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A legal form of sex work, which you could include porn and stippers and bodywork and dominatrixes and stuff, but just not this actual, you know, actual sexual
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you know, penetration or conduct or whatever. So, you know, it's really hard to say and in Lacey and Larkin, they were old all week
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They found a paper in Phoenix in the 70s and then you know went on to own dozens including the village voice for a while they were
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you know, big and all weekly seen, they had always been, um, publishing for one, they'd always been publishing classified ads in the back of their, in the back.
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everything from a law against publishing abortion ads back in the 70s to laws against where they could distribute just all sorts of things they've been sort of suing the government
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against them in order to get them to do that thing. Right. And then use that thing to finalize the case that earlier had been lacking. Yeah.
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-the thing that, that i had been pointing out from way back when with craigslist and stuff is, we had all these examples of-
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-police have said that it's much, much harder for them to now track down traffickers. and so, there's something of a potentially open question-
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-to whether or not that means trafficking has actually gone down, which doesn't appear to be the case, or because now police just can't find it anymore.yeah, because-
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You know, they've done I think at least one and maybe several studies about the online ad market for adults in this and there's been no decrease there. Right. And we
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know both from other things and because it explicitly said so in these memos too that none of these other sites were actually as pro you know they weren't doing any more age verification.
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So I think it's safe to say that as many ads as got through for minors on sites like back page and craigslist are going to be getting through on these
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other less, you know, sort of mainstream sites. Right. And then we have from there, exactly like you said, you know, they're not, they're either not based in the US.
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working with the attorneys general because they were just going to screw them. They were meeting with them every month, they were meeting with the
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national circumstances where children, they were, they were just, you know, they were testifying in court cases, they were doing everything possible that when it did happen, that's
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I was just reading a thing today about how the Department of Justice in the FBI are now going after rough maps and arrows.
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and some of the sites that sort of other sites, especially that are oriented towards Asian massage parlors and they were just complaining. The U.S. Attorney was just complaining.
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that like, you know, but they're based on the United States, so they're not cooperating with us. And it's like, yeah, because you shut down the people, you know, you went out of your way to portray the people that were helping
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"... you stop trafficking, as the traffickers."right. yeah, yeah. no, no, i saw that too, and it is pretty incredible where it's like-
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... those sites are... they're accusing a certain guy of running them, and he's not based in the u.s., and the sites seem to be registered-
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... in all sorts of other countries, and they're complaining about how they won't cooperate at all. it's like, "well, yeah, right. you had the one who was cooperating, and you're trying to put him in jail."
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and exploited children working with attorneys general working with all of these people in order to stop ads for underage people from being posted and to then if they were
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to help bring people who explain them to justice.
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these seem to suggest that the company actually is a good actor.yes. and some of the exact sort of-
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for the industry, which is, you know, we heard then for politicians for years, like, oh, no, they were uniquely horrible in letting underage people post. And, you know, here's the prosecutor saying, no,
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Center for Missing Exploited Children said unlike any other site that has adult ads, they have been, they have been helpful and cooperative and they have been, you know,
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just gotten above and beyond on like no other sites had so they were actually the most useful at helping find missing people and you know bring bring explainers of
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-what's interesting too is that the senate report covers the same exact time period, effectively, as these memos do, right?yes, mostly. there is a little bit of subsequent stuff-
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in both the Senate report and the prosecution. But for the most part, it's the same time period and the same stuff, which is what earlier when I said, you know,
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The Senate report, they said they got all these documents, and they did get some new documents, but so much of what they talk about in the Senate report.
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because you see in both the Senate report and now the criminal prosecution against them the same, the same evidence. It's not like there is like a ton of
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members where they're like, well, okay, but actually we don't have this specific thing, this specific, you know, necessary element to make a money laundering charge, which is what the main charge against them.
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right now is and and then you saw in the intervening years things like what sheriff thought did that I mentioned earlier with pressure in the credit card
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against them on various things that like when Kamala Harris as a 20 general of California when they ended up subpoenaing some records and they got various evidence and it's like everything they
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did helped obtain this these elements that they needed for the charge but again not because it was like some wild new thing it was just like oh you will need this
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You know, because of the way certain, you know, evidentiary standards are are set up. It's like you'll need this very specific thing. And then you saw that, you know, politicians take action
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right. do you know why the government should not have handed those documents over? maybe i don't know enough about-
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I'm missing something. Do you do you know the details there? Yeah, because yeah, you have to, you know, hand over things that are that could be exculpatory these. Right.
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Okay, I don't know specifics people have I've talked to lawyers who said maybe they were who aren't specific to the don't know the specific to this case, but I said maybe they're arguing that it's a work problem
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We sort of falls in this exception because it wasn't used in a criminal trial or because it wasn't used in so I don't know it's something
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-you got your hands on the documents-yes.-as well. and along with our article, we published the documents. so, they're up on reason.com. anybody wants to look at them, you can-
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on that page, both then and now. And they also sort of lay out all the reasons why they shouldn't be prosecuted based on evidence that we
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Actually, this isn't good and we shouldn't use this back then so these I should I guess back up and say these memos were written by
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US attorneys in Washington state in 2012 and 2013 and apparently back then they had been sort of
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Thank you about building a case. The first memo was written when they had done a little bit of investigating in the back page, but weren't sure yet. And so they were starting the case and they were talking
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about what they, you know, what they were maybe expecting to find and what they would have to do if they wanted to already the problems they were running into with making a case by the child.
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And they were the subsequent memo in 2013. They had it said look through like over 100,000 pages of internal documents. They had grand jury subpoenas with six or seven
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7 people, they've interviewed dozens of people associated with the site employees, all sorts of things. And after that, that one is even more strong.
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to read you just one paragraph from that said at the outset of this investigation, it was anticipated that we would find evidence of candid discussions among
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they had a strong incentive to fight it. It goes into so much detail about all the things they were doing working with the National Center for
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... a generic seafood marketing campaign. and john-
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well, noah is a-
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... the next step, which doesn't mean it's going to happen, but it's-
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and i remember jean grosso was-
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... generic campaign. so i don't think-
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... that has changed. they've taken a different approach and it's been-
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... they're going to come up with these recommendations and who-
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... stuff like that. i think it's interesting just to-
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... note though, the very first campaign-
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... if you just follow the per capita consumption numbers, the-
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... is it produced the eat fish and seafood twice a week tagline-
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... in '86. you have a great graph on that story about when it launched and what happened the year after. so the efforts-
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... that took a little while and they had to hire an executive director, et cetera, cetera, but-
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shut down, one of the specific things that the court called out, was the fact that it had a search engine. and therefore, it was enabling the search to help f-
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find the infringing files. and that was like a-right.key part of the evidence. then, later on, when they went after another platform and-
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and that therefore, they were trying to hide the illegal activity so that, it was the same sort of thing. you were damned if you do damned if you don't,yeah.no matter what you-
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did, you were sort of, it was used as evidence against you. You see that in other ways in the back page case, too, where like in both the Senate report and in
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And you know, various prosecutions of them, including the current federal prosecution, they'll say, okay, well, they used credit cards, you had to use a credit card to put
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And now it says, oh, well, they were actually just trying to, you know, boost their profits off of this thing. And then when they got rid of the credit cards because
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illegality the way common sense points otherwise.and if i remember correctly, that was the same thing with craigslist, right? i mean the-oh, yeah, yeah.craigslist instituted fees on adult-
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ads because they didn't have these on adult ads-right.originally. on craigslist most of the ads are free. and because of the attorneys general pressuring them, they-
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instituted credit card charging to try and be able to track,right.and monitor those ads. and then the attorneys, the same attorneys general, spun around and said, oh-
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-how these documents got out there, before we talk about what's in them because that's an interesting story in its own right?sure, yeah.
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they were not supposed to have sent. And then
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The defense said we would like to be able to use these documents in our defense since they kind of as we will get to in a second are very very
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good for the defense and you know the process of cuters were like oh no no no you can't do that and they got a judge and the judge actually agreed the judge that judge is
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is actually since recuse himself, but that judge agreed and said, no, you're right, you can't use these because they were sent to you accidentally. And even though they are very exculpatory evidence, you can't use them.
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and they're sealed and they can't get out but wired published a couple paragraphs in the memo is in June and the prosecutor
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tried to have backpaged defendants sanctioned because they said that they must have shared it and they said they didn't and you know a ton of people have asked
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and if you really, really like it, which hopefully you do subscribe to our patreon feed, we have never had a single ad in the show. we've been doing it for many years-
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for years, going back to craigslist, we pointed out that if people were actually concerned about sex trafficking, these sites were actually kind of great for law enforcement. they made it much easier to actually fi-
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find and arrest anyone who is actually involved in sex trafficking, they cooperated with law enforcement and helped them find people. however, as the attacks on backpage ramped up, every-
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to pass fosta, a law that we've talked about a few times in the past. with all of the backers of the law insisting that it was necessary to take down backpage. and they-
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named backpage in particular quite a few times, of course, as we've detailed, also the feds actually shut down backpage and arrested its founders before fosta even became law though, only by a few-
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days. though, some of the supporters of fosta have now tried to rewrite history and pretend that fosta helped take the site down. elizabeth nolan brown who's an-
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associate editor at reason magazine has been covering the backpage story very in-depthly for quite some time. and recently got access to some fairly stunning doc-
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you found and what's happened with backpage. before we get to those documents, can we talk a little bit about the senate report? because i think that really shifted,
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some of the debate and plays into what you found in your article. so what was in that senate report and what did it say?yeah, the senate report, which-
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internal documents and they put out this or that's what they said at least you know that they had needed to do this to get all these internal documents and then they put out the
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that detailed in a lot of in a lot of detail how they were doing moderation at back page and how they filter content and things like that.
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Oh, well, they said if you can't post an ad if you're underage. So therefore, they were trying to encourage people to lie about their age and say that they weren't underage.
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And you know or you know they said you can't post an ad that says you know these certain words that implied bad things so therefore they were trying to coach people to use
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situations that i think are a little bit similar, and one of them that always amazed me and i thought never got enough attention when it happened was,
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when it came to the whole file sharing debate, and all the early programs that were used for file sharing. one of the reasons why napster got-
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no, this is really fascinating. the article's really fascinating.
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i'm excited to see the follow-up and certainly any other reporting you do on the subject. it's a really-
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