them and how to use them.
Carl's Oregon Trail starter question I received the dry starter and am ready to activate. The instructions says to use white flour, but I would like to use it for whole wheat bread. Will it start effectively using whole wheat flour? If not, is there a way to start it with white flour and gradually wean it over to whole...	Both should work. Whole wheat Both should work. Whole wheat may help it activate more rapidly (and rye flour probably even more so). From my experience, I have noticed that some starters take some time to adapt to different flour than what it's initially raised with (pun intended). YMMV. If white is suggested to start ...
Recipe calls for Stiff I have a mature regular starter. 1:1:1 using 50/50 malted bread flour and whole grain rye flour. Definitely not liquid, but also not stiff. I have a recipe that calls for 16 grams stiff starter. Would using 16 grams of my starter be equivalent? I just started a stiff starter for the heck of it bu...	At 16g It's not going to make much difference in the final dough. "A stiff starter" is a bit non specific. However it's usually 60% hydrated or less. So let's compare a stiff to a liquid starter at 16g...Stiff Starter: 6g water + 10g flourLiquid Starter: 8g water+ 8g flourThe recipe calls for a stiff starter probably b...
Creating a Nancy Silverton Grape Starter A while back I reached out to Mariana about a comment she had made regarding keeping a starter's microflora consistent with the use of white flour. That led to some back and forth DM's, and in the end, I am in the process of attempting to create a Nancy Silverton grape starter....	Interesting blog, Troy. I shall be following. Once made a starter with basil leaves and to say it bubbled up well is putting it mildly. It practically climbed out of the container. I wonder if when made and established as a viable sourdough starter if using all these methods makes them so different or are these methods...
Sourdough analysis Hi all, so I've been baking more sourdough, and am quite happy with it. It isn't sour at all, which I'm fine with. My questions are; why is my bread triangle in profile, instead of round or oval, and what causes huge air pockets like the ones in the photo?My recipe is 65% hydration, 9% protein whit...	First things first The first thing that jumps out at me without delving deeper is the flour you're using is not strong bread flour. Strong gluten would be 11 - 14% and will give you better results. As to that being the cause of the issue or just the by-and-by is another matter but just thought i'd point that out.
Old dough question Hello everyone!I have two different batches of old dough. They were batches of a pizza dough with 70% hydration and 00 flour, and a batch of pretzel dough. I let them proof overnight in the fridge, then got busy and didn't get them baked. Keeping them in the fridge, I put each into it's own plasti...	Try them They will probably make their intended product. Try them and see!Ford
Restoring a dying starter Are there some better tricks to revive a starter that was left unfed at room temperature for 2 days and now refuses to rise after feeding? It's a rye starter, usually fed 10-32-40.1) many people on internet recommend adding a pinch of commercial yeast to the starter for a boost. And they seem ...	Starter 1) I agree with you, spiking wild-yeast with commercial yeast is counter-productive. It will just set the reviving process back imo. Even so, in the immediate term mixing flour,water and commercial yeast is bound to produce a bubbly result which I guess some people mistake as having revived their starter. IM...
Sourdough starter - is it right yet? I was struggling to grow a proper sourdough starter for about a year and a half. When my bread got moldy it was always the same - the mold was fuzzy/hairy and it smelled like whitewash (the final white layer on plaster). Moldy bread baked from commercial (dry) yeast also had the sam...	it's bread.. Eat it, don't wrap it.Seriously - you can wait 12 hours before slicing it? I can barely wait 5 minutes if I'm being really good when I've baked a loaf for myself. And keeping it for a week? Nope. Gone in a few days. I keep my bread in a cloth bag. Goes stale after a few days, but then it goes into the toas...
Harsch fermentation crock I was wondering if anyone uses the smallest of these crocks (5L) for keeping their starter in?	Pretty expensive accomodations I would love to have one of those to make my small batch sauerkraut and kimchi to use the airlock feature. Starter doesn't really need an airlock so I don't think I'd use it for that. For my starter,I use a pint-sized, wide mouth canning jar. If you need to keep larger amounts, perhaps a ...
Common Starter Queries - My Unsolved Starter Mysteries Hi fellow bread lovers,After 8 months of dedicated research and trial & error, I feel it is finally time to jump on the fresh loaf forum and try and put a few remaining 'unsolved starter mysteries' to rest. I have essentially been going through the 'rites of passag...	Food for thought One can keep different starters for different recipes. Starters may also be fed different flours. One can also create pre-ferments or just add Starter which has been fed and is active. Many different ways! I think you should just find one that suits you. Or even flip between them. Personally I have one...
STARTER FLOAT TEST What does the float test have to do with the viability of the starter? I refresh my starter 1:3:3 for 12 hours then refrigerate overnight use in the morning and it does not float because most co2 has been expelled, but my breads come out wonderful.Thanks again to everyone for there contribution to ...	It's for CO2 levels, not for viability I know the float test from Chad Robertson's recipes but don't pay it too much attention. If you drop a spoonful of levain into water and it floats, that indicates it has lots of CO2 and is at a good stage for mixing with your dough. If it doesn't float it might be too early, OR th...
Troubleshooting list Hi everyone !My name is Boris and I am looking for a list of troubleshooting when baking a sourdough bread ( baguette for me ).Thank you !	Handbook I found that reading The Fresh Loaf's Handbook was very helpful in getting me started.
Some questions I'm very new to making sourdough bread but my last 2 bake days have been really great. I have a couple of questions. If I refrigerate my firm starter and leave it a week or 2 or more without using it or refresing it, will it become more sour the longer it is left? Is it better to make a bigger starter...	If you leave your firm If you leave your firm starter , or any starter for 2 weeks without feeding and smell it, it almost hurts your nose with the * sharp smell *It will be so hungry that you need to feed it about 2 times before baking , so the leavin unfed in the fridge won't help with the Sour taste.I feed my 100% w...
DENSE CRUMB Looking for advise regarding my CRUMB. My crumb is dense, kinda heavy. What could be causing that please? My formula process includes the mixing, autolyse, mixing, fermentation (5 hrs.) with stretch and fold each hour, dividing and panning, proofing till 1 1/2 X increase (usually about 90 minutes). This for...	Crumb density can vary Crumb density can vary depending on a few things:Fats: Does your formula include any fats/oil? Depending on how much, fats/oil will make the crumb tighterHydration: Generally, the wetter the dough, the more airy/open the crumb. What's the hydration % you're using?Bulk rise: How much does your dou...
Novice - Need Guidance with Bread Rise Issues Hey Folks,I have been baking regular bread (non levain) for a bit and I enjoy it but I have been wanting to get into sourdough baking. I have tried it in the past and I didn't fare well. By that I mean the entire process went pretty much by the book (Ken Forkish - Flour, Wa...	You don't explain what you You don't explain what you expected, what you got, and what the difference was... there is no cross section shot of your crumbalso white flour for a starter? if it's storebought it might be weak. You never explain your starter or how much it grows, what it looks like, or how you determine mat...
alternative to starters any one know of a cheats way to sourdough bread any other quick souring agents	Rumor has it that bakeries Rumor has it that bakeries wanting to fake sourdough use commercial yeast vs sourdough starter and add citric acid to their dough to artificially sour it......But you didn't hear it here.
Helpful sourdough tips from Brod and Taylor Brod and Taylor, makers of the folding proofer, have collected a concise group of tips on how to control the sourness of sourdough breads at this link. It is well organized and easy to understand. The material is from a class by King Arthur Flour featuring Debra Wink.Paul	Very helpful.Thanks for Very helpful.Thanks for sharing this, Paul.
How does one get to say 300g of mature starter from an active refrigerated starter I'd be grateful for a lesson about process:If I have an active starter in the fridge, i.e one that is bubbling away, has been fed recently and doubles in four to six hours and also floats, I would like to know how I get to 360g 'mature 1...	Thank you for clearing that up for me. I managed to forget the bit about a teaspoon or tablespoon of starter..an essential bit I might add.
And the winner - of the starter wake-up experiment - is ... I tried four methods for resuscitating a starter after a three-week dormancy period. No feeding and no peaking. This was definitely worthy of a serious third-grade science fair project.Here are the results. Who came out ahead? Who lost?Yes, I think of my start...	Cheers! Good to know
Starter- 25% Rise Hello All,I'm working on my first sourdough starter, using the formula in Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice. I'm 5 days in and I'm getting a 25% rise, a bubbly top, and a very delicious sourdough smell, but the formula calls for the starter to at least double. Is doubling the starter complet...	not familiar with this method Explain the method and your schedule
Are Dutch Ovens Magic? Yesterday I baked a sourdough loaf in my oven. The loaf was out in the open, just the loaf on a stone. Prior to baking, I sprayed the loaf with water. It came out all crust. The crust was way too thick and way too hard. There was no oven spring and as a result, the crumb was dense.Today, using th...	Home ovens vent steam, a DO Home ovens vent steam, a DO prevents the steam from escaping.
Problems with Field Blend#2 Well, Field Blend #2 is what is in the oven, but I am not sure the problems started with this loaf. I have had similar problems the last couple of bakes using my starter, first with another Field Blend #2, and then with an Overnight Blonde. What I think is happening is that my dough is ove...	Repeat without the yeast..... that would be my first variation. Your starter is obviously supercharged anyway so you need to slow things down.Cheers
What a difference Flour can make... .... I used the same flour brand for about 1 Year now, always got good results in Crust and Crumb, nice crusty crust and lovely crumb.The last month I got bad results, the crust always came out soft/is and the crumb had changed.I had not changed the forumla at all, used my standard S...	I had a dream the other night That Lucy and I were millers and the boss came in and said 'We are losing money and you might lose your jobs unless you come up with a way to cut costs or improve efficiency" After the boss left, Lucy looked at the floor and it was covered with flour. She said we should sweep it up. bag...
We 3 gmas rye tested Week 3E We 3 gmas continuted to Rye Recipe Test... Week 3 Salty Rye Rolls and Baltec Honey Rye Loaf... here are the pics.Barb's Rolls are the intro... here is her loaf... with raisins Rolls and Helen's loaf with walnuts My loaf seems a bit under-proofed... it really is a lot darker than it l...	Those rolls look yummy! Those rolls look yummy!
starter not rising Hi All - I'm new to all of this... I'm on my third starter attempt (with no success so far). This is day 7 and this is what it looks like a few hours after each feeding. On day 3 or 4 (cant remember), my starter stopped rising.It smells like sourdough, has bubbles but seems gluey and just has no lift...	float it! Have you given it a float test?
Overfermented? IMG_3951.jpeg Hi AllI did something different with my foccacia this time. I used the KA mixer with the dough hook on it for 5min before bulk fermentation (whereas I used to do nothing) , bulk for 18 hrs. Is this overfermented or is it because I used the mixer on it? the first photo is my regu...	Sorry to clarify, the first Sorry to clarify, the first photo of the square slice is my ideal. The second photo, is the crumb like that because of over fermentation or because i used a mechanical mixer .
My Starter is back to 100% hydration... ... and the reason is that it gives my bread a more sour taste that my family and I like.I feed him * Gordon * 1 x a day and he gives the BEST tasting bread.I did not quite get the same with the Stiff 50% hydration Starter, the sour was different not in the first bite but half a ...	How often do you bake? Do you How often do you bake? Do you bake daily?
Soft Sourdough Sandwich Loaf recipe suggestions? HiCan anyone suggest a soft sourdough sandwich loaf recipe? Brown or white, but nice and soft - a simple recipe easy to fit around a busy schedule.Suggestions appreciated. Many thanks	Well since sourdough is... ... flour, water and salt (unless you're making something like an olive or tomato loaf etc) you basically have the recipe.To make it nice an simple you can skip the bulk fermentation and go straight to final proofing and do it in a loaf tin.You don't get the full intense flavour but will be a...
Fed vs unfed starter Is there a general rule about using a starter? I recently made a sourdough bread recipe that called for "unfed" starter. Simole enough, but I have seen other recipes that don't specify fed or unfed. Unless otherwise stated do you normally use "fed" starter?	Normally, yes. I have used unfed starter in some breads, but mostly with added dry yeast. Generally, sourdough bread needs a fed starter.
Refrigerator storage - sealed or not Its embarrassing but I have lurked around here for quite a while and just got around to creating an account. Thanks to all for a huge amount of help as my bread baking skills have matured.I do have a real question for you today and search is my friend didn't quite get to the answer ...	I keep mine in an wide mouth I keep mine in an wide mouth ball jar.Mine is 100% hydration too and was created in May 2013, I had no problems at all with closing it airtight, never had I broken Glass or anything like that.When I keep my Starter on the counter * which I do in the winter month, I do just cover it loosely....
Sourdough starter with Peter Reinhart Dear all,I am very confusing about recipes for sourdough starter in Peter Reinhart books.In book named " The Bread Baker's Apprentice " he mentions the recipe for sourdough stater.In book named "Artisan Breads Every Day " he also mentions the recipe for sourdough stater.And I reali...	Use the latest one! Hi, Reinhart keeps improving his starter recipes, so use the latest one. Specifically, the recipe in TBBA was problematic for some. Debra Wink and other intrepid bakers decided to tackle this and developed a fool-proof method for making sourdough. Their method is science-backed, thanks to Debra's sc...
Sourdough Bread at high-altitude Hello,I am interested in learning sourdough bread baking. I have been reading a lot of books and I have made my own starter. Any good sourdough recipes or suggestions for high altitude sourdough baking, are greatly appreciated.Many thanks in advance.MaVen	Keep it simple I would recommend starting with a very basic recipe and just getting all the techniques just right by doing several bakes. Then branch out into the more elaborate recipes. I thought my first few attempts were quite reasonable, but even though I haven't changed the basic recipe that much since then, what ...
Fridge temperature during overnight retard Could someone suggest what the ideal temperature is in the fridge for an overnight sourdough retard please? I retard before baking for around 16 hours but the dough comes out really cold and has not risen much so I then put it in my Brod and Taylor proofer to finish the rise ...	It all depends what you are trying to do. At 36 F, my shaped SD dough has no problem proofing in the fridge to 85% -100% in 8-12 hours depending on what time of year it is and how much levain I use. At a colder 36-38 F the dough will do 2 things, take longer to proof which means more flavor and it becomes more sour ...
First Sourdough Starter Hello,I love baking and recently decided to start making my own bread, which has been great. I have not yet, however, tried my favorite type of bread which is sourdough. After doing a bit of research on wild yeast starters, I found a recipe for one using rye flour and unsweetened pineapple or or...	Good start Hi Jordan,Your starter will go through many stages and smells while it's still young and developing. Once it is older and more stable, you'll notice changes in the smell after each feeding, too, but they'll be more predictable. Mine usually smells pretty fruity and acidic right before I feed it.It is very un...
Testing limits and learning I wanted to test a Bosch Universal Plus that I have repaired so I put together a Vermont Sourdough - Rye test that consisted of over 13 lbs of dough. The mixer handled it but I will not do it again anytime soon. For one, with that much dough I never felt fully in control with the mixer. T...	I wonder if the learning ever ends.... It's always good to learn the limits of ones tools. I'm surprised that machine was able to mix that much dough at once, in spite of the problems you noted. I reckon there are four data points that are useful. The smallest and largest amounts of dough it will mix, and the upper ...
Timing starter refresh. Can I modify the amount of time it takes my starter to double? I would like a faster doubling so I can get started with the dough sooner than the two days of starter refreshing that it now takes me . It is a 30/30/30 all-white flour mix. When I take it out of the frig and rebuild it takes 8 to 1...	HI GregS,Yes, if you have an HI GregS,Yes, if you have an active starter, generally the more frequently you feed, the faster it will grow. Of course this is tempered by ambient temps and the liquidity of the starter (firmer/dryer starters will grow more slowly). So a frequently fed, liquid (more than 100% hydration sta...
Sourdough I am new to this forum and am excited. I have many questions. Starter: I used T85 flour for my starter and maintain it using a 1:1:1 ratio. Now, I have not been tracking the rises nor quantifying it. I have just been feeding the starter everyday at the same time for the past month. Starting out, how much shou...	Temperature of kitchen makes Temperature of kitchen makes a big difference for fermentation and proofing time.You can check power of starter by putting a mark or elastic band at the level when you feed it. Personally I use dark rye in a clear glass container and it obviously expands a lot... looks like a sponge.Your pr...
mix for sponge with sourdough ? Hi If you make a sponge for a sourdough starter what would the mix be for a total recipe flour weight of 16 ounces ? Also I have some confusion re terminology.... is a 'preferment' simply another word for a sourdough 'starter' ? What is the bulk ferment ? All the above related to sourdou...	There is indeed confusion Pre-ferment may be either sourdough (lactobacillus + yeast) or yeast (just yeast), while sponge is only yeast. Logically, a sponge is always a pre-ferment, while a pre-ferment may or may not be a sponge. A sourdough starter is a pre-ferment, but not a sponge. The historical reason for this ...
Is bulk fermentation really necessary? If, for example, I'm going to be retarding the shaped loaves in the fridge overnight in a banneton. The entire process would be:Measure out and feed starter to desired amount for use in recipe, let it do its thing for ~8h, then mix the rest of the ingredients. Do a few S&F's to ...	Clarify Not sure what it is you are asking here. The process you outlined is pretty standard, build preferment, mix dough, develop gluten, bulk ferment or retard and bake. All leavened breads need time to proof/ferment. Are you asking whether or not it needs to be done in the fridge?
Can you suggest a one-day recipe that uses SS AND dry active yeast? I'm making Ken Forkish's Overnight Country Blond right now using my sourdough starter, but it won't be ready till tomorrow and I'd like to serve warm bread tonight for dinner. The problem it's just about 12:30 pm now Pac time and I have to leave the h...	There's this one but the There's this one but the ratings aren't great. Might be good enough though - however it of course doesn't call for ss so I wonder if I could add some anyway? If so, is there a trick to how much or adding more or less flour if also using ss?http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/One-a-Da...
Still Baking! ....not posting (got very busy lately!) Anyway, managed to get this done today while working from home, and, it was a nice way to pull me away from my monitor for some short breaks!150g starter (100%)300g water450g flour (400g AP, 50g WW)10g saltFrom this: IMG_0113.JPG To this: IMG_0117.JPG ...	Very nice looking loaf, great Very nice looking loaf, great job! How long was the bake, and at what temp?
I'm sure it's been done before but ... ... if it has I'm having a bit of a hard time finding it. Has somebody ever posted a concise, easy to follow "smell guide" for starters? Something that explains, in terms that are easy to understand by somebody without much of a background in organic chemistry, what is happening w...	smell stages of sourdough starter Here's one thread:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/28754/does-sourdough-starter-always-smell-so-bad, but it's a bit scattered. Here's my take on sourdough starter smells: No aroma, just smells like raw dough: starter is probably too young to use. Solution: wait longer to let your start...
Bosch Compact Rips Sourdough and Kneads Air I am trying for the first time to make Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough with Increased Whole Grain (Bread flour 85%, Whole rye flour 15%, Water 65%, Salt 1.9%).I was trying to knead the dough after autolyse. The Bosch Compact was fitted with the dough hook and after mixing the do...	I have had a similar problem, I have had a similar problem, the dough goes to the outside of the bowl ( I had the opposite problem with the same recipe in the Universal - the dough got wrapped around the center column and didn't knead). Usually, temperature and hydration play a role. If the dough it too cold, it ten...
I had to adapt my baking... ... due to my Ostheo Arthritis which got really bad in my right wrist and some of the fingers.Kneading is not an option for me, at least right now, we see how the pills work and the wrist support, but I doubt that kneading is in my future. sighhhI have a Kentwood Chef Premier and use it for ...	No shame in mixing. I don't use a mixer for a few reasons:1. I don't like to take it out and put it on the counter to use it.2. See #1.3. See # 2.Finally, for some reasons, the breads I make only require stretching and folding and the pizza I make is such a small quantity that I never thought to take out the mixer.
starter help Hi all - I'm a newbie here and would love any words of advice. Last weekend I made my first sourdough starter...made it with brown rice flour (trying to keep it gluten free) and spring water (1/2 cup flour and 1/3 cup water). Fed it every 12 hours and things looked good. Not real bubbly but it was consiste...	Temp What temperature have you been keeping the starter at? What's the general weather like at the moment where you live? There's a good resource here about gluten free starters http://dontwastethecrumbs.com/2013/07/how-to-make-a-gluten-free-sourdough-starter/
Sourdough Yeast and Gout Hi,I recently started baking with fresh ground whole wheat flour that I grind myself and bakers active yeast. After my husbands gout flared badly in his ankle, research showed that bakers and brewers yeast are the worst for gout! I was thinking sourdough may be the answer but it also produces ...	sourdough Denise,Thanks for the comment. I am beginning to think that the extended rise/fermentation of the sourdough will make a difference. I read somewhere that most of the yeast is used up before baking due to the long rise times. Sadly for hubby, he is going to be the guinea pig! I just got some sourdough start...
Trying again after the salt fiasco Today I baked four pan loaves of Vermont Sourdough with whole wheat. This time I just mixed the levain, flours and water to they were well mixed and looked like mashed potatoes. After a one hour autolyse at 70F I added fine salt and kneaded for about ten minutes. I noticed more str...	Autolyse has no levain or salt in it. Just dough flour and water. If you put levain in.... it ia a ferment not an autolyse. Why are these loaves so pale? Is it the light? It's like they were under baked or at too low a temperature or both ? Think boldly baked where no baker has gone before - and get the levain ou...
Challenger Fermentation Mat I have always had success with Challenger products - especially their pan.Until now, I've proofed with the (old) Brod & Taylor box. That, too, has worked well - although the actual version I have seems to be obsolete.But now Challenger has their own Fermentation Mat.May I ask: has anyone tri...	Not a box! - to state the obvious, of course. But place a jar of anything other than a thin liquid on it and I guarantee the temperature at the top will not be the same as the bottom.It has the advantage of needing very little storage space, but a decent proofing box really needs to be an enclosure. I guess it's better...
Sourdough of my youth vs today's sourdough Hi everyone!I'm new to TFL and have been doing some reading -- great forum, wish I had days and days to devote to reading it all -- and a photographic memory for the definitions of all the abbreviations. But I digress...When I was a child, and right up through high school, my...	If one bakes enough Then no need to discard. You fed the starter twice a week so no chance there of your starter ever forming any liquid on top plus you kept it in the fridge the whole time. As far as texture goes it all depends on flour used, hydration and what temperature (starter in the fridge will be thicker). Last...
Why do I even freeze my sourdough starter when I go away? It takes me just as long to revive my starter as it would to build a new one. I ask myself why not create a new one. Still, I take the time to revive the one I froze and I'm happy when it perks up. More details on the last round and bread #57.	Dry not Freeze. I keep some dried starter in a plastic bag in my refrigerator. I probably do not need to refrigerate it, but I do.To dry your starter, just spread a thin layer of starter (mine is 100% hydration) on a sheet of parchment paper and let it dry at room temperature. This take a day or two. Then crumble th...
First sourdough - analysis please Hi all, I just made my first ever sourdough bread using a rye starter converted to white flour. It took a while to convert, but is now very active and happy. I just made a 20% buckwheat boule, the rest being French T65 flour. Total hydration was 60%. I used 200g of 100% hydration s...	Congrats on your first sourdough ! Loaf looks well shaped and scored. According to your numbers you used 50% starter in your recipe. I think most people would suggest that's far too much and that's why your loaf proofed so quickly. Many people would only use 10-20% starter but it depends how long you want the loaf t...
Desem Starter - When is it ripe? - How to use it? I'm trying to convert a regular sourdough starter into a desem starter. I was curious to know when is a desem starter ripe? Do you just wait until it is soft?Also how do you use it? Do you just make a sponge (stiff or liquid) as you would with other recipes, but usin...	Hi sournewb71, There a couple Hi sournewb71,There a couple of books available which describe various methods for starting and maintaining a desem style starter."The Bread Builders" - Dan Wing and Alan Scott (no recipes, though Alan Scott does run through a baking session and gives some rough measurements that you can s...
Nancy Silverton's sourdough starter with grapes didn't bubble I followed Nancy Silverton's sourdough starter with grapes. It sat on the counter in my semi warm kitchen for 6 days, I stirred it once daily and kept it covered with saran wrap.Yesterday was day 6 so I removed the grapes and added one cup each of bottled w...	Sorry to hear of your starter failure. Strictly speaking the grapes are wholly unnecessary to make the starter. All you need is the flour and the water, time and decent temperature. Simple works. If you want to speed things through then use pineapple or orange juice in place of the water for the first 2 days. This w...
I've never had this happen-please advise Today I'm making sourdough. Three batches. The last batch is Vermont Sourdough with whole wheat. I hand kneaded the dough about 25 or so minutes and let it autolyse. Then I added salt and kneaded about 5 more minutes. This was longer than I had kneaded similar batches with ...	Perhaps Perhaps you have too much water (too little flour). This is only a guess. I doubt I kneaded too much -- I agree, one cannot knead too much by hand. You can allow too much time for the flour to be in contact with the acid medium, but I doubt that that is the case here. I haven't a clue why you had dense sect...
Sourdough on my mind Some of the recent questions about sourdough have gotten me thinking about sourdough more than is usual. I have three starters/cultures in my refrigerator. Two use home milled flour and one uses unbleached commercial flour. All three make sourdough bread that is mild in taste and the resulting b...	Larger amount of starter Larger amount of starter maintained will not affect flavor. Using a different starter in the same recipe will lead to differences. Whether you'd consider them subtle or dramatic depends on your palate, how much starter is used in your formula, and how active your starter is.
Rewording a question - sourdough levain On page 152 of Bread J. Hamelman uses 4.8 ounces of bread flour with 1 oz of mature starter and 6 oz of water to build the levain. The rye flour for the recipe is mixed in after the levain has developed.What if instead of using the bread flour for the whole 4.8 ounces, I used th...	Ok The question makes perfect sense this time :-) There is some good info about preferments here: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/preferments.html Reading through that, it is clear that if you specifically use rye flour for the preferment, it can affect the end result. If there is a high content of rye in ...
Where is the problem ? Hi all,I'm need to the forum and have tried to search a lot of topics to find answers. And my problem is very simple, probably..Thanks for a great community, by the way.Yesterday i tried the tartine bread, country bread. I did'nt succeed. I had to throw it out, and the worst part is, that i don't...	Welcome Peter I'm unfamiliar with Chad's Tartine as I've never tried it. But from what you've described your levain (starter) seems to be the problem. 35% for overnight doesn't sound healthy. I dont know the method but are you building the levain from scratch or do you have an established starter the you feed? My start...
4 Day Starter - Another Experiment So curiosity is in the air this month with Abe and Mini Oven conducting experiments. My experiment was born out of Mini's efforts of simply covering flour with water which produced a viable starter in about 155hrs, 6-7 days. I surmised at the time that her starter would take time to...	newest starter I love Debra Wink's method and have used it to make new starter several times over the years. My newest starter was quadrupling or more by the 4th day. I did use newly purchased flour this time around and don't know if that made a difference. The temperature in the house might have been a little warmer d...
Proofing issues need help Last year I started baking bread with sourdough starter. I never did have a problem proofing, but now all I can produce are hockey pucks. 4 times in a row. I would really appreciate any guidance on how I can fix my problem My routine: Freshly feed starter the day before and water float te...	So you do a bulk fermentation So you do a bulk fermentation step (which you call proofing) after the kneading phase, but no shaping and proofing step after? ie patting down the initial rise, shaping, then proofing.Is that usual for you? I
Getting Desperate! I have posted this before and I will post it again. I need votes to be considered for a Grant to grow my bread business in Maine. I need to get out of the basement and into the shop! I got one vote off this site. Thanks Floydm. I may not get the grant even if I get the votes but as I said I won'...	Don't do Facebook If it wasn't for the fact that one has to vote on facebook, I would vote for you. I'm not into the social media deal.
HELP. Sourdough Starter Using Fresh Milled Flour I am brand new at home milling of wheat grains and I'm having bad experiences so far when it comes to Sourdough Baking.Can anybody help me with maintaining a basic Sourdough Starter Using Fresh Milled wheat berries?? Ever since I switched from store bought flour to fresh...	Question Are you saying that you are adding fresh milled wheat flour to your mature sourdough starter? Or are you starting fresh to make a new starter?Ford
Feeding storage starter Hi allA question on feeding a long term stored starter from fridge.I keep mine at 50% hydration and left in fridge for about 2 months. Usually I feed 1:6:3 when on counter, can I just do the same feed even after such a long storage?ThanksGhazi	Think so. Try it! Think so. Try it!

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