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... the absurdity of our current situation should really be a big red flashing neon warning-
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... light to people, particularly on the democrat side, to say like, "if you are really as unhappy with what your partisan opponents are doing-
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... you need to take a long, hard look at these proposals and how it empowers them to do more of what you detest."
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... crossing the aisles joining hand in hand on this issue, but not anything else.
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well, i think a lot of it is, both sides have decided that they hate big internet companies and-
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... that of course is that, if any company can survive whatever mess-
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... comes out of any of these, should they become law, it would be the big internet companies and it would be the smaller ones that would suffer.
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... and you're a trumpster and you don't like that he's-
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... potentially now getting slightly kicked off of the forum-
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... don't you notice that if trump is unhappy about the thing that you are unhappy-
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done. maybe he's got more up his sleeve, and i'm losing track because it's not just holly's bill and i'm... things are coming out constantly and remaining pending while other-
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... it's this big acronym soup that's kind of hanging out there.
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the kind of reference manual for different ideas that come up before congress-
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... and it's hard to say right now with the general election looming in-
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... ember, just how much time congress is actually going to have or want to devote to section 2-30 through-
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... through this session. but i think, we should definitely take a close look at everything that is in this report, because-
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it covers some ideas that have already come up in proposals as-
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... kathy was saying from senator holly and some other ideas that we've seen proposed here and there. so, as a-
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... the kind of summary or an articulation of different strategies or approaches to fundamentally changing-
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... the 2-30 framework. i think we will keep seeing these ideas, whether doj is-
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... hard at work right now. i think i saw a reference in politico today that they may actually have had a draft bill that they've shared with omb for the office-
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... office of management and budget for their kind of feedback and approval. so, we may well be seeing a specific bill, actually articulating in statutory language-
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... some of these ideas. we might be seeing that forthcoming, but-
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... see, good stuff from, from republicans, good stuff from democrats and terrible stuff-
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... exception, of course, that it'll just be the same. it's going to be-
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... for. i don't think they're understanding anything. like even when i was reading some of the-
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... to protect incipient platforms that were running into problems with liability. and by-
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... incipient platform they meant prodigy, which had a problem with-
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... being able to moderate the way stratton oakmont was threatening that it needed to be able to moderate. i mean, just some fundamental ideas are getting-
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you're not understanding what to fix if you don't understand what's broken or what's not necessarily broken.
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yeah. it's does feel like there is this general belief out there that everything bad on the internet is 230's fault and somehow changing 230 will fix that. and i think both-
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... of those assumptions are incorrect and that the problems are not-
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... because of 230 and changing 230 will not fix any of those problems and could make a lot of other problems as well.
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... trump executive order. it also does instruct the attorney general to come up with reference legislation-
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... or something along those lines. do we know if this is what they're going to use as the basis of the reference-
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... legislation? do we have any idea where this goes next?
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that has been something the doj has been very focused on for-
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... and it's very prominently included in this report from the doj.
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yeah it, and i mean, there's a very cynical take on all of this-
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... the ability of the doj to tie the 230 debate to the encryption debate is extremely frustrating because those two things should obviously have nothing to do with-
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... policy areas? and the reality is because it does actually combine into one-
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... online, how is your life free-
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... online? how do your overall bucket of constitutional liberties apply to your online behavior?
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... yes mixing up policy proposals that have heretofore existed in relatively separate silos-
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.... completely cynical motivations, but some of the way they're-
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... framing it is like as a discovery-
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... read this to declare war on the concept of-
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so within the doj proposal, and again-
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that's why i'm framing it more as dangerous, because it really does run headlong into a lot of significant problems where i don't think they're-
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... understanding what section 230 was for. i don't think they're understanding what the first amendment was-
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... ideas in this proposal include-
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... that seemed to follow the model that we saw in the sesta and fosta law that was passed a couple of years ago and that is currently being challenged by woodhull foundation, human rights watch, e-
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... ff internet archive, a couple of others-
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... as a violation of the first amendment. so these are ideas around-
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... creating a new standard of intermediaries who purposefully facilitate content that they knew or had reason to believe-
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... for content. it's not exactly clear what the scope of this content would be-
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... be. but it is a very new idea of bringing the sort of notice and take down regime that we currently have in the us under the digital millennium copyright act and applying some version of that-
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... to sort of all other types of content. one really-
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... in the list about making section 230 protections contingent on companies not providing end to end encryption for their users.
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i don't believe that they actually specify the word encryption-
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... before congress. a lot of kind of textual arguments of if it doesn't say encryption-
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... but it talks about wanting to create a total carve out from section 230 protections for actors who purposefully blind themselves and law enforcement to illicit material.
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you know, going to that question of what is driving doj's-
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... interest here. we have seen repeated focus from doj on this question of end to end-
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... encryption. what it means when service providers are not necessarily going to be able to see the content that their users are exchanging-
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creates all sorts of problems that i think it's worth recognizing, and that creates its own its own problems.
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well, let's move on from the holly bill to the justice department proposal and the justice department-
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... under attorney general bill-
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... barr. for some reason late last-
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... year suddenly decided that they were very interested in section 230-
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i still don't understand why, because section 230 very clearly-
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... exempts any federal crimes, anything that the doj would do from-
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... and then they have now released this-
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... proposal. and who wants to-
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you mean list all 13 major changes to section 230? [crosstalk 00:01:11]
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yeah well, i could just-
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... highlight a couple of the big issues that i see with what the doj is proposing. it really is kind of-
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... smorgasbord of lots of different ideas we've seen about changes to the 230 framework-
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... stitched together. and it's not even clear in the report itself how the doj anticipates all these different changes working together-
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at this point, i do not actually fully understand what the liability regime in the us would look like if all of what the doj is looking for got implemented. there's just-
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... a ton of moving pieces that don't necessarily... either may be redundant with each other or don't fit in very well. but some of the big-
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sort of nice from a policy standpoint that he's trying to minimize who this law would apply to-
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but this idea that he's gunning for large players that make a lot of money-
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there are different degrees of scrutiny for what their first amendment exercise looks like. so i think-
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what he wants and he's going to end up with less than what he-
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yeah. i think it's tricky and just to i-
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do most people recognize this, but just to go back to a point that emma was making earlier about-
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who haven't thought this through might not understand in terms of-
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nudity, but then what do you do when someone takes a picture of like-
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a nude statue or a piece of famous artwork that has nudity in it, is that allowed or-
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with facebook, if you had# mother's-
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for being taken down or not and it's easy-
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need to think and the deeper you dig into that, the trickier it becomes, which is why-
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this vast ever changing set of policies that continually have to be-
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adjusted because every case is different and the fact [patterns 00:09:31] are not as simple as everyone seems to think they are. and so-
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