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The paucity of this line of argument is that it is provably false. Texas state officials COULD and DID investigate child abuse charges. They COULD and DID apprehend Koresh peaceably. The COULD and DID impound his weapons for the duration. And Koresh was NOT CONVICTED. Note that child abuse and similar accusations are STATE matters, not federal. The state COULD and DID handle them properly and peaceably, and furthermore violating no one's constitutional rights in the process. So maybe the best way for BATF/FBI to save people is to mind their own fucking business. --
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Has this video been made public? The FBI spokesman also said they first knew of the fire when black smoke started pouring out, but later said that *three* different FBI agents saw B-D members starting the fires. Also the FBI claims to have listening devices (bugs) in the compound. Will they make public the tapes of what the B-D said? Well sealing the initial search warrent, keeping the media miles away, not letting the B-D talk to the public, making contradictory statements, not releasing the vidio & tapes are not steps to ensure public confidence in their actions.
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Does anyone know where I can access an online copy of the proposed "jobs" or "stimulus" legislation? Please E-mail me directly and if anyone else is interested, I can post this information. Thanks, Mike Brooks NOTE: My E-mail address in the news header is NOT correct. My correct address is:
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Attention please! According to the rules of usenet flame wars, once a discussion degenerates to the point where Hitler is mentioned, that flame war may be declared ended. I would like to take this opportunity to do that now. Clearly further discussion is not useful with the current set of facts, and the current name calling and invocation of Hitler's name is not productive even by the standards of usenet talk groups. If you must continue, please don't discuss this in misc.legal. It's not about the law. If you would like to discuss the law as it applies to the Waco incident, please ask questions of the form: "if the FBI started the fire accidentally, who would be legally responsible for the deaths". Note that followups are set not to include misc.legal.
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"Freed om of Religion" has absolutely nothing to do with building a small arsenal and grooming 10-year old children to be your wife. "I'll come out as soon as I finish my manuscript on the Seven Seals." Oh, OK, David. I agree that Koresh was as much of a victim as a perpetrator; this because he grew up inside the cult, and engaged in a power struggle where his supporters helped inflate his ego. That doesn't change the fact that he was a loose fucking cannon with a shitload of serious weapons. Or that he was banging thirteen year olds and twisting their impressionable little minds. This was no MOVE fuck-up. A helicoptor was thermal-imaging the compound that afternoon and detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously. There were no CS CANISTERS... a specially modified Abrams was pupming the stuff in. No chance of starting a fire there. Kerosene lamps? Maybe one, but not three fires. No way. Koresh wasn't just talking out of his ass. I expected this to happen. Maybe they WANTED it to look like murder. He had 50+ days. I think this was coming the whole time. He didn't even put the children in the buried bus or the underground bunker during the CS seige. He put them up into the tower to die. Fuck all of you "Big Brother" paranoid freaks. The only good thing to come of any of this is that there will be one less group of crazoids to attract some of the more rootless members of our society.
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Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages). (Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people) p. 178 (first paragraph) "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the existence, although they had been unable to find them." Serdar Argic
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T.S.Reddy writes While the people here may be claim to be Muslim, the actions reported here, if they actually happened, are 180 degrees opposite from what Islam stands for, and I, for one, condemn them. --
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Some of the survivors have been "interviewed" on TV as they were going to or returning from court. They basically said, no way was there any kind of suicide pact or attempt.
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If any reliance was put on women's "mothering instinct" in an official explanation of a govt. action during a Republican administration, would it generate so few complaints? (as opposed to complaints about the action itself) -- "Spending programs are now 'investments,' taxes are 'contributions,' and these are the same people who say _I_ need a dictionary?" - Dan Quayle 2/19/93
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+>Can people please stop the 'I think/know the BATF/FBI are completely +>responsible but they'll cover it up so that the investigation will +>show that Koresch is responsible' bs. In an investigation of this +>size with the feds, state, and civilians involved in the +>investigation it would be practially impossible to cover up. The place has burned to the ground. The FBI and company have the whole area cordoned off and have already arrested reporters for being at the site and taking pictures. All your going to get in terms of a story is what the FBI, ATF and the Texas Rangers decide to release. +>And with Republicans like Arlen Spector calling for investigations, +>this isn't going to be handled with kid gloves. When the Philadephia cops dropped their bomb on MOVE and managed to burn down an entire neighborhood many people said the same thing. Dead men and rubble tell no tales that the police dont want them to tell.
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Too many MDs on the list and not enough RNs in my opinion. Doug
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I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history and I am just asking questions.) I don't think they would have. After all the U.S. was one of the countries that turned away Jewish refugees when there was still time to get them out. (Considered and rejected at the Cabinet level then..) ... Under what conditions should US interfere in foregin countries, is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious accusations of religious bigotry and such. As I understand it, International law provides the right of any country to intervene to prevent genocide. I think once the World Court has ruled that genocide is being committed... If a Human Rights Czar is appointed at the U.N., we could have international monitors recording events and responses of local officials and develop an objective basis. This could be backed by adjudication at the International Court of Justice and enforcement through a Rapid Deployment Force under the U.N. Secretary General's command. I would like to see the U.N. directly impose ICJ rulings whenever feasible (without the possibility of vetos at the UN Security Council.. much as the President can't veto a U.S. Supreme Court ruling). The U.S. is now supporting the effort to appoint the HR Czar -- the third world opposition is led by three countries, China, Iran and Pakistan (What company is Pakistan keeping!). The U.S. is also reconsidering its opposition to the U.N. force initially envisaged in the Charter (although under the control of the Security Council). The UN SC is quite a flawed body. Rogue governments like the PRC have even threatened their veto in the last few months to block the move to place U.N. troops in Bosnia under Chapter 7 instead of 11 (if I have the numbers straight) where they could have moved from being a monitoring to an enforcement force without requiring further SC action. (The PRC even continues to threaten using its veto on U.N. action despite the ICJ ruling. The current set-up requires the SC to enforce ICJ rulings..). Peace,
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From article <1qvampINNmhf@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, by stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU: I believe that this is not contradictory on the basis that the quality of media reporting varies greatly based on the subject at hand. The media has proven itself very accurate is the areas of presenting raw, undisputed data. One good example would be the weather page in which high and low temperatures of the previous day for a large number of locations are posting. There is little evidence to show that they are in error. The American media has failed us in its analysis of complex events, however. I'm sure that we can come up with many news stories that have left us angry because so many facts have been ommitted. Cases that come to mind are the invasion of Panama, the war with Iraq, the disaster in Waco, the issues surrounding the acceptance of gays into the military, the war on drugs, and many others. The story that you bring to light was regarding the new sex survey. While I'm sure that due to lazyness some of the data was ommitted from the article, I would venture to guess that the data that was presented did not deviate from the survey. I do, however, think that it would be folly to have blind faith in a single newswriter's analysis of this data. In this particular case, there was little analysis, and the reader was left to draw his/her own convictions. Many netters, Mr. Cramer included, often forget that the American media are merely a number of businesses, who's purpose in life is to make money for their owners and stockholders. Revenues come largely from advertisers who merely want maximum useful exposure per dollar. The media is like fast food; the quality of the food (or of the reporting) will improve only if the customers demand as such. Otherwise, it is business as usual.
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What say you and Nick go somewhere else with this shool yard crap.
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Look, I don't want to bore everybody here with the physics of woodstoves, but they're not anything like your Caloric gas range. It takes about three hours for a woodstove to get hot enough to cook on, and afterwards you can't just "shut it off" -- it will contain hot embers for over 24 hours even after you choke it COMPLETELY. So it ain't exactly "light up the stove and cook me a batch of them pancakes, Aunt J..." If you use a woodstove for cooking, or even for heating your house at night, you will have it lit to SOME extent all the time. Trust me on this one, I speak from experience. --
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Elias Davidsson writes... ED> The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in ED> numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those ED> who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the ED> source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be. It is your responsibility for posting quotes in context. Your phony 'research center' is the source of the most unscholarly, out-of-context, agenda-ridden, and sophmoric propaganda that I have ever seen. Don't believe me, folks? Let's take a little stroll through a few of Elias Davidsson's contributions to our understanding of the middle east. ED> Quotations from Zionist leaders ED> 1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians" ED> (Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday ED> Times, 15 June 1969) And what do suggest that she meant by this? Do you think she meant that the Palestinians don't exist? Or does it actually mean that the people who self-identify as 'Palestinians,' did not appear to be a distinct ethnic group in the eyes of Golda Meir? ED> 2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist ED> dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. ED> Palestine proper has already its inhabitants." ED> (Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920, ED> p.88) When this was written, seventy three years ago, the people of the region were not all Jews. They are not all Jews now. No Jew but the most rabid bigot has ever called for an Israel to be ONLY for Jews. That was true then. It is true now. ED> "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." ED> (Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to ED> the Knesset, ED> quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New ED> Statesman, 25 June 1982) Since you inserted the words 'The Palestinians are' we cannot know what Begin was talking about. For someone who wants to embellish his own importance with an absurd pseudo-organizational name like the 'Center for Policy Research,' you are not a very honest person. ED> "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] ED> and the removal of the poor must be carried out ED> discreetly and circumspectly". ED> (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, ED> 1960, I., p.88) Herzl died eighty nine years ago. Are you suggesting that he has stated what is Israel's policy today? Have you ever seen Israel even entertain a policy to exclude non-Jews, let alone actually try to remove non-Jews from Israel? If you actually believe that this quote has anything to do with Israel's non- Jewish citizenry today, you are an idiot. But if you realize that Israel has no intention of removing non-Jewish Israelis, then you are nothing but a common liar. This one time I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are stupid. ED> "We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the ED> Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment ED> for it in the transit countries, while denying it any ED> employment in our own country" ED> (Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, ED> I, p.88) Once again you quote a man gone for almost a century. You do so within the context of modern day Israel. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. How does this fact define the United States today? ED> "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" ED> (David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben ED> Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, ED> 1985, p. 89) Did he say 'Jews,' or did you add this? This was also a statement from ten years before Israel became a state. It has no bearing on Israel. ED> "We must do everything to ensure they [the ED> Palestinian refugees] never do return" ED> (David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in ED> Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, ED> Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157) YOU added the words 'the Palestinian refugees.' And by doing so, you are misleading people into believing that Ben Gurion, who was expressing his hope that people who fled their lands, at the encouragement of people such as KING ABDULLAH, and the MUFTI OF JERUSALEM, was gloating over people abandoning their homes. What he was refering to were the Arabs with whom Jews were at war. ED> "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only ED> a few islands of Arab settlement" ED> (Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's ED> Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, ED> 1970, p.249) At the time of the rebirth of Israel this was certainly true, especially when compared to what Israel has accomplished in a few short decades. ED> "All this story about the danger of extermination [of ED> Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of ED> new Arab territories" ED> (Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al ED> Hamishmar, 14 April 1972) Since Israel has not annexed even one millimeter of territory in more twenty six years, this quote is irrelevant. ED> "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can ED> disqualify terrorism as a means of combat" ED> (Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the ED> LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily ED> Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987 Again, you are quoting a man who was fighting for what he had been promised from a time as ancient as biblical, to the time of the Balfour Declaration, just a few short years back. And what was thought of and described as terrorism by Jews didn't include slaughtering Olympic athletes, brutally murdering the innocent, attacking school buses, and murdering another human being for the sole reason that he or she is an Arab. ED> "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab ED> workers is a cancer in our body" ED> (A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 ED> December 1974) There were serious concerns about a work force that consisted of people from OUTSIDE Israel. It is a wise to be concerned. A work force consisting of foreigners is not a good situation for a country. ED> "There can be only one national home in Palestine, ED> and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership ED> between Jews and Arabs" ED> (Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist ED> Federation of Great Britain, 1931, ED> in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, ED> Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135) This also has no meaning for a country formed seventeen years after this statement was made. Obviously times change. This is NOT what Israel is about today. I believe the peace talks make this quote irrelevant. ED> "There is not a single Jewish village in this country ED> that has not been built on the site of an Arab village" ED> (Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...) This is completely false. ED> "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 ED> Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have ED> been prepared" ED> (Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military ED> intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980) Expelled from where? Israel? The occupied territories? New Jersey? Is there any way we can read this and get an idea as to what on earth he was talking about. Obviously not. ED> "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the ED> rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization ED> as opposed to barbarism." ED> (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p. ED> 29) Interesting notion. Considering that this was written nearly a century ago, it is quite visionary. ED> "I deeply believe in launching preventive war ED> against the Arab States without further hesitation. By ED> doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the ED> annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion ED> of our territory" ED> (Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October ED> 1955) This was said nearly forty years ago. Begin is dead. And it should be obvious to anybody that if Israel was expansionist, it would have ANNEXED the occupied territories right after it captured them. Israel would not be negotiating to get rid of them. ED> "During the last 100 years our people have been in a ED> process of building up the country and the nation, of ED> expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional ED> settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no ED> Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that ED> we are near the end of the road." ED> (Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968) He's dead, too. And since Israel has not annexed ANY land at all since 1967, you are once again wasting bandwidth with all of these misleading quotes. They are so out of sync with the reality of Israel, that you do nothing but make yourself look like a fanatic desperate to sway people, by misleading them. ED> "Let us not today fling accusations at the [Palestinian ED> Arab] murderers. Who are we that we should argue ED> against their hatred ? For eight years now they sit in ED> their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their very eyes, ED> we turn into our homestead the land and the villages in ED> which they and their forefathers have lived. We are a ED> generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and ED> the cannon we cannot plant a tree and build a home. Let ED> us not shrink back when we see the hatred fermenting ED> and filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, ED> who sit all around us. Let us not avert our gaze, so that ED> our hand shall not slip. This is the fate of our generation, ED> the choice of our life - to be prepared and armed, strong ED> and tough - or otherwise, the sword will slip from our ED> first, and our life will be snuffed out." ED> (Moshe Dayan, eulogy of Roy Rutenberg at Kibbutz Nahal ED> Oz, 1956, quoted in Uri Avneri, Israel without Zionists, Collier Books, Macmillan, New York, 1971, p.154) Interesting quote. It's true that we should never lose sight of the plight of these people. We should also recognize that this quote preceded the disgusting wave of Arab terrorism and violence directed at innocent people, that began in 1972 with the massacre of the Israeli athletes in Munich, and continues to this day.
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No, it appears he didn't. Well, I think he's on to something here. I mean the post he responded to (not) did pretty much speak for itself.
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Oh, do please try not to be ludicrous. SO=Significant Other, a term I employed to avoid the awkward construction "girlfriend or wife". A "deviant" is someone who does not fit an "accepted norm." By that definition, I would certainly be a deviant, as bisexuality is not an accepted norm in American society so far. This term, of course, really has no negative aspects inherent in its denotation. I presume you intended it as a term of abuse. It's a great pity you feel such tactics to be necessary, but hardly surprising since you have no factual basis for your absurd beliefs. May I attempt to emulate your style of discourse with a term of abuse? Ahem...You addle-pated jellyfish! The post to which I responded was a highly amusing one in which you belittled homosexuals for having no political clout. I would be further amused if you would explain to me why having no political clout and constituting a political minority are different. And yet you call them "girls!" The feminists would be up in arms. Cough, cough. Well, well, you certainly are a fine, upstanding fellow, you are, sir. And like many "fine, upstanding fellows," you have the reading comprehension of a dyslexic anteater. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in pointing out that females constitute a political minority in this country when last I checked, and that your obvious lack of respect for these minorities equates to a lack of respect for women. That is, of course, a conceptual stretch of logic, but given your slow uptake as de monstrated so far, I figure we should start simple and work up. Don't worry, you'll get it ! This is very true, this bit about nature asserting itself. Homosexuality has always been a part of human society, and always will be, for that is the natural order. If you're naive enough to believe otherwise, go right ahead; we'll try not to snicker too loudly behind your back. "Inevitable." Chortle. Anyone would think you had some idea what you were talking about. I haven't seen fact one from you, and until I do you can just dispense with the bullshit, and tell us what we already know, that you're a clueless little slime mold with no concept of reality beyond The Donna Reed Show. Live a little, and then come back and tell us all about the "natural order of things." You're in a bubble, and it's really going to rock your world when you come out. "Foolish and misguided." Oh, this is too much. So which religious figure do YOU believe you are? And how do you know so much about the nature of man? You're almost too amusing to be worth the effort of crushing your pealike brain. Gee, you sound awfully sure of yourself. "Methinks the bigot doth protest too much." Admit it: you're scared shitless that what you've been spoonfed all your sorry little life was wrong, and you're trying to escape that fear by a blind faith that you know, deep down, is based in nothing, nothing at all. Go ahead, clutch your unfounded declaratives to your empty breast; ignore the myriad of societies that have accepted homosexuality as equally valid or even mystical. Ignore the solid, inescapable fact t hat we've existed as long as humans have. Fear us. Go ahead. Laugh at us if it makes you feel better. We both know you're just whistling in the dark. There's one group that's stamped out whenever it appears, in any form, and that's the group of boneheads who fancy themselves morally superior. You're in that group, and you're slowly and steadily being stamped out. Preach while you can, little man...it won't be long. That's the first truth you've told so far. I don't hate hets, sir. I'm bisexual, and I embrace man- and womankind alike. I have nothing against those who don't understand my love. But you deny its potency and validity. You would crush us all, human beings to a one, in your imagined divinity. It's fools like you that stir my ire...idiots with the small minds, who can't think for themselves, who know nothing about how the real world operates, and who hate because they are told what to do and do it like sheep, who hate everyone who refuses to be a sheep. You're not part of the norm. You're part of a minority--YES, a minority!--with supreme, o'erweening arrogance. Your hubris will topple, because it always has, because those with intelligence know it to be a clown's costume. Wow, that was pretentious! I sometimes wonder why I waste my talents on zeroes like you. I really have no interest in continuing this effortless discussion; after all, this is for me the proverbial battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Come back with some swords--i.e. facts--and we shall do battle. Till then, begone from my sight. Drewcifer
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This is where Freeman's love of accuracy becomes really ridiculous. [his point was that it is possible under certain circumstances for many people to carry concealed in Illinois] I did read the law before I commented on it. Judging from replies I received about my "Semantics on t.p.g" post many (if not most) people here on t.p.g assume that when CCW laws are asked about the person is asking about the possibility of an ordinary citizen getting one. It would also follow that said person would get the CCW to carry on his/her person away from their home and/or business. Maybe Freeman did prove his point but his point is not relevant. The thing that most people seem to care about when they ask questions about carrying a concealed weapon is whether or not they can carry it concealed on their person when they are out on the street somewhere. I'm sure that not many people are concerned with whether or not they can carry concealed at home. Speaking as someone who lives in Illinois (the only place where the above quoted law is relevant :-)) I know that it is legal to own a handgun here (I am not taking into account city ordinances). I could care less about whether or not I can carry concealed at home. I only care about the fact that I can't carry concealed in the place where it really counts- out on the street. Freeman loves to be accurate and I can understand that (especially not) but he seems to be forgetting that accurate facts don't always replace common sense. I am not going to followup to this thread anymore because I believe that it is useless to argue these points anymore. The only thing that is happening now is that Freeman and I are "running around in circles" trying to prove each other wrong and I do not have the time to be playing games anymore. Of course now Freeman will attack me about my use of common sense in some of my earlier posts but what can I do. My only advice for Freeman - quit being so picky about accuracy sometimes and use your common sense; it really does work some- times.
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Lord, I hope you don't Hoover was a pro! He was monstrous.
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Well over 100,000 in Lebanon alone. 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 in the Iran/Iraq conflict, even if Iranians aren't Arabs, strictly speaking. (They seem to hate the Zionists at least as much as anyone else in the neighborhood. Is there some correlation perhaps between hating Israel and killing off your own people?)
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Actually, the record of the Allies activities, in the face of incontrovertible evidence as to what the Nazis (may they rot in hell) were doing, clearly points to the conclusion that they would have done nothing. The railways to the camps were not bombed, despite the ease of doing so. The US, the "place of refuge" allowed in a bare pittance of Jews from Europe, primarily for public relations, so that the government could say it was "doing something". Many ships with refugees were turned away from US shores; some found refuge in Cuba or South America, many others sunk or had to return to Europe (with predictable consequences). The hope today is that we have collectively learned a lesson, and are less complacent to ignore other countries' "internal affairs". The sad reality is that this does not seem to be the case.
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Mark Ira Kaufman writes Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial. And Israel was supposed to uphold "Western values", eh? Check your facts before bashing Islam again. While there may be Muslim anti-semites, this is no way a tenet of the religion. Saying anti-semitism is "basic" to Islam is implicating the entire Muslim world, based on a selective sampling of a few people, and it flies in the face of what Islam teaches. Peace. --
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I'm putting together a list of the civil rights violations perpetrated against the Davidians by the FBI/BATF. Here is what I've got so far. Care to add any or provide more backup info? First Amendment: 1) FBI/BATF violated Davidians right to free exercise of religion from the start. We now have a de facto precident against any minority religion. 2) FBI/BATF violated BD right to free speach by: a> preventing them to speak to media b> preventing them from practicing their beliefs 3) FBI/BATF violated the freedom of the press by: a> keeping them 2 miles from the Davidians b> preventing the media to cover the FBI/BATF actions close-up c> censoring media reports 4) FBI/BATF violated the BD's right to peaceable assemble a> proven by initial baseless assault Second Amendment: 1) The BATF went after them because they had too many guns and guns that the FBI/BATF didn't approve of. 'Nuff Said. Fourth Amendment: 1) The right of the BD's to be "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures" was violated by: a> Initial baseless assault Fifth Amendment: 1) The Davidians were "held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime" without a "presentment or indictment by a Grand Jury." 2) The Davidians were "deprived of life, liberty, and property without due process of law. Sixth Amendment: 1) The accused were denied the right to "a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury" when the FBI became judge, jury and executioner. 2) The BD's were never informed of the specific "nature anad cause of the accusation." Eighth Amendment: 1) The Davidians suffered cruel and unusual punishment when: a> The FBI cut off the water to the ranch b> The FBI used Psy-War (loudspeakers broacasting the screams of dying rabbits and Tibetian Chants) c> The FBI prevented family members from contacting their family inside the ranch. d> The FBI used tear-gas against them (especially the children) e> The FBI burned the ranch down. f> Thoes who escaped were imprisoned without bail without a hearing. Anything I miss?
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Look up the facts first, post second. Bernadotte was assassinated in September 1948 by Lehi under the orders of its three commanders (one of whom was Yitzhak Shamir). There is no hard evidence of complicity of the Israeli government despite some effort by the UN and other organizations (US intelligence, Swedish government) to find it. However a great fuss was made over the apparent lack of zeal of the Israeli government to track down the killers. The Lehi man who actually pulled the trigger later became a personal friend of David Ben-Gurion. The best published account in English is A. Ilan, Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948 (Macmillan, 1989).
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Wow! It's sad to see that the University of Virginia has begun to produce such a virulent breed of Jew-haters and self-hating Jews!
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>Clayton, babe, please define the word `molest`. Are you using >a legal term or a proper dictionary term? Molest, as far as I >can remember, means `to do damage to person(s)`. My mate, >Mike, was lured into a woman's parlour when he was 14. Is >that molestation? A number of my friends (straight) lost >their virginity before that. Were they 'molested'? They told >me that they thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I see no >damage. > >Please stop pushing your objective morality on others. If you >push, people won't fall over and say 'Ye gads, you're >right!', they'll just push back. > >Have you signed up for that logic course yet? Yep -- and the child that "Tree Frog Johnson" adbucted for 6 months reportedly "enjoyed" her experiences as well. They trained her using food. As an FBI agent reported (on his disciplinary action for beating up "Tree Frog") "when you see a 2&1/2 year old baby cheerfully tell you she wants a peanut butter sandwich and she'll suck your pee-pee, you lose control". You are quite sick. -- There are actually people that STILL believe Love Canal was some kind of environmental disaster. Weird, eh?
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You can't think of any valid reason to own a gun that can't wait? Either you have a very limited imagination or a strange definition of the word "valid". Here are a few reasons you might want a gun *right now*: You're a Korean greengrocer in LA and a riot has just started in a nearby neighborhood. You've received a death threat. Your SO has just broken your arm and you fear for your life if you stay with him and he's said he'll kill you if you leave him. A psychopath is breaking into people's houses in your neighborhood and robbing and killing people inside. A violent mugger is operating on the route you have to take to get to your night job. There are lots of dangers you might be in that won't wait for the waiting period for you to purchase a gun.
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[snip].... Excellent point, Mark. We should all remember that if Nixon hadn't tried to cover up the misguided actions of some of his subordinates in the Watergate burglary, the scandal would never have brought down his presidency. So far, Klinton seems to be stonewalling this the same way Tricky Dick did. His whole case seems to be "we didn't do anything wrong". However, if in the course of the investigation it turns out that the gov't DID do something wrong, and he tried to cover it up, then that's an impeachable crime, I believe... Perhaps he is inadvertently cooking up his own scandal... Can you say "Wacogate", little neighbor?... ;-)
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We're having to associate with you against our will. This is fascism! You don't have to associate with anyone against your will. Go live in a cave. We won't miss you. Drewcifer
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Everyone is complaining about the debacle in Waco. It is hard to understand all this angst. What happend there is nothing less than what we wanted to happen. Why all the sour grapes ? BATF was looking for a propaganda event to counteract their impending budget cuts ... the attendance of the press at the initial big commando raid is proof. It would have been ever so easier to grab Koresh and his central followers as they shopped in Waco. Alas, no propaganda value there. The FBI screwed-up big time, all the time. They should have never allowed the situation to drag out like that. A quick second assault, before the BDs could decide on a strategy, would have been the better plan. The BDs themselves were the biggest screw-ups though. They imagined that US law and US law-enforcement had no jurisdiction within their little 'country'. WRONG ! They had no right whatsoever to fire on the BATF, and if they mistook their identity initially, they should have surrendered at once when they did realize who they were. If the BDs had a problem with the warrants, they take it to court, just like the rest of us. If they wanted full-auto weapons, they could have obtained the proper permits, just like the rest of us would need to do. What they may NOT do is decide for themselves what US law applies to themselves and which does not. They get their chance like the rest of us - at the voting booth. If the BATF and FBI have become latter-day Gestapo, then they have become that way because WE have desired them to be so. We get to vote on laws, and on the lawmakers. By our choices over the years, we have approved the creation and form of the BATF and FBI. When the FBI was out chasing 'pinkos', the general public didn't seem to mind a bit of extra-constitutional activity. When the BATF is raiding militant black organizations, we don't mind the heavy hand. When the FBI is dicking around with the rights of potheads, the public doesn't mind. Suddenly, when we see a bit of ourselves in the current 'enemy' choosen by these agencies, we get all bent out of shape. SUPRISE ! You reap what you sow. Waco was an encapsulation of the All-American experience - religious fanaticism, militaristic thinking and overwhelming violence. Don't blame it on 'them', the FBI and BATF. They were just acting within the parameters we have set over the years. We made 'them'. We ARE 'them'.
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Yeah sure. Maybe thermal GUNSIGHTS on the armored vehicles. When discussing military hardware and weapons, the media generally looks like a ufology convention. CS is merely the garden variety military teargas. As far as it being "humane and harmless", I've seen teenage boys knock 200lb. drill sergeants flat getting away from it.... What do you expect when idiots and criminals confirm paranoids in their paranoia...?
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Not when the power has been cut off for weeks on end. Any generators are no doubt out of fuel, too. So all they would have is wood stoves and kerosene lanters (maybe). It is alleged that the tanks pushing in the walls knocked over the lanters, starting the fire. Remember, the FBI had bugs which they even used (illegally) to eavesdrop on private conversations with the lawyers. If a suicide order were given they WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT IN TIME. If the Feds had been concerned they would have had emergency equipment ready. Not an hour or so later, not leaving the water THEY TURNED OFF, off. They could have turned it back on. They just didn't wanna. Scores to settle...
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: Here's a hypothetical question... If Clayton said something like "all : those niggers are really stupid." (Please don't be offended, I'm not racist : but merely using an example of Clayton's malign logic). And then said he : read a report that a lot of blacks in inner cities dropped out of school, I : bet he wouldn't have your support. Yet he can claim that all homosexuals are : dishonest, evil, lying child molesters without *PERSONALLY* having a single : homosexual friend or acquaintance and you'll sit there and support him. : God created a place for bigots. It's called Hell and Clayton is going : to burn there for a long time. I pray for him to find in his heart the : Christian values he espouses so that he can learn to love his gay brothers : and sisters, because anyone with so much hatred in his soul coulld never : be righteous. There is a difference between supporting Claytons opinions and supporting his right to speak. I want you to know that you cannot educate and/or elevate ones understanding by calling him names. Clayton has an opinion which in his mind is as valid as any opinion anyone else on the net has. If you were to walk up to black person to talk about blacks in the inner city and began the conversation with "Those niggers in th.......". You would lose the attention of that black person by the time you spoke your second word. All name calling and derisive remarks do is turn off the audience you are trying to address. Clayton is guilty of that and as such has distracted attention away from his message to bits and pieces of his conversation. I don't understand why people want to repeat his mistakes!
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Did I say that a child who unintentionally shoots someone is not negligent? NO. I hate to repeat myself Jim, but like I told Joe, I was not attempting in any way to justify gun control. You're right, any death is serious. THAT was my point to Joe who said that "anti-gunners" try to convinve the country that accidental gun deaths related to children are a serious problem. I guess I assumed everyone thought that it was a problem. No, I don't want to discuss match control. I don't equate a book of matches to a loaded 9 millimeter either. Don't confuse the issue. And please don't say that tired old NRA line "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Sure, people can kill people without guns. But easy access to guns makes it a lot more convenient. "Guns don't kill people, People with easy access to guns kill people". Jim, I'm just saying how it is. I'm not saying if that is a good thing or not. From the police who I have talked with who run some of these gun buyback programs, I get the impression that they really think they are having an impact on the community. When I ask them if they have an evaluatory component to the program, they say "well no..." So, in answer to your question, no, false hope is not the intent. I think the intent is to show folks that police are attempting to do something to curb interpersonal gun violence whether its effective or not. Look, if you can't measure the impact of these programs using some sort of pre-test and post-test evaluation, what is the point? It must be symbolic in nature. The police are essentially saying "look, if you have a gun lying around and you don't want it, we'll give you $50 for it...because we care about the community". If you, I and Joe could think of a way to measure the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of these programs we could become rich and famous.
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That was a reasonable insertion, so folks would know "Random" hadn't made an error reposting your message. No one was flaming you for the typo. I have heard such claims from disgruntled former members. Could be true, who knows. No proof. And what does all this have to do with the BATF and FBI actions? No, you missed his. This from someone who does not have a return address in his header: ---- Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns From: () Subject: Re: CLINTON JOINS LIST OF GENOCIDAL SOCIALIST LEADERS Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT. Lines: 65 ---- Whereas David Pope (random) did, so a reasonable newsreader could simply hit reply to his comments, but not to yours. Get an education in Internet use, "my man". Jim -- jmd@handheld.com
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You are not sticking to the original question. Imagine what it would be like if you were human...impossible you say? Is that not the crux of my argument? Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Lack of intelligence? Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion and national origin? 1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5] 2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4] 3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4] 4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4] 5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4] 6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4] 7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet Armenia.[1,2,3,4] 8).... [1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144. [2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press, 1985. [3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37. [4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316. [5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24, 1915. Source: Jorge Blanco Villalta, 'Ataturk,' TKK, 1979, pg. 234. "They [Armenians] did not refrain from giving in to their racial hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the Moslem population, which were encouraged by the 'Tashnak' party, mortal enemies of Turkey." Serdar Argic
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("Andi Beyer") responds: Talk about generalizations. Indeed, you DO sound quite immature. What? The ACLU fighting against an anti-hate law? You mean that the ACLU would support gay-bashing, racial discrimination and anti-semitic violence? Thanks, Andi, for reminding us that the constitution preserves our rights to such fun activities. Probably, but Galileo happened to be right. Jews are offended by the Holocaust deniers, too. The Revisionists, who deny that history even happened, happen to be wrong.
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We have three options with respect to the Constitution: 1. Abide by it. 2. Duly amend it. 3. Abandon those parts of which a majority disapproves. Of course, since the whole point of the Constitution is to restrain the will of the majority, and since even in unfettered democracy we have nothing to fear from minorities, #3 amounts to abandoning the Constitution altogether. Which will it be? --- Mark Pundurs
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Please take this thread out of "tx.politics.talk.politics.guns" which does not exist. How about "tx.politics,talk.politics.guns" instead, eh? -- Ed McGuire 1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780 Systems Administrator/ Dallas, Texas 75234 Member of Technical Staff 214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110 Intellection, Inc. <ed@intellection.com>
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In the abstract, what you're saying is true. But the facts happen to agree with me, and disagree completely with you. Listen, Pinkas. I'm going to count on the supposition that you think through the opinions you have - something which is, by the way, against my better judgment based on what I've seen from you to date. We are agreed, aren't we, that dictionaries are *reference books* for the usage of a given language, and in particular for the meanings of the words and phrases which comprise that language? Now, you are using meanings completely different from, indeed in some cases diametrically different from, those given in the dictionary. As a reference book, a dictionary contains those meanings in both past and (as much as it can) in current use. That's also why they are updated so often. Now, if you are saying things which you give different meanings than the dictionary does, and using non-standard meanings about every word, what is your chance of being taken at face value...? Just about none. Just about no one will take you that way because the words mean something different to them. It's quite clear to me from the response this thread has been getting that that is exactly what is happening. Ponder that. What you did was ask a leading question. In English idiom, the phrase "and guess why..." in the way you used it is a loaded question, with only one answer expected. I also take offense at being told I cannot read by someone who is obviously having trouble with the subject himself. Mr. Pinkas, I am a PhD candidate in my field. One does not get to PhD candidacy if one cannot read. Balderdash. You know this is false. I would be able to make the abstraction if it bore any resemblance to the facts of the matter. Yours did not. The analogy is utterly inapplicable. I wouldn't be in the field I'm in -- astrophysics -- if I couldn't make abstractions and speculate about the general grand scheme of things. I also wouldn't be in education -- which I am (and my students give me rather good reviews I'd add) -- if I couldn't draw such analogies. The vast majority of Palestinians in Israeli prisons aren't tortured, and their houses weren't blown up by the army. In fact, you've seen me protesting such measures ON THIS NET before. Are you now trying to intimate my agreement with them? Do you know the meanings of the words you use or do you expect the reader to read your mind? I can read just fine thank you. And I don't need someone who is obviously having some troubles with a tongue which isn't his native one telling me how to read the words in my own native tongue. If it were Spanish, I'd ask you. Yes, they are. As you well know. Balderdash. See above. Once again, you have a lot of gall and absolutely no right to lecture a native speaker of a language, who is well educated in it, in a language which isn't your own native tongue and with which you're obviously having problems. Social life is one thing, legal status is another. Once again, this is a leading question. Final question: Is it possible to be both Jewish and Muslim? Jewish and Christian? Your response will be enlightening.
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What's this? Another idiot from McRCIM.McGill.EDU? Or are these all the same dope using different accounts?
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BUT... Suppose they had waited. The WORST outcome would have been the one that actually did. But with the FBI/ATF just standing there watching instead of being a part of the problem. It then would have been very clear exactly who was at fault then, rather than the way it turned out. AND, that would have been the WORST case. The best would have been, they finally get hungry and come out. Possible/likely? Well, the alternative was worse... But what does it matter? Why say "I don't remember...." when it doesn't make any difference? Altho the clintonettes have been pretty good at lying when it wasn't necessary, they didn't do it this time. But it wasn't necessary - claiming full responsibility is a totall meaningless gesture. Symbolism over substance - again! I've offered to take full responsibility. When do they pay me the big bucks the AG is making...???? ;^) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Let me see if I got this right. Group of religious plinter schismatics erect a compound and after at least fifty years of peaceful co-existance with the outside community (having shoot outs only with each other) - this makes them dangerous. Prior history would seem to indicate they are only dangerous to themselves. Last I knew there was no National Branch Davidian Party blaming the debacle in VeitNam on Foreign Meddlers and three-two beer, calling for the Rounding up of Meat Packers, Growers and Slaughter Houses. You want tough political choices - how about letting odd balls be odd balls? (I know, this requires tolerance for those that go into Government - but we all know people who have no useful skills.) ith the death of the children everybody is getting real upset - what about the other 40 plus people? I suppose that you consider children to be property of the state with the family as custodians. (In the States its the other way around - children are parental property.) If what you consider a Corrupt Government demands that you send you children into _their_ tender care - I suppose that you will obey the State and turn you children over to their care. Sorry - I am not as enamoured of the womb to tomb cradle that is IngSoc. Gotta go, the beach is calling. chus pyotr
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Look nobody asked those countries about their UN forces to be on the ground. They can take their forces which are incomponent and ineffective at the first place. And let whoever are willing to do the job what it takes. How anyone can defend this stinking UN force on the ground who let the Bosnnian PM yanked out from the UN vehicle and being shot by the Serbian military? How anyone can defend this UN force who are just watching the shelling on cities and towns everyday? How anyone can defend and say those stinking UN forces being effective when Bosnian had almost 14,000 children casualties between 5-14 age groups? I think talking about the current UN forces to Bosnian muslims is just an insult to their casualties. I think Senator Biden said it all what has to be said on this issue. Europe is a sad place to criticize human rights in anywhere in this world. Like Biden said, they are the bigots when it comes to cultural difference and minorty closer to their home. Because they get rid of their minorities long long time ago starting in 15th centuries. And they let Adolph to take care of the rest in 20th Century. But he was much more naughty than they expected because he dared to step many toes. So, why spoil the good thing now when Serbs doing today what they were thinking the same yesterday.
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Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th) From: Nick Jovanovic, jovanovic-nick@yale.edu Date: 12 May 1993 17:19:43 -0400 No, I'm not claiming 2,000,000 have been killed. We are in the middle of the genocide process that Mr. Major has given yet another "green light" to. Mladic seems to have most of what he wants, but Boban is just getting his appetite whetted. Because Mladic refuses to allow international observers to inspect mass-grave sites and killing centers in places like Foca, Brcko, and Visegrad, it will be years before we have an accurate account of the number killed. In practical terms, it would be impossible to kill all 2,000,000. There just isn't the kind of machinery of crematoria and gas chambers and transportation lines that the Nazis took 8 YEARS to develop. And remember, the Nazis killed minorities in the countries they occupied. To actually kill 42% of the population requires extreme genocidal organization. But I do claim that the goal of the genocide is the systematic annihilation of Bosnian Muslim culture, by killing as many as is feasible, by rape, by torture, by the demolition of mosques, libraries, and culture artificts, the burning and renaming of villages, the shelling of civilians. So that there won't be any of the 2,000,000 or so Muslims whose lives have not been shattered by the genocide, though they still may be alive. And Mr. Major not only finds this acceptable, he helps it along by making sure that the victims don't have arms to defend themselves. Mike.
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Although I don't want to muddy the waters unnecessarily I disagree. Any discrimination based on religion is not and cannot be racist unless the sole qualification for religious membership is racial. This is not the case for Israel although it might get a little closer than, say, Islam. This of course raises the vexed question of Church AntiSemitism. Jews have been heavily discriminated against on the grounds of religion in many Christian countries. If we take Russia as an example Jews were seriously persecuted but that persecution in the eyes of the Church and State stopped at the baptismal font. Officially anyway. If a Jew converted there were no legal barriers in his way (that I know of anyway.) Peter the Great's Interior Minister came from such a convert background. Can we then claim that the Russian Orthodox did not teach AntiSemitism and was not AntiSemitic? Similarly for the Roman Catholic Church? I suspect so as this is not a racial 'taint' but one based on belief and AS is after all a form of racism. Well maybe not. What is AntiSemitism then if not something racially based? I wonder if Hitler killed converts of 'pure' German blood. Does anyone know one way or the other? Joseph Askew
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THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary ______________________________________________________________ For Immediate Release April 20, 1993 REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT DURING PRESENTATION OF TEACHER OF THE YEAR AWARD The Rose Garden 1:25 P.M. EDT THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon. Please be seated. I want to say, first, how delighted I am to be here with Secretary Riley and with Senator Graham. The three of us served as governors together during the 1980s when we worked constantly on strategies to improve our schools, when we led often difficult and long efforts to upgrade the standards in American education and to improve the quality of instruction our children were receiving. There were no two governors whom I admired more during that period than the two who now stand on this stage with the Teacher of the Year. And I think both of them would join me in saying that, after all the testimony has been heard and all the bills have been passed and the funds have been raised and allocated, it all comes down to what happens between the teacher and the students in the classroom. That's why today's ceremony honoring the National Teacher of the Year is so important. Tracey Leon Bailey is one recognition all across our country for highly advanced and innovative science programs. He's developed and introduced into Florida's classrooms cutting-edge programs in molecular biology and DNA fingerprinting -- subjects usually taught only in college and, I might add, probably only dimly understood here in the Nation's Capital. (Laughter.) Within three years of being hired by a satellite high school, Mr. Bailey's institution had one of the strongest science programs in the entire state of Florida, and it won numerous national and international awards. These advanced programs aren't just for a favored few. Tracey Bailey has inspired all kinds of students, including those previously known as low-achieving or at-risk to reach for excellence and to attain it. This is what our students need and what our country needs. Today, we know that a good future with high wages and rich opportunities rests on the foundation of quality education for a lifetime. The basics aren't enough anymore. All our kids need competence in math and science and advanced problem-solving. That's why Tracey Bailey's accomplishments are so important and why I am so pleased and proud to participate in recognizing and honoring these accomplishments. Tracey, you represent the best in the United States. I'm glad to recognize you today and to formally present you with this Apple Award as the Teacher of the Year for 1993. (Applause.) MR. BAILEY: Thank you, Mr. President. It is indeed a great honor and a tremendous responsibility to represent the nation's 2.5 million teachers. And we appreciate the support that you have shown for education, and we're looking forward to working with you to help redesign and improve our nation's schools. We know that the quality of our children's education will directly impact the future of our economic and social landscape in the years to come. And we thank you so much for your continued support and commitment to our children's education. Thank you again. (Applause.) THE PRESIDENT: In closing, I would like to also welcome the education leaders in Florida who are here, those representing the national education groups who have also come. I'd like to recognize Tracey's congressman, Representative Jim Bacchus in the back, himself a great advocate of education. And I'd like to remind all of you that the ultimate purpose of the National Teacher of the Year Award is to find a way for the rest of us to express our appreciation to people all across this country who give their lives to our children, all of the teachers of this country who get up every day and do their best to try to advance the cause of learning for all the children of America. They are, in so many ways, our most important public servants. Thank you very much. (Applause.)
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Okay, here is the result of my efforts. I'm just getting started with this type of activity, so please set your flame-thowers on low. Comments, corrections, suggestions, welcomed. **************************************************************************** Editor, I would like to ask you and your readers a few questions that are related to the "right to keep and bear arms", and to a greater degree, the many other "rights" that we take for granted on a daily basis. 1. You're sleeping at night, when you hear someone in your house. You call the police. How will you defend yourself, should the need arise, while you are waiting for the police to arive? 2. You are driving your family home when your car breaks down. A "good samaritan" stops to "help", when you find you and your family at gun-point or knife-point. How will you defend yourself? And your Family? 3. You are a woman walking alone to your car or home. A man appears suddenly with the intent to rape you. How will you defend yourself? Are you strong enough to fight off your attacker? Are you willing to let this man rape you in order to survive the attack? If the House and Senate have their way, we will soon not have the right to keep and bear arms, as provided by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. A gun may not be the answer to each and every dangerous situation, but are you going to let the politicians decide what sort of force or weapon you may use to defend yourself and your family? Many times a situation may be diffused by just brandishing your handgun. If certain members of the House and Senate have their way, .25, .32, and 9mm ammunition will be banned for sale to anyone other than the military and law enforcement departments. Very soon, you may not be able to purchase ammunition for use in your handgun. There is already a 15 day waiting period in California. Do you really feel that any law abiding citizen should be required to wait this amount of time for the purchase of a handgun when his life or family members have been threatened? Our local police do an excellent job, but they can not be there all the time, or in a moments notice. You should have the right to protect yourself while waiting for help to arrive. There is currently legislation circulating in Washington that would prohibit the sale of certain types of ammuntion, handguns, rifles, and shot-guns. One elected official even wants to repeal the Second Amendment! I want to ask the readers of this paper what they would do if their elected officials decided that they should only belong to a "certain church", or go to church on a "partiular day"? What if you were told that you could only read certain books? Write about certain subjects? What if you no longer had the right to a jury of your peers? How about the right to assemble in a peaceful manner?
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...... When did Koresh go on a rampage? What I saw was an unnecessary, unprovoked massive attack on Feb. 28th. Probably even an illegal action by ATF, certainly way out of proportion to anything reasonable. And yet, according to a pole taken yesterday, 95% of the people poled believe the government forces acted appropriately. They don`t believe Reno or the President have any guilt in ordering/allowing the attack. I suppose they also believed things like: "I would present a 5-year plan to balance the budget." "We don`t need to lead with a tax increase...." "It starts with a middle-class tax cut..." "I`ll have the bills ready the day after I am inaugurated and we`ll have a 100 day period....It will be the most productive in modern history." "I will ask congress for a line item veto.." "I will lift the social security earnings test.." I personally prefer to disbelieve the government until they prove themselves right, rather than the other way around. That way I have a better than 50% chance of being right about my first guess! Read the constitution sometime, it is supposed to protect the citizens and their rights. I am sick of the abuse of government power.
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One of the things going for the DX2-66 (over the 50) is that it's clock speed complies with the VESA local bus spec. Lance Hartmann (lance%hartmann.austin.ibm.com@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com) Yes, that IS a '%' (percent sign) in my network address.
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JUst use xloadimage instead (or xli).
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{deletions} Yes, this is a valid concern IMHO. With the directly attached fan units I've seen, it looks like if the fan were to stop the chip cooling would be a good bit worse than no heat sink at all. In other words, if the fan stops the unit turns into an insulator and the chip might get hot enough to suffer permanent damage, not just stop working temporarily. My Zeos 486DX2/66 (tower case) has a passive heat sink on the cpu, and it's located so the front fan, which sucks air into the case, blows right on the heat sink. If that fan stops the heat sink is still cooled by convection air flow so should not see too dramatic a temperature rise. Essentially the arrangement you're talking about and a good idea IMHO.
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I'm also interested in such a program. But most of all I'd like to know wich program is able to convert GIF or PCX to DXF !!! When I have this program, I can scan pictures and frase (or something like that !) them. This will be beyond the limit !!!
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Or just use the URT tool: rastorle. Yes, both it and the newer xli can.
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Are there any Off-Line mail readers for the net-news? In qwk format? It would be really helpfull to be able to download the net news from a Vax or mainframe and read it off-line..... Adam Hodge
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We are adding a Motif wrapper to a family of data display programs. These programs are each written as a 'main loop' with these steps: - use semop to check a semaphore and if true access new data otherwise block (new data comes quite often) - use msgop to check for messages and if true read them otherwise continue (messages are user commands and not often) - update the display according to latest data and messages. We typically have several of these running in windows, plus a data producer serving some device and setting the flag. Everyone blocking makes sure the device server gets to run. Xt and Xm also have a 'main loop' model that we must fit into. O'Reilly Vol IV Ch 9 discusses adding a file-watcher and also how to add workprocs that are run during idle time. We can 'open-up' our existing main loop and call it as a workproc. The problem is our blocking until new data is no longer appropriate. Neither is letting the program free-run because others are hurt. The unix select call lets you block until any of several i/o are ready. We want that for the X main loop except not file i/o. Any suggestions or examples most welcome! We run SGI Personal Iris and Indigo systems.
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Oh no! Oh no! They've taken over comp.windows.misc and now THEY'RE COMING FOR US! --berry
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HELP! I am trying to find software that will allow COM port redirection under Windows for Workgroups. Can anyone out there make a suggestion or reccommend something. I would really hate to have to write some driver for the serial port that would support the network, but that is my next step. Thanks in advance.
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Stupid question from a new IBM PC user: I'm going to be selling my Mac and getting a Gateway 2000. What is the difference between IDE HD and SCSI HD? The GW 486DX-33V comes with a 250MB Western Digital IDE drive. I asked how much more for the Seagate 500MB SCSI drive. The guy asked me "Why are you going with SCSI?". I was lost for an answer. I just said "I know Seagate better as a company, from a satisfaction point of view". Are SCSI drives faster than IDE? I'm not buying my GW for another 4 months or so, but this is a question that has bugged me for a while.
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<clip clip> Running MS-DOS or a derivative OS, obviously. Please take note that the following is not what exactly happens, but a slightly simplified explanation. Technically, the IRQ line is only a means for the device (printer adapter, SoundBlaster, modem, hard disk, ...) to signal the CPU that "Something's happening here, please take note." How the CPU is programmed to handle this signal is usually up to the operating system. In MS-DOS, the "interrupt vector" is used to store the address of the function that handles each interrupt. Now, basic DOS doesn't care whether the printer reports that it's ready to print some more stuff or not - it simply ignores the interrupt. When DOS prints, it looks at the LPT buffer. If there's a character there, wait a while and check again. If there's not, copy a new character to the LPT port. Since the IRQ 7 is ignored as a printer interrupt, it's free for use for any other adapters - in this case, the SB. With any multitasking or otherwise advanced OS, this kind of printing approach just doesn't work (or more precisely, it wastes a lot of CPU cycles.) Hence, you can't "share" the IRQ 7 with LPT1 and SB if you're running Unix or OS/2 or whatnot. Another issue with the SB is that only the digitized sound uses interrupts. When the SB plays plain music, the CPU simply tells it what to play until told otherwise. With digitized sound the interrupt is required to notify the CPU when the output ends and new data is needed. You can, however, hook two (or more) COM ports to one interrupt, but use them only one at a time. This is because the interrupt handling routine is same for both ports, and it can see from which port the data came from. This, of course, applies for some other devices (like LPT) as well. Remember, this was greatly simplified in parts, but I think gives the general picture correctly enough. Cheers,
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There is a good report list on most all of the good monitors in this months issue of Computer Shoppers magazine, with their phone munbers and all (April issue) $2.99....Sam
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You need to run FDISK.
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Make sure that the hard disk you want to boot from is set as active (using the FDISK program that comes with DOS).
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hi, just a quick question reguarding pc tape backup. I own a 386 dos box and have an Archive VP402 interface card connected to a QIC-02 tape drive. Now the simple question is, does anybody in netland know were I can get some software for msdos (ver 5.0) to run this setup, freeware or shareware preferred . Thanks in advance, Darryl
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What's the difference between a 16550 UART and a 16550A UART? Thanks!
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--> A humble response to a letter by G. Scott Braley written 04-21-93 20:43. GSB> a 286 upgrade would probably cost about $50, 386 about $150 or so. GSB> Coprocessors or accelerator cards would cost at least that much. 'Tis true! I just saw an add for 286/20 motherboards for $80. I have seen whole 286/12 systems, complete with case, power supply, keyboard, floppy, and mono card/monitor going for $250. ... "He was a man, all and all, I shall not look upon his like again." --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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For the past week or so I've been trying to install a QIC-36 tape drive and an everex 8bit full size controller in my 486dx50 EISA system with no luck. I end up getting an error (miscompare) during the streaming read part of the test. I am pretty certain that the port setting, irq & dma are set properly since the tape responds properly to all commands, rewind, retension, write and erase, I also booted the system clean and still the same proble so I also tend to eliminate any memory conflicts. It has been suggested that my bus speed is too fast and that I need to slow it down. My system has an AMI BIOS and I don't have the advanced chip setting option that I have seen on other systems so I cant do this. Am I going to have to accept that this set up won't work? or can anyone suggest a work around? I will be glad to hear your advice/suggestions. Tony
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I don't know about Canada, but I have heard from people doing translation work in Papua New Quinea, that they like them and have had good response on service. Another is seriously considering buying one.
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What I'd like to see is the more generic N-dimensional widget set. I realize, that there wouldn't be a whole shitload of people who'd want more than 3, but why stop? All I need is a Widget with up to N viewports showing me different 3-D or 2-D slices of my stuff. alter, pat
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He's right ya know. I've helped to install Dos 6 on about 4 computers now, mine included. On one, he bought the Stacker to Doublespace converter, and it worked fine (rather, he sent in the coupon for the converter). In other cases, I've run the doublespace installation without a problem when compressing a new drive, compressing free space, or whatever else. Seems to work for me. Well, I ran the normal SETUP thing and it worked fine for whatever that's worth. Couldn't agree more. On my 486-50 I don't miss the speed. It's still faster than a normal disk read would be. As for the less compression, I've sacrificed that in favor of the convenience of having the dblspace.bin load before anything else. With Stacker, any changes to your config.sys or autoexec.bat meant rebooting twice so it could update those. Personally, I'm waiting for Stacker 4.0 to come out and implement those hooks and stuff. Plus, the DEFRAG that comes with DOS is okay, but I much prefer COMPRESS from PC-TOOLS for sheer bells and whistles. Plus, defrag is sooooo sloooow on a dblspace drive. Ditto.
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*** On 04-21-93 04:30, Michael Shapiro had the unmitigated gall to say this: MS> The DOS system date has a twenty-four hour clock and a rollover bit. MS> When the system crosses midnight, the rollover bit is turned on. MS> Subsequent reads of the time add one. There's no change possible MS> (This information was current up through DOS 3.3. I've not checked to MS> see whether it applies to later versions.) Just a small tidbit: with the advent of DOS 3.3 and later versions, MS added a small "feature" to the DOS time function. If a program sets the DOS clock via DOS system services, then DOS will set the BIOS clock to the same value. This breaks the isolation between the two clocks that used to ensure that errors in the DOS clock did not bleed over into the BIOS clock. Sometimes the Microsoft people just don't think! :) ... Fact: Mickey Mouse wears a Al Gore wristwatch. --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
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WinFax Pro provides you with OCR. It is the OCR from OmniPage. Although it is not as customizable it does the job and is auto matic (if you want) and much cheaper than the same package (Omni Page Professional = $700) sold separatly.
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Looking for ORGANIZER program for Windows. Currently have Lotus Organizer, not bad, but looking for better. Should have a calender / scheduler. Should have a to do list. Nice additions : Address / Phone Book Diary Please, any suggestions? Shareware/Public/or Copyrighted... Please EMAIL sthong@eniac.seas.upenn.edu -- ------------------------------------------- Steven Hong Email Address : sthong@eniac.seas.upenn.edu University of Pennsylvania Engineering Class of 1996
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From article <ardie.313.736188058@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ardie@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Ardie Mack): EMM386 is NOT reqired to load the DOS kernal high (or else you couldn't do it on a 286). In a mail message I recommended that he remove it since he only runs ProcomPlus frequently in DOS, and I suspect EMM386 will slow down windows.
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Alas, we too will have to stop using it. Brian
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I've got a 386DX-40, 4MB and I'm using Windows 3.1. Sometimes I wondered why Windows worked endlessly on my HD when I was doing nothing (execpt having lunch or something like that). Then I turned this virtual memory swapfile off, and Windows became quite faster, but now having less memory free. And so I'm still wondering, why windows is reading everything from virtual memory when the convertional is sufficient? Any common-sense-explanation is really appreciated.
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Recently we have found TIFF manipulation packages which do not recognize TIFF files output by xv. This is due to a missing XRESOLUTION and YRESOLUTION tag which apparently is required (or at least believed to be required) for valid TIFF. I have checked both xv 2.x and xv 3.x and neither of these do indeed copy these tags. Has anyone out there hacked in the fixes for xv to support these tags? I have been told that I could find some code in tiff/tools/tiffcp.c, but that directory is one of many of the tiff group not distributed with xv. I hope to obtain the original tiff src and look at it, but would prefer to find code already known to work in xv.
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My 486DX2-50 has 8MB of 70ns RAM and a Trident SVGA card. Sometimes I feel it runs very slowly, especially when running Windows. I'm planning to buy an ATI Graphic Ultra + next semester. Is that all I need to get the problem solved? Is 70ns RAM chips too slow for my machine? Do faster RAM chips make a big difference? I use CAD software on my computer as well. Do those up-grades good enough to speed it up a lot? Any one experienced the difference between ISA bus and VL bus(both with a graphic accelerator)? (A SCSI controller may not be appropriate, since I may have to replace my hard disks as well. However, sometimes I do have huge files on my computer. Does it really worth to use a SCSI interface? I can't spend too much on it) t he ) Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dennis dpang@uafhp.uark.edu p.s. Man! I hate the stupid text editor. Is there any way I can type my article in a DOS word-processor and load the file into usenet?
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Word 2.0c doesn't show the period-centred character to indicate spaces if I use the TTFonts from CorelDraw. Our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is a large hollow box. They overlap each other and characters on each side, which is useless. I believe the character used by W4W is the period-centred (0183). This character shows up with the windows Charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this. I have edited the corel font with Fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the 0183 character makes no difference to the font output in Charmap or W4W. Altering the paragraph (0182) or cedilla (0184) does alter their font graphics displayed however!! Is the W4W character used to indicate spaces the period-centred character? Has anyone been able to get this character displayed from a CorelDraw TTF?
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Please don't respond anymore, I have enough beta testers now. Thank you. -- Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute I R B : immer richtig beraten Univ. Dortmund, IRB Postfach 500500 |)|/ Tel.: +49 231 755-4663 D-W4600 Dortmund 50 |\|\ Fax : +49 231 755-2386
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Brandon Wise bwise@nyx.cs.du.edu
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} } } |"> It is interesting to look at the change(s) of mind that John has had. } |" } |"Very interested indeed! This is against this kind of "changes" that the GNU } |"COPYLEFT is protecting us. } |" } |"Anyway, at SIMULOG, we will abandon xv. We were using it mostly for slide- } |"shows because of its "-loop" feature that display does not have (display } |"from the *wonderful* ImageMagick package! :-D), but I think I will implement } |"it myself (even a shell-script should do the job) and forget xv. We too will have to stop using it. Shame really - it was rather nice. Still, I have no objection to the owner claiming money for legit. work he's put in. We'll just go back to the older versions of Xv.
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Here is the latest on relocating your help files to a server. The WinHelp() function, as I am told by MS, does search your path so relocating MS windows helpfiles won't be a problem as long as you include the path to where you move them to, however, if an application has hardcoded the path into their code so that when WinHelp is invoked it searches the given path (i.e. WinHelp(hwnd, c:\amipro) for example) then WinHelp does not search your path and instead looks only to that directory where you have installed your software. I tested this out on a variety of software packages. I moved all my helpfiles to the drive z:\ and included this in the path statement. Here is the results for different software packages: Norton Desktop Found Helpfiles Windows V3.1 for WorkGroups Found Helpfiles Windows V3.1 Found Helpfiles MS Powerpoint V3.0 Found Helpfiles MS Word Found Helpfiles MS Excel V4.0a Did Not Find Helpfiles (strange) MS Foxpro V2.5 for Windows Found Helpfiles Lotus Amipro V3.0 Did Not Find Helpfiles Procomm Plus for Windows Did Not Find Helpfiles I guess this is better than nothing but it would make sense to be able to specify a global path for helpfiles. If anyone has any comments or If I can help anyone or if I left something out please let me know. lhighley@gozer.idbsu.edu thanks for the help from everyone especially jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
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I think the main reason is that in the good old hacker days of the young(er) Gates' and Jobs' of the world, the computer was not as widespread a phenomenom as it is now. With the increased popularity of the PC come a plethora of mundane business uses which required more practical minded and narrower-focused programmers. Why be a hacker when you can get a good job programming databases or programs for accountants? Basically, the yuppies caught up and disciplined the hackers, and molded them in their own image.
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Lotus Organizer!!! Quick, cheap, pretty! And has all of those features you want ... You might look at one of the shell alternatives provided by third parties. Norton Desktop for Windows, for instance. Personally, I *like* File Manager, which comes with Windows. It's much faster than NDW's, and the File Manager that's part of Windows for Workgroups even has a decent button bar. That first you can do with File Manager, but the others you'll need to look at NDW or PC Tools for Windows, etc. I haven't yet seen a decent freeware or even shareware shell. But it may be just me.
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I recently installed dos 5.0 on a few machines, and the users claim that when they use the mouse often, the screen will blank, and the machine will lock up. There are no viruses, they are not running any TSR's. (the mouse is a logitec 2 button) Anybody got any ideas? thanks
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HELLO, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY WINDOW 3.1 PROGRAM SOMETIMES WHEN I SAVE SETTINGS OF PROGRAM MANAGER THE SYSTEM CORRUPT ONE OR MORE *.GRP FILES AND PROGMAN.EXE CAN'T OPEN IT ON NEXT START. THANKS FOR ANY ANSWER. CHROBERT
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What's the best way to archive GIF's? I zip them and they only shrink 1%. I have most compression programs except stacker which I heard was good for GIF's. Thanx -Brando
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Haven't we wasted enough bandwidth on this silly discussion already!! [Please no flames -- let sanity prevail]
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Krzysztof Muchorowski was asking about GIF-to-TGA conversion so that he could use DTA 1.5 to convert the TGA files to FLI animation files.
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Recently, Windows has starting giving me the error "Sound Blaster Pro: Requires newer version of Windows 3.1." It has worked correctly for a long time, and don't know what the problem could be. Thanks! --
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Has anyone built Xkernel for 3/80's? It works great on our 3/50s, and I would just as soon kiss the entire Sun 3 architeture goodbye (and reclaim a bunch of disk space). Email me direct, I'll post a summary.
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There has been a long running discussion over changing the Startup logo for Windows for a few weeks here. While all the COPY methods are great & haven't seen any mention of a program that will do it for you..... Well... I found one on CICA called winlogo (Can't remember where unfortuantely), and it seems to work real well... even comes with a couple example .RLE files. What I'd really like though is a way to create .RLE files myself, specifically the RLE4 format mentioned in the winlogo readme file. Can anyone point me in the direction of such a beast with a REAL directory path ?? All the ones I've seen mentioned didn't pan out.....
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Should come with visual basic. New version is vbrun200.dll. Thx Dave L
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unsubscribe
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I solved my problem. I still do not understand why it happens ths way; perhaps some of you C++ gurus can explain this to all of us! For some reason when I define the following functins in the class definition (in the .h file) the compiler thinks some pure virtual functions are not defined. When I placed these two in a separate source file and compiled them, the problem went away. Any ideas what happen? Are the functions that are defined in the class construct all inline ? Is this the problem? virtual int isEqual (const Object _FAR &obj) const { return this == &(HashEntry&) obj; } virtual void printOn( Rostream os) const { os << "[ HWindow is " << (void _FAR *) hWindow << " ]\n"; } --
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In X10, the drawing attributes were bundled into drawing requests; that is, the server's drawing model was stateless. This caused problems with performance and network traffic, so the X11 redesign included the graphic context to codify the drawing state. Most application designers who want to draw things in several different colors create a GC for each color during initialization, then pass the GC id in each drawing request.
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