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obviously pork is a very, i've never eaten pork before, so this is only my why i hear from people, but pork expands in your stomach or something
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so i'm thinking to myself that you've never once actually told me that you are happy doing this. you've told me a lot about your family and you've told me a lot about how you
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think religion is oppressive and you told me a lot about how you're secretly doing this stuff
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actually a decision to oppose particular things that his family believed in and things that he grew up in and a reaction to quite a bad childhood
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and want simplify it, but this is not a simple position. this is not a simple way to live your life. and if we
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recognize that, if we can recognize that complexity for abraham is facing, we should probably afford that for the case of not.
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i have been through quite a ride with my atheism as well. first recognizing that i am not alone in
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he is of is one of those guys that watched joker and thought that it was a documentary. his view of the world is just one, which is extreme
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extremely technocratic. it's one where he thinks that he's super smart and operates from four different planes to everyone else. he's someone who would say something, we live in a society and not
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ironically. so he put out a job ad for his special unit of advisors
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and he was looking for people who were weirdos and misfits. so this was a funny thing that everyone made fun of because dominic cummings is a
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weird guy, but his first hire was a guy called andrew sabisky, who from what i've seen is he calls
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one of the things that he had said to a industry newspaper called schools week was that eugenics is just, i think his
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but he decided to finish it anyway. his thing was something along the lines of eugenics just means putting young people, even children
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tanks and trad organizations, obviously, because of the anglicanism and stuff. you have a lot of people who are now defending him and saying-
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..."this is just the case of guys who spend so much time on the internet that their brain is basically glue, hiring other people who also spend an unreal amount of-
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... time on the internet." and-but also when you don't have that much at stake-yes.... you clearly are able to just deal in these abstract ideas.
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and richard spencer liked dawkins' tweet.
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i'm not surprised. i'm genuinely not surprised by it, and i think that even if someone brought that up to dawkins, he wouldn't think that that was-
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... a bad thing. he would just, again, say that the left are trying to cancel them and stuff.
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it's this constant need for victimization. and i think about this a lot, because on the one hand we want to call out these people for their shitty and very dangerous-
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... ideas, especially when they have positions of power awarded to them. on the other hand, it almost works in their favor because then they can just keep-
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... tion, it goes back to this idea that in order to have a secure identity for yourself, you always need to be in opposition to something, right? and-
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... i think in many ways that's why lots of these right-wing guys, especially the ones who have just found christianity-
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... find islam to be very intimidating. because for them, it's like, "oh, these are people who are very secure in their religious identity. they are so-
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... which is based on other people doing things we don't like. and it's based on an imagined idea of what we want the world to be,-
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... but we're not even quite sure if we want that, right?
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... being a trad millennial or someone who's "i don't believe in sex before marriage, dating should be this very christianized thing."
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i mean, probably. i'm not surprised. but i know that when the minor leaks came out, there were lots of people who used to thirst for-
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... lauren southern because they were like, "here's this trad, white girl who isn't unattractive and says all the things-
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... that we want to hear and says that men are the real victims." all of a sudden to be like, "oh, this girl was a stacy, this girl-
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... project on the entire west, and that they took over the whole western political systems in order to do, they're still really-
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... insecure about that, right? they're still really insecure about how strong that actually is. so the only thing that they can turn to is continual vic-
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... 117% increase in followers-
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.. ex-muslim accounts that i used to think weren't such bad people, that i was friendly with at some point, then they became these horrific-
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i think there's a lot of these, again, it kind of speaks to this thing about everyone wants belonging. and i don't know whether we spoke about this before, or whether i spoke about this with someone else, but-
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... often these people who are very ardent ex-muslims and people who are very well known on the scene-
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... a whole network of people reinforcing their ideas or telling them that they were right or that they were secure in their identity. now, i remember this because i went to a religious school-
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... and the experience of going to the madrassa was always about reaffirmation, right? the idea that if you are told something enough times then it becomes-
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... i won't name, but she was a presenter on the islam channel for a long time. the islam channel being the most-
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... different ex-muslim conferences and is one of the more notable faces on the ex-muslim scene. and i-
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... wouldn't necessarily have said that is allied with dodgy people, but has definitely taken their points and opinions seriously to the point of re-tweeting them or making whole-
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... videos about them, et cetera. and i see similar patterns in a way of, even if you move from one place to another, that kind of sense of affirmation and-
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... and that sense of needing to belong, and that sense of knowing that the decision that you made to abandon this identity that had formed most-
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... of your youth was the correct one to make. that requires a network of people to keep reinforcing those things and one of the theories of my book is-
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... that the internet has become less of a place of discussion, more of a place of affirmation. it's more of the idea that you can find people who are like you.
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... you end up in this network where it's really hard to think that you're wrong or really reconsider how you live your life until something really goes wrong or-
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... something that has significant consequence happens. for the most part, you are willing to kind of overlook some of the darker elements of your community if it-
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... comes from this place of this feeling of needing to belong somewhere, this feeling of needing to have a community. because with islam in particular, where it's so community-orientated-
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... i wasn't oppressed enough in saudi arabia, that's why i'm not right wing enough. b, i'm not even really an ex-muslim because my parents weren't-
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... they'll have a mistrust of you if you grew up in a liberal place or if you take liberal positions on things. but they'll really like you if you take a stance that-
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so now, i come into this atheist scene, or the ex-muslim scene even, and i'm feeling the same thing. too left, not a-
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... has worn a burka. so much to their advantage when needed and when it fits the narrative, it's like, "oh, yes. i know. amazing! poor, oppressed-
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... woman was having to deal with morality police in saudi arabia." now, all of a sudden, because i'm not focused on the things they want me to focus on-
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... the demands of orthodoxy and the kind of place where adherence to rituals signifies-
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... your loyalty, you're now in a new place where it's like, "oh, i've got to learn all these new signifiers and have to learn all these new types of languages-"
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... whenever i spoke to very religious young people, i would meet up with them and i would be very surprised about how they looked because i would think that, "oh, when i-
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... jeans and a tight t-shirt and stuff like that. and you look more just like a general guy in his twenties or something like that-
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... than this really about muslim. and they'll often say that "my social media feed is-
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... people of certain things or to not have people question how religious they are and everything. and i think with ex-muslim spaces, but other spaces-
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... right type of people. i do this as a journalist all the time. when i'm trying to understand a community that i don't understand it's always about-
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so you're really looking at how this structured community works. so you figure out your way in-
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... to figure out what way can they accept you. now, obviously in the context of being a journalist, you have to say, "well, i'm here because i intend to-
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... write right about you." or "i'm intending to do a radio piece about you," or something. but when you are someone who's just looking for a community to belong to, you-
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... can pick up things really fast. you can pick up what type of stuff do they like, what types of things are they saying? i don't even have to-
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... understand. and in left-wing spaces, this happens, too. so many people who retweet stuff about neoliberalism and-
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... even a primer to marx or anything. but at the same time, they don't need to. because it's not about marx, it's not about the text, it's not about the-
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... sealed in my mind. i just never, ever had the desire to eat pork and i'd always say, "no, no, i don't eat pepperoni," or whatever at a social gathering. and then-
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... one day i was like, "whatever, i'll just try it." it wasn't really the angry, "this is my breaking free moment," but-
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... press, and that's all down to the fact that the hearst have a very good media team, hearst, being my publishers. i didn't really get a lot-
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... for them, they were fine with me talking about sexuality inside the masjid. they were very happy about me... they had very-
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... happy to let me talk about drugs and violence and all that stuff. i think there were more mustards who were very, you may have been hesitant to doing that, which-
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... shame because i think ... i tried really hard to-
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we have lots of young people who come and we kind of preach a message that it's much truer to the scriptures than any sort of liberal platform.
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and we should be interested in what they do because the internet and phones and stuff are not an abstract thing. right? they inform the-
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so the instance is a way of looking at what kind of preferences do they have? what kind of marriage are they looking for? are they reading jordan peterson and-
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... communities about what technology was doing, and then whenever something would go wrong or whenever they would ask themselves or why aren't young people coming-
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... into our [inaudible 00:06:19] and everything. they're not really asking themselves these questions. so i was trying to do that in the hope of sparking a conversation. and i don't know, i mean-
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maybe in some places that conversation is happening and they're having ... i think there were a couple of mustards who do book clubs and my book was chosen for a couple of-
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i just kind of wish i did more of those, i had more of those opportunities to speak to muslims when the book was coming out. i think it was-
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it was good to talk to non-secular white people who were just interested in what was going on. i think that was an important thing to do, and i really appreciate that they-
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okay. so there were free fix. there was one there's one person who gave my book two stars.
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there were a couple on twitter that were kind of, they hadn't read the book, but they were kind of bemused by the premise of this is a book about-
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... muslim twitter, and the whole idea about, oh, you're writing about muslim twitter to white people and the white audience. and basically the whole kind of leveraging that this is orientalism.
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... works in white media and is trying to explain brown people to white people, which i don't know. i didn't really engage with that just because i didn't necessarily think-
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i think it was also an example of where just the whole identity politics thing, if it is that ... if that's the right term to use. this is really limiting.
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it's kind of like, okay, well, are you just making the case that no one should read books that we write or are you making the alternative case that brown people should read more books, which-
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and i said to my publishers i want to these books to go out to mosques-
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... know them because i think that would be important. and i'd love to have conversations with them and advance my research in that. so it wasn't that we didn't try to do that-
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... or as much as many podcasts or many tv things as i could. and it just-
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... minds that are, have i sold parts of my community down the river? have i orientalized them? have i treated-
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... shamelessness in a mixed company.
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i mean, that to me is just-
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one of the questions that i was thinking about while i was writing about was what happens in virtual reality situations? what if you are dude.
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i think are a little bit ahead of its time at the moment, but definitely something that is not entirely inconceivable. there aren't even kind of facebook groups, which are for muslim-
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... men only or, you have the muslim men online who kind of go around telling women to change their twitter abi because-
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... they shouldn't be showing their hair, or that they might be misleading brothers and stuff like that. they call them-
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and i thought that it was a little bit kind of pushing it a bit too much. i thought it was just a little bit quirky for the sake of it. so i didn't kind of like-
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so i was like, okay, i've got this thing that's been sitting in my drafts for a long time and i didn't know whether there's something to it.
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and i told this story to our writers room, and they were all just really amazed by it. and i was like, i didn't really think it's that amazing. also because i feel like it's such a-
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