id int32 0 7.53k | text stringlengths 0 61.3k | label int64 0 6 |
|---|---|---|
6,897 | Poor Phill Hallam-Baker. The tremors are getting worse, and his
stratospheric typing skills can no longer keep up. [spelling flame or
real sympathy - only his hairdresser knows for sure]
[Official Mossad policy: we don't stop until we get Disneyland!] | 5 |
1,671 |
But it IS made false by your ridiculous leap of logic from "monogamous
homosexual male sex is so rare" (which is a load of horseshit--as
proportionately many queers are monogamous as hets, and the ones who aren't
use condoms, for the most part) to "for practical purposes, homosexuality
spreads AIDS." No. Unprotected sex with an infected partner spreads AIDS.
These "practical purposes" you speak of are obviously the purposes of
spreading homophobia, which leads me to an interesting truth: "Cramer
spreads hate." Isn't that nice?
You mean, "Typical homosexual response to Clayton E. Cramer." I think any
human being would react that way to someone as contemptibly hateful as you,
actually. I seem to hear the same sort of thing coming from your posts, you
know....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Planning to make this a complete sentence anytime soon?
Drewcifer | 5 |
3,223 |
Or perhaps David Koresh didn't listen too well?? Just because mistakes
were made does not mean the President *lied*.
| 5 |
6,234 | My recollection of History/Documentary books is slitely different.
It is my understanding that Croats were allies of Germany during
WWII, while Serbs had sided with Russia. As a result Serbs did
take a beating from Croats (NOT Bosnian Moslems) while Germany
had the upper hand.
Even today, Russians consider/call Serbs as their Slovac brothers.
This is one of the issues involved in the U.N.'s lack of active
intervention against Serbs.
As for the Bosnian Moslems, I have not heard of any alliance with
Germany or Russia in recent history. Therefore, I am curious
if they did or were able to treat other parties in this conflict
with same brutallity (as they are getting it today) in the past
history. | 5 |
2,757 |
The Houston Chronicle last Thursday (maybe Wednesday) said that
the interior of walls had been covered with hay bales to help
protect against bullets. Many of you know how fast dry hay
burns.
In addition, the gas is specifically designed to force eyes
closed and the victim to vomit. How fast could you leave your
burning office or home if your eyes were closed and you were
retching violently?
-- | 5 |
2,973 | Message-ID: <1993Apr26.202714.4519@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 20:27:14 GMT
First, the following two quite normal phrases:
^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^
and then he shows us what HE means by "intelligent and unoffending manner"
and "INTELLIGENT conversation":
^^^^^^^^^^^^
[...deleted lines...]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[...deleted lines...]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[...deleted lines...]
Later he reveals the truth:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[...deleted lines...]
Shurely he IS an anti-Semite (call it anti-Jew), maybe BECAUSE he
is "part Jewish" (e.g. his mother might have *dated* a Jew who
didn't marry her, and so she got a little bastard whom she taught
hatred).
He is also a coward since he doesn't dare to sign with his name.
At the end he signs with a highly intelligent and intellectual
phrase:
Message-ID: <1993Apr26.203425.4824@Virginia.EDU>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 20:34:25 GMT
The Nazis might also have sent this bastard to the gas chambers
because of his "part Jewish"ness (only that he is not aware of it).
PS: I wonder what kind of educational institution is @virginia.edu.
Could it be the "Free KKK-University of Virginia" ? ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manfredo Tichauer M. EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
Opitzstrasse 14 VOICE : (++ 49 40) 27.42.27
2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY FAX : (++ 49 40) 270.53.09 | 5 |
5,205 |
Of course they did, otherwise they wouldn't have staged the
raid in the first place.
Napalming seems a bit redundant.
The Stupidity was in the BATF mindset 'We're from Washington
We Know Better" Execute Plan A: Storm the compound in a No-Knock
- the locals are gullible rubes, who cares that they served
warrents by knocking on the door. Such an old fashioned, out dated
method of Law Enforcement anyway. Gotta have the latest Armament
Technology, doncha know?
Sweet baby buddah - didn't these clown ever read "Dealing
with Paranoids"?
chus
pyotr
| 5 |
5,826 |
I couldn't agree more. Canada has an anti-hate law which exists to punish
those who wilfully spread false propaganda (lies) for the purpose of
putting down another group. This is actually the law that David Irving
will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
Steve
-- | 5 |
5,527 | Bye.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has Garrett Johnson
come." --Tussman Garrett@Ingres.com
"The probability of someone watching you is proportional
to the stupidity of your action." - Unknown | 5 |
6,059 |
Generally the ship sinks (sorry, there's a picture of the
USS Iowa next to my desk).
First, unless that round is chambered there is little threat of
penetration by the bullet, or the brass for that matter. Unless that
expanding gas is held in an enclosed space you get a nice "pop" and not
enough threat for even firefighters to worry about. Finally, it's
rather simple to tell if a person was shot prior to being burned to
a crisp. See, by the time the ammunition went up those people were
quite dead. Look for blood around the wound, particularly bruising.
However, it's my contention that it makes little difference
whether they died from exploding ammunition or fire; the Feds seem
to have shared responsibility for both. | 5 |
3,852 |
That doesn't answer my question: Can you give a proof that it is an official
policy of any Israeli government to kill "neutral observers" or UN personel
or others like them?
I wasn't sure that your original statement was wrong and was prepared to
recieve proofs that you are right (since I don't follow the events closely).
Your last response made me pretty damn sure that at least YOU can't give such
a proof, and you made your original statement without much ground to put it
on.
Even if it's true (and in this case I'd take it without asking you to prove it)
it is still far from killing reporters. Also whenever that happened I'll bet
it happened as individual actions by certain soldiers and not as a policy of
the government (e.g. see the Hawara case where a colonel was sentenced for
giving orders to kick Arabs, as far as I remember).
Bye,
| 5 |
899 |
Hmm... For more recent lesson what about that little square in China?
Another lesson might be the one repeated every year in Tibet...
And of course there's always El Salvador...
And the beat goes on and on... :^(
MESSAGES FROM GOD: GET OFF YOUR ASS! DON'T TRUST THE
GOVERNMENT! AT ANY TIME! FOR ANY REASON! -THE SCREAMING MAN
CONNECT THE GOD-DAMNED DOTS!!! Ministry, TV Song
| 5 |
3,097 | # #From the Santa Rosa (Cal.) Press-Democrat, April 15, 1993, p. B2:
# #
# # Male sex survey: Gay activity low
#
# Note this contradictory title- Gay Activity Low.
Not really. The percentage of gays was low. Headline writers aren't
noted for accuracy.
# # A new natonal study on male sexual behavior, the most thorough
# # examination of American men's sexual practices published since
# # the Kinsey report more than four decades ago, shows about 2
# # percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and
# # 1 percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual.
# #
# #The article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners.
# #The median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3.
#
# #It's a shame that we don't have a breakdown for
# #straight men vs. gay/bi men -- that would show even more dramatically
# #how much more promiscuous gay/bi men are.
# #--
#
# Now let's take a quick look at what you are saying.
#
# The median of a distribution is that variate-value which divides the
# distribution halfway, i.e. 1/2 of the distribution (population) have
# lower and half have higher variate-values.
#
# So for Males 20-39 the median=7.3, this means that half of these men
# are higher than this and half are lower than this. Now if the population
# sample size is 3300, and 1% of them are gay, 33 males are gay. If we
Actually, 2% were either exclusively homosexual, or bisexual. You aren't
readiing very carefully.
# say they are distributed equally then only 16.5 are greater than 7.3
# sexual partners, of course, this means that 49.5% heterosexual men are
# greater than 7.3.
#
# Interesting results.
| 5 |
1,451 | :
: It would seem that a society with a "failed" government would be an ideal
: setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented. Now why do you suppose
: that never seems to occur?...
Advances in freedom have been made in the past. The "divine right of
king" concept was questioned at one time and may have used the same
argument, that it hadn't come about before. But our ancestors had the
courage to throw off the old system that said that one man ruling many
was necessary to have a decent, wholesome society. In the 1800s the
concept of slavery was questioned. Our ancestors had the courage to
question a practice that had existed for thousands of years. Was
the idea that one man owning another necessary to have a decent,
wholesome society? Now libertarians question the necessity of
majoritarianism. Is it necessary that many people rule over many
others to have a decent, wholesome society? | 5 |
1,902 | I'm not sure were this thread has been before i popped in, but I've never
thought of waiting periods as having anything to do with training or
competence. I just can't imagin any valid reason for having a gun that
can't wait a few days. I can think of plenty of bad reasons for not
wanting a waiting period: I want to buy a gun and kill so-and-so right
now, I've crossed the state line to buy a gun illegally and I can't
afford to spend the night here, etc.
I'm not a big fan of guns, but I feel that it is important to guard
American's rights to own them. On the other hand, we license and regulate
many things without seriously impeding anyones constitutional rights. | 5 |
2,958 | # #However, monogamous homosexual male sex is so rare that for practical
# #purposes, homosexuality spreads AIDS.
# #--
# #Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine!
# #Relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all.
# You fucking homophobic moron!!!!!!!!! What about IV drug use? What about
# tainted blood? What about multi-sexual partners? If you knew anything
What about them? Those also spread AIDS. Where did I say anything
different? Go back and read what I wrote. The statement "homosexuality
spreads AIDS" is not made false by the fact that there are other
methods of spreading it as well.
# about what you are talking about, you would be dangerous. As it is right now,
# you are a persistent boil on the skin of humanity that needs to be lanced.
#
# Joe Cipale
Typical homosexual response.
| 5 |
3,461 |
[unrelated text deleted]
I think that Phil needs to get out a ruler and see exactly how big 50mm rounds
are - roughly 2" diameter. The type of stuff used in Anti-Aircraft gunnery.
.50 calibre is much smaller, but the 3000m effective range (~2mi) sounds about
right. Maybe he just got the two confused..... The FBI's reasoning was sound,
but the note from PH-B was factually wrong.
Tom H.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Tom Hyatt I'm a diehard Saints fan, so i've thyat@sdf.lonestar.org suffered quite enough, thank you! Arlington, TX Help! I'm being repressed! -M.Python -------------------------------
| 5 |
5,926 |
The cases aren't really comparable. A project like a freeway requires
public hearings, court action, appeals, advance determination of
restitution, and so on. The razing of the Moghrabi district in East
Jerusalem happened within hours of the end of the hostilities of the 6
Day War. The residents were given only two or three hours' notice to
pack up and find accomodations elsewhere. They had no chance of
public hearing, debate, appeal, negotiation or anything. It was get
out or die in the rubble.
| 5 |
4,086 |
Geez, I think some of these people have been too long on the net,
you are not going to convince anyone of anything through violent
language, one wonders why so many have violent tounges...
| 5 |
1,541 |
It will be ironic in the extreme if Spector manages to uncover a
government conspiracy and cover-up in this case. Maybe he'll posit a
Magic Grenade that lit fires in three wings of the building at once.
| 5 |
596 |
never heard of arguement by absurdity, eh no? Also called
sarcasm. The usual procedure is to accept some part of the
'oppositions' arguement and run with it until one goes
beyond 'rational thought' and then ring the changes.
z.B. The idea of a minimum wage is considered a good one.
And in these times of economic difficulty, the Washington
legislature is propossing to raise the State MinWage from
$4.25 (the federal level) to $4.90 (fifteen cents over
Oregon's).
It would seem to me that this increase does not
keep pace with inflation, that the minimum wage should be
to $6.08 by my figures, so it is proposed that we raise
the minimum wage to $6.50 per hour by 1 July and then give
a 10% cost of living increase every 4 July.
and anyone who doesn't like it is obviously a country club
republican getting rich off the exploitation of poor people.
chus
pyotr
| 5 |
7,109 | So why not condemn the Mufti for his Nazi leanings, and condemn all his
supporters, while also condemning the similarly genocidal killing of
innocents, Muslim or not, in Bosnoia-Herzegovina? Hatred and bigotry
remain just that, no matter who practices them. | 5 |
94 |
Are you aware you can make a grenade with gunpower and metal water pipes?
Maybe we should outlaw hardware stores and ammo reloading.
Are you aware that you can make a firebomb with gasoline? etc.
| 5 |
5,009 |
Hey, joe -- assuming you're old enough to remember it -- how did you feel
about presidential responsibility every time Reagan said "I don't recall"
about his arms-for-hostages meetings with the Ollie North gang?
How did you feel about it when Bush said he "was out of the loop on that
decision" when he was right there in the thick of it?
Oh, right. "He was responsible in the sense that he was briefed, but so
what -- shit happens!" Is that what you said?
-- | 5 |
4,119 |
Actually I am not sure you have understood what I have said. On several
occasions a minor party has put up an Arab for a Cabinet position. That
is the major party (Labour in this case) has agreed that a minor party
can have so many seats and that party nominates an Arab for one. This is
not acceptable to the major party which insists on the minor party
appointing a Jew. The favours owed, deals done, have all been settled.
What remains is exactly who is going to sit in Cabinet. The party that
gets the seat wants an Arab but that is not acceptable. This *is* racism.
It has nothing to do with politics at all.
Joseph Askew
| 5 |
651 | #
# >This issue has been going on for a while and your presentation here of
# >just one reference probably won't resolve this issue to those that
# >oppose your insistence that mosques *were* destroyed. Even in your
# >location of this one reference, you spend most of your quote dealing
# >with an incidence that, while abhorrant, has nothing to do with the
# >issue at hand here. Then, at the end of the quote, there is an almost
# >off-hand comment that "two mosques" were destroyed.
# >
# >To support a claim of this nature, what other authors support this
# >incident? If identifiable mosques were destroyed they are certainly
# >identifiable, they have names and addresses (steet location). The
# >comment by one reporter *does* make us wonder if "this happened" but
# >by no means "proves it.
#
# There is no doubt that Israeli authorities ordered the destruction of
# mosques in the vicinity of the Wailing Wall. That does not mean,
# however, that once can generalize from this to any other points. The
# entire plaza, mosques and all, was cleared to make it possible for Jews
# to have a place to worship in the place that was holiest to many of
# them, and which had been denied to them for millenia.
#
# On the other hand, throughout the rest of Jerusalem and Israel, to the
# best of my knowledge, Israeli authorities have scrupulously avoided
# damage to any Islamic religious sites. This contrasts with the policies
# of previous regimes which destroyed Jewish synagogues out of hate and
# bigotry.
Or, for that matter, with the USA. Around here, nobody reroutes
freeways to avoid churches, synagogues, and so forth. They just
get condemned, paid off, and the road goes through. The same is
standard policy for any number of other public projects: schools
and sports arenas being only two examples.
Anticipating the objection that the cases aren't comparable: how
not? The Wall has to count as the #1 tourist attraction in that
part of the world; making room for the traffic would be a twenty
second decision for any city council I ever heard of. | 5 |
1,489 |
That probably is not true. But today it may not be much better for
the gay population in general.
Where are all of these studies? You have cited a few, and my research
shows that there are not that many. Do Not Confuse a survey as a
study, there is a big difference. Asking people outside of a polling
booth and adding up numbers is NOT a study.
But this is what you base most of your conclusion upon. Warm
fuzzy feelings.
Maybe he has stated an educated opinion based upon the studies
that involve genetics and psychological influence. There are a
lot of those types of studies, aren't there? Try reading some.
This is a crap statement and comparison. Many people use this sad
and stupid argument. There is not relationship between alcoholics
and people's sexual orientation- except that some may find what it
really is when they are drunk (repressed inhibition released).
Nonsense- this simply is not true. I suppose it is a waste of time
to try and tell you to understand what a study presents. Most of
what you cite does not extrapolate anything, you do.
If people in general would stop using irrational position to oppress
other's and leave our private lives to ourselves, I would have no
support for laws and rules to protect people form this. But we need
only look at post such as yours to see that they lack rational
thought and intelligent outlooks.
| 5 |
3,121 | ....
Thanks for posting the references. I do not normally read t.p.m.,
and I posted my request for references because Jim's article
was cross-posted to soc.culture.jewish. Allegations of Jewish
disrespect for the objects and buildings of other religions are
one of antisemitic stereotypes that permeate western culture, and
rumors of church and Host desacration probably caused more pogroms
than blood libel. The stereotypes that pervade our culture create
cognitive illusions that reify those stereotypes. Therefore any
claim that appears to reify a stereotype should be treated by
decent people with utmost suspicion until and unless documented.
If such a claim is cross-posted to a news group in which it has
not been documented before, such as s.c.j, a reference should be
given the first time it appears. Now that the claim has been
documented, I regard the whole episode as disgusting and
shameful. Especially so because the official who failed to
provide proper temporary facilities for the evicted Jordanians
was probably Jewish, and as a Jew I know that he should have
known better. | 5 |
3,404 |
Since Facts and Myths doesn't even know where Deir Yassin was,
why should we pay any attention to the rest of what it says?
This account from Eric Silver is the only valid point that M&F makes.
You can find it together with other evidence and analysis in
Silver's biography of Begin. Also in Silver's book you will find
documentary evidence that nearly everything else in M&F's account
is pure bullshit.
This is pretty disgusting. The Guardian was told of one or two
feeble old men who dressed in women's clothing in a pathetic
attempt to escape death. See Silver's book. | 5 |
7,336 | 5 | |
3,725 |
I don't know this specific ratio, but I do have an earlier post that says
a gun is 33 times more likely to defend someone (including the times where
the gun isn't fired, just scares the perpetrator away) than it is to kill
someone. (including self defense) The post is kind of long, but I'll be
glad to dig it up and email it to anyone who asks.
Doug Holland
-- | 5 |
2,064 |
Well, -I've- been reading t.p.m. for a while and here is what I saw
YOU write:
>For balance, perhaps you should mention the mosques in Jerusalem that
>were razed after the Israeli victory in 1967. An eye for an eye, I guess.
Your statment clearly tries to "balance" Arab atrocities by noting a
single incident by the Israelis in war-time at their most holy site.
You even characterize it as "an eye for an eye".
>That would be false. If you read your history, you will learn that
>right after the 1967 war, the victorious Israelis decided to raze a
>section of the newly captured East Jerusalem, near the Wailing Wall.
>It is in this section that mosques were razed.
so now you have to find some source that notes that more than 1 mosque
was razed. You then followed it with:
>This episode is an example of a good government running amok with
>newly acquired power.
Really? Do you still feel that Israelis are comparable in the running
amok with power with, say, the Iraqis? Your "eye for an eye"
comparisons don't match the realities that most of us are familiar
with.
This happened to be during a war! And a fierce and mighty war it was,
too. Would you say that the Jordanians "indiscriminately shot up
ancient structures as is their custom" in describing bullet holes in
the walls of the city? This was war! It was certainly not any "eye
for an eye" characterstic. Israelis do not harbor the same feelings
of revenge as the Arabs generally do. This is one of the reasons that
the Peace Now movement exists in Israel and nowhere else in the M.E.
| 5 |
608 |
Now you are actually claiming that 2,000,000 Muslims have been killed
in B-H???
Please substantiate this utterly ridiculous claim. | 5 |
6,689 | 5 | |
6,138 | Turkish Historical Revision <9305111942@zuma.UUCP> via dotage sera@zuma.UUCP
(Serdar Argic) responded to article <1sn5f5INNkh6@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
[MP] Actually, I would like to get a compilation of these one liners,
[MP] so that I could print them out and show them to my friends over the
[MP] summer, and they can see what kind of clowns exist out there in Chicago.
Check out alt.fans.serdar.argic!
[(*] Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920,
[(*] the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated
[(*] in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
[(*] and national origin?
Muslim race? Muslim national origin? You fool!
[(*] 1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%
[(*] 2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%
[(*] 3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%
[(*] 4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,
[(*] 3,4]
NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%
[(*] 5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,
[(*] 2,3,4]
NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%
[(*] 6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
NO. Today: Muslims 100%, Armenians 0%
[(*] 7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
[(*] Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
No. The Azeri population of Armenia in 1988, after anti-Armenian pogroms in
Azerbaijan, was kicked out and sent to Azerbaijan. The remaining Muslims
stayed in Armenia!
[(*] [1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
[(*] Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York
[(*] University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
Let's check it out! On page 121 of this Turkish suggested reference we read:
"The 1927 Turkish census registered not one person of the Gregorian Armenian
faith in Van, only one in Bayazit, and twelve in Erzurum. A people who had
lived in eastern Anatolia since before recorded history were simply gone."
[(*] [2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
[(*] 1985.
Let's check it out, but first of all the complete title of this reference
includes the words "1830-1914". Thus such a reference cannot support the
above claimed garbage! However, since this is a Turkish suggested reference,
on pages 51 and on Table I2-B it states there were 2.4 million Armenians in
Turkey from 1844-1856. I guess they "were simply gone" after WWI!
[(*] [3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
[(*] University of California Press (Berkeley and
[(*] Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.
Let's check it out! On page 48 of this Turkish-suggested reference, under
sub-title, "Deportation and Massacre of Turkish Armenians" it states:
"Several authors assert that Armenian resistance at Van constituted a key
factor in the Turkish evacuation of Persia and motivated the Ittihadist
[Young Turk] leaders to annihilate the Turkish Armenians. The question of
responsibility for the massacres or deportation of nearly all Ottoman
Armenians has evolved into a polemic. Hundreds of books, articles, and
documents have been published to describe the horrifying scenes of violence
and death. Many writers, such as the British Bryce and Toynbee, French Pinon,
German Lepsius, American Morganthau and Gibbons, have insisted that the
massacres were predetermined and ruthlessly executed. The have refuted the
Ottoman government's official publications and justifications by
substantiating that anti-Armenian measures were deliberated by the
Ittihadists even before the outbreak of war. The fact remains than an
estimated eight hundred thousand to over a million Armenians perished within
a few months, and several hundred thousand more succumbed in the following
years to the ravages of disease, famine, and refugee life. Unknown numbers
of women and children were converted forcibly to Islam, possessed by
Turkish men, or adopted by Moslem families."
[(*][4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies
[(*] in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey
[(*] (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of
[(*] Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University
[(*] Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
Stanford Shaw is a paid liar/revisionist for the Turkish government, and has
been exposed as a plagiarizer! For example:
Experts from an interview (in Greek) with Professor Spyros Vryonis (from NYC's
National Herald, 3/12/93) [Thanks, Mr. G.B.]
"Few people know of the problem I faced at UCLA when Professor Stanford
Shaw was due for promotion. I knew him to be Turkey's man; due to my
reading knowledge of Turkish and my seniority over him, I was a member
of the promotion committee. For that case, I sat down and read his entire
treatise "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey". It took me
three months and I found out, from volume I, that he had plagiarized
Uzun Jarsoglu, an eminent Turkish specialist on Ottoman history. Shaw
himself claimed in his introduction that his treatise was the outcome
of a 20-year search through the Ottoman Archives. Well, I went on leave
and managed to show 40% of Volume I, containing around 5000 sentences,
to be the result of plagiarism, matching each sentence with passages
from the original work. He had even reproduced the errors. So I produced a
500-pages manuscript and submitted a 60-pages report on Shaw's plagiarism.
The University, however, rejected my report and, after a closed meeting,
promoted Stanford Shaw to Distinguished Professor. I paid a price for
all this: upset by the whole process, I confronted the entire University
structure and was considered to be a chauvinist and madman. I asked for
permission to run a seminar on Shaw's book that was denied by the President
of the University. While the Center for Near Eastern Studies granted me
permission, the President was depriving me of my academic freedom. Luckily,
the Dean refused to give in and I did run the seminar, attended by more
than 150 academic people, in which I uncovered Stanford Shaw, who refused
to attend. As a punishment, the University froze all my raises."
[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24,
1915.
No chance! There was no May 24th, 1915 issue of Gochnak!
| 5 |
1,913 |
It is the Croats that were divided, at least 70,000 were left in Serbian
province of Vojvodina. It is the Muslims that were divided, 200,000
left in the region of Sanjak that now belongs to Serbia. If the Serbs
in Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina want self-determination, the same
right should be given to Croats and Muslims, and Albanians and Hungarians
in Serbia. Why should Serbia be exempted?
| 5 |
1,479 |
Well, we're not. Which goes to prove you still don't understand what
we're saying here.
I've lived through the bombing of Cambodia; My Lai; inflated body counts
in VietNam; the funding of Noreiga; Watergate; Contragate; Chappaquiddick;
Kent State; domestic spying by the CIA; Edwin Meese's Pornography
Commission; the War on Drugs; civil seizure; the MOVE disaster; the LA
disaster; and now Waco.
Do you really believe that government always does what is right?
Watch the news for the next couple of months. Watch how this whole
government-initiated debacle turns into shouting for "more gun control."
It's already started.
-- | 5 |
1,286 |
The suggestion that they Davidians committed suicide is
completely without evidence. Except for the editorials...
Please re-word. "propensity for allegedly dousing themselves".
Oh, and the survivors claim the the FBI started the burning
by accidentally igniting kerosene lanterns (remember that they'd
already cut the power), and the propane tanks. This sounds
a lot more likely than committing suicide by setting the place
afire.
--D | 5 |
3,884 |
What does Saturday Night Live have to do with anything? When they make fun
of someone they do it with a little bit of creativity and talent. You, on the
other hand, have a complete lack of creativity, talent, and verbal mechanics.
And if you think that SNL is culture, then it just shows where your intellectual
level is.
Granted.
Only in part. Let's not forget that Nixon personally authorized the
break-in of Ellsberg's psychiatrist.
Tell that to the House. That WAS the charge. Or are you going to challenge
me on that as well? Subverting the constitutional rights of citizens has
nothing to do with covering-up for Watergate. You have been proved wrong,
again. But I don't expect you to believe this since your arrogance has
replaced your reason.
Granted.
Wrong again. You forgot about Ellsberg.
This would be funny, if it weren't so sad that you actually believe this.
In his "loyalty" he allowed the people who worked for him to take the
rap, while he idly sat by and let it happen. If he REALLY was loyal to
the people who worked for them, he would have pardoned them before he
resigned.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Death to all modifiers, he declared one day, and out of Garrett Johnson
every letter that passed through his hands went every Garrett@Ingres.com
adverb and adjective. The next day he made war on articles.
The following day he blacked out everything in the letters
but "a", "an", and "the". - Joseph Heller's Catch-22 | 5 |
1,094 |
The Associated Press had an article on Monday March 1, I believe,
which quoted witnesses as describing BATF agents throwing grenades prior
to any gunfire on the part of the Davidians.
It was among the first of a crop of different, mutually exclusive
descriptions. | 5 |
7,393 |
What if.......
What if the FBI thought that tear gas would force the Davidians out;
at least the mothers and the children, so they (the FBI) did not
bother to think about the effect of tear gas on young children......
What if the FBI knew they killed several of the children by using
tear gas......(let`s assume the FBI knew via their listening devices)
What if the FBI saw fire accidently break out at one end of the
building, e.g. by an upset oil lamp.......
What if the FBI thought they could finally force the rest of the
Davidians out AND also destroy the evidence that they (the FBI) had
killed the children by starting a fire at the other end......
What if the FBI miscalculated and not many of the rest of the Davidians
made it out.......????? | 5 |
790 |
How wrong you will be. I participated in the last National March on
Washington (MOW) for LesGayBi rights (Oct 11, 1987) - with a turnout of
about 750,000 people - and we didn't have alot pissing us off at the time.
The big issue was the AIDS crisis, but we weren't being slapped around
quite as bad as we are now. This time its AIDS, and Equal Rights, and
the Military Squabble. And this MOW has been in the planning for YEARS
whereas the last one was pulled together in a relatively short time. The
last MOW was the largest ever on D.C. and you can bet we are going to
exceed that by a long shot. I truly believe we will exceed the 1.0
million goal the MOW committee has always had set for this event. | 5 |
6,297 |
Well, for one thing most, if not all the Dividians (depending on whether
they could show they acted in self-defense and there were no illegal
weapons), could have gone on with their life as they were living it.
No one was forcing them to give up their religion or even their
legal weapons. The Dividians had survived a change in leadership
before so even if Koresch himself would have been convicted and
sent to jail, they still could have carried on.
I don't think the Dividians were insane, but I don't see a reason
for mass suicide (if the fire was intentional set by some of the
Dividians.) We also don't know that, if the fire was intentionally
set from inside, was it a generally know plan or was this something
only an inner circle knew about, or was it something two or three
felt they had to do with or without Koresch's knowledge/blessing, etc.?
I don't know much about Masada. Were some people throwing others over?
Did mothers jump over with their babies in their arms? | 5 |
4,365 |
[HAMID] Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been
[HAMID] killed by Israel during these 44 HAPPY YEAR?
Does anybody know how many Jews, Arabs, Christians and others have died
in terrorist attacks and wars over these 45 years due to Arab rhetoric and
rejectionism? The number is probably close to 100,000 at least.
All these lives wasted because the ARABS did not accept the PARTITION PLAN
in 1947.
Tsiel | 5 |
6,290 | Some articles on the topic:
RTw 12/23 0859 GULF ARABS DEMAND IRAN WITHDRAWAL FROM ISLANDS
(Eds: updates with end of summit details, quotes)
By Youssef Azmeh
ABU DHABI, Dec 23, Reuter - Gulf Arab states, emerging from a summit
that restored
their unity after almost three months of crisis, piled pressure on Iran
on Wednesday to
reverse its virtual annexation of a strategic Gulf island.
They issued a statement after a three-day Gulf Cooperation Council
summit saying Iran
had to show proof of its good neighbourly intentions by rescinding
measures that "rocked
Gulf stability and security."
The leaders avoided the anti-Iranian rhetoric of recent statements
by Egypt, which
engineered a last minute settlement of a border row between Saudi Arabia
and Qatar that
allowed all members to attend the summit.
Egypt said its fears about Iranian intentions in the region and
Tehran's alleged
encouragement of Moslem fundamentalist unrest were largely behind
President Hosni
Mubarak's mediation.
The GCC statement stressed that developing relations between the
Gulf Arab states and
Iran "is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures Iran might take
in line with its
commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of
the sovreignty and
territorial integrity of the region's states."
It denounced Iran's measures on the island of Abu Musa, which it
shares with the
United Arab Emirates, and the continued occupation of the Greater and
Lesser Tumbs
islands.
Iran earlier this year extended its control over Abu Musa beyond a
small garrison it
established there in 1971 under an agreement with the UAE emirate of Sharjah.
It has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the
island for the
UAE government. But diplomats say it continues to exercise its authority
over the whole
island, which the UAE sess as as virtual annexation.
The Tumbs were occupied by the former Shah of Iran in 1971 and the
UAE has since the
Abu Musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part
of a general
settlement.
The GCC leaders called on the U.N. to maintain sanctions against
Iraq for not fully
implementing Security Council resolutions following its 1990 invasion of
Kuwait.
They endorsed once again the "Damascus Declaration," a pact signed
with Egypt and
Syria after their troops took part in the U.S. led alliance that drove
Iraqi troops out of
Kuwait.
But delegates said the leaders were unable to agree the details of a
fund they
announced they would create at their last summit in Kuwait last year
which would have
helped Egypt's and Syria's economic development programme.
They said the leaders could not agree on a breakdown of
contributions from each state
although the total amount had been scaled down to $6 billion from the
$10 billion agreed
last year.
The fact that the leaders of all GCC states -- Saudi Arabia,
Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman and
Qatar -- attended the summit was seen as a major achievement although
their unity was only
maintained with outside help.
Most delegations were not too worried for the moment about the slow
progress of the
conservative rulers discussions on a future security structure for the
region that boasts
the bulk of global oil and gas reserves.
The leaders were unable to choose between two proposals.
One put forward by a summit committee headed by Oman's Sultan Qaboos
to create a
100,000-man rapid deployment force that could rush to defend any member
against external
aggression, such as Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.
Another was a Saudi-supported plan to expand the existing 10,000-man
"Peninsula
Shield" force which had so far played a largely symbolic role and is
commanded by a Saudi
general.
Little headway was made on plans for a reginal common market
although the summit
called for concrete proposals to be submitted to next year's summit due
to be held in
Saudi Arabia next December.
REUTER YA DYA DJG
RTw 12/23 0835 GULF LEADERS END SUMMIT
ABU DHABI, Dec 23, Reuter - Gulf Arab states ended a three-day
annual summit on
Wednesday with an appeal to Iran to end its occupation of three
strategic Gulf islands as
a condition for restoring friendly ties across the Gulf.
A joint statement issued after the summit, marked by relief over the
settlement of a
row between two Gulf Cooperation Council members, also called for
continued U.N. sanctions
against Iraq.
It said Baghdad had failed to implement key Security Council
decisions following the
expulsion of its troops from Kuwait early last year.
The summit broke no new ground on steps to achieve a Gulf common
market, but called on
officials to present a plan for common external tarrifs for all six
members to the next
summit which will be held in Saudi Arabia in December 1993.
The statement stressed that developing relations between the Gulf
Arab states and Iran
"is linked to enhacing confidence and to measures Iran might take in
line with its
commitment to the principle of good neighbourliness and the respect of
the sovreignty and
territorial integrity of the region's states."
It denounced Iran's measures on the island of Abu Musa, which it
shares with the
United Arab Emirates, and the continued occupation of the smaller
islands, the Greater and
Lesser Tumbs.
It expressed deep regret and extreme concern for the unjustified
Iranian measures
which contradict a proclaimed wish to develop relations and called on
Iran to rescind
those measures and end the occupation which it said was "shaking peace
and stability in
the area."
Iran earlier this year extended its control over Abu Musa beyond a
small garrison it
established there in 1971 under an agreement with the UAE emirate of Sharjah.
It has since rescinded orders expelling foreigners who worked on the
island for the
UAE government but diplomats in the region say that its security forces
continue to
exercise their authority over the whole island.
The UAE has seen this as virtual annexation.
The Tumbs were occupied by the former Shah of Iran in 1971 and the
UAE has since the
Abu Musa crisis erupted insisted that they have to be returned as part
of a general
settlement.
REUTER YA DYA DJG
RTw 12/26 1441 IRAN HINTS IT READY TO GO TO WAR OVER ISLANDS
(Eds: updates with SNSC statement)
NICOSIA, Dec 26, Reuter - Iran told its Gulf Arab neighbours on
Saturday it was ready
to defend militarily three disputed islands, reminding them of its
eight-year war with
Iraq.
"Our eight-year defence (in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war) has proved to
the world that
our brave nation will never hesitate to defend the sovereignty and
safeguard the
territorial integrity of Iran," Iran's Supreme National Security Council
(SNSC) said.
A meeting of the heads of the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council
voiced full support
on Wednesday for the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in its dispute with Iran
over the Gulf
islands of Abu Musa, Greater Tumb and Lesser Tumb.
The move has triggered strong Iranian criticism and warnings.
Besides the UAE, the GCC
also groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.
Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who chaired the SNSC's
meeting on
Saturday, said during his Friday prayer sermon at Tehran University:
"Iran is surely
stronger than the likes of you. To reach these islands one has to cross
a sea of blood."
The SNSC, quoted by the official Iranian news agency IRNA received
in Cyprus, also
criticised the GCC and described its support of the UAE as "irresponsible."
"No country will ever be able to covet even an inch of Iranian soil,"
said the SNSC.
Earlier on Saturday, the English language Tehran Times, believed to
be close to the
Foreign Ministry, said the UAE should be aware that Iran's
self-restraint had certain
limits.
It dismissed a UAE claim to the islands as unfounded and said a 1971
agreement to
share Abu Musa with the UAE emirate of Sharjah still applied.
"The idea of Abu Dhabi officials that Tehran would always refrain
from responding to
the blows inflicted by them was "childish," Tehran Times said.
IRNA said the newspaper was commenting on the GCC statement which
urged Iran to
reverse what it says is the annexation of Abu Musa island and to pull
out of the two other
islands.
Iran says the islands near the entrance to the Gulf have
historically belonged to it.
The dispute flared this year after Iran tightened its control over Abu Musa.
REUTER AF JCH
RTw 12/28 1011 TEHRAN PAPER WANTS IRAN REVIVE CLAIM TO BAHRAIN | 5 |
6,293 |
Cute word angst. Conveys volumes.
I'd be interested in this particular definition of "we." It's
such a fluid pronoun.
The BD were a paranoid little cult out in the middle of nowhere,
which all of a sudden had their worst paranoid fears reinforced.
Joy.
Yes, they probably should have, although how many paranoid
nuts can say they held off the feds for 51 days?
The voting booth is highly over-rated. People need to get up
off their lazy butts more than every year or every two years. Hell,
most don't even do that.
No, because "we" have decided that it doesn't make enough
difference to "us" to get up and do something. That's something,
for instance, a lot of people who go speak against gun control
bills at their local government. Dozens of "pro-gun" speakers
show up and few if any antis do, but they often win anyway.
Why? Because it doesn't matter who shows up, it matters
who's willing to scream afterwards. And it isn't that most people
give a damn one way of the other, but that they don't. Nobody
gives a damn about anybody beyond their own little worlds.
The general public's usually not even read the constitution.
And what they have learned is a distorted picture of the whole thing.
| 5 |
6,534 | Turkish Historical Revision in auto-scribal residue <9305091835@zuma.UUCP>,
sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic), posted the following:
[(*] Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape,
[(*] 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
[(*] (Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
[(*] million Muslim people)
Bull!
[(*] p. 184 (second paragraph)
[(*]
[(*] "I had received further very definite information of horrors that
[(*] had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as
[(*] I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their
[(*] treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from
[(*] Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not
[(*] be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their
[(*] troops being without discipline and not under effective control,
[(*] atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should
[(*] with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."
On page 184 in my copy of the Rawlinson book, we find following facsimile.
Note the word Armenian doesn't even appear!
184 ADVENTURES IN THE NEAR EAST
disposal for our journey, I foresaw it would have to become
our headquarters for a considerable time, and therefore went
to some trouble to make it habitable. We had a most peculiar
little locomotive, originally built in America for the Russian
Government, adapted to burn either wood or oil; one covered
truck as men's quarters; one similar, which I fitted up for my-
self and a railway officer; and also a truck to carry wood, three
cars being the utmost our small engine could pull. With this
small outfit we started, rumours of all kinds reaching us before
our departure indicating that the whole situation was rapidly
coming to a head, it being evident that the Turks were becoming~
more and more restive in the face of the inexplicable delay of
the Allies in reaching any definite decision with regard to the
future.
Travelling on this little "war-time" railway was indeed an
experience, and it was necessary to carry a "gauge," and to
test the rails with it frequently, for in many places, owing to
the sinking of the embankments and the washing away of the
ballast, the rails required rectification before we were able to
get our train over, even at a foot pace; each bridge also re-
quired elaborate examination before adventuring the train upon
it, and eventually we were obliged to carry large baulks of tim-
ber to temporarily shore up many of the bridges and culverts
whilst we passed over them.
Under these circumstances it may be imagined that our prog-
ress was by no means rapid, and as we had frequently to halt
also to replenish our supply of wood fuel, we considered we
had achieved wonders when, on the evening of the second day,
60 hours and 70 miles out from Erzeroum, we finally entered the
gorge of the mountains where we understood our worst troubles
to lie. This is the same gorge into which the road from
Erzeroum to Kars descends from the foot-hills to cross the
frontier; the railway, however, follows the main Aras River val-
ley till the frontier gorge enters it, whilst the road cuts off the
corner and joins the rail again at the frontier post of Zivin,
some 15 miles from the main valley.
Soon after entering the gorge, we were confronted by the
first serious fall of rock--about 2,000 tons having fallen from
the cliff face and entirely obliterated the railway track. Here,
therefore, we halted, and, sending our engine back, prepared to
| 5 |
1,892 |
While it may mean that in 1993, the relevant meaning comes from 1789.
Moreover, "controlled" doesn't tell you WHO's doing the controllling.
Fletcher's Political Works, pub'd in 1749, defines a "well-regulated
militia", that being the relevant phrase, as being an armed people NOT
under the control of govt. The wigged gents who argued about the
constituion used it in that way.
Feel free to provide a 1790s-era reference showing a usage other than
"individual right, not to be interfered with by govt".
Note that the first clause has a meaning - it is a restriction on
govt military power. See Scarry's University of Penn law review
article for an extended discussion. The existence of a well-regulated
militia is a necessary part of that restriction, but it is not sufficient.
-andy | 5 |
1,526 | Pete--
That was uncalled for. I'm sure Andi Beyer or whatever his name is
was a product of his environment before he came to school, and is
enjoying the mantle of THE UNIVERSITY to make his viewpoint seem
legitimate (well-reasoned). I'm at Virginia, too, and I think
maligning UVA is in poor taste, even if Beyer did slip in here.
| 5 |
1,461 | Found this in soc.culture.pakistan
Might be of interest..... am posting it without the permission of the original poster.
Hope he/she doesnt mind.
By Lance Gay, Scripps-Howard News Service
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina -- In this land of historic hatreds, a tiny
Jewish community is braving Serbian shells to repay a 50-year-old debt to
Muslims who saved Jews from the Holocaust.
Ivica Ceresnjes, president of the Jewish Community of Sarajevo, says he
and about 1,000 other Jews chose to remain in Sarajevo, rather than leave
for Israel, to keep a feeding center in the medieval old town district
running.
Ceresnjes said that was partly in gratitude to the Muslims who hid Jews during
the Nazi occupation and partly to keep intact the centuries-old presence of
Jews living in Sarajevo.
``Some with guns are defending Bosnia, but I fight in Bosnia by keeping
people alive,'' Ceresnjes said.
As a student of Balkan history, Ceresnjes said he saw this war coming and
had ready plans to evacuate children and the elderly. A year before the war
erupted here last April, Ceresnjes said the Jewish center began
stockpiling supplies, ensuring everyone had passports and arranging for
places in Israel and Europe for the evacuees.
They were so well prepared, he said, that only five days after the
shooting began the first plane left. Of about 2,000 Jews in Bosnia-
Herzegovina, he estimates half have left. Many of those who stayed behind
work in Sarajevo's downtown synagogue, which has been turned into a
wartime feeding center that has so far given away 380,000 meals.
The center, which has been shelled several times along with most of
Sarajevo, also runs a radio station, mail center and distributes food
packages sent by Jewish organizations around the world.
While Muslims and Jews are fighting each other in the Mideast, Jews here
say there's a long tradition of cooperation, inter-marriage and
tolerance between the two communities in Sarajevo that goes back to
centuries of Turkish occupation.
Sarajevo's Jews trace their ancestry back to their expulsion from Roman
Catholic Spain in 1492. The community numbered more than 14,000 before
World War II. But only 10% survived the Holocaust -- which was carried out
by the pro-Nazi Croatian Ustache in Yugoslavia. Many of the survivors were
hidden by Muslim families in Mostar.
--
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA USA
e-mail: sharon@world.std.com
----------------------------------------
Zafar.
| 5 |
3,212 |
"Personal gain": for his own monetary advantage. I don't think
anyone would dispute that he both violated his oath of office, and
abused his powers. But that's not for personal gain.
| 5 |
3,466 |
It is also so easy to blame the West for their indiffernce to
real Bosnian suffering. How about the moslem world, about 1 billion?
How about them ha? What they are doing to stop this
massacre? Why the oil rich Arab states make the Bosnian crises
a national interest of the West, especially for Europeans? We all
know they can do it over night, don't we? Blaming West and asking
why they don't put their life into danger seems to be the choice of
muslims too. I think who is sleeping is not the West. They are wide
awake. They are trying to save the face. | 5 |
1,229 |
You are somewhat close to truth. But you shouldn't forget that
nationality is a recent invention of the western europe. In the
days of the Ottoman empire, the religion was the main point of
difference between social classes. The Ottomans didn't recognize
Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Serbs... Just christians, muslims, jews...
So, for all the interested parties in the Ottoman society the
bosnian muslims were "Turks". After all, there aren't many "real"
(ethnic) Turks living even in Turkey today. Even in Europe, it's
the culture that defines the ethnicity and religion is part of
one's culture.
Can you support this? | 5 |
4,211 |
B urn
A ll
T he
F uckers
| 5 |
6,812 |
OK. Lets look into this.
According to my dictionary,
Zi-on-ism: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish
national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of
modern Israel.
Now, I do not support the establishment of nations based on religious
principles, while I support the establishment of nations based on cultural
identities.
So. Here are some questions I have to ask for anyone to answer. My point
is what someone said long time ago: In politics, like with men, it is important
to distiguish between what they say they do and what they are actually
doing.
1) My mother is Jewish (and so is my father). If I apply for the Law of
Return, do I get in as a Jew trying to return to his land, from which my
family was expelled about 2000 years ago?
2) If I go back, which nationality would my ID show?
3) If I decided to go back to the land from which my relatives had been
expelled 2000 years ago, but first I convert to any other religion, can I
apply to the law of Return as a member of the Jewish Nation or should I
apply as someone whose mother is Jewish?
4) Which nationality would show my ID in case 3)?
5) What has change in me between the day before and the day after I converted
to loose my being part of the Jewish Nation?
6) Suppose I want to get married to my current wife, who is non-Jewish in
Israel, how do I do it?
7) How would my situation change if I decided, after going back to
Israel, to convert to Islam?
Now, here is one more question. I do believe that most people in a country
do not care about politics. They just want to be left alone.
Suppose my father is Arab. Suppose he was born in Palestine, in some place
which now is part of Israel. Suppose that his father, and his grandfather as
well as 20 or 30 generations before him were born in that place.
Now suppose there is a war of independence and my father, scared by all the
fighting going on, tries to take his family to a place more secure, among
people he knows, who speak a language he understands, who worship the same
god. Now, suppose that that place is some other Arab country.
And, now suppose that the war is over and that there is a new country created
where my father used to live, and that that country is called Israel.
And, that in that country, Jews from all over the world are received. And
that people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago are recieved and
granted full-citizenship.
Should I, if I decided to go back to my father's land, where he was born as
20 or 30 generations of my family were born, have the right to go back and
ask to be recognized in the same way those who are returning after 2000
years?
Then, finally, people ask me how I would define a Jew, but that is irrelevant.
I am not talking about how I would define a Jew, but about how people in
Zionist organizations, and more important, in Israel, define a Jew.
How would those who are Zionist define a Jew?
| 5 |
1,813 | THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
___________________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release April 23, 1993
PRESS BRIEFING
BY DEE DEE MYERS
The Briefing Room
10:35 A.M. EDT
MS. MYERS: At 1:00 p.m., we're having a press
conference, Bill, in the East Room. And then Saturday the President
will leave here at roughly 8:00 a.m. and fly down to Jamestown. He
will spend the day there, overnight at Camp David.
On Sunday, it's unclear exactly what time he'll leave
Camp David and fly to Boston. He'll leave from Hagerstown. The press
plane will leave from Washington.
He will meet with some --
Q What kind of a plane is that he's taking?
MS. MYERS: That he's taking? He'll probably take a C-
20.
Q From Hagerstown?
MS. MYERS: From Hagerstown. Air Force One doesn't fly
out of Hagerstown, apparently.
Q How will the pool travel?
MS. MYERS: The pool will have to meet him ahead of
time. So I guess the pool will travel with the press plane and wait
for him at the airport. There is currently no provision -- and I'll
double-check, because there's currently no provision -- I think
that's standard operating practice.
Q The pool is not going to meet him and watch him get
on the plane at Hagerstown?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe so.
Q What time does he have to be in Boston?
MS. MYERS: He's going to meet there with a group of
citizens, mostly people who supported us during the campaign, at
around 1:30 p.m. We're still working out the final times.
Q At the airport?
MS. MYERS: No, it will be at the Boston Harbor Hotel.
And then he will also meet with some -- a youth group
that authored something called Project 21. The speech to the
publishers is actually at 3:15 p.m. It will be followed by Q&A. And
then after the speech and Q&A, he'll attend a reception with the
publishers, and then return to Washington from Boston. And that's it
for the weekend.
Q Has the President seen the report from -- or the
letter, communication from the foreign service officers; also,
obviously, the communication from Madeleine Albright? And what is
his reaction to their call on him?
MS. MYERS: Well, obviously, the letter was written to
Secretary Christopher. I believe Secretary Christopher received the
letter on Saturday. He reviewed it and met with the authors on
Monday to discuss their views. He believes it's an important part of
the policy-making process and is taking their views into account as
we go forward in the development of the Bosnia policy.
Q What is the President's reaction?
MS. MYERS: The President hasn't seen the letter. It
was something that was directed towards Secretary Christopher. In
terms of -- he hasn't seen specifically the letter, but in terms of
their concerns generally, what the President has said is that there
are a lot of options on the table now, including ones that weren't
there before. And I think he's, as is everybody, gravely concerned
about the situation in Bosnia.
Q Is he influenced by that? I mean, how does he feel
about the fact that all of the specialists in that area -- those desk
officers --
MS. MYERS: Many of the specialists in that area -- I
think that that is clearly part of the process. It's something --
their views will clearly be considered. I think Secretary
Christopher met with the group immediately to discuss their views. I
think he believes that there ought to be room for opinions and that
those opinions ought to be considered, particularly from people who
work closely on the issues.
Q What do you mean, there are options on the table
that weren't there before?
MS. MYERS: I think the President said last week that
there were options, such as lifting the arms embargo to the Bosnian
Muslims, that had been previously off the table that are now being
considered.
Q Dee Dee, in terms of those options, Madeleine
Albright is saying that potentially there could be unilateral action
by the U.S. if the Europeans did not go along. Is that on the table?
MS. MYERS: Well, I can't discuss anything that would --
any conversations that would have happened between Ambassador
Albright and the President. But I think the President has said he
would certainly -- is working with our European allies. He's had a
number of conversations with European leaders and is trying to build
some consensus there.
Q Will he reach a decision -- will he have anything
specific to say today?
MS. MYERS: No. I mean, in term of there will be no new
announcement of policy today.
Q Does your statement mean he has ruled out
unilateral action?
MS. MYERS: He's continuing to consult with our allies
at this point. He has said -- I think he's been fairly clear about
it, that the he believes that the U.S. needs to act in concert with
its allies on this.
Q On that point, does he believe that the U.S.,
though, does have built-in authority from the United Nations already
to take unilateral action?
MS. MYERS: Well, I think the U.N. Resolution 770 makes
it clear that you can act unilaterally in support of any humanitarian
relief effort. I think the broader point is that anything we do, any
options that we decide to pursue we will make sure that it is
consistent with U.N. authority, and if it's not, we'll work with our
allies to make sure that we get it.
Q Dee Dee, then how does the White House someone as
distinguished as Elie Wiesel, who says that not enough is being done
to stop the atrocities going on in Bosnia?
MS. MYERS: I think that that's why we're considering
additional options. I think that Mr. Wiesel's comments yesterday
were quite compelling. The situation in Bosnia is tragic. The
President is very concerned about it. He has -- I think President
Clinton has worked very hard to take further actions to continue to
isolate Serbia in the world community. Clearly, we're considering
other options because the President is concerned that perhaps it's
not enough.
Q In terms of what you were just talking about, it
sounds like Resolution 770 justifies unilateral action by the U.S. to
protect humanitarian --
MS. MYERS: I don't think it -- I wouldn't use the word
justify. It permits unilateral action by any country in protecting
the delivery of humanitarian relief. But I think that's just an
explanation of the resolution. I think any action that we take will
be consistent with U.N. resolutions or we'll work with our allies to
make sure that it is permissible or we'll get further action.
Q The President and other officials have ruled out
unilateral U.S. action in Bosnia in the past. You're declining to do
that this morning.
MS. MYERS: No, I said the President has said repeatedly
that he wants to act in concert with our allies on this.
Q That doesn't mean that he won't act alone, which
has been said before explicitly.
MS. MYERS: I don't mean to imply a change in policy.
The President has said all along that he wants to act in concert with
our allies on this.
Q One other little question. Did he know about this
letter from the foreign service officers before it hit the papers?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe so. Secretary Christopher
-- they may have had a private conversation about it. The President
has not seen it.
Q They met on Monday, right? Christopher met --
surely, he must have brought that up --
MS. MYERS: Again, they may have talked privately about
it, but --
Q Dee Dee, what you're saying is that the Albright
recommendation has been rejected, is that correct?
MS. MYERS: No, I didn't say that at all. I said I
won't -- I said I wouldn't comment on any conversations or
communications.
Q She's advocating unilateral action and you're
saying, in effect, that we will not take unilateral action.
MS. MYERS: I am not confirming anything that Madeleine
Albright may or may not have recommended.
Q Given the sometimes delicate, complicated and
frustrating nature of negotiations with the allies on this issue,
does the President find this kind of letter from 12 foreign service
officers of the State Department helpful to that process, hurtful to
that?
MS. MYERS: I think that their views are obviously being
considered. The Secretary received that memo on Saturday and two
days later he met with them in order to have a more thorough airing
of their views, of the basis for their views, to discuss in greater
detail the options that they had presented in the letter.
Q Doesn't it put some kind of pressure on --
additional pressure on him now from within his own administration to
act regardless of what the allies may or may not do?
MS. MYERS: I think clearly there's a broad policy
review underway now. And the President and his advisors are
considering a number of options, including some of those outlined in
the letter from the folks over at the State Department. Now, no
decisions have been made on that yet, but I think that there is a
through review underway, and that their opinions are being very
seriously considered.
Q If I can just follow up, I guess what I'm looking
for is what was his reaction to this letter? Did he say, good, this
bolsters my position? Or did he say, damn, this is just what I don't
need right now?
MS. MYERS: I think he said this helps contribute
substantively to the debate. It's important that all views be
considered and aired thoroughly, that before he makes a decision he
wants to have the best possible advice and information possible, and
this, I think in many ways, furthers that goal.
Q So internal advice to a Cabinet official or the
President -- it's all open now, and you wouldn't take any umbrage or
say that they were out of line?
MS. MYERS: I think that the fact that Secretary
Christopher met with them to discuss their views and make sure they
had an opportunity to have a more complete conversation about it is
conclusive evidence that their views are welcome.
Q Does the policy review include what Madeleine
Albright has suggested, and what Joe Biden and others have suggested,
which is that the previous U.N. resolutions authorize unilateral
action -- military action -- for the delivery of humanitarian --
MS. MYERS: I think all options are on the table.
Q The unilateral option is on the table?
MS. MYERS: I think all options are on the table.
Q We've had two different --
Q Isn't that a change, Dee Dee?
Q That would be a change of policy.
Q Particularly if it includes ground troops, which
has been specifically ruled out.
MS. MYERS: I think the President has been -- well, no.
I don't -- that is not --
Q Are you talking about all options?
MS. MYERS: All options -- I think the President has
been fairly clear about that. So let me just review again what he
has said. He has said that -- the President has said all options are
on the table, with the exception of the introduction of ground
troops, which he has never suggested. He has ruled that out from the
beginning.
Q Hasn't he ruled out unilateral action of any sort?
MS. MYERS: He has said that he doesn't believe the U.S.
can solve the problems in the former Yugoslavia by itself. I think
that there are a number of very complicated options on the table
right now. I don't think that -- again, I don't want to comment on
specific options that are being considered other than in the broad
categories that we've already said -- things like lifting the arms
embargo against the Bosnian Muslims, things that I think we've talked
about in broad terms. This is a very complicated situation. The
options being presented and considered are very complicated.
Q Air strikes on the table?
MS. MYERS: Again, I think that's been fairly clearly
pointed out that that's something that's being discussed.
Q Dee Dee, are ground troops on the --
MS. MYERS: No, ground troops are not being considered.
Q You said there was not going to be -- you said you
were not announcing a change of policy. Then you said everything is
on the table. We're confused. Are unilateral actions on the table?
MS. MYERS: All I can tell you is what the President has
said -- that he doesn't believe -- that he wants to act in concert
with the allies on this.
Q Wants to, but he's willing to -- I mean, if they
don't go along --
MS. MYERS: He's continuing to consult with our allies
on this. He's continuing to have discussions. He's continuing to
press them for further action. And I think that's clear. The
conversation is ongoing. We're going to continue to work with them
to find the best possible solution and next step on this.
Q Dee Dee, the allies have taken the position that to
conduct any kind of air strikes in Bosnia would have the opposite
effect of ensuring the delivery of humanitarian aid; that they feel
that their troops on the ground monitoring the delivery of that aid
would become vulnerable and the Bosnians --
MS. MYERS: I'm not sure that's the consistent -- I
mean, I'm not sure who you're referring to.
Q The British and the French.
Q Yes, the British and French. They've taken the
position that the delivery of humanitarian aid would be jeopardized
by any kind of air strikes against the Bosnian military. Does the
U.S. believe differently from that?
MS. MYERS: The President has had conversations with
both Mitterrand and Major, as you know. I think that there is a
thorough review of policy going on in those countries as well. And I
don't want to comment on the nature of the President's discussions
other than to say that he's continuing to consult with our allies as
we move forward and he's continuing to press them for further action.
And I think that process is ongoing.
Q the other day voted against any military
intervention yesterday. Does the President regard that as the end of
the line or does he does still hold out some possibility of
unilateral action? The allies have been very, very plain that they
do not want to do anything.
MS. MYERS: The consultations are ongoing. That's all I
can tell you at this point.
Q Are you saying that there won't be any announcement
on Bosnia today in the press conference?
MS. MYERS: No, that is not the intention of the press
conference.
Q What is the intention?
MS. MYERS: It's an opportunity to take questions. He
may have a brief -- I'm sure he'll have a brief opening statement,
but it is not an opportunity to outline a new policy on Bosnia. That
will not happen.
Q Can you tell us what the subject of the opening
statement is?
MS. MYERS: It's sort of a general statement of where we
are.
Q After the first hundred days, you mean?
MS. MYERS: It's not a long statement. I mean, this is
just generally. Don't look for any major policy pronouncements.
Q Do you know what the opening statement is?
MS. MYERS: But it's -- perhaps later today I'll be able
to tell you with more certainty -- I think that's still under review.
But the overriding purpose of this -- it's not a mystery; it's not
meant to be. It's just to take questions.
Q It would be helpful to know whether -- what the
opening statement is on.
MS. MYERS: Since the major purpose here is just to take
questions, it's not completely resolved yet.
Q Dee Dee, one policy that was expected last week and
that the White House, you and George seemed to indicate we might get,
would be an AIDS czar. Will he announce that today? And what's the
delay on that?
MS. MYERS: I don't think we meant to imply -- I think
we said it would happen soon. I don't think we meant to imply with
any certainty that it would be this week. It is coming soon. I
don't anticipate that happening today.
Q What's the delay? Isn't this the perfect time to
announce an AIDS czar?
MS. MYERS: I don't know that it's a delay. I think the
process is ongoing to find the best possible person and to go through
the necessary background checks, and to make sure that we've crossed
the t's and dotted the i's before we make an announcement.
Q Dee Dee, what are Zoe Baird's qualifications for
the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board? And why wasn't her
appointment announced here?
MS. MYERS: The qualifications -- I don't know if
there's a specific list; I'll have to check and see. I think there
are a number of people there on the board with different backgrounds.
Many of them have long histories in intelligence or other government
service. I think there's a broad variety of views across political
spectrum and across backgrounds that are represented there. We never
made a formal announcement other than the Chairman of the Board,
which is Admiral William Crowe.
Q Why would he appoint her, though, if the American
people and many in the Senate rejected her for another government
job?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe that the American people
ever had -- voted on her. And I certainly -- she was never rejected
in the Senate. She never went up there for a hearing. But the
President believes she's a very competent person. He's said that --
Zoe Baird -- do you understand what the question is? Zoe Baird is on
the President's Foreign Intelligence --
Q You said she never went up there for a hearing?
Q Her nomination was withdrawn after public outrage
over violating federal laws?
MS. MYERS: Right, she never -- she was never -- but you
said she was rejected by the Senate. I was just simply trying to
point out that she was never voted on by the Senate.
Q So you don't think that is any problem?
MS. MYERS: I don't think there's any problem.
Q She has been appointed to this board, is that a
fact?
MS. MYERS: Yes.
Q Does she need confirmation for this? Does she need
confirmation to be a member of the --
MS. MYERS: No. It's a presidential appointment.
Q Usually, announcements are made here at the White
House. Was there a decision not to announce her publicly?
MS. MYERS: We didn't make an announcement. People who
asked were told who the members of the board were. We didn't make
an official announcement. If anybody's interested in that we can
certainly put out the list of names.
Q I'd like to know.
Q Don't such board members -- don't you normally as a
matter of -- routinely put out releases on all these boards and
presidential appointment regardless of their dimension?
MS. MYERS: Not always. But, again, I'm happy to put
this out.
Q Isn't that the standard practice?
Q That was past practice.
MS. MYERS: Again, I'm happy to put it out. We'll put
out a list of the members of the board today.
Q Dee Dee, I don't want to try to fail to let you get
out of this swamp but -- (laughter) -- all I really want to know is
hasn't it been the practice in this administration for such
announcements to be made routinely?
MS. MYERS: I think generally but not always. And we're
happy to put that out today.
Q What is the board, what is her title, what is the
size of the board?
MS. MYERS: There is roughly a dozen members on the
board. It is a civilian board, although their are some, obviously,
retired military personnel on the board that provide input into
intelligence policy for the President. Again, the chairman of that
board is Admiral William Crowe.
Q And did he recommend Baird?
Q What's the name of the board?
MS. MYERS: It's the President's Foreign Intelligence
Advisory Board, PFIAB.
Q What's her qualification -- that she had employed
an illegal alien? Is that -- (laughter) --
MS. MYERS: Do you want an answer to the question or you
just want to make a joke?
Q Let me phrase it another way. Why shouldn't this
appointment be viewed as a pay-back for the difficulty she had a
couple of months ago?
MS. MYERS: Because it's not.
Q What's her experience in foreign intelligence?
MS. MYERS: She's an experienced attorney, someone who
the President believes is very competent and qualified. And I think
part of the mission of this board is to provide civilian input. Not
everybody on the board is supposed to be an intelligence expert; that
is not the board's mission. It is to provide civilian input for the
President as he makes decisions regarding intelligence matters. He
believes she's very qualified, very competent person, enormously
talented and has said that throughout.
Q Is this just a figment of my overactive
imagination, or was there discussion early on about abolishing the
President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board?
MS. MYERS: I don't think so. On December 24th, when he
announced all of his foreign policy advisors he announced that he
would -- had appointed Admiral Crowe as the head of the board. So I
don't believe there's ever been any --
Q Earlier than that, during the transition.
MS. MYERS: No, I don't believe so. It was announced,
again, on December 24th. Admiral Crowe couldn't be there, but it was
announced.
Q Are members paid?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe so, but I'll double-check.
Q On another subject, on Waco, how do you explain the
discrepancy between the federal reports of the autopsies of the
bodies that are coming out of Waco and the state? I guess it's the
Texas Ranger reports.
MS. MYERS: Most of the information is coming -- the
federal information is coming from the site. Clearly, there's been
some discrepancies and the Justice Department is looking into it.
Officials in the Justice Department were told, I believe the day
before yesterday, that there were several bodies found with bullet
holes. I think there's some discrepancy about that, and the Justice
Department is looking into it.
Q Is the President going to get involved in trying to
sort out what seems to be becoming a jurisdictional morass down
there, with some people withdrawing, others saying they're in charge,
but others -- Justice, FBI, Texas Rangers -- all grabbing a piece of
this?
MS. MYERS: I don't know that he's going to try to
mediate the dispute. I mean, I'll let you know if there's anything
he intends to do about it. But as you know, there are several levels
of investigation ongoing, and we're hopeful that they can work
together.
Q Is there any one agency or official down there in
charge of everything?
MS. MYERS: I don't know. I'll have to get back to you
on that.
Q What is the subject matter of Sunday's speech?
MS. MYERS: It's going to be fairly general. I don't
think it's going to be any specific announcements. I think it's
going to be sort of a --
Q Does he have a topic that he's going to talk about?
MS. MYERS: We're still working on it. But I wouldn't
look for any announcements of, like, the drug czar or something like
that.
Q Is it sort of a 100 days speech, sort of "my
excellent adventure for 100 days"? (Laughter.)
MS. MYERS: Not exactly, but I think he'll take a little
bit broader look about what's happened in the last --
Q Foreign, domestic?
MS. MYERS: A little bit of both, but I think a lot of
domestic.
Q And overview.
MS. MYERS: Yes, more of an overview than a specific
policy announcement.
Q Has there been an agreement yet on a forum by which
the President will address the gay rights march on Sunday?
MS. MYERS: It will be a letter read to the crowd by
Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi.
Q Is that available?
MS. MYERS: Not yet, but it will be. Sure.
Q Are you going to put it out here or --
MS. MYERS: We'll probably put it out here on Sunday.
Q Travel next week?
MS. MYERS: Unclear.
Q What was the question?
Q Likely?
MS. MYERS: I don't --
Q Likely? Possible?
MS. MYERS: Possible.
Q What's possible?
MS. MYERS: Travel.
Q George mentioned yesterday campaign finance reform
and national service legislative proposals next week. Do you have
days yet for them?
MS. MYERS: Not yet.
Q Can you tell us which order?
MS. MYERS: Campaign finance reform first; national
service later in the week.
Q Is there any coverage tomorrow in Williamsburg?
MS. MYERS: No.
Q And any report in the aftermath of the day?
MS. MYERS: Any readout from the day?
Q Readout.
MS. MYERS: It's possible. Jeff Eller will be down
there. I think he can go through what the President did during the
day. We don't expect any photo op or anything, other than departure
here in the morning.
Q Dee Dee, the President has not made a regular
practice, as some of his predecessors have, of going to Camp David.
In fact, he's been there -- what -- once or twice?
MS. MYERS: Twice.
Q Why this weekend?
MS. MYERS: He went two weekends ago, as you know, on
the way home from his father-in-law's funeral. I think that they
found it to be a good experience and a nice way for them to spend
some time together as a family. And this is just an opportunity to
do the same.
Q There's no march there.
Q It has nothing to do with the march here?
MS. MYERS: No.
Q Since he's going to be in town Sunday morning now
instead of in Jamestown, have you thought about him making a quick
pass-by, fly-over -- (laughter) --
MS. MYERS: He'll fly straight to Boston.
Q Flying straight did you say? (Laughter.)
Q George took a question yesterday on Waco. The
President had said on Tuesday in the Rose Garden that there was a
minor disagreement on tactics between the military advisors and the
FBI. And the question was whether you knew exactly what that was and
whether it related to the use of the particular kind of tear gas. Do
you have an answer on that?
MS. MYERS: I don't. I'll check.
THE PRESS: Thank you. | 5 |
7,504 | I just heard on CNN that the Texas Rangers found an M60 machine gun
in the BD compound Rubble. The newscaster called this a new hi-tech
military weapon! HA HA!! I would bet that it is that Rock Armory
M60 semi-auto, or that it was leagally owned and the tax was paid.
What year was the M60 patented? | 5 |
5,406 |
Vocabulary test: Please define the following words:
a) contradictory
b) ambiguous | 5 |
6,226 |
lightly off track, but still relevant: why all the crying
over the children? I know we are hardwired to consider
the future of the race, and comapssionate people are concerned
for all children; but so what?
For the Branch Davidians, the options were to die or
submit to Evil[tm] - and have their children's very
souls lost due to the brain washing of the Ungodly
State. (to put this in terms the 'average' netter might
grasp: they considered it the equivalent of putting
Jesse Helms in charge of NEA _and_ MTV.)
And remembering that in 1983 the Supreme Court Struck Down
Freedom of Conscience (IRS vs Bob Jones et al.):
Who's next?
Is your religion / belief system Government Approved?
Jim JOnes had won numerous awards from the state before
he moved to Guiana? Obviously state regulation would have
stopped that tragedy too.
chus
pyotr
p.s. The Mormons weren't always Saints, but they did go a long
way to be left alone. Always a ThoughtCrime in any ProperState.
| 5 |
161 |
What a dope! There is no value for Mohammed Elabdellaoui to be here
at a Western University. Third-worldist and Islamic brain-rot has
made it impossible for him to acquire and analyze facts appropriately.
The history of the efforts of the Mufti of Jerusalem to serve the
Nazis in the South Balkans and set up Muslim SS Divisions is
well-documented. In general, Nazism and the leader-principle
resonated well among Muslim peoples. Khomeini's concept of the faqih
is a recent example of such resonance. In fact, totalitarianism is
etymologically a reasonable translation Islam.
To be fair, the Mufti did not succeed in getting large numbers of
Muslims to join the SS. But the rather small Muslim SS unit did
manage to commit attrocities disproportionate to it size. There were
also Muslim people who were less than enthusiastic about the attempt
of Muslim leaders to entice Muslim people to serve the Nazi cause
actively. And the Turkish government ignored practically all Nazi
overtures even though an alliance with the Nazis against the Soviet
government would have made a great deal of tactical sense.
Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in
Yes, the typical primitive Muslim psychopathological psychotic
behavior upon hearing or reading a disagreeable fact -- start whining
about the Jews. What a jerk.
You should go back to your mindlessly stupid 3rd world country. Your
brain has no business in a civilized first world country. | 5 |
2,856 |
And this is just the beginning. Fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government will
not get away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, and 204,000
Azeri people. Your criminal grandparents committed unheard-of crimes,
resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism, organized massacres,
poured petrol over babies and burned them, raped women and girls in front
of their parents who were bound hand and foot, took girls from their
mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate.
And today, they put Azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other
nation had ever known in history.
Your fascist grandparents admitted their unspeakable crimes then.
Why deny them now? Now the genocide of the truth by the criminal/Nazi
Armenians? Not a chance.
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
"Foreword:"
"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque,
the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border
of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked
Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and
the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes,
I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of
those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins."
p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
p. 15 (second paragraph).
"The Tartars were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages
and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of
their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley
to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following
the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt
desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains.
Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized."
"I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while
holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and
treated them as inferiors. The fact that the Russians looked down upon all
Armenians in much the same way as Armenians regarded Tartars, far from proving
a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified
an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility."
p. 20 (second paragraph).
"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great
fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."
p. 109 (second paragraph).
"As things were, the members of the Dashnack Party were without administrative
experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself
incompetent to rule by legitimate means.
The members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and
outside the law. When they became a legally instituted, recognized governing
body with the destiny of Armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to
do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their
fight against the Russian and Turkish Governments in their outlaw days.
The outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was,
as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. A man evoking
the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and
condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. The method
of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back
of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of
those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became
a common way of paying debts."
p. 203 (first paragraph).
"A soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the Tartar. I saw the
point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...Another soldier seized a rock
and pounded the Tartar's head with it... The Armenian who had bayoneted him
sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the Tartar's body, and, raising
it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in Russian, 'Slodkey!
Slodkey!' (Sweet.)"
p. 203 (second paragraph).
"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the
ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
dead."
p. 204 (first paragraph).
"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
year old."
p. 118.
"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart
jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging
them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the
carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms.
Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they
sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot.
Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading
oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians
concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and
scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety.
This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by
barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene....
That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted
and completely destroyed."
p. 192.
"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the
retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered
into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores
that had been left by the Turks."
p. 193.
"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages
were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country."
p. 195.
"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order
of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians."
p. 218. (First and second paragraphs)
"Russian troops did terrible things in the Turkish villages...We Armenians
did not spare the Tartars....If persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners,
the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace
actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.
I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."
p. 133 (first paragraph)
"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."
p. 19 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same
fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."
p. 22 (second paragraph)
"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
...Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
in Russia was suppressed."
p. 97 (third paragraph)
"Within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible
government of Armenians by Armenians had been established in Turkish
Armenia in armed opposition to the Turkish Government. This secret
government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called
'Mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees."
p. 98 (first paragraph)
"The Dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the Turkish
Government."
p. 98 (third paragraph)
"...the Dashnacks engineered a general revolt of Armenians in Turkish
Armenia under the mistaken belief that European nations would intervene
and secure independence for Turkish Armenia."
p. 99 (second paragraph)
"The Dashnacks were fanatics."
p. 99 (third paragraph)
"The Dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their
revolutionary activities into the Russian province. They instituted
a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing
contributions to the party funds from rich Armenians. A wealthy
man would be assessed a stipulated sum. Refusal to pay brought upon
him a sentence of death.
Every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without
question. If a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to
select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the
'mauserists' of the party."
p. 130 (first paragraph)
"...in moments of victory against Turks and Kurds or Tartars, they
[Armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance."
p. 130 (third paragraph)
"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of
the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the
Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian
advance."
p. 159 (second paragraph)
"I made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. I made balls
for it. With my cannon the Armenians could knock down any of the Tartar
houses and so they were able to drive the Tartars out."
p. 181 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar villages were in ruins."
p. 189 (third paragraph)
"The dead Tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his
beard still setaceous and now crimsoned."
Serdar Argic | 5 |
6,909 |
Actually, this strife in Yugoslavia goes back a long way. Bosinan Muslims,
in collaboration with the Nazis, did to Serbians after the first world
war what Serbs are doing to Muslims now. This is not a fresh case of
ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga
of intense mutual hatred, destruction,... Not taking sides in this
perpetual war does not amount to religious bigotry. It could just
be helplessness with regards to bringing peace to a region that does
not even know the meaning of the word.
Satya Prabhakar | 5 |
1,981 | OK... quick scenario... you're at home, not bothering anybody... next thing you
know, somebody comes crashing in the upstairs window and you hear an explosion.
You see that this individual has a submachinegun, and that more similarly armed
individuals are rushing your front door. Will you a) defend yourself and family
against this attack b) realize "oh, only the BATF would enter like that, so I
better surrender" or c) roll over and let whoever is attacking your home do
what they would like? You have chosen a), and discover that the people you
defended yourself against are federal agents, who now are camped outside your
door waiting for you to surrender. You have learned that they intend to
charge you with murder, and are further defaming your name, while claiming that
you can safely surrender at any time. Then they start using psychological
warfare techniques against you, while still claiming that you can safely give up
and will receive a fair trial. Some weeks into this standoff, you are still
holding out, when they begin a new ploy to induce your surrender, namely using
tear gas to annoy you, and ramming your home with tanks. Yet they claim that
you can safely surrender at any time. While you patiently wait out this latest
round of attacks, your house catches fire and the bales of hay you were using as
cover spread the fire rapidly through the house, and you try to escape through
the fortifications you had raised for your own defense and the rubble created
by the tanks. Only 9 of your followers make it.
I am not claiming that the above scenario is accurate. I am disagreeing with
the notion that it is their own fault for dying because they refused to
surrender to agents of the Federal government after another federal agency
committed an armed assault of their home on the basis of a flimsily concocted
search warrant.
Look at how the Texas Rangers view the BATF. Look at the FBI statements
regarding the BATF actions. From all apparent sources, the FBI blundered
trying to clean up the mess made by the BATF, resulting in an accidental fire
which killed most of the BD's who were still in the compound, and are now
playing CYA. The BATF committed an illegal assault, obtained the use of
Texas NG resources with fabricated allegations, and compounded their abuses
by accusing the BD's of crimes outside their jurisdiction once they had been
held off in their assault.
| 5 |
4,363 |
[massive dan blather mercifully deleted.]
Last time I checked, "amassing an arsenal" and practicing any kind of
religion were mentioned in passing in the Bill of Rights. Guess it's
OK with you if we just brush 'em aside in order to justify killing
a bunch of religious nutcakes, eh?
Of all the idiots I run into in daily life, Dan, your type scare me the
most. You'll accept expediency and a coward's safety over any belief
just as long as the government tells you to. You assume that anyone who
doesn't comform to your beliefs and ways of thinking are wrong and
therefore bad. Worse, you seem to accept without question what the
government says is wrong to be wrong.
David Koresh's religion was not mine but then again, neither are the baptists,
methodists, catholics or any of the rest of the corporate religions. BUT
even though Koresh's, the Baptists, the methodists, etc, don't believe
the same way I do, I recognize that their religions are equally valid
to mine and more importantly are equally protected under the 1st Amendment.
You see, I'm not that much different than Koresh and I suspect many others
fit the same catagory. I read the Bible many times and as I learned
from it, I discovered that a lot of what corporate religions practice
just isn't justified by MY interpretation of the Bible. Therefore I go
my own way. So did Koresh. And neither you nor I nor anyone else,
either individually or collectively as the great socialist "we" has ANY
RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell me or you or Koresh that our religions are wrong.
You seem to think that it would have been oh so easy for the Davidians to
just forsake everything they believed in and walk out of their compound
in order to "save themselves". Think (if you're capable) for a moment
about some belief you hold dearest. Would you abandon that belief if
suddenly told to do so by the government? If you would do so you are
beneath contempt. Let's assume you have a belief that you hold dear
enough to commit your life to. Do you think it would be the correct
course of action for your government to initiate actions specifically
designed to force you to make that "forsake or die" decision?
The "forsake or die" option is exactly what the government forced on the
Davidians the day the first wave of black-clad stormtroopers fired that
first shot and tossed that first grenade. The FBI clenched it on Day 51
when they sent in heavy armor against 80-some-odd men, women and
children holed up in a rickety old building and armed with small arms. The
people who stayed, who held to their beliefs over personal safety, whose
individual personal honors demanded they die rather than submit, who
believed that the Bill of Rights meant exactly what it says, to those
people go my deepest respect, regardless of their religion. People like
you who blithely blow off the murder of 80 people with "well they could
have come out" get my most scornful contempt. I'd spit in your face
were there not a network between us. You're not worth the ashes of
those people who burned.
John | 5 |
1,278 |
The Jerusalem Post is only a small part of the Israeli media ( One
that caters to outsiders for the most part, anyways).
If you never read Ha'aretz, Maariv, or other Hebrew langauge papers
, or at least seen some of their articles translated, you are not
really getting the Israeli media.
Inlcuding some of the left-leaning ones?
A -6 to a -10? Is that why stations such as PBS have run shows which
do not depict the Israeli standpoint at all?
IS that why the Intifada got more coverage in 1987 and 1988 than did
Saddamn gassing Kurds by the thousands?
I am from Montreal. I read the Suburban. Did they ever advocate the
Kahane stupidity of expelling the Arabs? Are they racist?
The Suburban has some columnists that explain the Israeli standpoint.
They are nothing like Kahane. IN any case, the Suburban is a paper
with a minor local distribution and no influence.
So what source is the closest thing to a zero?
| 5 |
429 |
The Stacy Koon-Lawrence Powell defense! The decisions of Janet
Reno and Bill Clinton in this affair are essentially the moral
equivalents of Stacy Koon's. Reno and Clinton have the advantage
in that they investigate themselves. | 5 |
6,327 | speaking of the sick bastard, i noticed he attends Kent State University.
i guess we have come full circle here. Someone from Kent favoring excessive
force by the govenment to subdue polically incorrect thinking. | 5 |
4,333 | Yes, I want to read such a article.
| 5 |
1,604 | wrote in response to article <30975@galaxy.ucr.edu>, raffi@watnxt08.ucr.edu
[IC] There are some Armenians here, in the USA.
[IC] In fact, there are some areas where Armenians are majority.
[IC] Suppose, a large group of people of one of such area decides,
[IC] that the US "government is not representing their interests, and vote for
[IC] seperation" from the USA.
The Armenians you refer to have chosen to come to the United States lawfully
and peacefully. However, if Armenians invade the United States and force
Americans to either flee or become Armenians, it will not succeed. Similarly,
the Armenians of Karabakh are being forced by Azerbaijan to either become
Azeris or leave, and it also will not succeed, as has been demonstrated.
Karabakh, irrespective of its geographic position situated technically within
the Stalin-prepared borders of Azerbaijan, has been long oppressed and
eventually was invaded in 1991 by Azeri OMON and Soviet forces, resulting in
the northern third of this Armenian area being depopulated of Armenians. The
Armenians have been fighting back ever since.
Clearly, you feel it rather ridiculous for Armenians, of let's say Glendale,
California, to engage in an independence movement for a free and independent
Glendale. Similarly, the Azerbaijanis are engaging in a losing attempt at
claiming sovereignty over the land and people of Karabakh, who have lived
continuously in Karabakh a thousand years before the first Central Asian
invaders ever stepped foot in the Caucasus.
[IC] Should they get it?
[IC] And should the UN enforce their will?
[IC] And is it a simple, beautiful concept, indeed?
Your analogy has broken down because you have switched positions of the victim
and invader. A better analogy would be the direct parallel between Armenians
of Karabakh and Native Americans. Now, if you wish, we can discuss the tenets
of might versus right and the policies of settler nations!
| 5 |
7,360 |
"Hate messages" rather than "facts"? Sorry, but your argument falls
flat on its face.
SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS
1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975
2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951
3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot,
Edward & Arnold, London, 1900
4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972
5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944
6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925
7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
The Century Co., New York, London, 1924
8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951
9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
Melbourne, 1977
10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922
11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
Macmillan & Co., London, 1915
12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928
13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967
17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923
18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
Cambridge, 1953
19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
H. Fertig, New York, 1966
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
Beirut, 1963
21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965
22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard
Jaeschke
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri:
Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S.,
Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian
Question in Turkey")
2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.
3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970.
T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:
a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari
T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik
a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar
British Archives:
a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files
India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.
a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031
French Archives
Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.
a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.
Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others
A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)
Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.
Russia
Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).
Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).
Serdar Argic | 5 |
3,177 |
I suppose for the same reason Jews call the Occupied Territory, Judea and
Sumaria. It's called propaganda and if you repeat lies often enough,
people start to believe it. | 5 |
2,962 |
"I have no question that our plan was correct?" Months to
get ready, unlimited funds, knowledge of a threatened mass suicide by fire,
and no fire trucks on hand? This is "extreme professionalism and care?"
I can understand the first screwed-up raid by the BATF. They
underestimated the opposition, which happens. But not this one.
The FBI had their first team in place, massive resources, ample time
for planning and bringing up any specialized equipment or people necessary.
They still botched it.
The FBI Director and the FBI SAC in overall charge should resign,
or be fired for incompetence.
I don't blame Reno or Clinton. They gave the FBI clear orders:
don't go in unless you can do it without casualties; if you can't do that,
wait it out. Those were reasonable orders. The FBI said they could
pull off a tactical solution, and they couldn't. | 5 |
351 |
Well, they never should have gotten into this situation.
Look at the history of this group. David Koresh has been arrested
?twice? by local police. Both times, he accepted the arrest warrant
and went peacefully. So, the feds decide to arrest him. How do they
choose to arrest a person with a record of peaceful obedience under
arrest? They throw a concussion grenades at his building.
In addition, we KNOW that we've been lied to. Initially, we were told
that they suspected him of molesting children and having several
wives. But these are NOT ATF offenses, were they? So they changed
their story, several times. And the original warrant is STILL sealed.
And we were told about the rockets and ammunition they had... but did
anyone notice any ammo exploding in the fire? They claimed that Koresh
hadn't left the compound in months... but people in town report seeing
him just a week before the raid.
How would I have handled it differently?
Well, first, I haven't seen any evidence that the BDs did anything
wrong. There's a sealed warrant, and a collection of stories which
keep changing about what they did. So I might not have done ANYTHING.
OK. Now, supposing that I know what the BDs are being arrested for.
Well, they've got a history of accepting arrests... so, I send
officers to the door with a warrant. Wearing bulletproof vests.
Covered from a distance by sharpshooters. Now, there's no good reason
to suspect that these people will do anything, right? Why didn't
anyone TRY serving a warrant?
OK. Going further. They refuse the warrant. It becomes necessary to
raid. You plan a raid. You hear an hour before that there was a leak,
and they know your coming. SO what do you do? Well, change your
plans, right? Nope... they go ahead with it anyone... including
sending in unprotected men to break into the place. It was idiotic. I
don't know what I would have ended up doing. But that original raid
should NEVER have happened.
The shit that came later should NEVER have happened.
The full record of the raid should be released to the public to let us
know what the hell really happened there.
The lies should NEVER have been told.
<MC> | 5 |
2,951 | # Recent studies have shown that the number of men who have
# engaged in homosexual activities in the last decade is 2.3%
# and the number of men who are exclusively homosexual is 1.1%.
# These figures are much less than those that came from earlier
# studies that showed that homosexuality among men is a lot
# higher.
#
# So, what can we deduce from these figures? Are there a lot
# less male homosexuals than there used to be or are men
# (perhaps women too) not as honest as they used to be about
# there sexuality? Presumably, the people that were polled in
You mean, in the 1940s, men and women were much more open about
their homosexuality than today? Want to try that one again?
# this survey were assured of their anonymnity so they should
# have answered the questions honestly I suppose. However, it
# could be that gays feel so repressed and denigrated by society
# that they didn't feel that they could be forthcoming about there
# sexuality in something like a survey. If this true then is it
# possible that there is a lot more gays out there than we are led
# to believe?
#
# Perhaps if Americans were more open about there sexuality---I think
# most Americans aren't---then we might discover that there are really
# quite a few more people out there who are orientated toward the same
# sex---men and women included. I'd venture a guess that there is a
# lot of people out there who have considered having a relationship
# with someone of the same sex at some point in there life. Maybe they
# didn't take their longings seriously, but this doesn't make these
# longings any less valid. Therefore, if Americans weren't so
# repressed about their sexuality in general---as I believe they may be
# ---then we'd see a lot more people "coming out of the closet".
You mean, ignore study after study, so that we can continue to
accept a study (Kinsey's) that is obviously wrong?
# As for myself, I'm a heterosexual and I've never considered having
# sex with another man. That's just the way I am...I could have just
# as easily of been gay I suppose. One of the big debates about
# homosexuality is whether or not it's a type of behavior that is
# learned or if one is just born that way. IMHO, the more likely
# explanation is that it's some combination of the two.
Based on what, besides your own warm fuzzy feelings?
# Here's something to ponder upon: have any of you gay-bashers out
# there ever considered that homosexuals probably deem their sexual
# orientation as being a state of affairs that is just as much an
# intrinsic and "natural" part of their life as heterosexuals do
# about their own sexuality? In other words, someone who is *truly*
Alcoholics share that feeling, until they hit bottom.
# gay may not be able to live any other way. Even if they date someone
# of the opposite sex or get married, in their *heart* they are still a
# homosexual. Likewise, if someone who is *truly* heterosexual forms
# a relationship with someone of the same sex, then they are *still*
# a heterosexual even though outward appearances may suggest otherwise.
#
# Scott Kennedy, Brewer and Patriot
Unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form
of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of
recent works suggest.
If homosexuals would stop using the government to impose their
morality on others (antidiscrimination laws) and leave our children
alone, I wouldn't care in the least what they did in private. But
until they get over the liberal notion that the proper role of
government is to tell peaceful people how to live, I have no choice
but to continue to point out that homosexuality is not an "alternative
lifestyle," but a sickness.
# Before: "David Koresh is a cheap thug who interprets
# the Bible through the barrel of a gun..." --ATF spokesman
# After: "[The ATF] is a cheap thug who interprets
# [the Constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --Me
Good signature!
| 5 |
1,856 | Really now. Why is this the pot calling the kettle black? I am stating
that a person who shows a continually biased opinion is close-minded and that
his opinion should be ignored. Clayton is stating that a group of at least
two million (1%) American citizens are evil vicious malicious child-molesters.
Here's a hypothetical question... If Clayton said something like "all
those niggers are really stupid." (Please don't be offended, I'm not racist
but merely using an example of Clayton's malign logic). And then said he
read a report that a lot of blacks in inner cities dropped out of school, I
bet he wouldn't have your support. Yet he can claim that all homosexuals are
dishonest, evil, lying child molesters without *PERSONALLY* having a single
homosexual friend or acquaintance and you'll sit there and support him. | 5 |
5,338 |
How quaint of you to point this out, and then to completely ignore
all of the blatant lies you've trotted out. The scenario and genocide
staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet
Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are
remarkable similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the
underdogs.
Remember, in article <2BAC262D.25249@news.service.uci.edu>, you have
blatantly lied and still have not corrected yourself.
I'll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits.
Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by
Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.)
ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES.
The spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former
Soviet Union gained new impetus yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of
hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh.
Survivors reported that Armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more
than 450 Azeris, many of them women and children, who were fleeing an
attack on their town. Hundreds, possibly thousands, were missing and
feared dead.
The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending
the women and children. They then turned their guns on the terrified
refugees. The few survivors later described what happened:" That's when
the real slaughter began," said Azer Hajiev, one of three soldiers to
survive. "The Armenians just shot and shot. And then they came in and
started carving up people with their bayonets and knives."
" They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through
Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed
in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.
The survivors said 2000 others, some of whom had fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their
wounds or the cold.
By late yesterday, 479 deaths had been registered at the morgue in
Agdam's morgue, and 29 bodies had been buried in the cemetery. Of the
seven corpses I saw awaiting burial, two were children and three were
women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
Agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror. Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep
stab wounds.
Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which has a population of 150,000, destroying several buildings and
killing one person.
Now wait, there is more.
IT'S INHUMANE TO IGNORE THIS VIOLENCE
The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre:
69 year old Hatin Nine telling:
-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''
72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:
- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
Turks, you must die.''
28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:
- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
my eyes.''
Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?
The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.
Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...
The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.
Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.
Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''
The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.
Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?
Serdar Argic | 5 |
2,444 |
If you look at the bottom of this article you will see that I have very
kindly dug up one of Yigal Arens previous postings (entirely without his
permission, I hope he doesn't mind) containing translations from Ha'arezt
detailing just such a case. Perhaps you think that Ha'arezt lies? Would
you like to provide me with an assurance that this practise *never* occurs?
Right, Arabs have been voting in Israel for how long? And in all that time
NOT ONE Arab EVER gained enough of a personal following to get his fellow
party members to put in a Ministry? This is about as likely as sprouting
wings and flying to Rio. What basis do you have for explaining this odd
failure? You seem very confident that you are right, exactly how do you
know, why are you sure?
Exactly what basis do you have for saying this when the Labour party
has never put an Arab into a Cabinet post and insists its coalition
members do the same? Why and on what basis are you reassuring me in
the face of 50 years of discriminatory practise?
Hey what?? As I said even when their party puts them up they get knocked
back. It surely couldn't be because they are Arabs is it?
Well yes, but Security is the reason most often given by people who
want to make excuses. I merely thought it would crop up and so
pre-empted it.
Start of Article (All commets in [*....*] are mine not Dr. Arens)
[Comments in square brackets are mine - Yigal]
Racism in the Knesset
---------------------
Coalition requirements on one hand, and the presence of progressive MKs
from _Meretz_ in the coalition on the other, have compelled Rabin and
his friends to change, to some extent, their attitude towards the Arab
public and their representatives in the Knesset. Although he did refuse
to view them as partners, taking part in the coalition and joining the
government, he did agree to meet with them and to give them a document
of intentions which included a commitment to "work towards a decrease in
the discrimination between Jewish and Arab citizens". [Decrease WHAT?!?!
But posters have told us time and again that such discrimination does
not exist *at* *all*! Is Rabin, too, a closet self-hater??? - Yigal].
However, racism has not disappeared. When the Knesset sat to consider
who would staff its various committees, a request was made to put an MK
from Hadash [the Communist party, one of the "Arab" parties - Yigal] on
the State Comptroller's Committee. And oh, did that ever stir up a
storm -- including in the ranks of Labor -- since many Knesset members
find it unthinkable that an Arab MK sit on one of the important house
committees. "Security secrets" are liable to fall into their hands...
This attitude -- which until recently had not even aroused criticism,
being so natural and so deeply-embossed upon people's hearts -- holds
that there are Knesset members who, despite having been elected by tens
of thousands of votes, are not entitled to be full partners in the body
which represents the people of Israel. We are not speaking here of
political discrimination -- which would be bad enough in itself -- but
of racial discrimination. The proof: one of the compromises proposed
was that MK Mahamid [an Arab - Yigal] should be replaced by Tamar
Gojanski [a Jew - Yigal] from the same party. It was not the member's
party which was considered unfit, but his race...
[* Here is a documented case in a respected Israeli newspaper. *]
It is worth noting that for the first time since the state's founding, a
public debate has arisen on this subject, as witness the following
article:
A TEST OF SELF-CONFIDENCE
By Gid'on Levi, Ha'aretz, July 26, 1992
Revelations of discrimination against Arabs have become such an integral
part of our daily routine that there is not much effort made to deal
with them. [Do you hear that, -----? Please contact this Levi fellow
and explain to him how little he knows about Israel. Please! - Yigal].
Except that sometimes the demon bursts out from behind the government's
window dressing, and then the phenomenon is seven times more serious.
Last week provided two more such examples: the Israeli Knesset is
finding it very difficult to allow Arab representation on its more
important committees; and Israel Television is finding it no less
difficult to give a platform to Arabs from the territories. Seemingly
two entirely different matters, but in fact they are one and the same.
The 13th Knesset proved last week that, even though one third of its
members are new faces, it has not renewed its own face at all, at least
on one issue. Parliamentary traditions may be modernized and
parliamentary traditions may become obsolete, and only one tradition
endures forever: no Arab shall set foot in the more important committees
of the house. There has never been and never will be an Arab MK on the
External Affairs and Defense Committee or on the Finance Committee.
Worlds have been overturned over the question of whether or not "to
give" Arabs, for the first time, a place on the State Comptroller's
Committee.
The arguments are old and well-known: In all three of the above
committees innumerable secrets are revealed -- and woe unto us if an
Arab should hear them. One must not make light of such arguments, but
their significance should also not be exaggerated. Every Arab MK is not
spending all his time waiting for the opportune moment to hand over
information from the Knesset committee room to Black Panther
headquarters in Jenin; and not all the aforementioned committees are
continually occupied in the discussion of top-secret matters, which
could safely be revealed, for example, to MKs supportive of the Jewish
Underground, but not to an Arab MK from the Likud, Labor, or even from
Hadash.
The Arabs themselves would probably forego membership in the Subcommittee
on Secret Service Matters, but what would happen, one may ask, if MK
Nawaf Masalha were to hear, God forbid, a review of the Foreign Minister
in an open meeting of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, or even
a review of the Army Chief of Staff which, in any case, are regularly
leaked to the next edition of the news. And what would happen if MK
Hashem Mahamid were to report on what he had seen with his own eyes at
al-Najah?
Their non-participation [in important committees] and that of their
colleagues, creates an intolerable situation, where Arab members of the
elected house have only semi-positions. They are good enough for
addressing plenary sessions, and for voting for or against the
government and participating in the deliberations of the Immigration and
Absorption Committee. But they must not, for example, participate in
the process of formulating the state budget in the Finance Committee or
in the allocation of resources to local authorities. In any case, they
have little part in that.
Labor's dependence on the support of the Arab parties has brought about
some improvement: MK Hashem Mahamid, will, it seems, participate in the
State Comptroller's Committee. Earlier, there had been a ridiculous
attempt made to dictate to Hadash who their representative should be,
and thus to prevent the Arab from entering this dubious holy-of-holies,
but it soon became clear that there was no legal or constitutional
backing for such a step.
But not to worry: even now the Jewish mind is contriving devices. The
new Committee Chair, Roni Milo, has already announced that he will set up
subcommittees aplenty for his committee. Thus he will decide where it
is permissible for Mahamid to participate and where not. A solution
such as this could, by the way, also have been adopted for the rest of
the committees, thereby completely eliminating the fear of state secrets
being leaked to the enemy and removing the stain of discrimination from
the Knesset.
[. . .]
End Article
Do you accept that as documentation?
Joseph Askew
| 5 |
6,309 |
Good - now let's look at those sections. They'll prove my point.
Note that this doesn't affect all concealed carry. (Look after the
word "except".) It always helps to read the law before commenting on
it.
Would a prudent storekeeper carry concealed? How about someone at
home? Note that both are legal, and a lot of "common" people qualify
for one or the other.
-andy | 5 |
3,825 |
Any state that the CIA does not control is called "state that is linked
to terrorism/militants/fundamentalists etc.."
Meanwhile Even Egyptian "experts" who hate The Islamic movement admit
that what is happening in Egypt is spontaneous and most of the time a
reaction to what the government does.
...
Can anybody see any contradiction between the above and the first
paragraph?
Does anybody know what the UPI original article's title was? | 5 |
6,452 |
Finally, someone seems to be making sense in this thread. | 5 |
5,166 |
Kaufman,
I think we have a problem in this newsgroup: every time somebody puts
down serious questions on Israel, the first response would be "what about
the Arab countries?" ...
Most of the Arab countries governments are ruling their people with Iron
fist policy and Dark Ages democracy (if exists). Ironically, these are
the countries that the "West" would like to deal with and would wage
massive wars to protect them and their resources.
For Israel the situation is different, Israel claims it is a
democracy -- I would call it selective democracy, that abides by Western
democratic standards. If Israel is saying that then
it has to be compared to Western standards. If this comparison is the
advertized propaganda from Israel, then we have to look at seriously at
question that can and should be asked regarding any country advertizing
this standard.
That is very incorrect, I see you have been brain-washed well, I would
recommend non-Zionist history books).
Please, speak for yourself. Do not imagine that "everyone" subscribes to
your beliefs, you would be lucky if you believe them yourself.
What is this, you trying to destroy the credibility of the author, why?
all of this because he asked some serious question. These tactics of
destroying the credibility of a person beacuse you do not agree with
her/him is old and does not work anymore, go tell your superiors
(AIPAC?) to change their guide books.
Salam,
Eyad Nuweiri
Software Engineer
Unify Corp.
*** Disclaimer: This is my personal views, not of my employer ***
| 5 |
2,430 | Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there.
Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have
objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no
"alternative choice".
| 5 |
2,514 |
Repeat a lie often enough and people will start to believe it, eh?
The Hamas terrorists were given the opportunity to appeal. They've
chosen not to, obviously because they get better propaganda mileage
out of refusing.
Israel also agreed that they could return immediately, provided they
agreed to stop killing Jews. Their refusal speaks for itself.
| 5 |
7,000 | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which is a helluva lot more than any Republican attorney general ever did!
BTW, why all the crocodile tears over wasting a few religious nuts, who
wanted to be wasted anyway? We just got back from wasting a few hundred
thousand religious nuts over in the Middle East, and everybody cheered!! | 5 |
3,949 |
Perhaps you've been under a rock since, say, the turn of the century. How
in the #$^& is one man supposed to review every single freaking
governmental action, every day? That's why we have an executive branch. HE
reviewed the plan and said "go," but he wasn't the architect and he wasn't
there, bullhorn in hand, implementing it. Yes, he was responsible in the
sense that he was briefed. So what! Shit happens. That sounds like a
callous way to dismiss the deaths of 90+ people, but I can't understand why
people get so bent about the accidental death/suicide (which is it? could
take months...) of some total fucking sociopath/child molester and his
crazed followers while opposing U.S. intervention in Bosnia. Just like
Billy boy said. I think some of you people have too much time on your
hands, and screwed up priorities.
Just my HO... | 5 |
4,712 |
Koresh & some of his followers were tried and found *innocent* of
all charges following that shootout. Were you unaware of this or
did you purposly leave out this fact?
| 5 |
3,613 |
Saying "hopefully the effect of policy X will be Y" is *much* different
from saying "hopefully if there is any effect of policy X it will be Y."
Here you've made both statements.
If the former describes a reasonably-likely outcome of policy X, then
perhaps policy X is worthy of consideration - but the latter statement
is not something to base policy decisions on!
According to groups like the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence (formerly
the National Coalition to Ban Handguns - interesting name change, don't you
think?) who include murder and suicide by firearms in the "leading causes of
unintentional death) figures but *don't* include murder and suicide by other
means as causes of unintentional death. Can't you see past the bullshit?
Certainly accidental deaths by any cause are serious things - but the
anti-gun groups insist over and over again that accidental death by
firearms is a *stastically serious problem*, and even if you don't use
these deaths as a justification for gun control, these groups do. I'm
sorry if I jumped to conclusions about your reason for mentioning
accidental deaths due to firearms being something that warranted concern,
but in light of your statement that you are a staunch supporter of gun
control measures, I think the conclusion was a reasonable one.
The fact remains that tragic though individual accidental gun deaths may
be, they are *not* a serious problem statistically speaking.
Sorry if it wasn't clear to me. I thought you were waffling on your view
of buyback programs with the talk of symbolic offerings and hopefully
preventing accidents and heat-of-passion shootings. I have to disagree on
all these counts; I can't understand how a buying guns from people who
aren't intending to misuse them (obviously those who want to use guns to
commit crimes aren't going to turn them in) could be construed as a
positive way for police to respond to "interpersonal violence."
What, the people who publish figures saying that as many children commit
suicide by HANDGUNS ALONE each year as the FBI says commit suicide by ALL
METHODS per year? Who do you think I should believe? The people who call
everyone up to age 24 "children" when they're screaming about the "carnage
of our nation's children" being caused by handguns?
Ah, yes, the agency that considers accidental shootings of children to be
such a statistical problem that a stated objective in the Healthy People
2000 document is to "enact laws in 50 states requiring manufacturers of
handguns to make the handguns more difficult to fire, minimizing the
likelihood of accidental or intentional dscharge by children?" The
agency that funded the "study" of DC which pronounced that the DC gun ban
had saved X lives (yes, they actually gave us a number) on the basis of
a look at the *number* of shootings rather than the *rate* of shootings?
It wasn't their fault that the population of DC dropped in their "post law"
period...
Okay, I'll concede I no longer have the numbers I once read on these. I'll
retract my dispute of your numbers. However, I would be greatly interested
in seeing how CPHV and CDC came up with these numbers.
What's this got to do with anything? Hell, when *I* was in elementary
school I came home to an empty house with guns in it. Why is this a
problem? I didn't touch the guns - I had been taught not to. I had also
been taught not to mess with the gasoline in the garage, the fuse box, the
car, the knives, the oven, and the tools. The problem is not the guns,
it's the parents!!!
And what are these states doing with the kids they find with guns?
NOTHING. No criminal prosecution, no expulsion, in most cases not even
suspension. They take the gun, slap the kids on the wrist, say "ain't it
awful," and go on as if everything's back to normal. What's wrong with
this picture?
I don't think Koresh was the Messiah, either... but isn't it obvious that
if he believed the forces of evil were come to destroy him, then he
believed the children were much safer inside the compound? I didn't say
he was sane... just that he behaved in a pretty rational manner given what
he thought was going on. He thought he had them in the one place where
harm *wouldn't* come to them.
Let's see *you* try to find the exits, unbarricade them, and flee a fire
when you've been kept awake for most of 50 days by loudspeakers and subjected
to six hours of tanks knocking in your walls and tear gas assault. | 5 |
4,728 |
Anybody has any information about the number of the people have been killed
by Israel during these 44 HAPPY YEAR? | 5 |
2,875 | I'd appreciate any help anyone could give me on these two questions:
The Brady Bill was in the news throughout 1992 but what actually happened to
it in Congress? Did Bush veto it? If so, when?
Also, the state of Virginia, I believe, just passed a gun control bill on
Febrauary 25 of this year. I think it limits gun purchases to one a month -
is this correct? What was the bill number? | 5 |
3,910 |
>They used a tank to knock a hole in the wall, and they released
>non-toxic, non-flammable tear gas into the building.
Non-toxic tear gas?!? Do you know what tear gas is?
I do: once upon a time I happened to be in a room when someone threw
a tear-gas grenade in (that was supposed to be a joke:). The sensation
was incredible: I felt my eyes and nostrils were being torn apart.
I remember us - a bunch of young men in our early 20's - running out
like a herd of wild animals, knocking down the door and jumping
out of the windows (thank G-d we were on the first floor).
I can't imagine this kind of stuff being used against children.
For them, the worst effect might not be the physical effects so much
as the psychological effect of being incapacitated without fully
understanding the cause. Many years ago, I was accidentally exposed
to a tiny dose of tear gas. (It was in Athens, on the street leading
to the American Embassy; there'd been a march that had been broken up
with tear-gas; I must have stumbled into a remaining patch of gas the
next day.) Aside from the tears, feeling sick to my stomach, etc.,
the really horrible psychological effect was that of suddenly falling
to pieces and not knowing why it had happened---I was horrified and
wondered what disease or other health problem I had. (I didn't find
out about the march and the tear-gas till hours later.) I can imagine
how horribly disorienting this might be to very young children:
suddenly crying uncontrollably and feeling sick, weak, and out of
control of your body---and not knowing the cause.
``This gives us a chance to try the Gas of Peace.'' Yeah, right.
| 5 |
7,309 |
Ah - Palestine and the Arab Israeli conflict. Sounds interesting.
This is misleading. I supposed Charles D. Smith characterizes the bombing
of the King David Hotel as a civilian installation too. Any installation
attacked by Etzel was linked to some sort of official function of the
Mandatory government.
What kind of CIVILIANS? I assume Charles D. Smith means completely innocent
people who were intentionally targeted, right? Please provide examples.
Nice strawman. In _The Revolt_ Begin does state that the *myth* of a massacre
at Deir Yassin may have had the effect of scaring some Arabs into fleeing.
However, nowhere does he claim that this was the result of any specific policy
of the Etzel. Thus, if it did happen, it was not so intended. I think Arab
calls for Palestinians to leave and fear of a war started by Arab hands had
a greater effecton Arab migration than Deir Yassin.
In fact these jewish TERRORIST groups managed
Really. Nice use of caps. I like it. Very effective. Actually, according to
many sources, including American diplomatic officials, the greatest encouragment
for Arabs to leave their villages came from Arab leaders.
| 5 |
1,730 | The Colorado Daily recently reprinted the Wall Street Journal's article
on Paxton Quigley, including the nefarious little paragraph the Journal
tacked onto the end. After recieving much assistance from various T.P.G.
type folks, I wrote a letter to the editor criticizing this last paragraph,
and surprise, surprise, surprise, they published it. The text follows.
The Colorado Daily, btw, is the University of Colorado (Boulder) student
(I think) newspaper... not exactly a big coup, but every little bit, i guess...
(The title was the only thing they changed/added)
"Gun Stats"
The Daily recently reprinted an article from the
Wall Street Journal, primarily concerned with Paxton
Quigley, author of "Armed and Female." The article,
in turn, cites a misleading statistic that was originally
reported in the New England Journal of Medicine. The
article states, "A study... found that a gun in the home
was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner,
spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder." This
is an often-quoted statistic, and it is misleading for sev-
eral reasons, outlined below:
The study gives the impression that, if you own a
gun, the likelihood that you will successfully use it to
defend yourself is less than that of the gun being turned
against you. The study, however, fails to take into
account cases where a law-abiding citizen uses a gun
to thwart a crime, without actually killing the perpe-
trator.
The study actually refers to 'acquaintances' rather
than 'friend'. This would include the friendly neigh-
borhood thug who shows up like clockwork, every
month, the second your grandmother cashes her social
security check. Possibly an acquaintance, but hardly a
friend.
The NEJM study is based on the immediate dis-
position of cases and fails to take into account cases
originally filed as homicides that were later ruled to be
self-defense. Especially considering the small sample
size (396), taking these events into account has a sub-
stantial effect on the 43:1 ratio quoted.
Criminologist Gary Kleck gives us a slightly dif-
erent statistic: a gun is 33 times more likely to be
used, successfully, by a private citizen against an
aggressor than it is to kill anyone at all. Further, per-
sons defending themselves from aggression by using a
gun fare better than those who resist vicimization by
some other means, or who offer no resistance at all.
Statistics available from the FBI and other agencies
also show that a gun is 245 times more likely to be
used by a non-criminal to defend against criminal threat
than to be used to commit criminal homicide, 535 times
more likely to be used to defend against a criminal
threat than to accidentally kill anybody, and 50 times
more likely to defend against criminal threat than to be
used to commit suicide.
It is well to keep in mind that nearly anything can
be proved by uncritical quotation of statistics. One has
to consider carefully what questions were asked by
those gathering the data before one can draw an accu-
rate conclusion from them.
D.F. Taylor
CU Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry
--
Spooksmoke: Revolution, Assasination, Thorium, Cobalt-60, Clintin, CIA, NSA, SHC
DoD #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu
Send me something even YOU can't read...
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.2 | 5 |
4,255 |
Medical school ? Like your fellow Austrian Dr. Mengele ??
Josh | 5 |
1,634 |
>
> Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
> taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
> wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
> it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
> hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.
>
> Harry.
Actually, You're wrong as well. The KKK is allowed to
march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected
(Actually I believe the ACLU won a case for them last year).
Morality should not be legilated in a free country like
the U.S.
Yes. That seems to be the problem. Even Germany now has laws for its
military where soldiers are *required* to disobey orders if they
believe the orders are morally incorrect.
Naziism is prohibited in Canada, Germany (others?). How pray tell is
Canda any less free than the US?
I'll post something on TJ and Uva under Uva for those
Hoos bashers. | 5 |
3,611 | I really don't know how you can possibly maintain this hypocritical
stance.
On the one hand, you imply that there is a conspiracy of Arab-Americans
that warrants the illegal gathering of information on them (ie. auto license/
registration information in California) and other forms of "monitoring", including
blatant attempts by paid ADL agents to discredit an American-Arab
organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda. Furthermore,
you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing
to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.
On the other hand, you publish this excerpt, which seems to rail
against notions of a racial (Jewish, in this case) conspiracy and
stereotypes.
If you really aren't the hypocrite you appear to be, please explain
yourself.
| 5 |
4,324 |
This was reported in Canadian papers Thursday, 22 April - I _think_ the
source was UPI, but don't recall for certain.
I understand that at least two goverment investigations have been ordered,
so we may learn more during their hearings.
Tough call without more investigation, but if the thermal imaging story
holds up, I think the government will be more credable... of course,
paranoia fans won't believe their results anyway, will they?
Hear, hear! I'd also like to see the autopsy reports confirm news reports
that multiple victims were found shot (in the head), and in positions
inconsistent with fire victims. It is simply too early to draw conclusions
either way about this nasty incident, but I tend to believe the government
side.
| 5 |
7,015 | Bill Coleman writes...
(responding to a discussion about a mosque in Jerusalem allegedly
having been destroyed by Israel)
BC> In today's Jerusalem Post Magazine there is a feature story about the
BC> ongoing restoration of synagogues in the Jewish Quarter. The author,
BC> Leah Abramowitz, writes that there were FIFTY-SEVEN synagogues in the
BC> quarter in 1948, ALL of which were destroyed, some, she says, used as
BC> donkey stables. The building shells, that is.
BC>
BC> I still find it really, really hard to understand why the demolition
BC> of the buildings in front of the Kotel continues to evoke more outrage
BC> than this. Everything is so much cheaper when it happens to the Jews.
BC>
BC> Why?
The double standard of human behavior regarding the Jews must
be manitained.
A perfect example is the outcry over the temporary removal of
400 men who advocated murdering Jews and destroying the State
of Israel, compared to the deafening silence over the abusive
treatment of Jews in Arab countries during the past 50 years.
Compare the tacit appoval that the world gives to Muslims who
randomly murder Jewish civilians to the righteous indignation
expressed if people in the occupied territories are kept from
working in Israel in an effort to reduce these random murders
from occuring, while everyone knows that no country is at all
required to accept foreign workers, except Israel, of course.
Jewish blood has always been cheap. The non-Jewish world ha
never regarded any form of Jewish suffering important, except
when the Jews were the models of the powerless victim holding
the high moral ground, as it had been just after World War 2.
However, as soon as the Jewish people started to take care of
themselves, the ancient hatred of Jews was unleashed again.
I doubt if the non-Jewish world is even capable of having any
compassion towards Jews as anti-semitism is so ancient and so
basic to both Christianity and Islam.
Golda Meir said that there would be peace when the Arabs love
their own children more than they hate the Jews. And while I
know that there are more Arab parents who love their children
than those who would send their children out into the streets
to throw rocks at men trained to defend themselves with guns,
the world is so obsessed by a hatred of Jews trying to defend
themselves that they have yet to even question the actions of
those parents who not simply allow their children to do this,
but encourage them to throw themselves into harm's way. Even
Arab children are expendable, if their tragic deaths are used
in the neverending propoganda battle to blame Israel, and the
Jews, for any misfortune befalling Arabs in the middle east.
| 5 |
6,853 |
Then post what the press has said, not what you wished they said.
The Medical Examiner has refuted the FBI "facts" and if you don't
believe someone who has a LOT more reason to be impartial then
what do you have to say for yourself.
I was willing to grant this for sake or argument until I read the
following.
The FACTS as reported by the press and impartial government
sources support ME.
There is NO testimony, at the press conference, the FBI said they
had NO testimony, the SURVIVORS as reported by CNN and Newsday
wire service said that ALL the survivors gave consistent stories
refuting the FBI. They were lighting and heating with kerosine.
Are you trying to PROVE you're an idiot.
Then open your eyes and ears, at least 3 of those 4 sources have
reported your full of shit.
| 5 |
4,516 |
If he gives you the same story explaining the presence of several
synagogues in the "Moslem Quarter", then the story becomes suspect...
In reality, the Old City was not as neighborhooded in the past as it
became after 1948. In pre-Israel Jerusalem, there were many Jews in
what is now called the Moslem Quarter. There are postal and telephone
directories from that time to prove it. It's really rather
interesting to hear Arabs there claim that a house or store has been
in the family for centuries even when there are clear photos and
documents that show a Jewish-owned business at the same location just
a few decades ago.
| 5 |
2,509 | Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!ames!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!cunyvm!jcehc
Organization: City University of New York
Date: Wednesday, 21 Apr 1993 14:17:47 EDT
From: <JCEHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Message-ID: <93111.141747JCEHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Should Anybody be Permitted to Own a .50 BMG rifle?
Lines: 26
For the moment, forget about BATF incompetence or FBI hubris. Did
anybody catch Rep. Charles Shumer on the news last night holding up
a .50 BMG cartridge and rhetorically asking if anybody should be allowed
to own one of these. (I presume he meant the rifle for which it is chambered
and not the cartridge which you can get for a buck.)
So what's your guess for the upcoming anti-gun agenda:
1. A ban on heavy caliber rifles. (read .50 BMG)
2. A ban on "sniper rifles"
3. A ban on "stockpiling" guns and ammunition.
BTW: Shumer is perhaps the most misinformed congressman I have seen on
the news. I wonder how he finds the floor in the morning.
-------
MICHAEL F. GORDON
JCEHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
"Vote as you shot." (19th Cent Republican campaign slogan )
Shumer is not mis-informed, he knows full well what he is doing.
If you look at his other votes, and positions as an agent of redistribution
of wealth & property in this country, to him guns and personal freedom
are incompatible with his obvious world-view. They are a threat to the
'order' he would impose.
R
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It [collectivism vs individualism] is an ancient conflict. Men have come
close to the truth, but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell
after another. Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
-- Ayn Rand : 'Roark's speech from the _Fountainhead_'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't speak for my company. We hire the 'Politically Correct' to do that. | 5 |
Subsets and Splits
No community queries yet
The top public SQL queries from the community will appear here once available.